Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Friday Night Special: Shocking New Delphi Killer Conversations Revealed

Episode Date: August 23, 2025

The jury took two minutes from entering the courtroom to announce the verdict: Richard Allen, guilty on all charges. Allen was convicted of felony murder for Abby Williams and Libby German, as well as for knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull maintained order in the courtroom, where there were no outbursts, but outside on the streets of Delphi, shouts of "Guilty on all charges" echoed.  The jury, composed of seven women and five men, heard 17 days of testimony, including dozens of witnesses, disturbing jailhouse videos of Richard Allen, and photos of Abby and Libby as they were found at the crime scene. They deliberated for 19 hours over parts of four days to reach a unanimous verdict. Richard Allen was found guilty of four counts: two counts of felony murder and two counts of knowingly and intentionally killing Abby Williams and Libby German. Delphi residents tell reporters that they are still in shock after learning that local pharmacy tech Richard Allen has been charged in the 2017 murder of teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Photos of Allen in a local bar with the police sketch of the murder suspect posted on the wall behind him have surfaced. We have also learned that while at work, Allen developed photos of the girls, to be used at their funeral, for the families at no charge.  Police say Allen came forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation, but nothing at that time linked him to the crime.  Now a new book details admissions Allen made to his mother.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: David Yoder - Richard Allen's former neighbor   Fran Longwell - Former Deputy State’s Attorney (Calvert County, MD), Former Assistant State’s Attorney (Prince George’s County, MD) specializing in child abuse, sex offenses and homicides Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark" Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; @ColdCaseTips  Dr. Todd M. Barr - Board-Certified Anatomic/Clinical/Forensic Pathologist (Ohio), Featured in "Thin Places: Essays From In Between" by Jordan Kisner; Twitter: @ToddBarrME Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis); Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace, and it's Friday night. You know what that means? I've got a Friday night special for you. Delphi Killer Richard Allen. The evidence just keeps piling up. We're learning things now. We didn't hear at trial. Now, what will all the haters say? All the trolls online that said, the jury got it wrong. The judge was wrong.

The prosecutors were wrong. The victims' families, oh, they were wrong. Susan Hendricks, who covered the case, she was wrong. I'm wrong. Everybody's wrong. And Richard Allen is right. Not so quick. Tonight, we are learning about chilling comments.

Richard Allen made after Liberty and Abby were killed, murdered, and before he was arrested, to an individual, a witness that you would think would do anything to cover for Richard Allen, her own son. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Convicted Delphi double killer, Richard Allen, local pharmacy tech, makes chilling statements to his own mother after he murders Libby and Abby and before, long before he is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby and Libby, didn't come home from the local hiking trail, Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find the girls. then there were nightmares came true. The girls' bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods

the next day. But now we learn one person, a 45-year-old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father, a son, was making really weird comments about the murders and trying to talk his own relatives out of joining the searches. I didn't know that at trial. This is all new. And we're learning it all from a brand new book, Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi murders, and the dark side of the American heartland. What did Richard Allen say to his mother after the murders and long before he was arrested? A few days after Libby and Abby were murdered. Janice Allen, Richard Allen's mother, got a very odd call from her son, Richard Allen. And out of the blue, sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're going to pin this

on me. Why would he say that right after the murders? He wasn't even a suspect. He told his mother that he had been on the trails the day the girls were murdered and had been smoking a cigarette. And he came up with this elaborate theory that investigators would find the cigarette butt, get his DNA off it, and use that to tie him to the crime scene. Now, his mother later told this to police, and she says she found it very odd, but she kept it to herself for years. How did we get here? The killer was right under everybody's nose, literally in the same. center of town. First of all, take a listen to our friends at WTHR. We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed pharmacy tech at this CVS here in Delphi, but many continue to ask and wonder how a man

now charged with two counts of murder managed to stay under the radar. In a town of about 3,000 people, those who live in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams and Libby German. I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it's a little eerie. And tense. In downtown Delphi on the square, businesses like the office tavern put up a new sign on their door reading, no media allowed. They weren't the only ones. Country hair also had a sign.

Off-camera, one business owner told 13 news the community is still in shock. Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their girls, a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one released affidavit, there were copious amounts of blood at the scene. These two little girls, Libby and Abbey, had their throats slit. They are grappling with the reality that the killer was right under their nose. Take a listen to Fox 59. They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was living amongst them the whole time. I don't know the gentleman personally at all, you know.

So I've probably seen him, but, you know, it's a small county, you know, but definitely I don't know him. One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Alan, who worked at a local CVS, had printed off pictures for the girls' funeral, leaving the family to wonder, how did nobody know? When the family says we didn't know him, that's like you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy at McDonald's that gives you a large coffee with two creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for being

with us as we are struggling with the reality that a double killer, according to police, was right there saying, good morning. How can I help you every single day to practically everybody in town? To Cheryl McCollum joining me, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, isn't the CVS right in the middle of town? Right in the middle of town. If you take the CVS and make it the center of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school, you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge, everywhere is centered from downtown. Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins were so sick when they were little, we were in there all the time. I know them, their families,

through pictures, everybody that works there, you get to know your pharmacist. and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town. Join me right now, Max Lewis with Fox 59. You can find him on Insta at Max Lewis TV. Max, thank you for being with us. I guess the town is stunned right now because in one picture he's at a bar. What was it? J&H, C&S, Bar and Grill.

He's sitting right there living it up and right behind him on the wall. is his composite. Yeah, I mean, people were just, when we heard about it, we saw this picture, we saw who he was, people were stunned. Five and a half years, they've been investigating this, and this guy has been living amongst them the whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions or printing off photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think that's sort of what the family was saying there, and what a whole lot of people

have told me is, really, nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch and thought maybe it was him or anything like that. I mean, it was just sort of really shocking. Right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what I think, and this is from having handled cases where the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah, we all looked at the possibility. It was a transient, but Cheryl McCollum, you and I agreed on day one. This was no transient, right?

Day one, you and I said it, and we never wavered from it. We even said he would be within five miles. And then once I got to Delphi and we saw where the bridge was, I mean, that to me, I was like, he's even closer than I think. And remember the guy, the catfisher, was Kegan Klein. Gosh, I'm not to know, now I know their names by heart. Kagan Klein was a perv, a pasty-looking dude, middle-age, I think he is anyway, using a screenshot Anthony's shots of a Justin Bieber looking like trying to lure. young girls and he was talked to them just a day or two before and maybe the day of but he lives like 30 60 miles away and you and I thought yeah that's tempting it's really tempting but the distance

didn't fit to us because who would know to go to that dirt road to that particular trail to that trestle bridge and then down to a bottleneck take force the girls down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them. Had to be a local. It had to be a local with intimate knowledge because even where they cross the creek, that's where the creek was shallow. Other parts of it are waist deep. This person knew. Hold on. Wait a minute. I'm trying to drink in what you're saying parts of the creek. Shallow other parts waist deep and that factored into it. It absolutely did. Why are you saying that? Because again, this person would have to know that. If you and I just were visiting that area, we wouldn't know where to cross that creek. And,

And again, waist high, chest high in some places if it's been raining, but he knew right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep. And Max Lewis, Fox 59, joining us, he's been all over this. Max Lewis, the thing is, the killer would know, and you've been to that Trousel Bridge a million times, the killer would have to know that there were other people that were in that, I'm going to call it apart, but it's more like a hiking area. And where he killed them, other people would not be able to see what was going on, even though they could be walking around in the hiking area.

Yeah, and, you know, yeah, this is a very well-traveled area. So, I mean, it's hard to believe that nobody would have seen them. That may be where the sort of, you remember that, that chilling audio recording, the down the hill, you know, we don't necessarily know, you know, if he is the bridge guy per se, you know, that's still, they're holding everything close to the best at this point. Okay, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the train. Max Lewis, let's follow that theory to its logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers, that one guy lured them down, the so-called bridge guy, and

then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find that hard to believe. My mind is still open, but is that what you're suggesting? Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that we are getting at this point, because they... From who? Read it? No, no, we're getting that from the way they're handling this. They steal those documents. They say, this investigation is ongoing. What more do they need? If they have their guide, they've made an arrest,

they've filed a probable cause affidavit. What more do they need? Cheryl McComb, straight it out, woman. There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This investigation does not end and arrest in a great world. This is where it starts. Yeah, you know, you really think, I'm not picking on you, Max Lewis.

You're the messenger, okay? But do you really think this guy went from zero to 120 MPH in one day? Because I don't. Even with a sports car, it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not buying it. I think what Cheryl McCollum just said is right. I think law enforcement are looking for other young girl victims. Were they sex assaulted?

were they threatened, did they feel threatened, and for people that may have helped him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy? Take a listen now to this. Before moving to Delphi, he lived in this home with his wife and daughter, according to neighbors. David Yoder lived across the street, but has known Allen since he was born and grew up with his dad. Yeah, I mean, I would have never thought living across the road from him. Maybe there was anything. That's where I over sent my kids to if there'd have been any trouble. But after hearing Allen was arrested in charge with killing Abby Williams and Libby German, he's now questioning if he really knew him.

It's just hard to believe it's a heck of a nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy, always has been. Well, you know what? They said that about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he had even been a cop. I believe it was in Oxford, California. They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which makes me suspicious at the get-go.

Who wants to catch dogs? put him to death. Not me. BTK. Buying Torture Kilt. Dennis Raider. Deacon at the church, freak. Complete total freak. After he would murder people in his community on his dog catching route, he would then redress them and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too. And of course, I'm just going to go out on a limb, Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was a cable TV, entertainment. program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent. He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacey and Connor. And you can throw all the hate at me you want to. But that is the truth. I was in the

trial. Were you? Bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody is paid to create to convince you to get ratings, you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm going to throw Scott Peterson in there too. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace chilling comments Come to light comments made by double killer Richard Allen I wonder what all the trolls are going to have to say about this why would Richard Allen

after the girls are murdered and long before he's arrested say they're going to pin this on me they're going to pin this on me I had a cigarette out there on the trail I was there that day why would you say all that to your mom? The mom who, by the way, kept it to herself for years, but when her son was arrested, she recalled the strange conversation. She actually told police. We also learn that that conversation it stuck in her mind to the point that years later she brought it up. Now, many would argue that's circumstantial evidence, and that's not enough for a conviction. But it's just more brick in the wall.

What more do we know about the murders? David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as a child and was his neighbor for years and years. And you just heard him say to Max, if my children are in trouble, I tell him to run over there. That's how much he trusts. Trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder, thank you for being with us. Hello. Okay, tell me David Yoder.

Don't leave anything out. what do you recall growing up with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl named Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street. They had four children. One was the same age of each of us. And it was wonderful. Still friends after all that time.

She says the first time she met me, I came to her door, unannounced or uninvited. They opened the door and I said, may I please have a cookie? That's how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen. Well, he was a good kid growing up. I mean, never in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad is a friend of mine.

He, there's just good people, all around good people. They're very smart people. His grandpa was a principal of my grade school and a teacher. that there's just a good family all around good family and and it's a shock to think it Rick could do something like this but it's just it's just a shock like I said I would have sent my kids over there to a safe house over to him if I had to you know to go there if there's any problems and I wasn't home or something well I feel the same way about Connie Joy Jones if somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones

Jones, committed a double murder, much less on children. I'd say, no way. Uh-uh. I'd go to court and go under oath and talk about what a great person she was and is. And has been alone with my children, and I would have her be alone with them again. I know what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying a good guy.

What do you mean by that? He never once shoplifted, he never sped, he never sped, he never, he never, Take a pack of gum from the store, nothing? He always spoke. It was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me. I mean, I'm older than he is several years. He was, I was better friends with his dad than him, but I wouldn't go growing up. How much older are you than Richard Allen?

I'm 68. And Alan is 50, right? Okay, 18 years. So, somewhere in there. When you say a good guy, how did he do in? school, did he play a sport? Not so much an athlete, no. What did he do? I don't know, just went to school. I wasn't with him in school. His dad, I was. Is that who you were talking about? No, I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested in his parents. Richard, I was out of

school when Richard went to school. I mean, I was 18 years old when he was. He was young enough to be my kid. And never a bit of trouble when he was growing up. That I knew of, no. Does he have brothers and sisters? He's got one sister. Where does she live? I don't know. I lost track of her a long time ago. I mean, and I have Richard, too. He moved away from here. I just kind of lost track of him.

Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with him, saw him grow up as a child, like David Yoder, are having a hard time taking in that he is now charged with double murder. David Yoder, what did you think when you learned

that cops have arrested Richard Allen for the murder? of Abby and Libby. First hard, one, two, my mind is no way. No way. David Yoder says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew his entire childhood all the way through growing up

and moving away as an adult is responsible for such a gruesome sex attack, we believe, and double murder. We believe, by knife. I don't know. I'll have to ask the shrink. Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting a knife to a little girl's throat is just, it's repulsive.

I don't even want to think about it. But a little digging does reveal a tiny blip. Take a listen to our friend Max at Fox 59. Alan has no criminal history, but Carroll County dispatch records show he had one encounter with police in 2015. The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Alan was supposedly drunk and his wife took into a loft at hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies were sent to his Delphi home to, quote, keep the peace. Okay, Max Lewis, so far, the cops haven't come to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been carted off to the emergency room, drunk as a skunk. So,

what do we know about what happened? They weren't providing a whole lot of clarification about that. You know, it sounds like there was, you know, as I said there, there was a domestic situation. When I asked the sheriff, he's the domestic situation between, he wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little suspect of this, but, you know, that was, but it's also the only other thing I ever found of him. I mean, you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him. And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning. So, you know, I'll leave that for you guys to decide what you want to think about that. And I certainly will. I certainly will dissect that.

that. Who is up causing a ruckus, drunk as a skunk at 3 a.m. That's not good. To Fran Longwell, former deputy state's attorney in Calvert County, former assistant state's attorney and Prince George specializing in homicides and other related crimes. Fran, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this prior arrest? The prior arrest, it shows, in my opinion, that he does have some type of violent streak in him, but I kind of agree with you, Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going to find other victims or we're going to find other kids that have been abused by this guy. Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCollum?

What leads you to that speculation? But by the way, I agree with you. Well, I mean, again, broad daylight, two victims with other people around, a victim that clearly has a cell phone. That is high risk. You're talking about somebody on a bridge that's, you know, 80 feet high in the air and has boards missing. Everything he did was so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo. And I want to say one more thing when I was listening to the neighbor speak and I think people need to understand.

When you look at a case like this and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't possibly accept it or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists, like you and I, Nancy, we talked. Probably their throats were, you know, slashed, they were posed, they were staged. Things were probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort of ritual. If you look at it, if this was my case, one of the first things I would do is go to CVS and see if there's a camera in the girls' restaurant. Well, that's funny you would say that because after investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I would do is start looking for similar transactions,

but you said it so much more descriptively than I did because a crime like this, there has got to be some prior. Not necessarily in a Scott Peterson type case where that is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to kill. In a case like this, however, these are not his children. So although he does have a daughter near their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims, and I agree with you 300%.

Now, what do we know about a 12-plus hour search of his home? Something in that home led them to ultimately arrest the local pharmacist, the tech, Richard Allen. Take a listen to our cut 83, our friends at crime online. And first, our friend Lindsay Stone, Foxfield. Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information uncovered by our rustic Wade from sources with knowledge of the investigation. Found he even came forward in the early days of the investigation as a witness from the moment on high bridge the day Abby and Libby were killed in February of 2017. At the time, any inquiry did not reveal the need for further

investigation. However, his name surfaced again recently. A search form was issued at his house two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to the death. 10 days before the arrest of murder suspect, Richard Allen, police officers extensively searched the 50-year-old's home. Neighbors tell the New York Post the non-uniformed officers were on the property for about 12 hours. During the search of the property, Alan shares with his wife, officers were seen, quote, snooping a lot around the fire pit and at the backyard. A neighbor describes, quote, lots of flashlights, lots of pictures, lots of sifting, unquote, in that area. The source says that it was odd for them. to be in that area as the Allens were never observed burning things.

The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property, no one suspected that there would be a connection to the murders of living and Abby. What are they looking for? What were they looking for? If the Allen's really didn't use the fire pit, then what were they digging around for? Could it have anything to do with blood evidence? And there will be blood evidence.

Mark my words. Take a listen to our friends. WISH. This nine page request for a search warrant filed March 17th of 2017. Now that's a little more than a month after Libby German and Abby Williams were found murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document for the first time gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and what the suspect may have taken with him. The document written by an FBI agent describes what investigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German on February 4th. The agent writes, a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.

Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person or clothing. Straight out to Fox 59's Max Lewis. All of that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, a 12-plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth nearby. We know there's blood evidence.

And also, did you hear that? That he actually came forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation. Yeah, from what we have heard from our sources, you know, he, you know, walked up and volunteered to police and said, hey, you know, I was up there. I didn't really see anything, but, you know, I can tell you, you know, whatever you need to know or whatever. So, you know, that's sort of another amazing thing, and he was sort of brushed off and not really given a whole lot of thought to. As far as the search goes on his house, yeah, they were neighbors told us they were searching around there digging in the backyard, digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was in that fire pit. Was he trying to get rid of something?

You know, what was going on back there? so many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it all doesn't look good. I want to circle back to what you just said. Tell me again Max Lewis joining us from Fox 59 who's been on the case from the very very beginning.

You stated in the initial days of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and said, I was there and offered himself up as a witness. That's right. He was, you know, on, he said he was on the trail that

day and I'm not exactly sure how the encounter happened. If he was, you know, if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him or if he just walked up to them and said, hey, I was here or didn't see anything, but, you know, I can help you with what you need to know. But we do know that he was interviewed by police in the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then were found murdered. To Karen Stark joining me, renowned psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan at Karenstart.com. That's Karen with a sea. Karen, um, he places him. himself at the scene of the murder. Scott Peterson did that, idiot.

He places himself there, claiming he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain. And then Lacey and Conner's bodies turn up miraculously where he was fishing. And then in the weeks that followed, he was tracked back and forth to San Francisco by looking out over the water. I guess he was trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But also, it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer. He was always at the scene of the crime before anybody else got there under the guise of being a stringer for TV stations.

He was always there. And I think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to get information, were they on to him? What do you make of him coming to the scene? in the days immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby. I'm not the least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence. But the truth is, when you're that kind of person, a psychopath, capable of doing this without empathy, you are in many instances reliving what happened.

He's enjoying, believe it or not, every moment of this, very cunning and manipulative, sitting under post. with his own sketch in back of him and I want to tell you something you mentioned all those killers who everyone keeps saying you know gee I never would have expected it of him and that's not surprising because that's part of this MO is superficially charming and they strike observers as remarkably normal but they're not normal just the fact that he did that think about it he goes he's the one that ostensibly committed this crime and he's volunteering and I think that very often police forget to look at a person like this that they want to be there they want to be a part of it they're getting a thrill out of re-living it and being a part of the process I don't know if

the name Rodney Alcala rings a bell and Cheryl since you're jumping in I'll throw this to you he was the dating game killer Rodney Alcala and he was so charming. He managed handsome, the works to some people, not me, but many people. He was so charming and personable that they put him on the dating game. Remember that show?

And he turned out to be a cold-blooded killer. Cold-blooded killer. But let's talk about people that ingratiate themselves in cases. Vodiac did it. Oh, yeah? Yodiac couldn't take it and had to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing with Wayne Williams that is identical to

this case. Wayne Williams also burn things, not in a fire pit, but on his grill. Remember after police? Oh, yeah. FBI came? Okay. So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned is absolutely correct. And that's another reason he

hasn't maybe had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living this one. The family comes into CVS and he has contact with them. You know, ask him, hey, do you need anything? Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know, Kelsey always said she worried

about that. And that is the victim's sister. Had contact, but I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he went to the funeral or the viewing, and I guarantee he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official or not. I guarantee he was out there. Okay. I've got a pretty good idea what may have been burned in that fire pit. Take a listen to our friend, Demi Johnson, WISH TV. Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one of the girls was missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared the girls' bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes on to say, based upon my training and experience, it is common

for perpetrators of this type of crime to take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene. The agent also references the video on Libby's phone confirming it was 43 seconds long. Up until now, only a few seconds have been made public. that the girls were followed by the suspect on the monon high bridge trail and that there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight crime stories with nancy grace to this day richard allen says he's the victim and that there's been a horrible miscarriage of justice Oddity, immediately after the girls go missing, Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of 34 very long years, I'm sure, the mother of his daughter, Brittany, wanted to go search for the girls.

We learned from the new book, Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi murders and the dark side of the American Heartland, and the book is by journalist Annie Kane and lawyer Kevin Greenlee. They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife, wanted to go search for the girls. A lot of employers were actually giving employees a day off to go and search for the girls. Everyone was volunteering. Alan's wife, Kathy, wanted to go and search. But Alan actively convinced his wife not to get involved. What was actually said, we don't know specifically, but we do know it was a

enough to keep her from joining in the search. She also had to convince Richard Allen, her own husband, to tell police he was on the trails that day. He was reluctant to call in the tip. Why? What more do we know? Fran Longwell joining us, veteran trial lawyer, expertise, homicide. What do you make of that, Fran?

I think that's totally, definitely. that's natural. I think a lot of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure, always seem to take some kind of souvenir. We had a case years ago where they were finding bodies along the Beltway in areas of Prince George's County. And years and years later, that suspect was found, he was able to draw pictures of each victim, what she looked like, and he had some souvenir of each one of those murders. I don't think that's unusual. I think that's, that's, that's That's part of their excitement of the crime. What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining us today from Manhattan?

What about taking souvenirs? It's very common. It's like, you know, all the scrapbooks I have of the twins? I mean, I don't even know how many I've got. Birthday, christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving birthday. It just goes on and on a summer vacation for every year. They're 15, Karen. Those are my souvenirs.

But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want to relive it. That's the whole thing, is that it's exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate to say this, but I have a feeling it will be underwear because they like to do that, to take underwear, to take some kind of token that they've been there, that they did this, it gives them a really good sense of themselves.

They're powerful. They're above the law, and they got to wear. way with them. And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum, the evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing were interchanged by accident? Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something that occurs. I mean, it's something that they do. What about Ted Bundy? Oh, after the person was dead, he had redressed them and do their hair and makeup, who'd bathe their bodies in the bathtub, at the house. Israel Keys did the same thing.

Make up hair, redress them, pose them. Braiding the girl's hair, like, yeah, oh gosh, yeah. That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So a lot of times we focus on the murder, but it is a sexually generated crime. There's no question about it. And again, his computers, when, you know, the superintendent mentioned the lab so often, the electronic part, the biology, the tool marks,

the voice analysis. The hairs, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the tool marks, which is from a knife. But I also think arson is going to be a money tree. To Dr. Todd M. Barr now joining us, speaking of blood, he is a board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in thin places, essays from in between, and you can find them on Twitter at Todd Barr, M.E. That's from medical examiner. Dr. Barr, thank you for being with us and waiting for the buildup to the scientists, the medical examiners, that ultimately, since there are no eyewitnesses, as of yet, will make or break this case.

We learned that there are copious amounts of blood at the scene. How is that likely to have happened? Well, Nancy, it seems to me, I know that there's been speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had been slashed. And, you know, because the carotid arteries are under such high pressure, there would be a lot of spatter and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're absolutely 100% correct that there'd be transfer of that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but also under the perpetrator. So, and my thought was, you know, maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in the fire pit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on several serial killer cases before, and they do like to take a trophy from, you know, it's in my experience that these articles that they collect are basically like a trophy. And I have to also think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case, trying to get involved in the case, there may even be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.

So I think that, you know, with a $20 million bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some significant evidence that they found. I know it's all sealed, but I'm very much concerned that there are. other victims at play here. Wow. That was a lot of information, Dr. Todd Barr. So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death, which I find very, very unusual, I would have suspected a strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances. But due to the copious amounts of blood, to which have been alluded in the documents, it leads me to think that it is, in fact, a stabbing death. If there are multiple stab wounds, such as in the Jody Arias case where Travis Alexander was stabbed,

29 plus times and then shot, would you be able to match that, they're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a particular knife, and if so, how? Depending on the type of knife that may have been used, If it was one that had a serrated edge, you could actually, if the tool actually got into the bone in the area, that's where the tool marks are found when the blade would pass over the bone. And if it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges almost identically to show that a specific tool was used. So if they do have the murder weapon and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, then that could very easily be matched up. Five years after the murder, right, years passed after the murders before Richard Allen was arrested. A seemingly clerical error meant the tip, a specific tip, fell through the cracks.

But when it resurfaced, Richard Allen was re-interviewed and confirmed he was on the trail. and wearing the same outfit, blue jeans and a Carhart jacket as the guy caught on camera by the victims. What more will be uncovered? What more will be revealed about Richard Allen now convicted in the murders of Abby and Libby, their young lives cut short. Chilling comments he made to his mom after he murdered the two little girls now, coming to light. Don't worry, there will be an appeal, and we wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.