Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FSU student Maura Binkley gunned down in "HOT YOGA CLASS" by INCEL Perv

Episode Date: July 3, 2019

Two shot and killed, four wounded, one pistol whipped... all at the hands of a self proclaimed "incel." Today, Nancy Grace and her guests take a deep look at the subculture of "involuntary celebate, " and its link to an increase in assaults on women. Our focus is a gunman's brutal attack on a Florida hot yoga studio. Joining our panel, Jeff Binkley, founder of Maura's Voice. His daughter Maura was one of those killed. Also with us: Washington Post Opinion Columnist Christine Emba, Prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Former NYPD John Cardillo, and Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. all covered in blood and I've just been shot. Okay, where is she shot at? She's shot in her either it either went in her chest or in her back. I'm not sure the hole in the side. Okay, is she breathing? She's breathing, she's talking, she's conscious but she's very hurt and she's bleeding badly. Okay, Anthony we've got multiple victims shooting to the chest. We've got pressure on the wound, way back in the back, pressure on the wound, pressure on the wound. Okay, I will never forget that 911 call when apparently a woman-hating misogynist who brands women's, quote, whores and sluts in songs on YouTube,

opens fire in a yoga studio. Joining me today, one of the victims, Maura Binkley's father, along with renowned journalist Christine Emba, it's a phenomena called incel. Listen. He's shooting at everybody. I think you're still there. Wait, what's your store called? Hey, okay, call me. phenomena called incel. Listen. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE

PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE

PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE

PEOPLE. I THINK HE SHOT ALL THE PEOPLE. And there's people down in the floor that he shot. Okay, people down? Yes, like three or four people. Three or four people. It's not just him. It's not this incel misogynist. It is a phenomenon that is growing across our country. You were just hearing the 911 call the day of a horrific shooting at a hot yoga studio.

The shooter's name, I hate to even mention it, Scott Beerly, seven people shot. Of course, women flocking to the studio in the evening hours after work. Joining me, Jeff Binkley. His daughter, Maura, was shot in the hot yoga studio. You know, Jeff, I will never, ever forget the morning I learned about Maura's death. What do you recall of that? I know it was just a haze in your mind. Well, I mean, I recall everything.

The initial phone call from one of Maura's roommates' mom, discussions with the hospital, Tallahassee Police, you know, just the whole process of of notification that's a nightmare and it um but but you you you remember everything and of course piecing together what happened uh it was in the evening um you know we we drove down to tallahassee the next day, were in touch with people the whole time, but it didn't take long forize it. What this is, what does it mean, why are so many men opening fire out of anger toward women? And then I found a voice, a voice that put some sense to it. It's Christine Emba from the Washington Post.

Her article, Men Are in Trouble, Incels, or Proof, I never knew the word incel. You know, I thought I knew it all about criminal law. I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim. But when I read Christine's column, I was overwhelmed because it verbalized what I've been trying to say. I'm just a trial lawyer. You know, Christine Ember with me, Washington Post columnist. Christine, tell me about your theory of incel. What is incel? I-N-C-E-L-S, incels. Yeah, so it's not surprising that you haven't heard of them because this is a sort of internet subculture and it's only you know more recently become uh visible in the mainstream because of events like the shooting and others elsewhere um but these incels

are self-described um involuntary celibates is what they term themselves. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, Christine. Okay. I'm a big admirer of yours. But when you say things like involuntary celibates, I'm just going to break it down. I'll say it in regular people talk. It's guys that cannot find a sex partner. It's guys that cannot get a date. And I know, let me just say it in my terms, they get angry and time passes and they get angrier and angrier and angrier. And then they start hating the very people they want to go out with. Now, you called it involuntary celibacy. I did. Yeah, you're totally right. One of the, you know, one of the strange things about this Internet subculture and many Internet subcultures is that it's weirdly self-reinforcing. They have called themselves, you know, involuntarily celibate or involuntarily single, as though the world has completely rejected them.

When in reality, a lot of these are just, you know, kind of normal guys. Lots of people have gone through, you know, periods where they were single and they didn't want to be single or like wish they had a partner. But many of these are young men who, you know, get on these forums and talk about it, give themselves a name, you know, self-reinforce when someone else voices their frustration with being single, you know, all of the other people on these forums will chime in. And they've even developed, you know, a whole, like social and political theory around why this is happening. And it centers. Okay, hold on, hold on, Christine. Yeah, Christine, I've got I'm looking at your article again. And the way you describe it,

they believe in cell, and it's short for involuntary celibacy. That's where the name comes from, INCEL. She, Christine Emba at the Washington Post, mentioned their communities, which are all online, okay? Trust me, they're not getting together in person and going out for dinner somewhere at Olive Garden. No, they're up at one and two o'clock in the morning on these crazy websites whining. She says self-reinforcing. That's my interpretation of what you just said. They think they're, and I'm reading from her article, they think their looks or personality traits have consigned them to lifelong loneliness, and they add fuel to the fire by elaborate and elaborately misogynistic women-hating theories to blame other people for their plight,

choosing only a handful of the most attractive men to be with, that's what they accuse women of, and disdaining the rest. But, you know, some people would say that's putting perfume on the pig. Take a listen to our friend Carrie Sanders at NBC News. This is what it really is. This morning, troubling new details are emerging about the man responsible for the deadly shooting at a Tallahassee yoga studio. Police identifying the gunman is 40-year-old Scott Paul Beerly. Authorities say he killed two people on Friday and shot five others before taking his own life. It appears Beerly posted dozens of misogynistic

and racist videos on YouTube. The videos, which were not widely viewed, have been removed by YouTube because of their offensive content. According to arrest records, Beerly had a history of harassing women in Florida. According to one Tallahassee police incident report, in 2012, he was arrested for battery for grabbing girls' butts near FSU's campus. A 2016 arrest report for battery states that Beerly approached a woman at a Tallahassee area pool and slapped her butt, grabbed it and shook it.

Both charges were eventually dropped. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The shooter who took the lives of two people in the hot yoga Tallahassee class started looking into the studio in May of 2016. Chief Michael DeLeo says in addition to looking into the studio, Scott Burley was also searching for yoga related pornography. It wasn't until July of 2018 when he bought the gun he would use at Hot Yoga Tallahassee. He made that purchase in Orange City. A few days later, Burley went to the Tallahassee indoor shooting range. In early August, he started looking deeper into the studio, checking out maps and a class schedule.

On August 17th, he called Hot Yoga Tallahassee. Chief DeLeo says the studio didn't recall anything specific about the conversation. On October 14th, he booked his hotel room in Tallahassee, and on Halloween, he bought hearing protection and a yoga mat. Wow. The degree of premeditation in Scott Beerly's attack on women in a Tallahassee Hot Yoga studio, overwhelming. That was our friend at WTXL Tallahassee, Valerie Mills, reporting. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. We have an all-star panel, and we are trying to examine a very, very upsetting trend. It's called incels. First, I want to go back to Jeffrey Binkley. His daughter, Maura, was shot at the Hot Yoga Studio there in Tallahassee. He co-founded Maura's Voice, M-A-U-R-A, Maura's Voice, to help fund InCell research. I had no idea what incel even was. I kept reporting on and actually prosecuting cases where men were angry they didn't have dates and would attack women, usually in the form of a rape

case. Many, many of them in inner city Atlanta. And now this, it's escalated to murder. Jeff Binkley, I know I'm projecting after the murder of my fiance, what you must have been feeling. But now that I have the twins, Jeff, John David and Lucy, I can't even imagine somebody taking one of them away from me. And it's just overwhelming when you look back on the phone call, when you learned Maura was a victim. What are your thoughts now as you're hearing Christine Emba, and we're about to be joined by Wendy Patrick, author of Red Flags, John Cardillo, former NYPD, and veteran psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall. Jeff, when you hear us all just talking about it, you know, sometimes when people ask me about Keith's murder, even to this day, I just want to break down and cry. I don't know how you do it.

What runs through your mind while we're talking about this? Well, here's what runs through my mind. Our culture has to change. Mara's life, which is I think that's the important thing. And it was about love, care, support, encouragement for others. But along with that, I think that the most important manifestation of love is our care for our brothers and sisters.

And part of that, a big part of that, is that responsibility and accountability for their safety to go to school, to go to a church or synagogue, to go to a gym or yoga studio, and not be victim to behavior of individuals who are part of hateful, violent, grievance-ridden subcultures. And that's what Mara's voice is about, is about not only research, but education, engagement around the intersection of hate and violence in our society. Mara wanted to be a diplomat, bring people together. So our responsibility is to, again, continue what she started. So that's our focus. Through all the pain that's there every hour, every day. But there was a light, there's a voice, that no hateful, cowardly crime could extinguish. Jeff Binkley, you know, just when I think I am just too tired to keep trying

or even look at one more case, then you talk, and I completely am inspired and renewed to keep trying. And just hearing your voice, and I'm thinking of John David and Lucy, my twins, and what I want for them. Christine Emba with me, Washington Post columnist, article of men are in trouble. Incels are proof has brought to light and brought a name, a title, an analysis of what is happening. I mean, Lucy right now is about to turn 12. In six years, she'll be off to college and going to yoga studios and workout classes and spin class or whatever she'll be doing at that time. I want the same thing Jeff Binkley wants Christine Emba. I want her to be

free and not live in fear. And right now with the the incel movement happening, I mean, Christine, you had to go to those sites, for instance, Reddit, just banned them. But those crazy web chats they engage in, what did you learn, Christine, Amber? You're right, I did have to go to the site and they are disturbing to say the least. The conversations start, you know, at their basic level. They're men, they're usually young men. They're lonely, which is something that happens to everybody at some time or another. But, you know, they end up living online and living in their own world, where they create this idea of women who are incredibly cruel, and themselves as, you know, actually helpless before them, and then they become angry because they think they deserve access to women. But, you know, behind it all,

I think what we're seeing is really sort of a lack, well, a lack of a lot of things that are common in our society, you know, taking hold and manifesting in a really dangerous way. Many of these are young men who are perhaps underemployed, you know, not in school, not in training. That's a phenomenon that's, you know, really increased over time as women are beginning. Oh, wait a minute, Christine, Ember, you know, as my grandmother used to say, idle hands, the devil's workshop. Absolutely. And that's exactly what you're saying. When you're not at work, you're not at school, you're not out doing something, you have time to fester, to sit at home and think about all your problems and really a lot of self-analysis. Okay, you know what?

Speaking of self-analysis, with me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, John Cardillo, former NYPD, Wendy Patrick, trial lawyer out of California, author of Red Flags. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, are you sitting down? Yes, I am. Okay, well, I think you better lay down for this. I've been waiting to play this because I hate to even hear the voice, but I want you to hear Scott Beerly, the hot yoga shooter. I feel a compulsion now to discuss and address the origins of my misogynism and and the rebirth and when it was reborn nobody nobody emerges out of the womb one particular way or viewing or seeing

one particular group of people one particular way it occurs over a source of accumulated experiences or maybe it's one perpetual individual i know a girl and i was teaching i hated her mom and uh she was kind of a i what did she well that's a whole other story okay dr bethany marshall i need to shrink help me out there's a lot more, that's a whole other story. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I need to shrink. Help me out. There's a lot more, but that's the only one I felt like I could play right now. Well, these incels and this perpetrator in particular who's talking really embody the traits of mass murderers. They've just found a very clever rationalization for murdering women.

And what we know about mass murderers is that they're what one researcher calls injustice collectors. They have a paranoid relationship with society. They feel disempowered. They look at society as an all-you-can-eat buffet where everybody gets to serve up helpings for themselves, but they don't get any of it personally. Everybody else gets all the treasures of life and they get nothing. And these mass murderers, in particular, these incels, they plot and plan, Nancy. They are obsessed with the idea of killing. And they often have all these manifestos. They ramble. They write. There are all kinds of risk factors. Often,

they do not have jobs. They're disenfranchised. They feel rejected, but in reality, they have removed themselves from society because they're envious and they feel that everybody else is better than them, but they're resentful at a pathological level. It's not the normal resentment of somebody who maybe somebody gets a job promotion and they get passed over for that same promotion. It's this belief that everybody has gotten something that they haven't gotten and they are going to wipe out the objects of their envy. So I wouldn't even say with these incels that they want to have sex with women, but they can't get a sex partner. I think it's, I wouldn't even say with these incels that it's that they want to have sex with women, but they can't get a sex partner. I think it's more basic than that. I think they feel that

these women have better lives and they are envious of that. And they just want to blot out their existence. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Upon arriving on scene, officers found multiple victims suffering from gunshot wounds. Emergency responders immediately provided aid and transported five victims to local hospitals. One victim has passed away at the hospital. The other four victims at this time are in critical condition, and we're working closely to identify them, work with them, and notify their families. At this time, all indications are this is the act of a single person.

The chief of police, Michael DeLeo, in Tallahassee, describing a mass shooting at a hot yoga studio in Tallahassee. The victims, women, the perp, an incel, involuntary celibate. With me, the dad of victim Maura Binkley. Jeff Binkley, when you hear the, when you listen now to the press conferences and the 911 calls, does it even seem real? What was your ride like? You got in the car and you drove immediately to Tallahassee. I can only imagine. I remember learning. I just got in the twins back to New York, gotten them bathed, gotten in their PJs, and my mom called and said, they want to put your dad on life support.

I remember exactly where I was standing in the apartment, got everybody back out on the street, and it was 1130 at night. I was trying to hail a cab and somehow get on a plane to get home. And trying to get home was just excruciating. Those hours it took me to get to my dad before he passed away were some of the worst hours I've ever lived through. What was that drive like to Tallahassee? Time slows down. Seems like it almost stops. But the thing, most important thing, and what I will remember above and beyond anything else is the people who reached out and we talked to during that call, I mean, during that ride, they got us through, got us to Tallahassee.

And it's the support of so many loving, caring people, people who live lives that are the antithesis of the Tallahassee shooter. So that degree of care and support, that got us through, not only those first days, but certainly still does. Wendy Patrick with me, renowned California trial lawyer, author of Red Flags. You can find it on Amazon. Wendy Patrick, I mean, Red Flags. There cannot be anything I'm more interested in right now than understanding this phenomenon with Christine Emba from the Washington Post

and trying to figure out how to stop it with you and Cardillo and Dr. Bethany Marshall. Wendy, help me because these people, as Christine Emba is correctly describing them, I don't think they have a mental health issue such as insanity or a mental defect. I just think they're self-obsessed and turned hateful. That's right, Nancy. From a threat assessment perspective, Christine really had a number of great observations, as did Dr. Bethany Marshall. John Cardillo and I would also look at the same types of things in this man's background. It is too bad nobody was watching what he was posting online, because had we been paying more attention, what somebody might have

done is linked up what he said and what he did. This wasn't somebody just... Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, really? Are you seriously saying that we should monitor the Internet? Because it's all I can do to work, take care of the twins and, you know, get up to fight another day. You've got law enforcement overwhelmed. We can't catch. People say, hey, do you think you, you know, prosecuted an innocent person? I'm like, no, I think that there are millions of people out there that are walking free that we can't catch. That's what I think. Okay. How did law enforcement have time to go online and find the idiot incels? Yeah, no, I'm not saying that they did. In fact, I'm arguing the opposite, Nancy,

because we don't have that kind of manpower and resources. This is what ends up happening is there's nobody that sees that that says anything. You know, one of the things that's always frustrating is when you have a message from Facebook or some executive saying, we expect people to report what they see. People don't do that. Law enforcement doesn't have time to do that. But what makes this man stick out from the crowd is the fact that his long timeline of rumination and injustice collecting, as Dr. Marshall says, all of this, they don't snap. This was a long, pre-planned, let's just say, march towards death, which is actually what ended up happening. But this is one of those guys that slides under the radar precisely because, Nancy, we don't have the kind of manpower to

figure out who is not only saying what this man said online, but actually doing criminal acts, batteries, grabbing women. Nobody was able to put it together. Had we had a threat assessment perspective, sadly, he fits a pattern. He was. Hey, guys, I'm sorry. He was turned into the FBI. A friend of his wife saw his videos. This is all in the police report. Contacted the FBI. They said this was not actionable because the threats weren't direct enough. So this behavior, the online behavior, was brought to the attention of law enforcement. He was fired from Volusia County Schools in Florida, substitute teacher, for touching a 12-year-old girl inside her shirt. That's a felony. He could have been charged with a felony. And with his record,

he would be probably in jail today. Mara and Dr. Van Vessen would be alive. So he was not below the radar under the radar by any means. He left behind the trail and his behavior. He was fired for looking at pornography in a classroom in Tallahassee, a middle school classroom. So he was definitely, he was evaluated a number of times, I think four times by mental health professionals. One, we learned, did identify him as being very dangerous. His counsel managed to keep that out of the hands of the

state's attorney's office in Tallahassee while he was under supervision. Jeff, I see he was arrested several times, too, actually brought to the attention of law enforcement and taken into custody several times. Twice. Guys, you know what? You have just totally, completely messed my head up because I can't put my finger on it. But Christine Embaugh, Washington Post columnist, I was happier when I thought, OK, he flew under the radar. Nobody knew. And this is what happened. Now, Jeff Binkley has correctly pointed out he was not under the radar. That used to weigh on my mind so much. Every time I get a plea calendar of 150 new felons every week to plead out or take to trial, in the back of my mind, I say, you know

what, if I let this guy off for X, Y, Z, fill in the blank, if I give him a light plea, what if he comes back in a month and he's killed somebody? That weighed on my mind so much. So I ended up getting a horrible reputation of being a, there's no nice way to put it, ball buster. Because, you know, after the murder of my fiance, I, you know, I could not in good conscience, let somebody get a light plea. It just, it's maddening. Christine Emba, there's even more to it. In your article, you have a sentence that says, and you've got it in italics, it says, he always hated women, then he decided to kill them. So obviously, no one brought him to justice the way he should have been at the get go. But what do you mean by he always hated women? Well, the incel phenomenon is, you know, a huge corruption of a lot of the trends that we are seeing in society. One of the reasons one might suspect that when a man was reported to the police for, you know, writing racist woman-hating posts on his Facebook is that in some ways in our society, it's kind of okay

to hate women. Misogyny is not necessarily seen as something really out of the ordinary. And, you know, we see this with discussions about, you know, how feminism is ruining women or how, you know, how women are taking men's jobs, it becomes sort of normal to resent women. And really, this man had just been doing it all his life. You know, perhaps as a teenager, he, you know, also hated women. But also the internet makes this sort of thing worse. Because, you know, in the past, you could guess that somebody might have these kind of crazy ideas. They might be complaining about how they can't get a girlfriend and that's symbolic of something else. But eventually, they would have to go outside, they would have to talk

to people just to move around in the world. But now, you know, instead of going out and getting a job, going and talking to a therapist, these men just congregate in these forums. They talk about their problems over and over, make them worse, encourage each other to think these, you know, dark, misogynistic thoughts, tell each other they're right. And there's obviously no one online in these forums to correct them. And so it keeps sort of doubling down and reinforcing in these spaces. And then most of them, you know, stay online, complain from, you know, their mother's basements or wherever they are. But some of them are, you know, crazy enough, frankly, angry enough that they want to go out and put an action to their feelings. And when your feelings are hatred at the opposite sex, at the entire world for denying you something you think you deserve, then taking out hatred can take a horrible form.

And that's what we've been seeing happening from these forums. You know, these men are leaving, these incels are leaving these forums and taking out for hatred, their misogyny, their anger on innocent women. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, do you know how many people have been shot? We have, yes. We still have been shot. Okay, people have been shot. In food, glorious food. Okay, do you know how many people have been shot? We have, yes. We still have been shot. Okay, people have been shot.

You're hearing a 911 call at the shooting of Hot Yoga in Tallahassee. A man walks in with a gun, opens fire. These beautiful lives at risk. The life of Maura Binkley, gone. For what? And now we learn about the phenomena of incels,

I-N-C-E-L-S, involuntary celibates. Listen to what I learned from Christine Emba's Washington Post column. I learned about a book called Man Out, Men on the Sidelines of American Life. Okay, millennials are the quote new lost boys. that's hardly how i would describe these guys this shooter barely as many as one in three american 18 to 34 year old men are unemployed living at home because of a confluence of factors okay women surging ahead out enrolling men in colleges and universities a new uncertainty about their place in the world is leading to spiking levels of anxiety and depression. Does that translate to murder?

To John Cardillo joining me right now, former NYPD. And you know, he's been in the thick of it. John Cardillo. I mean, I know that this book about man out, men on the sidelines of American life. All right. You know, I feel sorry for anybody that has to live in their mom's basement in their thirties. But when it translates to murder, to H-E-L-L with all that psycho babble, no offense, Bethany, but this is a cold

blooded murder. And you heard Jeff Binkley correct all of us about this guy's history. He had a history. He was not so, quote, under the radar. Nothing was done. Help me. What can we do, John? Well, yeah, so much to unpack here. First, let me say to Jeff, our thoughts and prayers are with you, how impressed I am.

Jeff reminds me of my good friend, Andy Pollack, who lost his daughter in Parkland. You know, through the pain, they're working hard to make sure other families don't have to go through this. So he's, Jeff, you're really doing God's work. Very, very impressed. Nancy, the big problem here, the big problem here is that we have to balance, and this is a conversation I've had with my good friend Wendy Patrick more times than I can count. I know she'll agree. When we monitor these groups online, and I've always been in law enforcement, a big fan of profiling and monitoring as long as we do it constitutionally. And so there's what they're saying online with their writing is vile. It's hateful.

It's disgusting. You want to click off the page and turn away. But in all but a few instances, those instances when they specifically target a person or a location, it's First Amendment protected. So law enforcement is monitoring. We found out just this week, just two, three days ago that the United States Air Force received some intelligence that warranted a briefing on incels at Joint Base Andrews outside of Washington, D.C. So the United States Air Force is actually now looking at this group, at these incels, the same as they're looking at the Bloods and the Crips infiltrating military armories, biker gangs, white supremacist groups. So they are firmly on law enforcement's radar.

Listen to one, a bona fide incel. Girls, if you want to know or are curious why, in part, guys are so anxious and aggressive and in a hurry just watch any any number of things. Okay, you just heard the voice of the monster. There's no other word for it that took the life of Jeff Binkley's daughter, Mara, minding her own business there at a Tallahassee hot yoga studio when he comes blasting in guns a-blazing. Now, it wasn't that simple. It took a lot of time and thought and energy and planning for that attack. Christine, Emma, your article is so true, but it leaves me wondering, what do I do now?

There are a million Scott Beerleys out there. That's a really hard question to answer because, as I wrote in my article, the incels are kind of a symptom of a larger problem that's affecting men across the country, really across the world. You know, we have a culture that, you know, sometimes uses sex, the ability to get sex or get a partner as a marker of success. But at the same time, we're getting worse at fostering real human connection with people. And instead, you know, we substitute the Internet. And some people, I think, are strong enough and lucky enough to be able to escape that pole. Or they have parents or friends who, you know, correct them and bring're gross. We'll just ignore them. We'll pretend that this isn't going on. The rest of us are living our lives generally okay. So we can just pretend nothing is happening there. But we really will have to look at our culture and our society and think, what are we doing? What are we doing that we allow this talk, this hatred of women to become

normal? What are we doing that we allow these creepy forums, this time spent talking to nobody in the real world, but only on the internet or over gaming devices, normal? How do we change that? And that's going to be the really hard part because that will be a really deep change for our culture. To Jeffrey Binkley, the dad of Maura Binkley, who was shot and killed at the Hot Yoga Studio in Tallahassee, who has now founded Maura's Voice. Jeff, I want to close

with your thoughts and how we can take action through Maura's Voice. Thank you. And I'd like everyone to think about this. Any social problem, social pathologies, they operate on multiple terrorist group does, there is incitement, which in itself can be a crime. Right, Nancy? And I heard a CNN reporter, I don't know who it was, or I'd give her credit, ask someone a question last week, and I thought she put it well. Is the internet our, quote, crowded theater? We're all familiar with the legal analogy, fire in a crowded theater. It's not just incels. There are white supremacists, anti-Semitic, other groups that are very similar in their approaches to radicalization and incitement. That's not protected by the First Amendment. We have to look at very seriously

the application of those principles of free speech and how they apply in the age of the internet. You mentioned your children, everybody's children, how that applies in that crowded theater, which every time they log in or turn on, they're present in. And I would just ask everyone listening to consider this. And I ask everyone listening to please go to Mara's Voice, M as in mother, A-U-R-A, apostrophe S, Mara's Voice, to find out about incel research. You can go online and find Christine Emba's article in the Washington Post, Men Are in Trouble, Incels Are Proof. And that article leads you to so much more.

And right now, I am remembering and thinking of a beautiful, brilliant girl who lost her life to an incel. Maura Binkley, Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.