Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - GABBY PETITO WAS KILLED... But How?

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

As the autopsy on Gabby Petito's body continues, so does the search for her boyfriend , Brian Laundrie. Multiple sightings are being reported to police, including a possible sighting on a deer cam. Dive teams have been called to a Florida nature preserve where police have been looking for Brian Laundrie since late last week.dive teams have been called to a Florida nature preserve where police have been looking for Brian Laundrie since late last week.As Fox News 11 reports, the Sarasota County Sheriff’s Office Dive Team was called to the Carlton Reserve shortly before noon on Wednesday. It is not yet known if the dive teams are following a specific lead or if it is a routine search. known if the dive teams are following a specific lead or if it is a routine search.Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Dr. Priya Banerjee, M.D.  - Board Certified Anatomic and Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology LLC, Assistant Medical Examiner, www.anchorforensicpathology.com, Twitter: @Autopsy_MD Laura Ingle - Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel, Twitter: @lauraingle, Instagram: @lauraingletv Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Word just in from the Teton County coroner, Gabby Petito was killed. A homicide. There's no two ways about it. Take a listen to this. Just before five o'clock Tuesday evening, the FBI confirmed the remains found Sunday in Wyoming are indeed that of Gabby Petito. The manner of death was listed as homicide, the FBI said in a statement. The FBI and our partners remain dedicated to ensuring anyone responsible for or complicit in Ms. Petito's death is held accountable for their actions. You were just hearing our friends at ABC7. Cause of death

and manner of death are two very different things. But what we know right now is Gabby Petito was killed. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all, Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville. Also, former FBI agent Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist, joining us from Manhattan at KarenStark.com. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute at Cold Case Tips. cold case tips. Dr. Priya Banerjee joining us, board certified anatomic and forensic pathologist at anchorforensicpathology.com. And joining us there on the scene, camped outside the Teton County Coroner's office is Fox Senior News Correspondent, Laura Engel. Laura, what's happening? Well, right now we are awaiting word that the county coroner here is going to release the remains of Gabby Petito back to the family. But as of this morning, we have been told that they do still have her remains. There is still

more testing that is going to be done. The ID, as we know, has been announced. Homicide has been announced, but they are still doing the toxicology and also some other testing on the remains. So until that is completed, that is when they will be releasing the remains back to the family. We know that the stepfather is still here in Jackson and he will be here until it is time, as the family has said, to bring Gabby home. To Dr. Priya Banerjee joining us, board-certified anatomic and forensic pathologist and AME at the Medical Examiners. Dr. Priya Banerjee, what do they mean? They're saying it's homicide, but they're not telling me how. What's the difference between cause of death

and manner of death? That's a great question. That's very specific to our field. But the way I explain it is cause of death is why the person died. And manner is a classification as to how that manner happened or how that cause happened. Excuse me. And so here, what they're telling us by labeling it or classifying it as a homicide in the manner is that she did not die of natural causes or suicide has been alleged. This is definitely a homicide, death at the hands of another. Cheryl McCollum joining me, director and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert. There's a big difference in cause of death and manner of death.

What do you think? I think they're going to hold that close to their vest because when they get the suspected killer in an interrogation room, they're going to watch what he says and his manners. So if he all of a sudden blurts out, hey, I didn't strangle her. Nobody said anything about strangulation. Why would he bring that up? That's a really good point. And Dale Carson joining me, a high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former fed with the FBI.

Dale Carson, what do you think? You and I, Cheryl, all everybody on the panel has seen so many homicide cases. What do you think? Well, I think he's not going to say anything when he is ultimately found and arrested. And of course, the ME's office still has a great deal to do. You know, was her skull fractured? It's not an accident. We know that much now. We know it's a homicide. How is it a homicide? What actually killed her? And then there are many other tests they have to look at to determine whether or not she had chemicals on board that she wasn't supposed to have or if she's pregnant. Wow. I hadn't even thought about that. Guys, take a listen to our cut 126, Kirsten Thorne,

ABC 7. To be clear about the manner of death and cause of death, that can be very confusing. We now know that the manner of death has been ruled a homicide. The cause of death, how Gabby Petito was killed, has not yet been determined. We reached out to the Laundrie family attorney to get a reaction to all of this, to Gabby Petito's remains, to being identified to the manner of death being listed as a homicide. And his reaction and statement from the family was five words. May Gabby rest in peace. Well, they certainly did not go overboard with that.

May Gabby rest in peace. This while their son is still on the run. I want to go now back to Dr. Priya Banerjee. So what are our choices? We know it was a homicide. That much they've told us. You heard Dale Carson out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent, state, did she have a skull fracture? What else are we going to be looking at to determine cause of death? Manner of death? Homicide. Cause of death? Was she bludgeoned? How can we determine that? Was she stabbed? How can we determine that? Was she smothered? How can we determine that? Drowned? How can we

determine that? What are we looking for? What are our choices? And what will the evidence be as it relates to each one of those homicide choices? Yeah, I mean, that's the money right there. That's the entire autopsy. You can't go into it with only one option in your mind. Everything has to be out there. And my colleagues definitely have a complicated case on their hands because we know that it's been at least a few weeks that she hasn't been heard from. So now it's safe to assume that there's decomposition changes and other effects of being out there.

As you said, bludgeoning, we look for skull fractures, bleeding, stabbing or gunshot wounds. You look for holes that shouldn't be there and bleeding associated with it. In such sort of like domestic violence type cases, you really want to think about smothering, strangulation, anything like that that's very up close and personal. So, you know, and the other thing I like to say is it's not just always just one method. You know, don't think that it can't be some blunt force, some strangulation, whatever it may be. You know, to, you know, formally or fully kill someone, it could be with their weekend with one method and then killed with another. So lots going on there. crime stories with nancy grace

to you cheryl mccollum uh cold case research analyst and expert let's just take it one at a time. Let's talk about stabbing. I believe she was still clothed. Therefore, I would be looking for tears or puncture wounds in the clothing. Then if there are puncture wounds in the clothing, I would try to match that pain. I'm just a JD, certainly not an MD. I would try to then put the clothes on her body and then see where that puncture wound matched up to a puncture wound on her actual body. Then I would try to determine was the weapon serrated? Was it a dagger? Was it an ice pick? What was it? And you can determine that from the wound itself. I would also look for nicks or cuts on the bones under the skin there. I would look for bleeding internally if a, say a kidney was suddenly sliced open and bleeding.

That's what I think you would look for if there had been a stabbing. What about if there had been blunt force trauma? And as Dr. Priya Banerjee said, we have body decomp because she's been left out in the elements, the rain, the wind, the cold at night, the heat during the day. It's going to slow things down. But let's talk about blunt force and smothering. Start with blunt force. They are definitely going to look at the injuries to her head or face.

Anything that was opened, they're going to look to see if there's any dirt or soil in there that would be indicative of the fall versus was it open before. They're going to do that. They're also going to look for defensive wounds on her hands and on her arms. They're going to look for skin under her fingernails. Maybe she fought the person if she were strangled, you know, before she was beaten or vice versa. If she fought in any way, they're going to look for that. They're also going to look again for tears in her clothing. Was her collar, you know, extended? Was some buttons ripped off? Was the shirt itself ripped? Anything that would be indicative of a fight or her being pulled or even strangled with her clothing. You know, what I'm thinking about, Dr. Priya Banerjee, is has decomp set in to the point that her skin was slipping or decomposing and you can't see finger marks or bruises

around her neck? The decomposition and the discoloration really make it much more challenging um but once you get inside you're really going to look for bleeding and maybe fractures in the delicate bones of the neck you mean like the hyoid bone exactly the hyoid bone it's very very delicate and also if her skin had begun to decompose you would also look for bruising to the muscles under the skin which i think would still be intact i think i hear dale carson jumping in jump in dale yeah i just uh did a calculation and it's 24 days she was laying out just that's a good estimate and that allows for time for a great deal of competition or

decomposition and will make it really difficult for the coroners to determine precisely when she died. But of course, we now have an actual witness seeing him in that specific area before she, when she went missing. I want to go to Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan. Karen, given what we know, and I'm going to circle back to Laura Engel to describe it for you, of prior domestic incidents,

a very disturbing 911 call emerged after the body cam in Moab, Utah. A cop's body cam in Moab, Utah, a cop's body cam. You see Gabby and Brian Laundrie getting pulled over after they jumped a curb. And she's crying. She's upset. She's very distraught. He's calm, cool, and collected.

But just before that, there had been a 911 call where the mail caller says he sees Brian Laundrie slapping and hitting a girl, Gabby, as she's running up the sidewalk and she's trying to get into the van. He has gotten into the van, locked her out, and he has a cell phone and apparently is leaving her and she's trying to desperately to get into the van. Now, given what we know, what would you conclude is the COD? Well, it seems to me, Nancy, that just the fact that he locked her out of the van tells you that something more is going on between the two of them. And that they reported that he seemed to be slapping her and hitting her.

What's most salient to me, even if you look at the body cam and what went on between the two of them when they were talking to the police, is just what you described. He's very calm and she's taking total responsibility to the fact they were pulled over, to the fact that they were fighting. It's all her fault because of anxiety. And that to me is very typical of somebody who's in an abusive relationship, a woman who keeps taking responsibility, blaming herself for what's happening and has lost her sense of self. And so I feel like maybe he did actually lock her out of that van and left her there. Or they were fighting and he wound up killing her. But I think that it has to have something to do with him just because of everything that we're hearing with reports of the hitting with the police pulling them over.

Which leads me, Cheryl McCollum, director of Cold Case Research Institute, to make a calculated guess that this was blunt force or strangulation because we know he hit her in the face before. So if he's already done that, then you know his MO, modus operandi. Jump in. Well, we also know that there wasn't blood all over the van. We know that there's, we're looking to see what was in that van, but also what was missing from the van, such as was a tarp missing, were sheets missing. But again, law enforcement already knows that. They've already searched that. We also know, or they know, we don't know yet,

but they know the state she was left in. So some of these things have already been answered, but I will tell you something that was critical to me on that tape of them when they were pulled over by law enforcement. The last thing he says to the officer is, well, I was just going to, because he says, have no communication with each other. Stay away from each other for the night. And he says, well, I'm just going to text her that I love her and don't contact me.

That is so passive aggressive. That is still so controlling. He's again, even at that juncture in front of four police officers, letting Gabby know, I can text you. Don't you text me. He's still controlling the situation. Straight back out to Wyoming, standing by at the Teton County Coroner's Office is Laura Engel, Sr., correspondent for Fox News, joining us. Laura, thank you so much for being with us. What are your insights based on where she was found?

Do we know how she was found? Was she clothed? Was she buried? Was she dragged to that location? Was she under a canopy of trees or left out in the open, down a ravine in water? What can we surmise so far, Laura, if anything? So if you go back to looking at that tape of that other camper that went down the road and spotted the white van, that was that critical tip for the FBI of where to pinpoint their search.

If you go back and you look at that area, and we took some drone video, so we go up and over that area, and you look at that spread creek, there's a beautiful trickling water and pebbles, and there are a lot of wide open spaces, which is super surprising to me, because when we find out in this tape where her body was located and it does appear from what we've been told. And again, the FBI has not said this. The local police are not telling us. But from what we have surmised from the evidence at the scene where she was found, where that stone cross was put out by the by the stream, she was apparently left out in the open. And somebody, another reporter that was there yesterday said that there were the orange spray marks of a spray can of where the evidence markers were. So there was a log.

There were lots of rocks that were kind of strewn about that had a lot of markings on them. We don't know for sure. You know, everything was closed off when they found her. They put a tent and a tarp overhead so nobody could watch. But it appears as though she was left out in the elements for quite some time. And some further detail from the Teton County coroner that we got this morning, again, the autopsy being complete, but forensic testing ongoing. It includes microscopic tests and the toxicology. And we've been told now that the samples from the remains were taken yesterday for these tests.

And the coroner says they don't have a timetable on these test results, but it could be coming back in days or weeks. We just don't know. But, you know, the thing about when we talk about the relationship and what was noted in that body cam footage and what we've been talking about here, I also want to add, so there was a 911 call from the person who witnessed the argument that the two had. There was also a witness statement. It was not a 911 call. It was a statement given. So there was somebody else that came forward to talk to police. And you got to think, you think about all the times that you've been out in a parking lot, or you may have heard something, and you didn't call 911. I mean, God bless these two people that contacted

the police and told them what they saw. And when I read this report of this other witness, they, he says that, you know, I observed a man and woman appear to have some sort of a fight. They were talking aggressively with each other and something seemed off. It was, it was that it was just something about the fight that he saw. And this person, I don't believe, saw any physical, real physical altercation like the person who called 911. But for somebody to have that sense of something seemed off, I need to raise my hand and say something is really incredible and so important moving forward, you know, like all of us to realize that information and

think about how you can help in the future. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another thing we are learning, and I'm going to throw this to Cheryl McCollum, and I also want to go back to Dr. Priya Banerjee and Dale Carson regarding the, all the way out there in an RV to the Tetons, to Yellowstone, across the country. It's a trek. You're out there, and you get locked out of your van, which is your home, and you don't have your phone. Because we are now getting reports, and I'm quoting,

according to a witness identified as Chris, Ms. Petito was said to have asked Laundrie why he had to be so mean because Laundrie fought, quote, aggressively over her cell phone during the Moab, Utah argument. He was fighting to get her cell phone. Why did he need the van, the key to the van? She's locked out and he's trying to take her cell phone too. What was on that cell phone?

We know she had been texting her mother about their strained relationship as the trip wore on. He wanted her to have no contact with her family. He didn't want her to post anything, send anything, call anybody. That, again, is abuser 101 behavior. This is straight out of the domestic violence playbook. Straight out of it. Karen Stark joining me. Absolutely.

Psychologist in New York. When I first started working at the Battered Women's Center as a volunteer, we had to go to training, training, training. And that's one of the first thing you hear in every phone call. He tore the phone out of the wall. He took my cell phone. He won't let me contact my family. He gets mad when I speak to my mother, blah, blah, blah. It's all about not contacting family and control. And here he is in the van. He's got her locked out of the van. She's trying to crawl over him through the driver's window. And they're fighting because he won't give her her phone and it's her van. And I have no doubt, Nancy, that that, as I said before, that that had to have been going on

between the two of them. If you just watch what's happening, what would make this policewoman say to her, maybe you want to stay out of this relationship. Maybe you want to rethink this. She was picking up on the fact that something was really wrong. He wants to cut off all communication because he doesn't want her saying what's happening. He doesn't want the family to have any kind of control over her because it breaks his power. And his power is to be in charge and to make her feel like there's something wrong with her. Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, we've got Laura Engel, Fox Senior News Correspondent, joining us outside the Teton County Medical Examiner's Office, the Coroner's Office. Take a listen to our friends at ABC7.

Back on the East Coast, 500 miles away from the Carlton Reserve, the search for Brian Laundrie took police Tuesday into Okaloosa County, Florida. A resident in Baker notified police after capturing an image of a man fitting Laundrie's description on his trail camera on September 20th. The Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office says they did an extensive search of the area and found nothing of note. When we asked the department if this could be considered a sighting of Brian Laundrie, a spokesperson said until Brian is located and in custody, the possibility hasn't been ruled out. At Brian's parents' home in Northport, Florida, all was quiet Tuesday until the late afternoon when Brian's father, Christopher Laundrie, left the house and returned a short time later.

I've got so many questions. How did Laundrie get out of that house undetected by police and the press that have had a ring of cameras, including staking out in the backyard to go on his walkabout. Was he ever there? I have no doubt that he did, or I think he did, drive the van back, okay, from where it was. Or did one of the parents do it? Anyway, the van edges into town about 10 30 a.m coming off i-75

and the tag is caught on a tag grabber so i know that but once he's at the home we think september 1st nobody's seen him did he leave then because he's got quite the lead on the cops. Latest thing, Dale Carson, joining me out of Florida. We are talking about the Florida panhandle where Alabama and Florida curve around. My dad grew up in Hey Cody, which is near Enterprise, which is near Op, which is near Mobile. And we would spend every summer on the Florida panhandle. Now, did you know, Dale Carson, I don't know if you've seen this shot yet or not, but somebody caught an image on their deer cam, which is out in the middle of a forest land, early morning, around 6 a.m., looks just like Brian Laundrie.

And if you go to CrimeOnline.com right now, you'll see the comparison. There you see the backpack. I'll call him the deer hunter was wearing the guy walking in front of the deer cam. Looks just like Laundrie. You see his backpack. Beside it, you see a picture of his, Brian Laundrie's, backpack sitting in Gabby's van. They look the same. This is the first time I think we may have a laundry sighting.

I've got to look at it more closely and try to get that image enhanced. But tell me about Okaloosa County, Dale Carson. It is far west in Florida, and it's all swamp and hardwoods out that way, which obviously he's familiar with. The oddity is that it's about 490 miles from Northport. That's a long trek. He certainly had to have assistance getting there. And a good head start. Absolutely.

He did have. And he could well be in that area. But the odd thing is he's got to have money for food and other purposes. And where is that money coming from? Who's paying for that? He doesn't have a job right now. And they certainly didn't save that money working as a tech in a pharmacy or in Publix. So where is this money coming from?

His parents. Let me ask you a question, Jackie. Can you look up how far is it from Mobile, Alabama to Okaloosa County, Florida? Okay. Let's just, I guess what would be a good city spot in Okaloosa County, Florida. Okay, let's just, I guess, what would be a good city spot in Okaloosa County? Would you say Fort Walton or Destin? Yeah, Fort Walton.

Fort Walton, yeah. Let's go with from Mobile to Fort Walton because there was another sighting. Let me go back to Laura Engel, Fox News Senior Correspondent, joining us from Teton County ME's office, coroner's office. There's a difference between a coroner and an M.E. Laura, for all I know, he's been one hundred and two miles. Laura, I think it was the day before there was an alleged sighting of Brian Laundrie in and around Mobile, Alabama. And now we have an alleged sighting on the deer cam in Oklosa County.

That's only 100 miles. You know, last night, all of us here, all the reporters and producers, our phones were going off. There was reports of this police scanner, possible Brian Laundrie sighting. And everybody was looking into it. We all called the police, reached out to family, and everybody heard the same thing. And it was that glimmer of hope, but then it was discounted just like the other one. And, you know, somebody said that they need to, you know, when we're looking at men who have lost their hair and who are of this height or

walking around with a backpack, there's a lot of people that fit that description in the United States right now. So it, you know, it's, it's important to call those tips in, but it did give everybody a flutter of hope yesterday. And it is important to note. I mean, we've been talking about it that the FBI continues to ask people about calling in tips. If you were in this area. And the one thing I want to mention, I, I, I didn't know that you had RV'd here. I have never been here. It's the most spectacular, beautiful place you've

ever seen. And it is packed. All of the hotels, no vacancy. It is absolutely swarming with campers and hikers and people taking pictures. And that is what they're looking for. They're looking for people, obviously everywhere, but specifically here because they want to see if they can follow any kind of lead from any kind of sighting. And certainly before the alleged crime occurred and after so that they can find out maybe which way he went. You know, when you look at that van video from that YouTuber and she's going down the road and you see it. Somebody backed up that. I don't know if you've seen this video, but somebody backed it up a few seconds before and you can see the van doors closing. They were open. You can see them closing. And then the woman drives by and spots the van. So it needs to be authenticated. But if that's the case, then somebody was in the van, we've seen her flip

flops outside of the van. That timeline is just all so important. But people just need to continue to call in those tips. crime stories with nancy grace laura angle i find that very critical what you just said i had read a report where the witness saw the back of the van door close abruptly is how it was described. Could you repeat that really slowly for me? Because I'm furiously taking notes on everything you say. Everybody, Laura Engel joining me there in Wyoming about what, who, what, where, why, when. Who saw it, where why when who saw it where when and it's significant to me because they went

when they went by the van it looked as if it were abandoned so if the door shut then why why are they basically hiding in there with all the lights off and no movement you tell it laura angle really slowly for me well what, what happens is, is this woman, and we've had her on our air, and a lot of people have interviewed her. You may have too, from the Red, White, and Bassoon. She's the YouTube insider who provided this critical tip. And when you go to the before and after zoomed in stills that are seconds apart. It happens really, really fast. So, and IRV too. And so like you put your, you put your GoPro on the dash and you, you know, you take these beautiful pictures of what your trails look like and the road to go to your campsite. And that's

what this woman did. And what we have seen repeatedly in the news coverage is that slowed down. There's the white van at this particular campground in the dispersed area, which as we now have all learned, that means that, you know, you just pull off. It's not a campsite that you go and you sign up for. But when they backed up that tape, somebody slowed it down and took some stills. The back of the van doors were open. And as the vehicle is approaching with this YouTube blogger coming down the road, all of a sudden, the back doors quickly shut closed. Now, had anything happened at that point? We don't know. But it is an indication that that van wasn't abandoned. It was, there was somebody in it. We just don't know, you know, did a crime occur before, during, after?

We just don't know. But I can tell you that our cameraman, one of them went over to the site yesterday, and we were talking about where the body was in proximity to where that van was spotted. So it goes van, brush, creek, and then on the other side of the creek is where her body was found, reportedly by a log. So the idea that she had been just put on the other side of a log is just heartbreaking. And again, the activity and the weather and the heat and the cold. And now they've opened up that campsite. And that's the other part that still,

I find, I guess you have to open it up at some point, but people are just walking around. They know that that's where she was found and they had to open it back up. But again, back to the doors. I mean, you see those doors open and they're open, then they're shut quickly. You should look at the tape because it's pretty dramatic. Hold on. Hold on, Dale Carson. So I got to clarify something Laura Engel just told me so I understand it. So you've got Gabby's van and then to the left of the van is the brush, then the creek, then on the other side of the creek, you have Gabby's body found by a log or is it to the right of the van? It's my understanding that it was to the left.

That's the photo I saw. That's what I saw from the video too, but I wanted to make sure because the YouTuber, Red, White, and Bethune, driving along and the van's on the left and there's a creek to the left, but I wanted to make sure I didn't have it reversed somehow. You know, when it goes on TV, things get twisted around. Okay, got it. Dale Carson, high profile lawyer, Jacksonville, former FBI agent, jump in.

There's another point here. The van life people keep all their doors open and they spend a lot of time with the doors open so they can see the view and they park in areas where they can get that view. And that none of that happened here. And it's unusual to have people living in a van, keep it all closed up, particularly when the weather is not inclement. So that's Cheryl McCollum jump in. I think it's important to the timing, the day that this happened and relationship to where her body was found. It's pretty much A to B.

What was the date, Laura Engel? Did we have a range of dates that Red, White, and Bethune made the video, or do we have it narrowed down to one particular day? Not only particular day, particular time. August 27th, about 6 p.m. So that is that and that is what helped authorities get over to that area and say, OK, here's the campsite. Here's our bullseye. You know, the van was gone when they got there, but this is where they started. And then they spread out and, you know, went out into a circle and just did a grid search around there. But yeah,

August 27th, 6 p.m. And that is why the FBI continues to say, if you were in this area between August 27th, August 30th, anywhere in this timeframe, we want to see your photos. Did you take a photo by that pretty creek? And what's in the background? That's what they're looking for. Because you know, I've noticed, Laura Engel, if one person's taking a photo out camping,

then all of a sudden everybody's going to that same spot. If I take a photo, I had some great photos of us in the Tetons. I don't know where all of a sudden I didn't even see these people on the hiking trail. All of a sudden they're taking the same shot and I do the same thing. I see people taking a photo. I'm like, oh, that must be a good vista. I'm running over there. Same thing.

And they're right. Anybody there, if you took a shot along this creek, who knows what could be in the background. I broke in on you, Cheryl McCollum. What were you saying? I'm just saying, again, where the van was, where her body was, that's A to B as the crow flies. Again, they're going to be able to see drag marks. They're going to be able to see items on her body from foliage and that dirt or soul. When was the fake text?

Anybody remember the fake text about no cell service? 28th and 30th, I believe. Thank you. Laura, is it 28th or 30th that we get the fake text about? 30th. And that's the one where it says no cell service Yosemite? Yes. Right.

Okay. Dale Carson, you want in? Yeah. Well, that's exactly right. That particular transmission came from much further west, which doesn't make sense because, of course, he didn't travel that way or that van did not travel back that way because that would require them to take the phone almost to san francisco i'm sorry la is there any possibility someone else drove the van back and not him laura angle well sure i mean that and that's what they're looking. And when we're following along the path and you look at the areas that

somebody would have driven the van, I mean, those toll cameras, the gas stations and there's, and there's all this chatter with the citizen detectives out there on, on all of these social media platforms and the pictures of his tattoos on his fingers and on his hands, everybody's like, look for people pumping gas that might have this tattoo. Go back in your memory, even your pictures there. But hopefully their surveillance pictures of the van had to get gas at some point. And that's, you know, what Dr. Michael Bodden told us last night was in terms of the DNA testing,

they got to do it. And all signs point to Brian. But, you know, is there a third party DNA? Probably not. But they have to look at it. And Dr. Priya, what do they mean? What did Laura Engel mean when she said the medical examiner is now looking for microscopic evidence?

What do they mean by that? Fibers? DNA? They would look for any kind of trace evidence on the body, just integral to the autopsy. And then when I think microscopic, maybe they are trying to look better at the tissues under the microscope itself. Nancy, I got to jump in here.

Good job. The dirt and soil is going to be critical. So when you think of the top layer, that top layer of soil is different than when you get down to the subsoil. So when that part of the earth has been cut through that ravine, the dirt on top where she would have started and where she ended up is different. And they're going to take those samples of different parts of her body to show she didn't walk or jump or slip. They've got to determine too whether or not she was sexually assaulted before she was killed. That's another important aspect that we've overlooked all together. Karen Stark, final thought? Well, I think that if you take a look, Nancy, it's just incredible how people are so engaged in this case and relate to it and think this could happen to me, this could happen to my child, that they were chronicling everything that was happening, that Gabby was doing that. And in a way, I feel like it's a message from Gabby to keep searching to end her story for someone to figure this out and it's just incredibly amazing wonderful that everyone's trying so many people are trying

to figure out what happened to her this is what we know now Brian Laundrie on the run. Multiple sightings. Are they real? As Gabby's body remains at the Teton County Morgue. We wait as justice unfolds. It's not over yet. If you think you have information, dial 1-800 call FBI

1-800-225-5324. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.