Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - GET OUT OF JAIL FREE! Dangerous new laws put perps out on the streets!

Episode Date: May 16, 2018

A nationwide effort is making it easier for criminal defendants to get out of jail free if they can't afford to post a cash bond, but Nancy Grace warns about the dangers of opening the jail doors for dangerous people to walk out. Nancy discusses the controversy with Beth Chapman, star of TV's "Dog the Bounty Hunter and president of Professional Bail Agents of the U.S., star of reality TV, Georgia bail agent Scott Hall, defense lawyer Jason Oshins, and CrimeOnline reporter Jennifer Dzikowski. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Truthfinder. Truthfinder may reveal court records, bankruptcies, contact information, social, dating profiles, assets, and a lot more. You get it all in one easy to read report. Why fork out thousands of dollars to a private eye when you can do the job yourself? Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. How many stories have you read about where there was a violent crime, a child molestation, a rape, a murder, or worse, if you can imagine it, only to discover the perpetrator was out on bond at the time of the offense, the revolving door in our justice system resulting in more and more violent crimes on innocent victims. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

An all-star lineup with me now to address the most recent string of attacks by people out on bond. While at this moment, so-called bail bond reform is sweeping the country, which allows people who commit a crime to walk free with nothing more than a piece of paper in their hand. No accountability as more victims are added to the list of statistics. With me, star of reality TV, the president of professional bail agents of the u.s beth chapman also with me defense lawyer jason oceans practicing in multiple jurisdictions juvenile judge founder of childcrimewatch.com ashley wilcott crime stories investigative Crime Stories investigative reporter Jennifer Tsikowski and with me, bail bondsman Scott Hall. Everyone, welcome.

First of all to you, Jennifer, I want to talk about first Ed French. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. Why does he factor in to this scenario. So this story starts with 19-year-old Lamonte Mims and 20-year-old Fantasy Decor in San Francisco. Lamonte Mims, he had been caught breaking into cars in Twin Peaks in November of 2016. He served a mere three months in jail. Then, on July 4th, he was busted yet again, this time for gun possession and parole violations, not small charges. Only seven days later, on July 11th, he was let out on an assertive case management, a pretrial program requiring check-ins. They actually trusted this man to do check-ins.

The judge in that case was following the public safety assessment, which is also called the PSA score. Then only five days later after that, Nancy, a very talented, by all accounts, successful and good-hearted man, Ed French. He was an avid photographer in San Francisco. He was presumed to have been sitting against a wall, taking beautiful shots down Market Street. Jennifer, you're talking about a world-renowned photographer, Ed French, who was photographing a sunrise at twin peaks and this man and woman sneak up on him and murder him on the spot just to steal his camera and his honda accord officers make a desperate plea for tourists that may have video footage around that time and it was 7 50 in the morning i mean come on beth chapman you're the reality star everybody you know dog

the bounty hunter this is beth chapman dog's wife who was his co-star for many many years now the president of the professional bill agents of the u. At 7.50 in the morning, I'm driving the children to school. I've been up since five working, and these two are crawling up the side of a mountain so they can murder somebody, a professional photographer, world-renowned. This is why we need accountability, Beth. Absolutely. He should have been in jail. There's no way that he should have gotten out a second time nor the third time. And, you know, the thing about it is a lot of these people have underlining problems, and they don't realize those guys are up all night long. They're up all night long. You know, they're not sleeping.

So, you know, we used to call that tweak time. You know, it's when they really don't know what time it is. They don't know where they are or what they're doing, and they just commit basically crime after crime after crime. You know, and that's the problem with all of these pretrial movements is that there's no stopgaps. There's no common sense parameters that basically say, you know, look, if you're on bond already, you don't get another one. If you fail to appear already, you don't get one. If you're just been convicted of a crime, you're not getting one. And that's what's really bothersome

about the whole system. Well, this guy was only about a half a mile from his own home. And he's out, this professional photographer. He was a 71-year-old man. He's been a world-renowned photographer for years and years and years. And these two sneak up on the guy, murder him, shoot him in the head for his camera,

and as Honda Accord, Jason Oceans, how can you, as an upstanding and very well-known defense attorney, support the so-called bond reform, where people basically, for a lot of different crimes, get a ticket and walk free they don't have to post any bond and they just walk free there's no it's like a pinky promise jason oceans nancy we know that uh anyone who's arrested is presumed innocent under the law and of course may in fact be innocent uh most plead guilty just to get out that's a repulsive practice i mean i could cite many cases of uh you know a single mother in harris county texas who was arrested driving without a valid license judge set her bail at 2500 she couldn't afford anything but see that's

not the issue we're talking about that's not that's not the issue we're even talking about jason i'm not talking about a traffic violation. I'm talking, Nancy, about valid bail reform and the heinous cases that we could all point out, just like in Ed French. There is the opposite side of misdemeanor cases, and so many are locked up. Well, of course, you've done a great job, Jason, of smoke and mirrors, taking it off what we're talking about, violent offenders getting out and then repeat offending while they're on bail, while they're on bond. And with me, two stars, Beth Chapman and Scott Hall in the industry. Respond, please, Beth. Well, I would like to discuss this with Jason, obviously, because, you know, there's an underlining crime here, okay? And whether it's a misdemeanor or not a misdemeanor, we can't just

excuse the fact that this mother, the single mother, as you said, was driving her car without a license. That's a crime. It's a crime, okay? And so what all of these, you know, leftist people are boasting is that we should just turn a blind eye because it's a minor crime. We should just turn a blind eye because it was, you know, a driving offense. You know, multiple driving offenses becomes a habitual traffic offender. That becomes a prisonable offense. You know, we cannot just continue to just say, oh, it was just a minor crime. Just let him go because there's victims involved.

Well, wait a minute, Beth. Let me one-up you on this. Let me one-up you on this. Does the name Timothy McVeigh ring any alarms, any bells in your heads? He was stopped on a traffic infraction. Scott Hall, we all know that. He's the OKCity bomber. He brought down a whole federal building.

So I'm not saying I want people in jail for a traffic offense. That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is don't make light of those traffic stops. I'm focusing on people that commit a crime, a substantive crime, and then they walk free. And this bail reform idea is a horrible idea. It's really an attack on the victims. I mean, victims are the ones that are, in fact, denied justice when individuals fail to appear. Bail is about one thing. It's about getting someone to appear in court. And I'm so glad he brought up Harris County, Texas, because the assertions in Harris County when they put forth the injunction, they said there would be no difference in the appearance rate, no difference. And right now, they just attempted to file an injunction because full of one half of their calendar, almost 50% of the people that are charged with a crime are failing to appear in court.

50% of the victims, and you may think just because it's nonviolent, but the poor black and brown victims of crime that live in the project, that have their window broke out of their car, that have their rent money stolen, okay, they're the ones that are being affected. They're the ones that are being victim. They're the ones that are being victimized a second and a third time. And they're the ones that are going to take the law in their own hand. And that mother that depends on that money that was stolen, that the proponents of this change are saying we're helping, you're harming the very people that you say you're advocating for. Okay, we're over here advocating for the law-abiding people and the victims of crime.

Well, I'll tell you what concerns me. Over and over again. Ashley Wilcott, this is what disturbs me. In addition to Beth Chapman, star of reality TV, dog bounty hunter, Jason Ocean's lawyer, Jennifer Tsikowski, crime stories investigative reporter, and heavy.com, Steve Hall, Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder of childcrimewatch.com. When I hear all the ACLU and the defense attorneys and the politicians are for it, half the politicians are defense lawyers, all right?

So when I hear they're for it, what does that mean to me? It means it's bad for crime victims. And as a matter of fact, guess who else is against it? California judges, judicial societies all across the country are coming out against so-called bail bond reform. Explain why it is so wrong, Ashley. So from the judge's perspective, there are two reasons. Number one, it does not take into account the victim. It does not take that into account. Number two, remember this, Nancy, I've been involved in a lot of legislation down at the Capitol. And here's the thing. Most of these proposed pieces of legislation, these included, are knee-jerk reactions by some person who's decided it's a great idea and it's not well thought out research

based on empirical research or data to ensure that victims are protected. And that's what needs to happen that hasn't in proposed legislation like this. You know, back to you, Beth Chapman, star of Dog the Bounty Hunter. This is Dog's wife. I don't like introducing you that way as somebody else's wife. You were also the president of the Professional Bail Agents of the U.S. Beth, when I would get ready, every prosecutor that was actually a trial lawyer, you know, and actually appeared in court, had to do bond hearings as well. For a bond hearing, I may bring on a witness that saw or was a victim of the crime, a cop. I would have the rap sheet, the state rap sheet, and the federal

rap sheet of defendants trying to get out, suspects trying to get out. And I would discuss all the reasons somebody should or shouldn't get out of bond. Are they a risk, a flight risk? Are they a threat to the community? Will they tamper with witnesses? Is it in the cause of justice that they get out? There are a lot of prongs to a bond hearing. The judges are saying this, Beth, the judges are saying that they propose this because they have their own standards about who walks free. Quote, those arrested for selling drugs, identity theft, vandalizing homes, businesses, stealing huge sums of money, burglarizing, all of these people will be granted pretrial release without ever appearing in front of a judge. I don't want to see that person walking across my backyard, Beth Chapman.

Well, repeatedly walking across your backyard. So right after you get him arrested, he comes right back. I mean, that's the biggest problem with this. But, you know, taking the judge's discretion out of the equation is never going to be a good idea. And, you know, for people who just continue to say the bail bondsman, they're just making money off the poor. Well, so are the lawyers. You know, lawyers aren't giving their practices away for free. I'm sure your defense attorney here on the line, I'm sure he charges money.

You know, so it's all smoke and mirrors, like you said before. It is a socialist idea. It's a basic a hug-a-thug campaign that is trendy right now because they have gone down and they have convinced lawmakers and they've convinced mayors of towns that they could save so much money by releasing these people from jail. But the fact is, is that they have to have more pretrial workers to take care of the massive amount of people that they're releasing. So there is no money saved, because all they're doing is taking it out of the jail column and putting it into the pretrial column.

Is that Scott Hall? Jump in. Nancy, it's important to understand in Harris County, Texas, the judges are the ones that are fighting this reform. The judges are the ones that are encouraging the county to continue because they now see what's happening to their calendar. And the proponents of these reforms typically take basically an exception. They look for a very, very narrow exception. Someone that might, and rather than basically fighting for a safety net, okay, some sort of safety net to take care of these, they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And what they're doing is they're victimizing, again, the very constituents they advocate for. And that's the poor black and brown members of our society that need help that don't have an advocate. And that's what we are pushing for.

The bondsmen, in many cases, are the way for these people to get out. They're not rich. When they don't have money for a bond, they, in fact, come to us to help them finance it. We don't set the bond. We're not the people that says release them. A judge does that. And they even advocate for these algorithmic releases in attempt to replace. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Ashy Wolcott, you're a victim's advocate like myself. I don't want somebody, an offender,

walking free based on a logarithm. No, no, no. And But here's the thing, Nancy. If they would be deliberate in this, they could come up with a risk assessment based on empirical research and data that a judge could do with the judge's discretion and still protect those in society that will be harmed by these continuing criminal perpetrators. Did you know about a recent law that could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet has created a dangerous new world.

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You also get free dark web monitoring to make Truthfinder the ultimate tool in identity protection. If your personal info appears for sale on the dark web, you'll be the first to know. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Let me go back to Jennifer Tsikowski with Heavy.com and Crime Stories investigative reporter. I believe you have another case where the guy's out on bond and commits a serious offense. I sure do, Nancy. And this one is absolutely horrifying. Shook me to my core.

This starts with Cherish Periwinkle out of Jacksonville, Florida, an innocent 8-year-old girl. Cherish was at Dollar General. She was shopping with her mother, Rain Perry Winkle, and two sisters when a man approached them. This man was Donald Smith. He seemed like a really good man to Cherish's mother. He befriended her and then made what the mother thought was a generous offer to buy the girl's clothes with a $100 gift card that he said he had for Walmart. He also claimed that his wife was going to meet the family at Walmart. So this mother, Rain Periwinkle, said she told him, I don't go with strangers, but if your wife is coming, then it's going to be okay. She made it up in her mind, you know, it'll be fine.

Rain, Periwinkle, gathered her children into Smith's white van for a ride to Walmart. Surveillance video at the store showed Rain, the girls, and smith shopping at walmart for over an hour in that time period cherish periwinkle the eldest of the three daughters she went with donald smith several times over this shoe section of the store the mom later said she didn't think much of it because she felt she was in a safe place being in Walmart. Rain watched Cherish, her beloved daughter with Donald Smith, walk away and heartbreakingly she had no idea, she didn't realize this was going to be the last time that she would ever see her daughter. She went to meet Donald at the registers just as the store was closing to presumably buy these clothes for the children.

And lo and behold, Donald doesn't show up. At that point, the red flags went up and she called 911 and reported her daughter Cherish as being kidnapped. It then seems Rain really had a premonition when she told the 911 operator in her words, I hope to God he doesn't kill her. I hope to God he doesn't rape her. I don't understand why he would have left right now unless he's going to rape and kill her. That's the only reason. So this poor and all too trusting mother told the operator that the only reason she let Donald Smith do this is because her girls truly needed the clothing. Well, I think we all know the rest of that story, Jason Oceans.

Cherish Periwinkle was raped and murdered and the killer had been really the recipient of the revolving door justice. He would go in and out for stalking children, for child pornography, for raping young girls. He had been in and out and in and out of the system. Jason, he was out. Why was he out? And with him in mind, why in the world would we even consider people walking free without posting bail or bond and going through the bond and bail process? You sign a piece of paper, you walk out, you pinky swear, you'll show back up and you'll behave. It doesn't work that way. This guy was out and he murdered Cherish.

Weigh in, Scott. I would like to make the point about it's not only about these horrendous crimes that we all should agree that these people shouldn't be roaming the streets at all. But let's just take the change that the city of Atlanta just recently made on misdemeanor shoplifting. You've got charges. You can go into a Lowe's and steal $500, steal a toolbox, walk out. And if you get caught, City of Atlanta won't even send a police officer to your store. And if their security takes you to the City of Atlanta and they book you in and you're charged, they release you immediately. Okay. No finding of fact, no criminal history. They release you immediately. And if you fail to appear, they don't have a fugitive squad

that chases people on these misdemeanor charges. So they're hoping some other agency will accidentally catch you. So you're roaming. Now let's assume Hall County, which is over 50 miles from the city of Atlanta, accidentally stops you. City of Atlanta won't even send two officers to pick you up over 50 miles because it's not a justifiable use of resources. It is absolutely insane that they would in fact set these policies basically encouraging people to commit because you're harming people that have businesses. You wonder why these dollar generals and places close in these poorest of neighborhoods? Because they're stolen to death, and you lose those jobs, and you lose that vital business in that community. We are enabling, if not encouraging,

bad behavior. And that's what the criminal justice system is supposed to community. We are enabling, if not encouraging, bad behavior. And that's what the criminal justice system is supposed to deter. We're supposed to say, no, this is not conduct. And unfortunately, the laws in our country are merely becoming suggestions. You don't see these suggestions in these other countries. You know, if you break the law, you stay in jail. In our country, we say it's no big deal. You know what's interesting? Back to Beth Chapman, star of Dog the Bounty Hunter, president of Professional Bail Agents of the U.S. You're going to laugh, Beth, and this is anecdotal. This is not a statistic that I've come up with. But I recall every time when I first came as a new prosecutor and I would hear the older seasoned veterans say, oh, peeping Tom. And I would at first thought, well, peeping Tom's a misdemeanor.

It's nothing. So you peeked in a window. Guarantee you, Beth, a peeping Tom graduates. I can't explain it. I'm not a shrink. But they turn into a rapist or a felony voyeur. I mean, I can't describe it. But what I'm saying.

Talker. Yes, you're right, Jason. What I'm saying is that's a misdemeanor. Right. But I know the psychopathy of a peeping tom turns into a felon i mean like look at btk dennis raider buying torture kill he was a dog catcher okay he had little things that people thought were odd his whole life little did they know he's a serial murderer and i'm not saying that people

with a traffic violation because jason ocean's going to get all tuned up about that lady with the traffic violation i'm ready to go what i'm saying is beth chapman is that you let people walk on all of these offenses some of them not really misdemeanors, without some kind of security or some kind of vetting process, we're unleashing a whole can of hurt on the innocent public, Beth. But Nancy, Nancy, now what you're talking about. You are not Beth. You are Jason Oceans. Hold on. Go ahead, Beth. Ladies first. Well, you know, look, we're taking away accountability, but what we're also doing is we're taking away, you know, parental judgment. Okay.

There are people in this country that will, you know, people will say, you know, the guy is in jail because he's poor. They can't come up with the money. It's not always true that they can't come up with the money. Sometimes their parents, they can't come up with the money. It's not always true that they can't come up with the money. It's sometimes their parents don't want to come up with the money. Sometimes their family and their loved ones are sick of them. And they know how much trouble they've been in. They know how much drugs they're doing on a day-to-day basis. And sometimes these people are glad when they finally find out that their loved one is in jail because that may be the only thing that saves them. And basically what we're doing right now is we're not even giving them a chance to even get clean or get sober and let the family have a chance to be able to talk to him and say, OK, look, we'll bond you out.

But these are going to be the new rules. You know, like there's no way to even control these people. And quite honestly, and you know, no disrespect, Jason, but I got to tell you, the criminal element of this country is laughing at us. They are laughing in the face of the judges. They are laughing. They cannot believe how dumb we are that we're just letting them out with no bond. Well, hold on, hold on. Out to bail bondsman, Scott Hall. Weigh in, Scott. Yes. Well, let's just take, again, the city of Atlanta. The city council did a study not too long ago, and they said, just tell us about what's going on with recidivism. They found out, they did a study that a little over 400 people accounted for over 14,000 crimes. Okay?

Now, just imagine what impact we could have had on the victims of crime if we just kept these 400 people off the streets. You know what? Here's a perfect example, Ashley Wilcott. I'm going to go to Jennifer Zagowski on this, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Ronnie Pershing Grantham drove 10 miles the wrong way on interstate 640 while he's free on bond for allegedly killing two women drugged behind the wheel okay he's out on bond for killing two women and then he's driving 10 miles the wrong way on the interstate

where everybody's going 70, 80, 90 MPH. Help me understand why that's okay. That is absolutely not okay in my mind. These two women, Jeanette Hurst, only 54 years old, Tammy Short, 53. They lost their lives. And while this investigation was ongoing, he was released on bond. Not to mention, Nancy, officers found prescription painkillers and not just, you know, anything small. It was morphine, oxycodone, and Valium in his possession after that crash. And as you know, it didn't end there. Despite that, he was indicted and let out on a $500,000 bond. In April, just this past April, he crashed his truck into two vehicles as he yet again

drove the wrong way. He drove east in the westbound lanes on Interstate 640 in Tennessee for 10 miles in the early morning hours. He had been traveling east in westbound lanes. He hit another vehicle, and this monster didn't stop there. Ten miles later, he hit a tractor trailer. The second crash caused Branton's truck to catch fire, and he was rescued by a passerby. Not sure how I feel about that part. And by the grace of God, Nancy, neither of the two drivers who he struck were injured. But why was he out?

How on earth in this wonderful country that I knew as a child is this happening? What is going on in this country, and why are these dangerous people being let out? Now, let me ask you something to Beth Chapman, star of reality TV and president of Professional Bail Agents of the U.S. Beth, what is the purpose, in a nutshell, of the bail bond system why do we need it well the main reason for the bail bond system is to ensure the person's appearance in court you know this is a user-funded service where if you get in trouble we'll help you get out but we have to make sure that you return back to court and if they don't return back to court then we go out at no cost to the taxpayer and we bring them back to the. And if they don't return back to court, then we go out at no cost to the

taxpayer and we bring them back to the jurisdiction of the court. And if not, we pay the full amount of the bond to the court. Nancy, I'd like to make a comment. This is Scott. Sure. And, you know, because if you go back in time, you know, it was really the intention of the founders when you're accused with breaking the law, you're charged with, in fact, committing a crime. It was really the intention of the founders when you're accused with breaking the law, you're charged with, in fact, committing a crime. It was their intention that you sit in jail until your court date unless you could create some kind of guarantee. And typically it was your employer, your family member. They wanted a third party. They said, all right, there is the presumption of innocence, but there's also the rights of the society and victims. So we need to balance those

two. So if we're going to release you until we wait for the judge to ride up on a horse, we in fact want some kind of guarantee that the victim will actually get justice. And we've been throwing, we act like the victims have no rights. So the only purpose of bail is in fact to ensure their appearance. So society at large, and most importantly, the victim of that crime, and it doesn't have to be murder or rape. If you stole my billfold, okay, and you broke the window of my car, if I am poor, okay, that may be my rent money for the month. It's about justice for the victim. And nobody gets justice if the accused doesn't show up. And as the example I gave you in the city of Atlanta, these cities and counties

don't have the resources to re-arrest people again and again and again on these minor crimes. So society has always depended on, since government can't figure out, okay, who's going to appear and who's not going to appear, they say, well, they need some skin in the game. And that's why you want the family to come to the table. You want a third party, like a bonding company, to put something of value, and that value differs. What might be sufficient in my case might not be sufficient in Michael Jackson's case. Ashley Wilcott, I want to put another case to you. It's out of Rossford, and this is a guy that previously had no criminal record. thought he was a great guy okay his name is Avery M Schwartz and he had been out on a hundred thousand dollar bond on rape and you know

what happens while he's out on bond on a hundred thousand dollar. That means he only has to put up $10,000. He's arrested by Toledo police that Saturday, charged with another rape. Now, this is after 10 to 15 letters from relatives to the judge saying what a great guy he is and vouching for him. He pled no low, no contest,

and was found guilty of rape, a first-degree felony. But at the time, he was out on bond, Ashley, out on bond. Why? Here's what doesn't make sense to me. As a judge, I have to balance the risk of the danger posed to society and the likelihood the defendant is going to return to court against the safety of releasing that defendant on bond and ensuring that that defendant will come back to court. You have to look at the actual crime, rape, but also is it a misdemeanor? Is it a felony? This was a first degree felony. And so the bond

amount, when I hear that set of facts, to me is way too low because the likelihood, we all know statistically, and if you read about criminals who rape, it's not about having sex. It's about the anger and all the other things behind it. And guess what they're going to do? They're one of the most likely to go out and commit that same crime again. So it doesn't make sense to me why that person was released on bond. And it's why courts have to have the discretion to do that balancing act to protect victims in society. Which is why I don't think algorithms work. Yes. With me is renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans. Jason, I hope you're also sitting down because one of his rape victims was one of the people that had written the character letter. He raped one of his references, according to police.

We're not going to find in any of these horrible stories anything good that we're going to talk about the justice system in general, whether it's judicial discretion or recidivism. These are, you know, broader strokes than just trying to narrow it down to a reformation of the bail system. But for each of these horrible stories of victims and recidivism, you're faced with, you know, those arrested first time on $3,000 of bail and wait three years before the charges are dismissed. You know, our justice system... You know what? You're right. I'm agreeing with you on that, Jason. That's why we don't need a blanket approach to crime. Because people that really don't have an offense and it's really just a traffic ticket, fine. But what about the other ones that walk free?

I'm not saying everybody's a criminal. I'm saying that this reform is no reform. And there are judges who are bad judges who've got different perspectives on the relationship of victims to society and the perpetrator. And they'll low bail, and they won't come back, and they'll commit more acts. So that's not within bail reform. That's on, you know, those judges that are either elected or appointed. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a risk assessment score that considers a person's flight, as the judge said, and danger to the community in her assessment. There's nothing

wrong with that and approaching misdemeanors. You don't need $2,500 for a first-time offense of driving without a license, notwithstanding Beth's point that it's a crime. Everything's a crime, from a B misdemeanor to a felony. Well, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, everything is not a crime. Minding your own business and working and taking care of your everything is not a crime minding your own business and working and taking care of your family is not a crime attacking other people murdering raping peeping tom the works those are crime everything is not a crime and frankly jason notions to side on the the to err on the side of caution i would be more draconian more strict to protect innocent victims than this blanket, open the doors and let everybody walk free.

But that's not the end of it. Beth Chapman, right now, a problem with Google? What's happening, Beth? Well, Google just recently announced that they will no longer take Google ads from our profession, from the bail industry, claiming that we are, you know, basic predators of the minorities and the challenged folks, you know. And they are basically saying that they will no longer allow us to run our advertising on Google. And then Facebook came out and concurred with that. You know, so basically now we're talking about, you know, restricting a legal, legitimate, law-abiding mom-and-pop operation

to have been in existence since the founding of this country. And now they're being told that they can't advertise because, you know, Google doesn't agree that people should be incarcerated. But, you know, the unfortunate thing about that is it's not the bail agents who are incarcerating them. It's not the bail agents who are setting bail. We are a user-funded service that is a vital, important service, and we've been here in existence for more than 200 years. You know, the court sets the bond. The DAs set the pace for the case. We just assure and guarantee their appearance. That's the way it is. has no place on Facebook. Well, I think that you can go to Facebook and you can find a lot of predatory businesses being advertised there on a day-to-day basis.

And I feel that Google ads and Facebook have become too big, too powerful. They control too much of the market share. And it's easy for them to just start bullying people by saying, we're not going to let you advertise here anymore because we don't like you. We don't like what you do. Weigh in, Scott. Nancy, it's a very slippery slope when you've got someone as large as Google trying to make these policy decisions.

Assume what they're alleging is that the bonding community, which is in fact helping these poor people get out of jail or somehow taking advantage, well, are they going to stop allowing the lottery to advertise? Are they going to stop allowing criminal defense attorneys who in fact take advantage in their mind because they charge a fee? I mean, anybody that makes money, the critic, what about the banks? The bank charge you $30 and $40 for a $5 bad check that bounces. Okay. Is that usury? I mean, it's a very slippery slope that they're going down and they're in fact preventing these people that need us the most from obtaining their liberty because without companies willing to stand in their stead, basically, in many cases, if you've got someone, and we keep talking about these very large bonds. I mean, at the end of the day, I think our average bond in Georgia is about $1,500.

So the fee is $150. People should be up in arms when you see like that case in Bibb County, Georgia, where you had a woman who was pregnant delivering a pizza, OK, to a door and got beat up by the people that she delivered the pizza to. And they, in fact, released her on like a seventeen hundred dollar bond. I mean, that is insane. And, you know, for Google to basically to be influenced by these liberal groups that have no intention of focusing on the exceptions. Well, what it concerns me about, guys, and I'm going to throw this to Jason Oceans, who we've disagreed so far, Jason Oceans and Ashley Wilcott with me. Ashley, juvenile judge, Jason, defense lawyer,

Jason, an issue about not being able to advertise it on Google or Facebook. And I know they believe they have their reasons. But here's the deal. Preventing advertising does not reduce the need to make a bond. That's right. It's just going to make it harder to find a lender. I mean, bail bonding is legal in our country. And even if reforms go through, the so-called reforms that I oppose, even if they go through, there's still going to be bail bonding on more serious crimes.

Not peeping Tom or not stealing a car maybe, but other crimes you still got to make a bond. Or you got to try to make a bond. Taking it off Google or Facebook, that makes people that do want to make a bond, it's going to be impossible for them. They can't find a bondsman because they can't get access to do it. Jason? No, I don't necessarily disagree with that. I mean, I don't know how the ad bans will affect bail bond agencies, bottom line, but I think the website will just have to still come up under. I'm not talking about bail bonds, but just because I've got two well-known bail bonds and I'm talking about people,

your clients that are trying to make a bond. Hey, for me, fine. Lock the door, keep them all in there until they plead guilty or they go to trial okay i'm okay with that but if you're going to make a bond there's no yellow pages yeah the yellow pages the what the what people go to google and you take this down how are your people going to get a bond jason they can't even google it most of the time bail bondsmen uh here in in New York City in the tri-state area, they're just right all over around the court. So I don't know that you have to go seeking and looking. They're just right there.

So self-advertising across the street. Well, the family that makes the bond, grandma that makes the bond, who's at home and she's telling her 15-year-old granddaughter, hey, what's a bond company that girl is going to go on her iphone like my 10 year olds do and they're going to look it up on google just like i do nancy i'm not i'm not against advertising i'm not against bail bonds uh when we're going to talk about bail reform, there's a lot more that intersects this, and it's comprehensive. So, you know, while you're taking the stories of evil that happen

in recidivism and those who are, you know, jumping bail. People that are out on bond that commit violent crimes? No one is supporting that aspect of our criminal justice system. And you well know, as a veteran prosecutor, the pluses and minuses of our system. So if we're going to do bail reform, we've got to do it comprehensively. Give the power back to the judges. I'm all about bail reform. I'm okay with bail reform,

but not this bail reform. I don't like what you're doing right here. But the other thing about not being allowed to advertise is is crazy ashley no the problem with that is here google is or any other company like that facebook whoever it is that says you can't advertise this service because we fundamentally disagree and we're on board with reform that has to happen before, is crap. It is using its power as a monopoly. It's not truly a monopoly, but look at the number of users, right? And everybody Googles everything to find out who they can use.

They are doing that in order to lobby. It's what their lobbyists should be doing at the Capitol, which is why I go back to my first statement, which, listen, if you want to change any type of legislation, has got to be deliberate and well thought out in order to ensure it's best for everyone's rights involved, including society, including victims. Well, here's another thing to you, Beth Chapman. Research shows that suspects released on commercial bail, in other words, somebody somebody be it them or their grandma or their mom or dad wife people that put up money or house bond bail are more much more likely to show

up for trial than their counterparts that are released in other ways not Not only that, bounty hunters are more likely than police to capture those people who jump bail. That's important. Why is that? Because most fugitive squads don't exist anymore. Cops are just trying to catch the new criminals. We don't have time to track down the ones that jump bond. That's where you come in. You know, definitely when you have some skin in the game and you have a stake in what's going on in your person's court case, you know, you are far more likely to get someone who's going to do what they're supposed to do. You know, there's thousands of times that I've had mercy on somebody who didn't have a cosigner, who didn't have the collateral to get out of jail, but we went ahead and just on their word, went ahead and let them out. I got to tell you, 50% of the time they let me down because when there's no stake in the

game, when there's nobody on the hook for them, they just don't go. They don't come to court. There's no repercussion. There's no deterrent. They have no reason to basically show up. You know, if they're poor, they're not going to show up anyway because they can't afford the fine that the court's going to give them. You know, they're better off to stay on the run for as long as they can. I mean, you know, we're really doing damage to our society. And I did want to just touch on the risk assessment tool that's been kicked around here. I don't agree with the risk assessment tool because of the way the risk assessment tool has been programmed and has been put out there. The people who are for this, the left, who are wanting us to, you know, go with the hug a thug program, they do not want

you to be able to ask. They don't want you to be able to consider the current charge that they're being charged with. And they don't want you to be able to look at any of their past criminal history. Now, you cannot judge a person or, you know, as the judges on the phone with us have said, you know, the discretion comes from knowing how many times the person has been arrested, how many times you've seen that person back in your courtroom, and how many times they actually did what you told them to do when you sentenced them the first however many times. That's why the judge's discretion is so important. You cannot replace the criminal justice system discretion with a button. That is not going to work. These are, this is criminal behavior.

This is people who, you know, do drugs and have altering and changing their mindset. They change their name. They change their number. They change two numbers in their social security number and they think they've gotten away with something. I mean, you know, it has taken us years. My husband is almost 40 years in the business and I'm just coming over 30. This is years and years and years of profiling the criminal element that basically tells us who we can and who we cannot get out of jail. Now handing this over to somebody with a six question questionnaire

that does not include, have you ever been convicted before in the past? Have you ever failed to appear in the past? You know, what's the severity of the crime that you're being charged with now? It is ludicrous to think that that algorithm, that risk assessment tool is going to be able to replace, you know, the human touch, the human nature, the people that are able to profile criminals for a living and to be able to base their decision on whether they, one, will reoffend, two, will come back, or three, will harm someone. And those are the main questions that need to be being asked. The risk assessment tool is a joke. Now, if they come

back with something better or they can make it better, then we would be in a different place, but we're not. So since we're not, we have to do this vigorously because otherwise all they're doing is painting everybody with the same broad strokes and everybody should be released on minor crimes. You just can't do that. It just doesn't make sense. Nancy, can I make a comment here? Sure. And, you know, they used to talk about, you know, who shows up, who doesn't show up. Now, well, now we've got the facts.

There was this case in Harris County, Texas, and they've been under an injunction. And now the proponents of all of these reforms that say there's absolutely no difference in the appearance rate and there should be no difference in the impact to the victims of crime have been shown horribly wrong. A 5% failure to appear rate when people have skin in the game and a 50% failure to appear rate. These are not me pulling. This has been now admitted into the record. And that's why the judges, not the bondsmen, the judges in Harris County are fighting this and are in fact fighting for this injunction. They're saying you're making a laughing stock of the entire criminal justice system. We've got 50% of the victims that, in fact, are being denied justice. And then you're placing the burden right back on the taxpaying community

to find that many of these law enforcement agencies don't have the resources to do what they currently do, much less chase down all of these misdemeanor offenders that are failing to appear. So what do you do? You allow these people to roam and commit more crimes. It is absolutely insanity and the facts are in. Well, right now, I think we all want what is best for the system and what is best for innocent victims. Beth Chapman, reality star, president of Professional Bail Agents of the U.S., Jason Oceans, Ashley Wolcott, Jennifer Skalsky, and Scott Hall. Thank you. Nancy Grace,

Crime Stories, signing off. This is an iHeart Podcast.