Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Girl, 12, Tied to Bedpost, CHEWS THRU RESTRAINTS, Mom/Brother DISMEMBERED

Episode Date: August 8, 2022

A 12-year-old Alabama girl is being hailed as a hero after she chewed through restraints that had kept her tied to bed posts for nearly a week. The girl ran from the home where she was held. A Good Samaritan saw the girl and stopped to help. 911 is called and police enter the home, after getting a warrant, and find the remains of two dismembered bodies... the girl's mother and brother.   Jose Paulino Pascual-Reyes, 37, is charged with capital murder charges and one count of first-degree kidnapping. Court documents say the girl told investigators she’d been drugged with alcohol and repeatedly assaulted. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Sheriff Jimmy Abbett -  Tallapoosa County, Alabama (since 1995), Tallaco.com Nicole Deborde Hochglaube - Criminal Defense Lawyer (Houston TX), Former Prosecutor, Twitter: @debordelaw, HoustonCriminalDefense.com Dr. Charles Heller - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist Specializing in Domestic Violence, Chief Forensic Consultant: Rockland County (New York) Forensic Mental Health Unit, Rutgers Biomedical and Health Sciences, Forensic-Psychology-Expert.com  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Gina Tron - Crime Reporter, Oxygen.com, Twitter: @_GinaTron, Author: "Star 67" and "Employment" on Amazon, GinaTron.net  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A 12-year-old little girl, a 12-year- old little girl found wandering down a roadway on the side of the roadway by herself, her braces on her teeth broken because she has been held hostage, tied to a bedpost for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to this. A horrifying case nearly 250 miles north of Mobile

where a 12-year-old girl was found walking alone and later led deputies to a gruesome discovery. The Tallapoosa County Sheriff's Office responded to reports of a young girl wandering alone County Road 34 by herself around 8 30 last night. According to court records the girl had been tied to a bed post for nearly a week and drugged with alcohol before managing to chew through her bindings and go for help. You're hearing our friends at WPMI walking alone on a rural road with her braces on her teeth all torn up where we believe she chewed through her restraints in order to get loose from the nightmare this little girl had endured. Again, I'm Nancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us.

What an all-star panel we have for you today. But before I go to the rest of the panel, I want to introduce a special guest joining us, the elected sheriff in Tallapoosa County, Alabama. He has been elected since 1995. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with us. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. Hey, good morning. You know, Sheriff, just when I think I've seen it all, having prosecuted in inner city Atlanta over a decade, something like this happens. And I find out sadly, I have not seen it all. I'm trying to understand what exactly happened. Sheriff, take a listen with me to Elizabeth White at WRBL. Sheriff, according to court documents, this 12-year-old juvenile was tied to a bedpost for about a week, was drugged allegedly with alcohol, but somehow was able to chew herself free from those restraints,

get out into that road and flag down help. Can you confirm that information that is in the court documents? Yeah, we stand by that affidavit to be able to procure the kidnapping points. Again with me, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, the elected sheriff in Tallapoosa County, Alabama. Sheriff, when did you first learn that a little girl was walking all by herself? And what highway was it, Sheriff? Highway 34. We're in the rural area.

It's just kind of southeast of Dayville, Alabama. We received a 911 call from a motorist that morning at about 826 a.m. reporting this young lady on the roadway near the residence. So we responded, law enforcement responded, and as a result of of the investigation the preliminary investigation and the information she provided for us we were able to procure a kidnapping first degree warrant sheriff what for those of uh our listeners and viewers that aren't familiar with that area and ps i don't know if you've ever heard of this place hey cody you ever heard of it? I have not. Okay. I'm so happy that I was able to stump you on something. My father is from Hey, Cody, Alabama. It is near OP, which is near Enterprise, which is near Mobile.

Now, that is a tiny spot when you have to go to three cities before you can get a location. I'm working up to the question. Highway 34. Tell me about that. Highway 34 is about 25 miles from the Auburn, Alabama area. We're about 80 miles south of Birmingham. And this is a rural area. We're known for the Lake Martin area that we have there. And we're about 50 miles south of Montgomery. So we're kind of east central Alabama,

almost to 60 miles from Columbus, Georgia. Got you. Yes. What is Lake Martin? It's a man-made lake, about 727 miles of shoreline there. It's in Tallapoosa, Coosa, and Elmore County, a large recreational area. Wow. So it's a spot where people come from all over the state to fish, swim, ski? Yes, ma'am. From the state and out-of-state people that are actually living in our county now. Now, you know, normally that'd throw a wrench in the works to have a tourist spot in the middle. And listen, I'm from rural Bibb County, not even near a city, 25 miles to Macon, which is in middle Georgia. I get it.

So right in the middle of a very rural area, very low population, very low crime, you've got a huge 700 square foot lake that draws tourists from all around, including other states. Now, Joseph Scott Morgan with me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a brand new hit series, Body Bags, with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart. That throws a wrench in the works when you have a big tourist spot like that. Yeah, yeah, it really does because you don't know where a lot of these people are coming from. You know, and Sheriff was right in mentioning that you've got all kinds of people that are not just coming in from Alabama and the local metro areas there, but from out of state. Lake Martin's a beautiful area. So, you know, it will attract people, say, for instance,

from Georgia that own properties over there and stay for long term or short term. So you can have transient population that comes in. And of course, that creates a headache for all the investigators involved in a case like this. You know, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with me, falling on the heels of Joe Scott Morgan. When I first realized what this means, I was prosecuting a case. It was a guy that was a serial killer. And at that point, I thought I could get him on one murder. But it was a Jane Doe. I didn't even know who the perp was yet. I had a Jane Doe found out in a field. No ID on her, nothing. But we were able to figure out, I was thinking, who's her boyfriend? Who's her husband? Who's her ex? Where does she work? Where does she live? Can I find

those things out? Maybe I can find the killer. Then I found out she had gotten off MARTA, the bus, downtown. No, it was Greyhound, Greyhound bus, downtown. She came out of the bus station, Sheriff. And that is when I learned you throw in airport, bus station, tourist attraction. Suddenly there goes your line of inquiry because now you have thousands of potential suspects. You wouldn't have if, say, a woman, a person was found dead in their home. When you throw in something like Lake Martin, you've got a lot more potential suspects. But let me get back to finding this 12-year-old girl. What is that?

Let's see, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Fifth grade? Almost sixth or seventh. I believe seventh grade. Completed the sixth grade and headed to the seventh. So just out of the sixth grade, 12 years old. Now, how did she get picked up, Sheriff? Well, basically, she wasn't picked up.

She was actually, when we got the call, law enforcement responded, our agency, and also another agency responded there and just detained her until our investigators got to the scene. And once they got to the scene and kind of debriefed her on the information that she could provide us. Sheriff, you went to the scene later. What did you observe? Was it on a lonely stretch of road? And I understand the motorist saw her. Was it a man or a woman that saw her?

We're not getting into that right now because we're still in the investigative stages. And so we have interviewed the person that actually saw her there. It is a rural area. It's not a heavy populated area. It is a through road. Like I said earlier, a lot of traffic going to the lake, going to Auburn. So it was about 826 when she actually called 911 and the agencies responded to gather information from her. 826 AM? Yes, ma'am. So somebody, a motorist comes along, sees the girl, and they don't take the girl anywhere. They just call 911, correct? That's correct.

That's the best thing. That's the very best thing because think about it, Sheriff, which I'm sure you already have. If the person, the Good Samaritan, puts the girl in the car and takes her somewhere, if this thing finally goes to trial, the perp could argue, oh, they did it. I didn't do it. That motorist did it. I know it sounds crazy, right? But they could argue, oh, they did it. I didn't do it. That motorist did it. I know it sounds crazy, right? But they could argue that. And if you get one crazy juror, you're screwed. Now, a lot of

lawyers talking in fancy Latin terms, but I'm telling you, you'd be screwed. So thank goodness that's what the motorist did. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking with the elected sheriff, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott out of Tallapoosa County. A 12-year-old girl is found with her braces all ripped up, walking along the side of a desolate rural highway. And this is what we learned. Take a listen to our friends at WSFA. It's a horrendous situation. Tallapoosa County Sheriff Jimmy Abbott says deputies got a call yesterday morning that a 12-year-old girl was wandering down the road here along County Road 34. Investigators say she was kidnapped.

We always say, say something, say something. We're very appreciative that the people that actually came, came forward. The 12-year-old girl, according to court records, had been tied up and drugged before managing to escape. Sheriff, what did the girl say had happened to her? Well, basically what she indicated as far as the complaints that we were actually doing, you know, that she indicated in there that she had been restrained to the bedpost for a week and gave the victim alcohol to keep her in a drug state as well as assaulted her in the head area. Wait, assaulted her in the head area?

You mean hit her in the head? Yes, ma'am. Was the little girl sex assaulted? We have no knowledge of that at this time. So in order to keep her sedated, the perp fed her alcohol and hit her in the head. That's what our complaint indicated, so that we could actually get the arrest warrant, yes. Sheriff, what condition was the girl in? She did not have any life-threatening injuries. She did receive medical attention, and then she was placed into the custody of the Alabama Department of Human Resources.

Did she have the wherewithal to tell you where this had happened? She did. She indicated that she was in an approximate location of the residence when we actually arrived on the scene, the officers arrived on the scene, and started gathering information from her in regards to this. Joining you right now, special guest, crime reporter from Oxygen.com. You can find her on Twitter at underscore Gina Tron, author of Star 67 and Employment on Amazon.

With me, Gina Tron. Gina, what do we know about that morning, 8.26 a.m., when the call comes in? After the call, what came in, the girl was taken to the hospital, and from there, investigators went, I believe the next day, they went to the home where she instructed them she was being held captive. Gina, do you know if it's been reported that the girl was sex assaulted? It was not reported that. However, the court documents say that the intent of the kidnapping was to, quote, violate or abuse sexually the victim.

Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, back to you. The girl was able to lead you back to the home where she says she was tied to the bedpost, correct? That's correct. Where was it? The home was right on Counter Road 34, which is the same proximity that she was actually located at. So it's in the rural areas we spoke, and it was the same day instance, not the next day, that we actually went into the residence. Sheriff, what was found when you and your people went into the residence? Actually, we procured a search warrant for the residence based on the information and entered into the residence.

And at that point in time, two decomposed bodies were actually found in the residence and at that point in time two decomposed bodies were actually found in the residence. They were removed and went to the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences for their examination. Take a listen to this. Yesterday about 8 26 our office received a call of a young juvenile female walking in the roadway in the area of 3547 County Road 34. During the initial investigation from the information that we received and collected, we were able to arrest Jose Pauline Pascal Reyes of this same address for kidnapping in the first degree. And he was arrested in Auburn on Somerville Circle by the Marshal Service and the Auburn Police Department.

And more, listen. First of all, what stands in the affidavit, we stand by that affidavit to be able to procure the kidnapping points. And I would say she's a hero, and it's one of those things that we want to get into later. We gave her medical attention and she's safe now. And so we want to keep her that way. And that's basically all I can actually say. The first contact we had with her was yesterday morning

when a passenger was able to stop with her and they reported to us so she was not considered a missing person. And also we learn more from Elizabeth White at WRBL. The child had restraint marks on her wrist, braces on her teeth broken from her escape, according to investigators. As the child was being treated for injuries. Investigators entered the home, locating two decomposing bodies, their identities and cause of death not yet released. Reyes was located Monday by U.S. Marshals at a construction site where he was working in Auburn. He's charged with first degree kidnapping. Investigators say other charges, including capital murder, are pending.

Nicole DeBoer, Hotchklob, joining me, a veteran criminal defense attorney out of Houston, a former prosecutor. And you can find her at HoustonCriminalDefense.com. Nicole, did you hear Sheriff Jimmy Abbott say very carefully, we had an affidavit to support a search warrant before we went into that home? That's the way you do it. Yeah, that's crossing your T's and dotting your I's because in my mind if a little girl with her braces all mangled up from chewing through restraints to escape a sex predator

been tied up to a bed post for a week hit in the head and fed alcohol to keep her sedated I would call that an exigent circumstance. But not only that, which usually would apply to a car, I would be worried another crime could be going down in that home and just break the door down. Now see, that's why we have Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, because he did the right thing. Because you don't want at trial the defense jumping up and saying he had time to get a warrant. You can't just break down the door. You're so right.

And some judge might agree and throw out all the evidence that you find inside. Of course, also, there's ultimate discovery. Because ultimately, two dead bodies are going to be found because someone is going to miss those people. But did you hear that this girl had not been reported as missing even though she had been tied to a bedpost for a week? And now we know why. But first explain why the sheriff did the right thing in getting the warrants. Absolutely the right thing. And as you've already pointed out, it really is kind of a belt and suspender situation. It could be what we call exigent or emergency circumstances, which would have allowed law enforcement to go in without a warrant.

But this is exactly the right way to do it for law enforcement. You get that warrant to be sure. That way there are no arguments later on when you discover evidence that you need for trial and i'll tell you that's a hard thing to do when you have a case uh involving a child there are very few circumstances more emotional than finding a child who is injured who has been attacked and who has reported that this is the location of the crime and that there may be something still ongoing. And it is so smart to press pause, as was done in this case, do what is correct under the law and get that warrant,

even though it is really not the emotionally natural thing to do. Not at all. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, in your jurisdiction, can you get a warrant over the phone? Or did you have to go through sending an investigator to the sheriff? I mean, to the judge, have the investigator swear in and give information? Or could you do it by phone? Yes, we can do telephonic search warrants by phone. And then we have to then, you know, prepare the affidavit for the judge later to sign and then the returns.

So everybody, a return that Sheriff Abbott's talking about is when you go in on a search warrant and you find things that you're going to seize, like drugs. Let's just go with drugs. You write a return, which means you list everything that you're seizing from the home. Sheriff, I'm so glad you could do, you said telephonic, a phone affidavit. You know, you explain it, Nicole Hodge Globe, what we mean by Abbott, Sheriff Abbott getting the affidavit to support the warrant to make that search legal. So the law enforcement official who is providing the affidavit has to swear to it

and go in front of a judge or in front of somebody who can really notarize it or accept that swearing and then give them a document that is a warrant. So in the old days most places required that you be present, you go do that in person.

There have been changes to the law over time and these changes allow for these types of swearing to happen over the telephone. They have people in place who can accept the swearing and provide the affidavit, oftentimes over the computer. It would have been, again, in the old days, provided by fax or just handed to the law enforcement official but now because we know and understand that time is of the essence you can actually take care of these things remotely which really makes sense so sheriff what do you do using magistrate uh who are really there for off hours because court very often doesn't start till nine or ten o'clock in the morning who do you go in front of a magistrate

we actually use our district judge we have district judges and circuit judges in our county. So we actually do it in person by phone to the district judge. Sheriff Abbott, what was discovered when your people went in the home pursuant to warrant? Well, as you know, the two decomposed bodies were actually found. We processed the scene for almost three days, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, gathering other valuable information that we can use against the individual. Can't get into that right now. But basically, the two decomposed bodies were actually our focus to begin with. And once we found those, then they went immediately to transport immediately to the forensic sciences, which is located in Montgomery.

And they started their examination. And Friday, if I may add, is that we finally got a positive ID on the Sandra Sayhawk, and then the other individual, juvenile, under the age of 14, is reasonably sure that this is the identity of this individual. So I've got that a woman and a little boy were the two murdered people, and I'm understanding, I'm reading between the lines, that at first you couldn't even identify the victims. Sandra Ceja is the little 12-year-old girl's mother, and the little boy seems to be her brother. I'm hearing you say it was a three-day process, an odyssey of processing that home

where the little girl had been tied to a bedpost for a week, sedated with alcohol and beaten to the head. I just wonder, Sheriff, where she was tied to the bed, would she have been able to see her mother or brother's body? We're not getting into that right now. I hope you understand it's still part of the investigation. I do. We're trying to, like I said, to gather everything from A to Z and then then actually make our returns and then get with our prosecutors and move forward with the case.

To Dr. Charles Heller joining me, clinical forensic psychologist, chief forensic consultant in Rockland County, New York. The Forensic Mental Health Unit works there at also Rutgers Biomedical and Health Services. Dr. Heller, I can't even imagine what this child will live through the rest of her life. Yeah, this is a terrible, complex trauma, and she's going to need a lot of emotional support and understanding. And there are various treatments that can be used over time, but really, we don't really know

what her condition is emotionally or mentally. Obviously, we can surmise that she's been through one of the worst traumas any human being could ever go through. It's a horrible story. I'm just wondering what she knew, if she knew what was happening to her mother and brother. During this investigation overnight investigation processing the residents we have found located two decomposed bodies that were found and currently at the Department forensic sciences pending the identification one of the victims has been identified as the suspects girlfriend Sandra Vasquez Ceja court documents allege Pascal Reyes smothered her to death with a pillow. The other victim was her child, identified only by his initials. Pascal Reyes

is charged with capital murder of a child under 14 years old. The criminal complaint goes on to accuse Pascal Reyes of abusing a corpse in an attempt to hide the evidence. Abusing a corpse? Well, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig. You are hearing, in addition to the Tallapoosa County Sheriff, Sheriff Abbott, our friends at NBC, but now take a listen to our friend Sarah Killian at WVTM. Court records are identifying the victims found in the Dateville home. As a woman and child. The adult victim, Sandra CJ, was smothered to death. The other victim, a young boy,

beaten to death. The two were dismembered to hide evidence. Jose Pascal Reyes, that man you see right there, charged with capital murder, abuse of a corpse, and kidnapping. Police say that he kidnapped a 12-year-old who he drugged, tied to a bedpost before she escaped by chewing her way out of the restraints. To Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, have you ever had a dismemberment case before this one? No. I'm sorry this was your first and I pray it's going to be your last. Because that, and I know you got to be careful because you're going to be your last. Because that, and I know you've got to be careful because you're going to be a witness. So whatever you don't want to answer, I know you'll tell me.

You're very forthright. Sheriff, when your people first went into the home, was it apparent that a dismemberment had occurred? I can't get into that. I understand. No, no, no, no. You're absolutely right. You're right, and that's why I've got Joe Scott Morgan.

Not that he went into the home, but he's seen probably more dismemberments between you and I together. Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor of forensics. Joe Scott, you and I just, okay, just gave me chills just remembering this. You and I have just finished, and I'm sure it's ongoing,

we're not through yet, Joe Scott, investigating the case of cult mom Lori Vallow, where two of her children were murdered by her new husband, and the little girl was dismembered. Tylee was dismembered. You and I have investigated a lot was dismembered. Tylee was dismembered. There have been, you and I have investigated a lot of dismemberment cases. Yes, you're right.

Three days, three days to process the scene. And now I know why. Yeah. And if there's an upside, the idea that it did take three days gives you an idea as to the care that has been taken in processing the scene. You know, we back up and we think about this warrant that was issued prior to making entry into the scene. You've got to contain scene because it's within, you know, this dwelling, which is helpful in this sense. You don't have people, you can control who's coming in and out of it. And because there is a lot of fragile, delicate evidence in a scene like this that investigators would have to take their time with.

You know, if we just look at, you know, the word decomposing has been used several times. And when you're dealing with a decomposing case and you don't have an immediate witness that can give you information, time is of essence there. And so you begin to think about how long the bodies had been down. And, you know, we can talk about things like entomology and study of insects and the rate of decomposition and heat. I don't know they're going to get the same kind of insects inside a home that you would get if the bodies had been left out. Hey, hold on, Joe Scott, just a second. Hold your thought, because I want to hear every single thing you're saying.

I just got to ask Sheriff Jimmy Abbott. Sheriff, I'm looking at the little girl. Her face is blurred. And she's got on a little shirt with the little, it looks like a little blue horse with wings and it's rainbow colored and she's all dressed up to match her outfit with her skirt. I'm looking at a picture of her brother and her mother is just beautiful. Sheriff, how do you do it? How do you get up in the morning and put one foot in front of the other?

I'm looking at these three. Oh, my. She's got on a little headband with little ears and a unicorn, a gold unicorn horn coming at the top of her little headband. Like something I would dress my sister. I'm excuseband like something I would dress my sister, excuse me, like I would dress my little girl in when she was younger. And to think the brother and the mother dead and dismembered, and the little girl has been through hell, the bottom of hell, and then out, tied to that bedpost while her mother and brother are murdered and dismembered. How do you keep going, Sheriff? I'm curious.

Well, this is my second profession. First, I've worked with the state and I worked in the Alabama Bureau of Investigation for approximately 20 years. And then I ran and got elected. And I feel like it's a duty once you take this job it's a duty to do the best that you can in investigating cases to end results is prosecuting the person so it's a passion that i've had for years and you know our team of investigators not just me we had people from local agencies from the state and also from the federal uh levels that was assisting us on this and are still assisting on us as we wade through the uh

evidence that we've collected and so it's just one of those things that uh you have to do it it's a role in law enforcement you know once sign up, it's one of those things that I've got a great passion for. It is working in criminal investigation as long as I've worked to make sure that we do the right thing and train our people to do the right thing when they're there. You know, there was many a time, Sheriff, I would leave the courthouse or crime scene and I'd have to just pull off the side of the road and just sit there to get my mind straight to keep going. But as a crime victim myself, I feel like it's a duty to keep going forward. And I was just curious about how you do that.

Now I'm looking at a picture I found on Facebook. And it said the mom in a beautiful purple evening dress and the son has on a little blue suit and a white collar shirt and the daughter is all dressed up in like a little red party dress and little heels. They're obviously going to some event, some function. And to think that all that is over, the whole family, what's left of them, will never be the same again, Sheriff. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Tell me how the little girl is doing. She's doing well as expected. Physically, you know, injuries and all her minor injuries. We placed her in custody of the state of Alabama. She has an attorney in Alabama. That's the procedures that we go through. And the Alabama Department of Human Resources is taking care of her. We've had tremendous support from the community people reaching out to assist the DHR as well as her. You know what is another amazing thing about this is the fact that the little girl lived, Sheriff. Take a listen to Hour Cut 17.

This is our longtime friend Gail King at 48 Hours. Jamie Claus went missing in the early hours of October 15, 2018, when a man the family did not know pulled into their driveway. Jamie's father, Jim, was murdered, shot at point-blank range at the front door. Her mother, Denise, barricaded herself with Jamie in the bathroom and called 911. The 911 call is very inaudible. You can't hear words. You hear yelling or maybe a scream, and it ends by getting hung up. The killer drove away with 13-year-old Jamie in the trunk of his car.

Jamie Closs endured hell and had her family murdered as well by a predator. Sheriff Abbott, I don't understand the thinking of these perps willing to wipe out a whole family to get to the girl. I mean, I don't know if that was the motivation in this case, but do you believe you have a motivation regarding the 12-year-old girl that you guys saved? We're not commenting on any MO at this time. We're still letting the investigation continue with hopefully the results of what you're asking me as far as MO will come out at a later date. To Gina Tron joining me from Oxygen.com. Gina, what more can you tell us?

Well, the family was living with the suspect for months before this happened. So it makes one wonder if he had been planning this for a while. They moved in with him in February. And the attack actually happened on July 24th, or allegedly that's when the mother and son were killed and when the girl's captivity began. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics. Will we be able to date the murders and then backtrack and compare it to when the girl was first taken hostage? I think that depending upon the physical evidence that has been gathered in a case like this,

you know, one of the things that you're going to look for is how long the remains have been down. And, you know, depending upon the information that may be developed by the investigators, is that going to marry up with this timeline? And keep in mind, you've got this poor little girl that's in and out of, you know, what her current reality was. She's not going to be necessarily oriented to time and space.

So she's going to be hard, I think, to get information from about specific times. You know, one of the troubling things for me is, you know, perhaps the head trauma that she may have sustained, coupling that with this ongoing, you know, dosing of alcohol and anything else that she may have had in her system. And I'm sure that they probably did talks on her more than likely when they did the initial assessment. Yes, ma'am.

Joe Scott Morgan joining me. Joe Scott, I just don't think there's any way this little girl did not know her mother and brother had been killed and dismembered. It's a very small home. Yeah, it is. Very contained. And this is the thing about it. As this process of decomposition is going on and she is in this environment, you're going to have all kinds of horrors that are going to be falling her just from a sensory standpoint.

The things that she smells, maybe things that she hears in that environment, and she would know, what kind of detail she could come up with. But just, you know, when you begin to think about the fact that what has been alleged is that she had chewed through her restraints in this environment to get free. That means that shows a will on her part. And then she's got to extricate herself. This is not like the police actually came in and removed her in some Hollywood movie. She did this all on her own. And so she would have had to have made her way through that environment. And I can't even begin to plumb the depths of how horrible that would have been. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, how do we even know the mom was suffocated if the bodies have been dismembered? Possibly the head was still intact. In other words, they found the head

so they can make out the petechiae being burst. I'm not sure. How would they do that with a dismembered body? That's the only thing I can think of is that they would have had some kind of evidence, perhaps in the form of petechial hemorrhages because they keep using this term, decomposing bodies. And so how are you going to assess that?

And I think that that's what the forensic sciences are faced with in this particular case. Or to Dr. Charles Heller joining us, forensic psychologist. Maybe the little girl told them mommy was asphyxiated, smothered strangled sometimes nancy in cases like this when it's such a horrible horrific event a trauma beyond words a person goes into a dissociative state it's almost like they numb out so they don't feel the pain and it's like a blackout so there could be times when this little girl did that. Also, in terms of remembering it, she can have dissociative moments where she doesn't remember. So it's a complex trauma and she's going to be, she's injured. She's emotionally injured and she's going to need great therapy and treatment.

Nicole DeBoer to Hotch Globe joining us out of Texas, high-profile defense attorney. Weigh in, Nicole. We were very, very fortunate that this heroic child was able to get out of that home and get help. And one of the next miracles that happened is that the person who discovered her did not take her somewhere,

did not remove her further from the scene and did not question her. These things are so important because they will make her testimony and what she has to say ultimately to the police that much cleaner. So I'm just very glad for her. I mean, can we all get real just for one moment? He murdered the mother, according to the little girl, and the brother kept her alive, tied to a bed for a week, hitting her in the head and feeding her alcohol to keep her sedated. What other motive is there other than a sex motive?

I mean, am I missing something? Joe Scott, help me out yeah i mean the fact that that she is restrained uh it is a huge tell in this you know why what would be your purpose i'm using your in a universal sense but specifically to the perpetrator why why would you need to keep a 12 year old restrained and you know that that's the biggest thing here for me and then you're gonna leave her in this environment and go to work go to work just think about the audacity of that you're gonna go to work working on a construction site remember that's where they caught this guy after he had left this poor child tied up to this bed and her family there dismembered and decomposing, it just beats all. The metal underpinning of the mobile home was damaged and investigators believe that that may have been part of the effort to hide the body.

So if you look at footage from the scene, it looks as though the bodies may have been found underneath the trailer. Which will be brought out at trial because actions before, during, and following a crime are admissible to show course of conduct, frame of mind, scheme, motive. For right now, this little girl is alive. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumstoy signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.