Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - GLAM YOGA TEACHER ON TRIAL NOW, Shocking 911 Call Just Played

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

After opening statements, witness testimony began in Kaitlyn Armstrong's murder trial. Mo Wilson's brother, Matt Wilson, answered questions about Wilson's professional cycling and what type of person she was. Wilson testified that Mo Wilson and Colin Strickland were not having a romantic relationship when she was killed. The woman that Mo Wilson stayed with in Austin and whose apartment in which she was killed, Caitlin Cash, said the same thing when asked about the Wilson / Strickland relationship. Caitlin Cash also testified on how she found Mo Wilson on the floor of her apartment bathroom covered in blood. The state also played the call Cash made to 911. Cash cried while the recording of her call was played in court.  During ADA Ricky Jones' opening statement, he said Armstrong knew that Wilson was in town because the day before the shooting she looked Wilson up four times on a phone app called Strava that showed where Wilson planned to race and gave the address of the house where Wilson was staying. Jones also pointed out that Armstrong had used Colin Strickland's login information on her cell phone and looked up pictures of Mo Wilson. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Alan Bennett – Former Assistant District Attorney, Partner at Gunter, Bennett, and Anthes Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall   Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Tony Plohetski -  Investigative Reporter, Austin American-Statesman and KVUE; Twitter: @tplohetski   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It's on. The trial of the so-called glam yoga instructor is underway. Now, this is after she flees the jurisdiction of Texas, uses a fake passport, her sister's passport, to hide out in Costa Rica at a hostel where she wants to teach surf yoga, I believe, gets a nose job, and then finally is brought home, extradited back to the U.S., where she then escapes from the jail again.

Hey, guys, you better make sure she doesn't pull a Bundy and jump out a window at the courthouse and run for it again. This woman will go on the run. This will be her, what, third or fourth time escaping authorities? Well, yesterday in the courtroom and as we speak now, the case commencing. We heard opening statements and man, they were something. Wait till you hear what the defense had to say following the state's opening statement. I'm going to play that for you. But we heard about the horrific discovery of Moe's body, 25-year-old young woman, crushed, crumpled between a commode and the wall, and the allegation by the state that they intend to prove that an angry lover,

Caitlin Armstrong, stood over her and shot her in the heart. Why? Because the yoga instructor's boyfriend shared a hamburger with 25-year-old Mo. You know what? I want you to hear it from the horse's mouth. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. With no further ado, let's go in the courtroom. Listen. You're here from Cate and Cash. She had gone to dinner. Good friend of Moe. Moe was hanging.

She arrives home and sees Moe on the floor. She sees her legs. She'll testify. She thought Moe had been on a strenuous ride and was laying on the floor stretching and relaxing. And she'll testify as she gets closer and sees blood and freaks out.

And at 9.54 p.m., in seconds, being in the apartment, she calls 911. And in that 911 call, the friend says, her brain is leaking. Her brain is leaking. Her brain is leaking. I'm surprised this young girl even had the wherewithal to speak after finding what she found. With me, an all-star panel. Joining me outside the courthouse, Tony Plohetsky, investigative reporter with the Austin American Statesman, as well as KVUE. Those opening statements were bombshells, Tony Plahetsky. How was the jury responding? Nancy, you could see they were visibly struck by the opening statement. And as you mentioned, testimony from a young woman named

Caitlin Cash. She is the one who discovered her friend's body in her own home. But during opening statements, you could absolutely see that the jurors were sitting on the edge of their seat as prosecutors unfurled what they described themselves as a mountain of evidence, some of which has been in the public space, Nancy, but some of which we were all hearing for the first time. People were sitting on the edge. Oh, tell me, tell me. What did you hear for the first time, Tony?

So, Nancy, for the first time, investigators described in court and prosecutors described in court how Caitlin Armstrong, they say, knew exactly where Mariah Wilson was, that she had access to messages that were being transmitted between Colin Strickland and Mariah Wilson. And in those messages, Mariah Wilson, Moe, said, I am staying at this exact address. Aha. We've been wondering how she knew exactly where Mariah was. Mariah Moe. Take a listen to our cut 175. This is the turn of the magic.

You heard from Collin that at some point in 2021, about to freeze, she moved in with Collin. The period that wasn't the result of that business, they shared an iPad and a ipad is connected to my iPhone, is connected to my laptop, is connected to the minivan. If I order from Instacart on my iPad, it pops up on my iPhone. Got to be careful at Christmas time because when I charge something on Amazon, it pops up for some reason on my son's iPhone. So he can see what I'm buying leading up to Christmas. Is that he didn't realize the devices were interconnected, Tony Plohetsky?

Well, there was no statement about what he did or did not know. But I think it's suffice to say that he did not recognize or realize that that Caitlin Armstrong was surveilling his communication. And what we do know, and this was stated by prosecutors yesterday, is that earlier in the year, in 2022, he was so concerned about Kaitlyn Armstrong knowing that he was having ongoing conversations with Mo Wilson that he actually changed Wilson's name in his phone so that if they were texting back and forth and Armstrong saw Mo Wilson's name pop up,

she would not realize that that's who he was talking to. So he changed Mo Wilson's name in his devices and all of his devices to Christine Walls to secret his communications with Mo Wilson. He says after he and Moe dated they remained friends okay to Dr. Bethany Marshall high-profile psychoanalyst joining us out of LA Dr. Bethany if you have to surveil the one you love you need a new relationship it's not not necessarily you maybe it's them maybe they're cheating and you feel it but you don't know it so you have to check up on them all the time. You know what? It's just, that's too much trouble.

If I had to figure out where David Lynch is every time, every hour of the day and night, I'd go crazy. In terms of Armstrong, it could fall into two categories in terms of motivation. One could be situational. Situational would be that she knows he's a cheater. He's a philanderer. There's evidence. He flirts with other girls in front of her.

Or it could be characterological, meaning she's very disturbed and she has pathological envy and jealousy. And even if he was pure as the driven snow, she would check up and check up. And these are the kind of people, Nancy, who are stalkers. This sounds like stalking to me. She was stalking him, just call it what it is, stalking him. And she was stalking Mo. And she put enormous energy into this. To Tony Plohetsky joining us outside the courthouse, tell me about the room, the friend where Mo was staying, her coming home, and finding Mariah dead. It was this really wrenching testimony, and there was complete silence in the courtroom

as she described coming home, initially seeing, well, first of all, she had leftovers and her cell phone, as she describes, kind of dropping them as she entered her home. And, Nancy, just to describe it a little further, we're talking about a back house, like a garage apartment behind another home. Okay, slow down, slow down. A garage apartment behind another house. Is that what you just said? That is correct. Okay, and before that, you were saying she swapped something out.

What did she swap out? This is the friend coming home, Caitlin Cash. Yes. So she has leftovers in her cell phone that she actually dropped on the counter as she's walking into her home. Then she sees her friend lying on the bathroom floor, and she has a couple of thoughts. She can see that from the entryway? Exactly. We're talking about a very, very small dwelling.

And she has a couple of thoughts. Number one, maybe she's just had a hard workout, and she's doing some stretching. Another thought is that it was so hot, she wondered if her friend Mo was hot and was lying on the bathroom tile to try to cool off. But she's saying, hello, I'm home, how's it going? And was getting no response. So she goes over urgently to the bathroom and realizes that Mo is very much not okay. She doesn't describe in that moment that she sees that she's been shot, but upon closer inspection of her friend, she then sees that there is blood everywhere, and that is when she called 911. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Tony, perhaps can you say she sees that there is blood anywhere? Those were your words. Where? Where did the roommate, the friend? She's also named Caitlin, Caitlin Cash. So I'm just going to call her the friend. Where did the friend see blood? She just described this pool of blood, but she can't apparently ascertain in that moment that her friend, Mo, has been shot. She just knows that there's blood everywhere. She actually, at that point, picks up her phone, gets her phone and calls 911. And she's saying to the 911 operator, I don't know what's wrong with her, but there's blood everywhere. There's blood everywhere. How can that be, too? Justice Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit new series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how can Mariah be lying there? And we know she was lying flat, not crunched up in

a triangle, because when the friend comes home, she sees her legs splayed out on the ground. So we know she's lying flat-ish, curved from behind that, between the commode and the wall. How could she not see that she was shot? She very well may have seen it, but her brain is not registering, you know, what she's taking in at this moment in time, Nancy. You know, over the course of my career interviewing people that actually discover bodies like this, they only see things in flashes many times. And it takes a little bit of time for them to kind of let this data kind of seep down through their brain. So when they're giving that initial statement to the police, it may not be exact.

It doesn't necessarily marry up every single time with what CSI sees when they go out to the crime scene and they have their time to take this. Keep in mind, this this young woman, this murder victim is friend. And all she wants to do is render aid. She's not thinking as far as, you know, trying to understand what the dynamics are here. All she knows is that she sees blood and she sees injuries. And I think that you'll probably get into that. But the reality is this. She just wants to render aid to this young woman. She can't really give an assessment at that moment, Tom. Did she actually say, Tony Plohetsky, her brain is leaking? In her call to 911, she did make that statement. She did. And this is at a moment when she's also being instructed, excuse me, to do chest compressions by the 911 operator.

And you can hear over and over and over, the friend is counting as she is doing these chest compressions. I think she gets up to 80 before EMS arrives. And she's becoming more and more distraught as this is all sinking into her. And she's, she is realizing and recognizing the, the, the absolute terror that, that has transpired. And Nancy, if I could just, if I could just add real quickly, as she's doing these chest compressions, this is the first time she will have actually been able to kind of eyeball Mo at this point in time. I mean, like up close and personal, think about chest compressions. You might be about 18 inches away from their face and you're looking down at them.

You know, one of the rules with doing CPR is you get them flat on their back. You're doing chest compressions. And a lot of things happen when this occurs. When you're pressing down on the chest, you're going to see blood that begins to emanate from the body if you have a defect or hole, a bullet hole. And also, she would notice at this moment in time, this is what we call extrusion. You see this extruding brain matter that's coming out of these defects or bullet holes in her head, and it would have been quite ghastly. I don't know how she made sense of it. I'm curious why there was brain fluid and or blood coming from her head if she was only shot in the heart.

Hold on. I'm going to come back to you on that. Tony Blahetsky joining me outside the courthouse right now with KVUE and the Austin American Statesman. Alan Bennett joining me, renowned lawyer, former prosecutor, partner at Gunter, Bennett and Anthus. Alan, thank you for being with us and all your time prosecuting. Very often witnesses don't know what they're seeing or hearing. They hear gunshots and say, oh, that was a car backfiring because it's not within their realm of understanding. They're not used to hearing

gunshots. They're not used to seeing Mariah on the floor, dead, dying with her brain, quote, leaking. So your mind leaps to what you know what you're used to that's not unusual absolutely Nancy and once again thank you very much for having me on your program I appreciate your opportunity to be here and having been a former prosecutor yourself and your illustrious career you are well aware more than I that eyewitness testimony in cases is the least reliable evidence that a jury often has. We tend to put so much weight on it.

We tend to think of it as the gold standard of evidence in a criminal case. But studies have shown time and time again eyewitness testimony is actually the least reliable evidence that a jury often has. Before people see a traffic accident, you'll have four different versions of how that accident occurred. And as you well know, that's just something prosecutors and defense attorneys always have to deal with. And absolutely, I agree with you that when someone is in that unfamiliar territory, in that situation that is completely outside of their realm of experiences, I agree with the doctor. Your brain will try to fill in the gaps. Your brain will try to fill in the missing pieces of what the eyes are processing. But you know, Nancy, one of the missing pieces would be who entered the house, who shot her friend, and is she safe? Is the roommate safe? Apparently, she was not concerned at all about her own safety at that time. As you can hear on the 911 call, all she's doing is trying to save Mariah.

Take a listen to Hour Cut 188. This is the prosecutor. She put the phone on the speaker, and the 911 operator had her doing chest compressions to her friend. She can tell you she had no idea she was dead, whether she was dead or not. You're going to tell us more this morning. Friends, the closest plan is chest. About 80 times for 8 to 10 minutes until the first responder shows up and took over.

Joining me right now, Irv Brandt, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshal Service International. Also, Chief Inspector, Department of Justice, Office of International Affairs, author of Solo Shot, Curse of the Blue Stone, and flying solo, Top of the World. Irv Brandt, I'm just trying to reconcile all the photos that we have seen of Caitlin Armstrong, the so-called glam yoga teacher, so consumed by jealousy and bitterness over the fact that her boyfriend is still in communications with an ex. Not that they're necessarily cheating right now. I don't know that. But that they're talking, that they text back and forth, that they're meeting for a hamburger, that they're going to go swimming together. So consumed. Instead of just going, you know what? I've had it. I don't want to live this way. I'm breaking up. She continues to stalk, as Dr. Bethany Marshall told us, continues to spy, follows him, catches every communication, even though he now has Mariah Wilson listed under a completely different

name. When you see her in court or when you see her all glammed up, it's hard to imagine. This is the woman they had to track down in Costa Rica that then escaped from sheriffs and who was accused of standing over Mariah and shooting her in the heart. Sometimes your eyes can't believe what you see, Nancy. And I would defer to Dr. Bethany. I'm sure she has clinical terms for it. We would just call it crazy. But I'm saying you have found people all over the world as U.S. Marshal, and they come off as so friendly, affable, intelligent, in this case, glamorous. But that's not, it's like a lizard is under their skin. That's not who they are. No, I agree 100%.

When she went down to Costa Rica, she assumed a whole new persona. The people that were interviewed that, you know, talked to police thought she was very normal. Yeah, really normal. She was like, that's not my birthday. Yeah, I didn't have that Botox and ran out on was like, that's not my birthday. Yeah, I didn't have that Botox and ran out on the bill. That's not my warrant. When she slipped through their fingers to Tony Plohetsky. Tell me what happened in court when the 911 call was played, where the friend, Caitlin Cash, was trying to revive Mariah on the floor. First of all, you could hear a pin drop in the courtroom. I mean,

even among journalists who were typing frantically on their keyboard, much of that ceased as this was happening. You could look at the jurors and you. And the friend on the stand was crying, obviously, as this tape was this audio was going to be played in court. Mo Wilson's family, most of them exited the courtroom prior to that. But you could see other friends of hers who similarly remained in court. And they, much like some of the jurors, were wiping away tears. And you could hear audible crying in the courtroom. Man, that's a bad sign. If the other side has the jury crying. Uh-oh. What was, question, what was the defendant, Caitlin Armstrong, doing during this? A little difficult to see from my vantage point.

But, you know, she had her back to the crowd. And unfortunately, cameras were not trained on her face in that moment. Can you tell me what the defense was doing while the 9-1-1 was playing? Were they just sitting there taking notes? Remember how O.J. Simpson would just sit there and take notes during the most gruesome testimony? It's like, I don't know what they're talking about. That's not me. Just take notes, doodles. What? What was he doing? They were sitting solemnly at the defense table, but not showing any sort of real visible emotion. Guys, we are trying to determine how the whole evening went down, but I want you to hear what the defense has to say in their opening statement. Take a listen to our 208. You will also hear from experts, and I want you to listen when those experts tell you DNA reporting can mean very little.

And ballistic science isn't a science at all. And it's not highly regarded by members of the general scientific community. I'm going to object to that. There's no evidence that it's not highly regarded by the general science community just because you can find one or two people to say that. Judge, these are opening remarks. This is what we expect the evidence to show. This is a proper argument. Thank you. Okay, that cut out on me at the end, but I did hear the defense. The defense is, you know,

DNA can mean very little. And ballistic science? Well, that's not science at all. What? What is he talking about? There have been decades gone into ballistic matches. They're like a fingerprint. If they weren't, I would not bother bringing them into court. You don't want to bring something into court and have it attacked on cross-exam and lose all the credibility.

And then you lose credibility. Nobody believes a thing you're saying anymore because you've tried to pull something over on the jury. Just don't do it. Ballistics is like a fingerprint. Once a bullet goes down the barrel, it is forever indelibly marked with the interior of that barrel. It's a fingerprint, a ballistic fingerprint. There's no other like it. And DNA, who is this guy?

But I guess, practically speaking, Tony Blachetsky, what else can he say? Well, as I said, Nancy, yesterday, going into opening statements yesterday, a big question is what is going to be the defense? We were all on the edge of our seats. Are they going to try to blame someone else? How are they going to cast this? And essentially, the defense attorney, Joffrey Puriers, former judge here in Austin, former prosecutor here in the Austin area, stood up and said that this is all just a pile of circumstantial evidence. He went as far as to say that his client, Caitlin Armstrong, has been trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence for a year and a half.

Boo hoo. She's trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence. Okay, let me ask you this about the vehicle that was circling what turned out to be the murder scene. Tell me about the evidence that they discussed in opening statements about that being Caitlin Armstrong's car that was circling the murder scene number one that that is how they got on to caitlyn armstrong uh that they were able to identify the vehicle particular characteristics on the vehicle including a bike rack that's number one then they traced that car to to her house number two uh was the the search warrant that they served on the house where they recovered that 9-millimeter pistol, that matched shell casings found at the scene. Number three, and this is new, Nancy. Nobody knew this until yesterday. They recovered, according to prosecutors, DNA from a bicycle, Mo Wilson's bicycle that was found in some bushes.

Guess whose DNA, according to prosecutors, was on the handlebars and on the seat. Caitlin Armstrong. Caitlin Armstrong. That's why it's her DNA on the murder victim's bike. Take a listen to our cut 189. The prosecutor. DNA on the handlebars. Five categories. I think it was the lowest, strongly, strong and very strong.

Like that's how they do it. You'll find she'll testify that the DNA on the handlebars. And the DNA will testify that with regards to the DNA on the seat of the bike, that there's a very strong likelihood that the DNA on the seat of the bike included DNA from Kate Armstrong. Very strong, highest category. Tony Blahetsky, what is the state's theory as to how the defendant, the yoga teacher's DNA, got on the murder victim's bike?

Why did that happen? There's no explanation that the defense offered as to why Caitlin Armstrong's DNA would be on that bicycle. And then, Nancy, in addition to that newly released, at least publicly, DNA evidence, there is also this trove, according to prosecutors, of digital evidence that places Caitlin Armstrong at the crime scene, that places her, you know, in Costa Rica doing Google searches on herself after she fled to Costa Rica, according to police. Just prosecutors went through this mountain of digital evidence that they have gained over the past year and a half. I love digital evidence. Can we get back to the state's theory as to why the yoga teacher, Caitlin Armstrong's DNA is on the murder victim, Mariah Wilson's bike on the handlebars

and on the seat of the murder victim's bike. Why is it there according to the state? The state contends that Caitlin Armstrong moved this bike after shooting and killing Mo Wilson. They did not describe why she may have done that, whether or not it was just a pure act of vengeance to throw her bike in some bushes, or whether or not she could have possibly tried to make this look like some sort of burglary gone wrong. Ah, okay. Yes, I see what you're saying now. Setting it up to be a burglary gone gone wrong ah okay yes i see what you're saying now um setting it up to be a burglary gone wrong okay joining me joseph scott morgan professor forensics jacksville state university and author jump in joe scott how did her dna get on that bike seat and the handlebars obviously the handlebars she must have gripped them and picked it up by the seat.

Yeah, she did. And guess what, Nancy? I don't believe that this is what we traditionally refer to as touch DNA, you know, where we're sloughing dead skin cells. This is what I believe. I believe that this is probably a deposition of DNA. That means a deposit of DNA on the seat and the handlebars that came off of the alleged perpetrator's hands as a result of sweat. You know, you are incredible because guess what I just wrote down? What's that? Avery.

Avery. Stephen Avery. The star of Making a Murderer Who Killed. Yes, he did. He murdered a photographer, a young girl in her 20s, Teresa Hallback, and his for instance, you know, what we would want would be blood, obviously. Right. But you're going to get you're going to get cellular DNA out of sweat that is going to be much more rich. OK, so that means that you're not going to have to go back. And so we don't get off in the weeds technically. You're not going to have to do as many replications. Say, for instance, if you're just talking about touch DNA that's from, you only have a partial strand with dead skin cells.

That's not what you're looking at. That's why this is such a momentous discovery by the police. I find it curious that they were able to, because my understanding is when they, and, you know, maybe you guys can correct me on this, this bike was actually found over in the bushes. It's not like it was just kind of standing alone. The fact that they were able to process this, this bicycle so, so well under harsh conditions, and we're talking about Austin in the summertime, Nancy, and you know what it's like down there. They were able to recover that DNA off of these surfaces.

That gives you an indication as how rich this deposition is. And they were able to tie it back to her. I would imagine at some point in time when they were able to hook her up on charges and when they finally had her, you know, corralled somewhere, they did a buccal mucosal swab on her. They took a, you know, they took a scraping of her inner cheek cells and they were able to compare it because, look, they're looking for any kind of DNA that is not commonly associated with that crime scene. So that gives me an indication that they've done a very thorough job. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about the stalking aspect of this. And I think that's best done, not by me, but by the prosecutor in our 186.

You are hearing the opening statement. Listen. You will learn that at 8.37 p.m., one minute after you open that door, Kate Armstrong jeeps and goes to that app. One minute. You'll see that on video. 36, 37, 838, a few blocks away. You hear all that from witnesses. 1-836-837-838. I live a few blocks away. Hey, you can all have a witness.

Now, Mona sends her last message out at 9.13 p.m. She sent a text message to a podcast. I guess that's part of that mountain of circumstantial evidence that has had Caitlin Armstrong trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence for a year and a half. Because Alan Bennett, this place is her in her vehicle. Caitlin Armstrong's Jeep, the victim, Mariah, comes in. She goes in and we know the timing because the house where she's staying at her friend's house doesn't have a traditional key. It has, I guess, a code. It has a different way to get in that's electronically chronicled. So we know what time she goes in. One minute after Caitlin goes in, after Mariah goes in, Caitlin Armstrong pulls up and idles outside. She, Caitlin Armstrong, was following Moe.

And I believe Moe came home and the boyfriend dropped her off of his motorcycle right there. And in one minute, Caitlin Armstrong creeps up. Wow, what a coinkydink. She happens to be right there within two minutes of Mariah being gunned down dead. Absolutely, Nancy. And there's been a lot of talk of, oh, circumstantial evidence. She's buried under a mountain of circumstantial evidence. It's just circumstantial evidence. She's buried under a mountain of circumstantial evidence. It's just circumstantial evidence. Everything is circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence just means there's no direct evidence and direct evidence would be an eyewitness seeing her pull the trigger. So yeah, it's all circumstantial evidence. But kind of getting back to an observation you made just a moment ago, Professor, talking about old ballistic evidence, it's not really a science.

And DNA, you'll hear from experts that DNA really means very, very little. Well, technically, you know, technically, the prosecutor is correct. He's just playing a very, very bad hand as well as he is able. He could find some people that says, oh, ballistic technology, ballistic evidence, firearm identification testimony. It's really more of an art than a science. That doesn't mean it's not any good. Same thing. DNA can mean very little.

Yeah, when you don't have any DNA. So technically what he's saying is true. But if those prosecutors were savvy, they would try to use everything you said in response to hearing that opening statement. You're right on the money. It's gone. Ballistic evidence has been around for decades. It's been around for centuries. DNA is some of the most accurate level evidence we often have. So you're absolutely right. When they talk about, oh, it's just kind of circumstantial evidence, it is a virtual certainty just based on some of the observations you just made as to the timeline of these events.

You know, Alan Bennett joining me, high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction. This is his jurisdiction, Austin, Texas. One way, for instance, that the defense could be right about DNA meaning very little is if the DNA is rightfully in that location. For instance, if you go look in my kitchen, you're going to find my DNA. If you look in my car, you're going to find my DNA. So what? It means nothing. So one way they could attack this, not to give them any ideas, is that their client, Caitlin Armstrong's DNA was rightfully and innocently on Mariah Wilson's bike. That's one way they could get around it. Then they could bring in an expert to try and discredit the ballistics information. But all

together, all together, it's painting a horrible picture. What about it, Dr. Bethany Marshall? Now, they're not going to have anybody on the stand to do what you do because, um, that, that would be inadmissible. But that said, we're not in a court of law. Explain to me this behavior. I mean, if I got to go out and follow a man around in the middle of the night and follow him and watch him having a hamburger with somebody, you know what? Don't need them. I got enough problems, enough to do. I don't want to add that in my schedule. Stalk David. No. What does this mean? Well, when the prosecutor said a mountain, it was the defense who said that she's buried under a mountain of evidence. Trapped, trapped. She's trapped. Trapped. I thought, of course,

she's trapped under a mountain of evidence because she's obsessed with Mo. Her psychological, behavioral, and physical fingerprints are everywhere. I'm surprised Armstrong was even able to hold down a job or do anything else. When people stalk, they are preoccupied. They stalk digitally. They stalk physically. They stalk psychologically. They start questioning other people about the victim. I mean, I think it would be interesting to ask all of Armstrong's friends if she was preoccupied with Mo and what was she saying and what was she talking about. But another way to think about this, Nancy, is something called obsessional paranoia. It's the paranoid, obsessional belief

that somebody's presence on this earth is negatively affecting you. And because of that, you have to eradicate them. And that's one of the main reasons behind domestic homicide. There's this idea that I'm too miserable if you live. I can't stand it if you live. I am trapped inside your presence in a painful kind of way. So she's not just trapped in the evidence. She's trapped in her painful thoughts and ruminating about Mo. You know, to you, Irv Brandt, the prosecution, and this is happening right now, is bringing on evidence of nefarious behavior that indicates guilt. What we know is that cops find the nine, the Sig Sauer 9mm.

The very moment that goes down, Caitlin Armstrong is caught on video selling her car. Take a listen to our 194. You'll see Taylor Armstrong on a video camera at CarMax in South Austin, near their home. She goes to CarMax and she sells her Jeep for $12,000. You'll see a video of her in her car, Max. On that same day, you'll see an Uber receipt. She rides an Uber to Austin-Berkshire Airport after she sold her car. So she sells her car and immediately takes an Uber and heads to the airport. So, Irv Brandt, is there any more of a textbook getaway? No, Nancy, there's not.

And you can call it a consciousness of guilt showing, you know, the reasons why. The defense will say that Armstrong travels a lot and is known to travel at the last moment, but who sells their vehicle for cash, gets on a plane, then uses another person's passport to go to another country to go under an assumed name and then have cosmetic surgery. It all shows that she flees, it's, you know, a consciousness of guilt.

And of course, Alan Bennett, a high profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction, Austin, Texas. The jury is going to hear about her escaping custody and going on the run, you know, 10 days ago. They're going to hear about that, too. Yes, Nancy, I think that is clearly admissible under our law to show evidence of guilt or a consciousness of guilt on Ms. Armstrong's part. The jury will have a mountain of evidence. Let's see what the defense does with it. But I can tell you this much.

A lot of tears in the courtroom today. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.