Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous model, girlfriend of Ashton Kutcher, stalked and murdered by serial thrill killer

Episode Date: May 23, 2019

A serial killer, who became known as the "Hollywood Ripper," stalks, slashes and kills beautiful young women in Hollywood, including an aspiring model who was dating sitcom star, Ashton Kutcher.And, he was hiding in plain sightNancy's expert panel weighs in:Joseph Scott Morgan: Forensics expert, and author of “Blood Beneath My Feet” Dr. Kris Sperry: Retired Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia  Randall Kessler: Defense attorneyDr. Jolie Silva: Clinical and forensic psychologistJohn Lemley: Crimeonline.com Investigative Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The body of 22-year-old Ashley Lauren Ellerin was found by her roommate early Thursday morning. Police say the stabbing happened Wednesday night. I remember like it was yesterday. I entered the house. There was two steps to the left here, and Ashley was laying across the two stairs,

absolutely blue and covered in blood. A sense of trauma just came over me. I thought maybe the person was still there and I kind of ran out and Ended up getting to the car and calling from my cell phone 911 It's so traumatizes me to this day Ashley Ellery was just everybody's daughter, living life and having fun. She winds up meeting somebody who's the wrong person and lost her life over it. You're hearing our friends at 48 Hours describing the death of a beautiful young girl in a serious romance with TV and movie star Ashton Kutcher.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. But it doesn't end there. Not only was movie star Ashton Kutcher's girlfriend found massacred, it went on. I observed quite a large amount of blood and and not too short a distance was Ashley's body. A lot of anger, a lot of rage. Somebody had isolated Ashley Ellerin, the killer,

and was very, very angry when he did it. It just was a very bad scene. Probably one of the worst I've seen. But what surprised the seasoned investigator even more was what he didn't see. Any evidence that would point to a killer. You know, we were just looking for any type of direction or clues that would, uh, to lead to a suspect. It was Ashley's friends that gave detectives that first and only clue, pointing them to a young man Ashley had met in the neighborhood months earlier. The information we have is that he introduced himself as a heating and air guy. A heating and air guy. You know, I'm in the middle of a massive manuscript about don't be a victim.

And one of the things I'm preaching is to know who is coming into your home, particularly repairman, cable guys, the heating and air guy, the hot water heater guy, the internet guy. Joining me, an all-star panel topic, Hollywood Ripper. With me, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet. John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, forensic psychologist, Dr. Jolie Silva, defense attorney, Emory Law School trial professor, Randy Kessler. And joining me, retired chief medical examiner, Dr. Chris Sperry. Dr. Sperry, when you find a scene like that, that is so bloody and so brutal. Sometimes it's very difficult to find the COD cause of death by just looking at the body. What do you do? After the seed is documented and

processed, of course, then once all the criminalistics is done, then it comes down to examining the body. And you're absolutely right that a body that is covered in blood, the blood can hide, oh, dozens, sometimes hundreds of different injuries. And so that requires just meticulous, careful cleaning and documentation and, you know, discovery. And that's the process. It's slow and tedious, but eventually all of the injuries will emerge from where they've been covered up by blood. Well, how do you clean the body to find the injuries? Well, again, you know, forensically, a lot of photographs are taken in the morgue before we

even start doing anything. And then the clothes, if there's any clothing, that's carefully removed, and it may have to be cut away. and that's preserved and kept for evidence purposes and then from head to toe i mean do you always cut it away or do you put on gloves and try to unbutton it but then you have to move the body right to pick the body up to take the clothes off well either way i mean there sometimes the, sometimes the blood is so dried and the clothing is so crusted that there's just no way to remove the clothing, you know, conventionally, unbuttoning, pulling it over the head, things like that. Also, cutting the clothing away really allows very minimal disturbance of the body itself. So, you know, clothing we can put back together,

but if we have to distort or move the body around, this could even, you know, destroy, say, trace evidence like hairs, fibers, things like that, that may be on different parts of the body. And so, you know, a great deal of care is taken to try to preserve the integrity of the body itself. But then you have to clean to preserve the integrity of the body itself. But then you have to clean all the blood off if the body is this bloody. And I'm talking about Ashley Eller and Ashton Kutcher's girlfriend. How do you get all the blood off to find the wounds? Soap and water, very carefully.

Just starting from the top and working your way down and, you know, inspecting everything very closely. Again, looking for hairs, fibers, anything that's foreign. But then just some warm water with soap and careful washing to wash the crusted blood away to expose the injuries underneath. What kind of soap? Oh, just plain old, actually Dawn works real well. So Dawn would be dishwashing liquid. Dish soap. Yeah, it works very nice.

It's very mild. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't damage the skin and it's, you know, as I said, it's very mild, so it doesn't really distort or change anything. Joseph Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. In order for somebody like Dr. Chris Perry to do what he does, the processing of the crime scene in a brutal and bloody crime scene, like with Ashton Kutcher's girlfriend, Ashley Ellrin,

I mean, when you walk into a scene like that, you better be prepared to stay many, many hours. And I remember at the courthouse shooting at Fulton County Courthouse, that crime scene was sealed off for days. Do you remember that? Judge Roland Barnes, for one, that I used to play softball with on the courthouse softball team. My dear friend Julie, the court reporter. And I remember that scene being cordoned off for days and days while it was processed.

Do you remember that, Randy Kessler? I'm looking at the courthouse out my window and it brings tears to my eyes every time I look at it. That was horrific. I mean, it can take days to process a crime scene. So explain to me, Joe Scott Morgan, how do you even tackle that? You have to have a plan to begin with. And I know that's a very short explanation, but you cannot just go in to an environment like this

and randomly begin to process the thing. You have to have people that have their specific jobs that are there as far as photography goes, measurements. You have to have what we refer to as a scribe, someone that is literally taking painstaking notes. As you move through it, you'll have a videographer many times that is videotaping the scene. And listen, one of the things I want people at home that are listening to this, think about a scene with a body there. And think about it in the shape of like a wagon wheel with the body being kind of the central hub and everything else radiates out from that, you wait to the very last moment that you can before that body is actually removed from the scene. Because if you go directly into the body, go directly into the body, then everything else can be destroyed. All those little

fragmented pieces of evidence, we're talking about, you know, a case here that's particularly violent. You'll have a myriad of blood evidence that's there, some of which might not be the victims. It could potentially be the perpetrator. You can have a fractured glass from a struggle, broken lamps, broken wood. In some cases, you'll have gunshot casing. So you have to be very, very careful. Okay, this is what I don't understand, John Limley. This is a yes, no, okay? Which is against everything you stand for. But Limley, isn't it true that movie star Ashton Kutcher was on the scene of the murder that night? Yes. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ashley Ellerin was a happy teen with a bright future. She grew up in the Silicon Valley town of Los Altos, California. Ashley was a member of the swimming team and grinned from ear to ear when posing with the water polo team.

She was class council treasurer during her junior year. In one yearbook photo, the bookish teen wears glasses. It's captioned, flashback. Ashley Ellerin takes time out of her hectic schedule to talk with a friend during brunch. Here, she displays a radiant smile with her arms draped around classmates. A few years later, she met actor Ashton Kutcher. It's okay. I know what to do. He was the sexy goofball on that 70s show, and his star was on the rise. Ashley was 22 and studying fashion.

In February of 2001, she was getting ready for a date with Kutcher. And Ashley Ellrin was stabbed 47 times. Movie star Ashton Kutcher on the scene the night Ashley Ellern stabbed 47 times. Listen to our friends at Inside Edition. On the night she was murdered, Kutcher had invited her to be his date at a Grammys party. Ashton Kutcher came here to Ashley's house to pick her up. He rang the bell, but there was no answer. Police say he then peered in the window and saw what he thought was wine on the floor.

There was no sign of Ashley, so he left. Turns out it wasn't wine at all. It was a pool of Ashley's blood. She'd been stabbed 47 times and was lying dead behind the front door. To John Lindley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, explain to me how was it that Ashley Kutcher was on the scene the night of her murder but was not arrested? What is his story? He had known Ashley a couple of weeks at this point. They had met at a Hollywood party. He was absolutely smitten with this aspiring fashion designer. And on the night, Ashton, as we've heard, stopped by Ashley's house to pick

her up for this post-Grammy Awards party. Ashton rings the doorbell, rings it again and again several times, but there's never any response. And at one point, just before he's about to give up, he peers into a window, and there on the floor, right in front of him, is pools of what he thinks is red wine. With no sign of Ashley, he finally leaves, of course, without his date. Ashley Ellerin, not the only murder victim. Take a listen. The violence that was visited upon her, if that's the right way to say it, was phenomenal. After she was dead, her body was somewhat mutilated. And you just, you know, that's crap you see in the

movies. In real life, that is very rare. It just doesn't happen. Like Ashley Ellerin, Maria Bruno seemed to have no enemies that would do her this kind of harm in your opinion it looked like she was killed just to be killed yes it was a bit of a puzzle I mean we were able to eliminate burglary or robbery and relatively quickly we were able to eliminate sexual assault as being a motive but unlike thein case, this time the assailant left something behind. Outside of Ms. Bruno's apartment was a blue cotton booty, like a shoe covering. Actually, on the sole of the booty was a drop of blood, and DNA testing proves that, in fact, it was Maria's blood on the drop of the booty. It was a clue, but it was also a dead end. No other evidence

was discovered. Well, you're hearing our friend Maureen Marr at 48 hours. The second victim, Maria Bruno, brutally murdered as well. But we believe the perp leaves behind a blue cotton booty such as the type doctors use when they are operating. To Dr. Jolie Silva, forensic psychologist joining us out of New York, what does that say to you about the identity of the killer? I mean, you know, I read reports that the booty was something that he had used for work. But, you know, maybe it was something, maybe he would put something over himself when he was committing the crime so that he wouldn't be caught.

I really don't know. It just sounds like it was extremely violent and disorganized the way that he was doing this to multiple women. To Randy Kessler, renowned defense attorney, professor of trial tactics at Emory Law School, Randy Kessler for a perp to leave behind a surgical booty. That tells me a lot about who the perpetrator is, Randy. It does. And, you know, psychologists always have a field day that people want to get caught

subconsciously. They want to have pride of ownership that this is not only something that they did but you know and this guy obviously was taking it to another level this was not his first rodeo he's done this unfortunately if it's him many times and and maybe he wanted to get caught maybe he wants the attention who knows how those minds act he wants to get caught you know randy you know and i think I've heard it all. I just ask you a question. He wants to get caught, wants to get caught. Those were just two of his many, many victims. So I guess your theory, if I, you know, follow your logic is he continued murdering and attacking to try to get caught. Let's talk about what it really means to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. It means this was pre-planned, even though there are multiple stab attacks, which we would normally associate with a frenzy murder. No, it's not a frenzy murder. It's not

a rage murder. It's very well thought out and premeditated. The guy is covering up parts of his body so he doesn't leave behind fiber, hair, footprints, nothing. That's why we can't get anything on him because he's covered himself. He's shrouded himself in surgical wear specifically not to leave behind evidence. That gives me a clue about who my killer is and it ain't Ashton Kutcher. No. In this particular case, Nancy, one of the things that my mind immediately goes to is that this guy has what we refer to as a murder kit or a kill kit. That is, he has a specific group of items and tools that he's going to utilize to perpetrate

a crime. This is not a disordered event. It's just that when you get into this environment, what the brutality that you're seeing seems frenzied. But this is this is something that will repeat itself over and over and over again. This guy is showing up prepared. He's showing up prepared. He's bold enough to come to this location and gain entry into this girl's life. And that's the scary thing. You were talking just a few moments ago about how people need to be aware. Listen, people that come into your home now to work on various things will wear shoe covers. It's part of their shtick. You know, they do that so that they won't mess your rugs up.

This guy has access and these things are available to him to go in. And he can justify if the cops stop him. Well, yeah, yeah, you know, I work on, I'm the cable guy. So I have to have these things covered in my shoes. It's one fallback position that he has. John Lindley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What can you tell me about the condition of Maria Bruno's body? Were the injuries similar to those of Ashley Ellerman, who is Kutcher's girlfriend?

This one seems to be even more brutal. It was Irving Bruno that actually found his ex-wife. There's a 911 call where he describes what he has found there. Maria's lifeless body laying on what he described as a pool of blood. Her throat has been slit and one of her breasts has been cut off. Listen. Anyone want to get inside? There's a pool of blood. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Trisha got home sometime after 1 a.m. With keys in hand, she went to the side of the house to let herself in. She never made it. The next morning, Trisha's father, Rick, was going out to his van.

I tried to revive her. That is the worst feeling in your life, when you can't do nothing for somebody you love. Trisha's mother Diane was at work and I just left work and jumped in the car and came home and I don't remember anything else. She had a lot of blood on her shirt or a blouse. Ray Solayevich was the first uniformed police officer on the scene. I was guessing she was stabbed numerous times.

I heard a lady screaming, and I turned and looked, because I was still in the front yard, and the mother is running towards Trish. I basically tackled her, and I didn't want her to see Trish like this and remember her daughter like that. Our friend, Maureen Maher, at 48 hours. John Limley, we're now on victim number three, Tricia Picaccio. Who is she? What happened to her? And please tell me she's not connected to Ashton Kutcher. Tricia Picaccio had been out with some friends.

She comes in around midnight or so. Some people say, some reports say 1, 2 a.m. Someone plunges a knife into her a dozen times right on the stoop of her home side door. And the next morning, as her dad is going out into the driveway to tinker with the truck some, her father finds her bloody body right there in front of the door. So she lives with her family? Yes, she's only 18. Wow, that's different from the other cases. So she's living with her family. She gets in around midnight, and she's stabbed right there.

Was there any robbery, John Limley? No robbery. Was there any sex assault? No. And that's true with the other cases as well? Yes. They're all very quick from what investigators say. Now, three similar attacks on young women, but then a fourth.

It's our belief that around 11.40 in the evening, he gained access into this window, which was open a few inches. Once he got inside there, he then opens the front door, kind of stages it as an escape route, proceeds into the bedroom where she's sleeping, and what awakes her is a knife being plunged into her. He just flat-out stabbed her. Right. She was stabbed multiple times in her chest and shoulder

and right arm. Suffered several wounds to both of her hands as she's grabbing this knife as it's being plunged down upon her, where those wounds all required surgery. And at some point, there's a lull in the action, so to speak. And she was able to get her feet up and kick him off of her and that's where he then took off running and left the location did he say anything to her ever I'm sorry he said I'm sorry I'm sorry

Wow you hear our friend marine mayor at 48 hours and we're talking about the fourth victim, Michelle Murphy, who miraculously survives yet another violent and brutal and seemingly frenzied knife attack. To Dr. Jolie Silva, forensic psychologist joining us out of New York, how do you assess someone that chooses to use a knife in attacks as opposed to, for instance, a gun or a blunt object? It is certainly a violent choice. It is certainly a choice that involves a lot more physically harder to use a knife. I mean, some of these knife wounds that were 47 times, a dozen times, think of the physical energy that goes into something like that. So, you know, it seems like there's an anger, a rage underlying it, and some kind of satisfaction gained out of the violence after the fact. Some type of satisfaction, yes, but not a sex assault. In fact, one woman, Tricia Picaccio, was stabbed dead right there on the stoop of her home trying to get in.

Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what does it mean to you? Yeah, with a knife attack, Nancy, this is very, very violent. And as opposed to, let's just say, for instance, a gun. A gun is a great comparison because you're at a distance with a weapon. It's very kind of depersonalized. With a knife, you have to be in close proximity to this individual. I mean, almost rebreathing their air, if you will, on top of them, plunging this knife over and over and over again. And there's also a certain level of threat that's involved with this.

You have the victim where you want them, and they see the sharp edge coming at them. It's absolutely terrifying. So we have four women attacked by the so-called Hollywood Ripper, most of them living alone or with roommates who were not at home at the time. What, if anything, does that mean? But there's one difference in the scene of Michelle Murphy. Listen. We have some blood on the steps and then blood on the concrete steps here leading out down this walkway and into the alley. Investigators followed the blood out to the street

where the trail ended, leading them to believe that the attacker was long gone. So how significant in your investigation and when you showed up that night, did you think that blood was going to be? Huge. Huge. About 25 days after submitting my samples to the crime lab, I'm informed by a criminalist that we actually have a hit, a DNA hit, a profile that was determined, I did get a match. So in one case, we get DNA blood evidence from the alleged perp. But at the same time, something very unusual is taking place. It first started with the flower.

He brought in flowers. I'm like, why is Michael bringing us? It was live greenery. At Easter time, he brought us a lily. He brought us a dinner certificate to a restaurant. And then he even brought him a shirt. It's like, wait a minute, nobody else was giving gifts to him. And I said to him, why is Michael giving us all of this stuff?

And we were telling the detectives at the time what was going on. It was enough for Cook County Sheriff's detectives Jack Reed and Mark Baldwin to take a closer look at Michael. One of the psychologists that was talking to us says he's trying to expiate his sin. He's trying to atone for his crime with the presence that he was giving the family. You are hearing our friend Marie Mara at 48 hours. Who is Michael and why is he plying the family of Tricia Picaccio with gifts after Tricia's murder? John Limley, who is Michael? He is a nice, polite guy, according to everyone who lives there in the neighborhood,

just 500 feet from where the murder took place. Well, okay, I like that you point out he's a nice guy, but Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Ted Bundy was charming. He was a nice guy, too. I'm not impressed by somebody saying he's a nice guy. No, look, if there's anything that's cliche in our businesses, I can't believe it happened in our neighborhood. He was the nicest guy. That's the family next door. That is definitely not going to work in a criminal setting. Well, now we've got him plying the family of Tricia Picaccio with gifts that don't really make any sense. A shirt, a gift card, or a gift certificate to a restaurant. So what, if any, would have been his connection to Ashley Ellerin? I was walking and then found him sitting in his car at the end of the street with the motor running.

And I went in and I just remember keep calling Ashley going, where did you find this guy? This is very odd. Why is this guy in front of our house at 2, 3 in the morning? Justin confronted him the next day when Gargiulo dropped by for a visit. I said, what the hell were you doing in front of my house at 2, 3 in the morning? He started to go on about how the fact

that he couldn't go home last night because the FBI was waiting for him at his home to collect DNA samples from Chicago some murder his best friend's girlfriend was murdered or whatever Ashley and her friends dismissed Gargiulo story as an unlikely fantasy but what no one realized at the time, it was true. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I was walking and then found him sitting in his car at the end of the street with the motor running. And I went in and I just remember keep calling Ashley going, where did you find this guy? This is very odd. Why is this guy in front of our house at 2, 3 in the morning?

Justin confronted him the next day when Gargiulo dropped by for a visit. I said, what the hell were you doing in front of my house at 2, 3 in the morning? He started to go on about how the fact that he couldn't go home last night because the FBI was waiting for him at his home to collect DNA samples from Chicago. Some murder, his best friend's girlfriend was murdered or whatever. Ashley and her friends dismissed Gargiulo's story as an unlikely fantasy, but what no one realized at the time, it was true. You're hearing our friend Marie Marr at 48 hours. So now I've got this guy allegedly sitting down the street at 3 a.m. in the morning in his car outside Ashley Ellrin's home. I've got him plying the family of Tricia Picaccio with gifts.

And I'm yet to hear about a DNA match regarding Michelle Murphy's brutal attack. So who is this guy, Michael Gargiulo? The methodical and systematic slaughter of women. Gargiulo grew up in suburban Chicago, played on his high school football team, and later worked as an AC repairman and a plumber. They also say he was a husband and a father. They allege what nobody knew is that he was leading a double life. Investigators are calling Gargiulo a serial sexual thrill killer who allegedly stabbed and butchered his victims. He's charged with both murder and attempted murder in four different attacks. In all the cases, they say the M.O. was the same.

Gargiulo's plan to kill was to first identify a target who lived near him, acquaint himself with that victim and her habits and routines, and then watch, shadow, stalk, and hunt down the victims relentlessly as part of his plan to kill. That's our friends at CBS2 News, Kara Finistrom. Wow, it's almost too much to take in. To Dr. Chris Sperry, retired chief medical examiner, what do you make of the MOs, the method of operation, and the causes of death and attacks on these four women,

four that we know of, Dr. Sperry? Well, it's an interesting contrast because the perpetrator obviously is planning things very carefully in great detail. He's preparing himself. He has, as Joe Morgan pointed out, a kill kit. I mean, he has everything put together to carry out his plan. But then once he gets access and overpowers the victim, then the amount of injury, I mean, multiple stab wounds, I mean, almost 50 in a couple of cases, that's what we would consider to be overkill. In other words, there's way too many injuries that would be necessary to kill the person. He just keeps stabbing and stabbing and cutting until, fortunately, except for the last victim,

but in the others, he keeps stabbing well past the time that they're dead. So it's an interesting mixture of careful planning that finally is an incredible outpouring of rage and hatred and just killing the victim over and over and over again until he's finally finished. Some describe him as the boy next door killer. I don't know if those words necessarily fit together. Listen. Michael Gargiulo for almost 15 years was watching. Always watching. And his hobby was plotting the perfect opportunity to attack women

with a knife in and around their homes. On one occasion, one of Ashley's friends saw Gargiulo staring into Ashley's house at odd hours surveilling her home. To you, Dr. Jolie Silva, forensic psychologist joining us out of New York. It seems as if as important as the actual murder was the stalking and the surveilling and the spying that this guy, Michael Gargiulo, would perform. It seems like part of a ritual. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, when you see serial killers, the fantasy that comes before it is quite common. The stalking, the plotting, the planning, the fantasizing. And sometimes in the very beginning, the fantasy alone brings that level of satisfaction. And then that's not enough. It's almost like a drug addiction, then I need more, and then I need more, and then I need more, until it keeps escalating, until there are killings, and then he needs a fix every time. But that stalking, that fantasy, usually precedes something like this. Take a listen to our friend Miriam Hernandez

at ABC7. Defendant Michael Garzullo first ingratiated himself to his victims. He was the helpful next-door handyman, only to stalk them, break in, then repeatedly stab them. The defense rebuts. Gargiulu's fingerprints were not found. Is there any physical evidence? As I said, no, there isn't. The 43-year-old is accused of two murders and one attempted murder in the LA area, but the DA says Gargiulu targeted his first victim in 1993 in Chicago when he was 17. His arrest though, too late for Maria Bruno. Her ex-husband found her mutilated body and called 911.

Okay. Anyone I can get inside? Um, there's a pool of blood. The alleged killing spree was enabled by skillful planning gargoyle knew martial arts studied forensic science and how to kill with a knife his cover he was an air conditioning repair man oh my stars reminds me so much of btk buying torture kill dennis raider who had a regular job as a dog catcher right there that would have raised a red flag for me. But had access to neighborhoods and could knock on doors and identify potential victims.

So he basically, Randy Kessler, defense lawyer, had a double life. Yeah, I mean, that's not uncommon. That's exactly what we were talking about before. The boy next door, the average person, everybody can be a suspect, and that's what's terrible about humanity. You never know who's next door. The reality is Joseph Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, he started, according to prosecutors, at age 17.

That we know of. There's really no telling how many other victims there may be in addition to these four. Yeah, that's the chilling part of this, Nancy. off. There's really no telling how many other victims there may be in addition to these four. Yeah, that's the chilling part of this, Nancy. You don't know with that gap of time that we're talking about here, you don't know who else is out there, who else is grieving because they're missing someone. And that's going to cause the police, I would think, in these locations where he has lived previously, take a long, hard look at this guy. To John Limley, CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter, Crime Online, where you can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news.

Where does it stand now, Limley? Gargiulo is facing the death penalty for the two California murders and the attempted murder charge. Now, after this trial, which some people suspect may last as long as six months, he'll be extradited to Illinois to face trial there for the killing of Picaccio. Randy Kessler, trial lawyer, why does every trial take so long in California? You know, prosecutors want to get it right. And sometimes they do too much. And that gives the defense a lot more to pick apart. But when you're looking at how to prosecute a case, you don't want to be the prosecutor that says, oh, my gosh, I just brought this one more piece

of evidence. It's one more witness. It's one more person to testify. So sometimes they do take longer than they need. And that may be what happened with O.J. Simpson, right, Nancy? You were there. Well, Kessler, Kessler, you're preaching to the choir. I say put it all out there down to the very, very last scintilla of evidence. Don't ever, ever say should have, could have, would have when it's on you to prove the case. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.