Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous Mom Missing Just Days before Son's 11th Birthday. LANDFILL SEARCH NOW!

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Heidi Planck is last seen leaving her son's football game at halftime. When she doesn't pick up her son at school on her scheduled day, family and friends realize something is wrong. Her dog is found 12 miles away from her home in a residential high rise, roaming the halls, but there's no sight of the 38-year-old. Now, police believe Planck is dead and are searching a nearby landfill for her body.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney, Cohen, Cooper, Estep, & Allen, LLC, www.ccealaw.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic, barebonesforensic.com John Elwood - Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue, www.manateecountysar.org, Twitter: @KarmatheSARdog, Principal Evaluator for the National Search Dog Alliance, Instructor/Evaluator National Association of Search and Rescue, 35 Years Sarasota County Fire Department, Mara Montalbano - Digital Reporter, InsideEdition.com, Twitter: @maramontalbano Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. A gorgeous young mom, literally a soccer mom, goes missing. She's caught on video walking her little dog. She seemingly goes into a high-rise building and never emerges. Left behind, her 11-year-old little boy asking, where's mommy? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. First of all, take a listen to our friends at Fox 11 LA. We just saw an LAPD patrol unit leave the landfill. We believe they're actually been stationed overnight guarding the remains,

the garbage that is now being searched, that search set to resume at daylight. But take a look at some video from yesterday's search. LAPD detectives with the Robbery Homicide Division using human remain detection canines, cadaver detection canines, began the arduous task of sifting through tons of trash here at the Chiquita Canyon landfill looking for the remains of Heidi Plank. Confirming publicly yesterday they believe that she is dead. The missing mother hasn't been seen since October 17th when a security camera captured her walking her dog in downtown Los Angeles. They believe she's dead but without a body that may not be true. Missing her little boy's birthday party is something that Heidi Plank would never have done. You were just hearing our friends at Fox 11. Now take a listen to our friends at NBC.

This was the scene at dawn at the Chiquita Canyon landfill. Numerous investigators preparing for what could be a week-long search for a missing mom. Detectives from the LAPD's Robbery Homicide Division putting on protective suits and boots to sift through potentially tons of trash by hand, searching for signs of Heidi Plank's body or other key evidence in the case. The city of L.A. brought in heavy excavators

to dig into places where trash from that downtown apartment building was transported. The LAPD now confirming forensic evidence to dig into places where trash from that downtown apartment building was transported. The LAPD now confirming forensic evidence found at the apartment building in downtown L.A. where Plank was last seen several weeks ago and where her dog was found soon after was a key clue that led to the landfill and the conclusion that Heidi Plank died probably the same day she disappeared. Did she? Or did she simply disappear? Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and thank you for being with us.

With me, an all-star panel. Before I introduce them, let me first go to special guest joining us, John Elwood, Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue. You can find him at manateecountysarsearchandrescue.org. John, thank you so much for being with us. You know, we just, as a matter of rote, just toss it off. There's a search at a landfill. It's anything but that easy. It's very difficult to do a landfill search. Sometimes I catch myself saying land field because it's usually a huge field as big or bigger than a football field. And you think of a woman's body underneath literally tons of debris, all sorts of debris, old furniture, trash, refuse of all sorts, her body decomposing, coming apart. And finding part of a body, say hair, a bone, in a football field size landfill. And we just heard our friends at NBC State,

they had to put on protective hazmat, in effect, clothing to do this. To you, John Elwood, explain to me how a landfill search is done. Sure, Nancy. First, you have to look at, I'm sure the detectives determined at what time the trash in that area may have been picked up. Landfills, how they normally work is that they're gridded out, meaning that they're filled by sections. So they would find out what truck number. Wait a minute, wait a minute. John, you got to slow down. On our panel today, you have practicing lawyers. You've got one forensic expert.

You've got a psychiatrist. And you've got a crack reporter from Inside Edition. But we're not experts at searches. So let's just start with that. We're going to have to dissect. Just be glad you weren't one of the witnesses I'd put on the stand. I'd have to take apart every word for hours and hours before you got on the stand so I could understand what you're saying. But when you say grid, let's just pretend you got a piece of paper and this represents the field.

I'll say divide into sections. How about that, ma'am? So then, hold on. What you would do is divide that big football field, I don't know if you can see this, into different sections. Tiny sections. Because who knows how deep the trash could be. Now, that's what it means, I think, to grid, grid out the field. Is that what you mean by gridding it? Yes, ma'am. They divide it into sections, and then they put in a certain amount of waste. Then

it gets covered by a layer of dirt, then more waste and then another layer of dirt. And how and the reason why I'm familiar with this is what the fire station that I used to work at in our primary response area, we used to respond to the landfill all the time. So when we had to tour the facility, they kind of explained how they do that. I don't know what you're saying about layers of dirt. You're saying that the searchers put layers of dirt or that the landfill does. Right. So the garbage truck comes in, dumps the refuge onto the ground, and then they bring in dirt to put on top of what was dumped, and then they'll put another layer of trash and then another layer of dirt. See, hold on just a minute. Daryl Cohen, a veteran trial lawyer,

was a former prosecutor in inner city Atlanta with me, now renowned defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta. Daryl, you and I have talked about landfill searches many times. Did you know that? There's a layer of trash, just think of a football field, and the dump trucks keep coming. I guess they dump around the field, not all in one spot. But then they put a layer of dirt on top of that.

Did you know that? I did not know that. Which brings up another question is how deep is this layer of dirt? Is it just sort of like topsoil or is it two or three inches or a foot thick? I didn't know that either, Daryl. I'm about to find out. Excuse me, to you, John Elwood, I wasn't going to ask that, but that's a good question. How much dirt?

It's usually a couple of feet. I mean, whatever the best management practice is. I mean, obviously, that's not my forte of waste management. But, I mean, I can just tell you that having been to responses at landfills, I'm just kind of familiar with their practice. Okay. So they grid it out. The searchers grid out the field. And then what? How deep is the trash typically? It could be several feet deep. Two feet or 12 feet? Oh man, it could be 20, 30 feet deep. Okay, let me just take that in for a moment. Let me just take that in because sometimes, you know,

I look at all my files that I've got all laid out. I think I've got to do this. I've got to do that for the twins. I've got to do this for my mom. I've got to go through all these files, and it's overwhelming. Can you imagine, Jackie, going up to a landfill 20, 30 feet deep of trash and debris, rotting, and you have to start looking for a decomposing body in a football field-size landfill? That's as deep as a house. That's as deep as a house.

I would assume that they would bring in dogs as well. Daryl, are you a landfill expert? I know you're used to shoveling the, you know what, but just can we get back to the expert just this one time? Daryl Cohen, I can't believe Dr. Angie Arnold has managed not to pipe in yet. I'll be right to you john elwood back to you okay landfill search go ahead so i'm sure the detectives have some leads that they've been following so they have an idea of approximate time that um miss plank may have been picked up you mean by the garbage guys yes ma'am picked up you make it sound like she's cashing an uber out on the

corner you mean once she's dead let's just pretend thrown down the trash chute on the whatever 21st floor into the trash. Then you're saying the detectives would figure out when the garbage from that building was taken to the dump and what part of the grid that trash was dumped. Correct. Okay. And that would give them obviously an area of interest and where one of your other panelists said that you could use canines and the thing about when you talk about human remains canines and cadaver canines just to differentiate between the two cadaver canines deal with a large source meaning it could be like a body part human remains detection canines deal in very small sources. It could be in

grams. So when you talked about bodily fluid, hair, a fingernail, something very small, that's what those canines can do. And what those canines could do is if you have an area of interest, then they could actually locate it to a certain point and then if you're familiar with how archaeologists do their quote-unquote digs where they take pvc pipe and they interlace it to actually form a little grid and then they'll start excavating that you're losing me you had me all the way up to interlacing pipe what yes ma'am if you if you think you're familiar with pvc piping the white plastic looking yeah yes ma'am white plastic pipe so what they do is they'll lay them out to form like small squares right and then they will start uncovering at the surface staying

within those small squares kind of coloring in the lines, so to speak, if that makes sense to you. So they put that on top and start digging down. Yes, ma'am. And then start working their way down. Why do they do that with a pipe? It's to help isolate and create an exact area. So if evidence is located, then what they'll do is they'll use GPS to mark the location of that as well as obviously forensics will take the pictures and collect the evidence. So you've got bloodhounds, I'll call them for lack of a better term, that could pick up on a

piece of tissue paper where a guy cuts his chin shaving, throws it away. You're going to pick up on all types of bodily fluids. And that's the thing with canines, not an exact science as far as when you're using human remain canines to find that particular person. All they're going to do is they're going to locate any type of human tissue or and that's where your forensics would obviously have to do dna testing to say yes it is indeed this person or no it is not so when you lay the pvc pvc pipe squares on top of the dump and you start digging down within that square what do you do with what you dig up put it in a bag? Obviously, material that is not related to the case, they'll put to one side and anything that they find as possible evidence, then they would go through their normal collection

procedures as far as documentation, tagging, and bagging. Because like if you throw it over your shoulder, you're just going to have to re-dig it up when you get to that square. Good lord. Yes, ma'am. And they have to wear hazmat suits. Also, John Elwood, why? Yes, ma'am. If you look at when you see the white suits, it's made out of a material called Saranac Tyvek, T-Y-B-K. And what that does is it gives the person a certain amount of protection because you think about anything and everything that people dispose of in their trash to include possibly biohazardous waste, you know, needles, things of that nature,

that you want to make sure that the gators are protected. That also brings a point to where canines may actually wear booties over their feet to protect their paws. Nancy, I'm going to jump in here. Yeah, go ahead with me as I was just about to introduce everyone. Karen L. Smith, you're hearing forensic expert, lecturer, University of Florida, host of Shattered Souls podcast. And you can find her at barebonesforensic.com. Jump in, Karen Smith. I've been to the landfill a few times, unfortunately, on searches for human remains. And I can tell you that we wear the Tyvek, yes, but when you're digging through this stuff on one dig, five of our investigators ended up with a staph infection, a very serious one, and a couple of them were hospitalized for it. So this

is very, very serious. It's very disgusting and dirty. When we dig through this compressed trash, and you have to remember, every time that layer of dirt and that layer of trash is placed down, John did a fantastic explanation of how that works, but it's compressed with a steamroller. So you're dealing with trash that has been pressed down to make room for the next layer. So it's not just that we're rooting through with our hands, we're using rakes, we're using shovels, we're opening bags, we're looking through every single thing and you asked what happens to the bag or the trash once we're done with it. There is a specific section set aside for things that have been through that do not contain forensic evidence. So that is set

aside. I got a question for you, Karen. I don't understand how, if you're covered head to neck, to wrist, to toe with protective hazmat covering, how does somebody get a staph infection? That's a really good question. I mean, you're dealing with sharp objects. I don't know if something may have pierced a glove or scratched their arm. What is that, Dr. Angie? You're not only a psychiatrist, but let me get you to fall back on your MD. What is a staph infection and why would these searchers get staph infections? And Karen said there were really bad staph infections. Doesn't that get into your blood? Yes, it can get into your blood. A staph infection is a certain type of bacteria that, I mean, Nancy, you know how when some people,

when we've heard these stories about people with flesh-eating bacteria and things like that, those are a type of staph infection. How do you get it? You get it by touching. It's by touching something. It's not by breathing it in. Some things we get by breathing in through our lungs. But these particular staph infections are by, and you know, Nancy, the problem is with this landfill where all this nastiness is, the staph can just be growing in there.

Okay? the staph can just be growing in there, okay? Much like, as I said, a flesh-eating bacteria. It can just be growing in that ground. It's a perfect environment. But when you say you touch it, what is it that you're touching? You're touching the actual, the ground has the bacteria in it. Just like people can go in the ocean, and if you have a little bit of an open wound, I mean, we all have little scratches on us, and the bacteria comes in through those slight open wounds.

That's why some people will get it and some people won't. You know, I've always wondered about that, Dr. Angie, and you just explained it. You know, we have devoted all this time to a landfill search, and we haven't even been talking about the missing victim, Heidi Plank, the mom. I said 11-year-old when I first started our program today. He had a birthday. Didn't he have a birthday, Jackie? Hold on.

I'm going to go to Mira Montalbano, reporter with Inside Edition. Mira, thank you so much for being with us. Typically, I start immediately with our reporter who knows the very latest. Did the son have a birthday? I believe his name is Bond. Did he turn 11 or did he turn 12 while mom is missing? I believe he turned 11. I believe he was 10 when she went missing and he turned 11.

But we haven't really heard too much from the son directly. I mean, I know we've heard from his dad mostly, Heidi's ex-husband, who has been out there. He really wanted to see her come home and to at least have her at his son's birthday party. But unfortunately, that doesn't look like that's going to happen. No, and a very devoted mother. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, with me, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now renowned trial attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining us also out of Atlanta. Karen Smith, joining us, forensic expert, University of Florida lecturer and host of Shattered Souls podcast. John Elwood, deputy chief with the Manatee County Search and Rescue at manateecountysar.org and investigative reporter with insideedition.com Mary Montalbano. Guys take a listen to Mary Beth McDade at KTLAS. The ex-husband of missing mom 39-year-old Heidi Plank says authorities are now searching an area of the Chiquita Canyon landfill in Castaic for her body. The mid-city woman was last seen on security cameras on October 17th, walking her dog outside the Hope and Flower building in downtown L.A. Her dog was found later that evening wandering on the 29th floor of the high-rise.

Forensic evidence was located inside the building, which led detectives to believe that an incident occurred resulting in Plank's death. Investigators won't reveal what that evidence is. I think that friends and family alike, we've kind of all been hyper-focused on the building from day one. Obviously, detectives believe the same thing. On November 4th, detectives found Heidi's gray Range Rover in a parking lot of a different residential building just two blocks away. Huh. Range Rover belonging to mom in a different building two blocks away. They find her dog wandering on the 29th floor of a high rise. What do they find that makes them believe they need to go search a landfill? First of all,

back to you, Mira Montalbano, joining us from InsideEdition.com. Where is Castaic? Oh, it's inland from LA. It's about, I mean, about 20 miles, I think. Yeah, it's not very close. So they're searching a landfill in Custay. Is that right? Chiquita Canyon landfill? That's right. Yes. And, you know, I mean, I've spoken to the LAPD as recently as yesterday and investigators are still out there. I mean, it's been more than a week now. They are still searching for anything. They would not say yesterday if they actually found anything, but they they are still looking for for Heidi, basically. Well, it reminds me just at first blush, you know, Dr. Angie, you and I cover the Gabby Petito, Brian Laundrie case, and the cops kept going back to Carleton Reserve, kept going back.

And I kept saying he's either not there or he's in there dead because they would have found him. But they kept going back for a reason. And like Mayor Montalbano was saying, they're not leaving that landfill. They haven't found anything, but they're not leaving. And there's a reason for that, Dr. Angie. They must know something. And I think, you know, Nancy, you know how it feels like it's always so shocking when I know during the Gabby Petito thing, we were all wondering, why do they

keep going back there? Nobody can live there. Why do they keep going back there? And my gosh, they found him there, didn't they? They certainly did. And the exact same thing is going to happen here. They aren't wasting their time. These people know what they're doing. And John Elwood joining us, Deputy Chief, Manatee County Search and Rescue. They are guarding the landfill at night. Why? Well, probably because of a chain of custody issues. And some of the panelists being attorneys know that a defense attorney is going to try to throw doubt as to somebody may have planted evidence as opposed to what is actually collected at that location. Yeah, Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, put it in legalese what he just said, and he's absolutely right about chain of custody. I'm going to take it out of legalese and put it

in. If we can't show that it stayed untainted, if we can't show that no one went in there, then it's subject to being thrown out. So that's not legalese. That's just dumbing it down for the jury or explaining it. Yeah, because I think some of those juries, jurors are smarter than you and I put together, Daryl. So let's not talk about dumbing down for the jury, maybe dumbing down for Nancy and Daryl, but not for the jury. So in other words, I think Jackie did it. That's what the defense lawyer will say. And Jackie here in the studio, she had the body hidden in her home this whole time. So she took it when nobody was guarding the landfill and she hid it there and then scurried away in the dark of night, that's what happened.

That would be an excellent argument for the defense, except but for the fact that as John Elwood's telling us, that landfill is guarded day and night to protect the evidence and the chain of custody should we ever find her body or her remains? Now you just heard Mary Beth McDade at KTLA 5. But how did this whole thing start? Take a listen to our friend at KCAL 9, Stacey Butler. Where are you? That was the last communication Heidi Plank's 10-year-old son had with his mom 11 days ago.

I said, can you please call me back? You haven't called me back in two days in a row. was the last communication old son had with his mom said, um, can you please haven't called me back in This is security tape of from palms with her dog n to her son's football ga 17th. She's leaving her h dog following behind her.

little purse under her ar and she jumps into her Range Rover and drives away. Headed to her son's soccer game. She was a very devoted mom. Now you heard little Bond state, mom, I hadn't talked to you in two days. That's because the mom and dad are divorced, amicable, get along, both heavily involved with raising their son. So he was with dad. That's why it wasn't immediately noticed she was missing. But on day two, you know what my son said to those of you that know him? Karen Smith, the other morning I was working and I couldn't be there to wake him up and turn on the music. Oh, what a beautiful morning by Gordon McRae from Oklahoma. I'm sure they're going to wake up years from now without ringing in their ears. He said, mom, I forgot X, whatever it was, because you weren't there. You weren't there playing the music and I didn't see you and I just,

everything went sideways because it is a certain routine. And here we first realize she's missing when the son alerts everyone, hey, I heard her from mom in two days. When I'm with dad, I talk to her every day. He didn't hear from her in two days. That's called routine evidence in that it is evidence of someone's behavior, their routine, Karen. Right. That was one of my first questions was, you know, does she speak to her son on a daily basis if the parents are divorced? You would think with Zoom and with FaceTime and all these other things, you would say goodnight to your child or, hey, how was your school day? Something like that. And the first thing that hit me was when was her last communication with her son? Now we know. And that starts the timeline of something obviously nefarious happening to her.

And you know what's interesting, Daryl Cohen? You and I have seen this a million times in cases that we've tried. I just remember what it was, my son John David, how I knew something was wrong when I finally went back to the kitchen. I saw on the den floor his strawberry shake. I make him a strawberry shake, organic. Every day, that's what he has for breakfast. Lucy's on a kick where she wants to make her own beautiful breakfast that she's obviously seen on instagram it's like fresh fruit and it's beautiful

i want to take a picture but i don't have time but i saw his shake daryl sitting on the floor by the sofa in the den i'm like he always takes that on the way to school and drinks it on the way to school. What happened? And it was half full. That afternoon I said, what happened? You didn't have your breakfast. And that's when he said, you didn't come in, you didn't play the music, I forgot everything and went crazy because it wasn't his standard routine.

And that is what this little boy noticed. Day two, hadn't FaceTimed with mom. How many times, Daryl Cohen, has one little detail like that solved a murder case? Nancy, it's not the big stuff. As you say, it's the little stuff. It's the little things that we don't even notice until they're not there. So they've solved numerous murder cases, numerous robbery cases, numerous rape cases. What happens is every day we've got to shake and all of a sudden it's half gone, half there.

Something happened. What's going on? You weren't in the Surrey with a fringe on top. You weren't having, oh, what a beautiful morning. What happened, mom? Something's going on. So his mom, who he's accustomed to speaking to, even when he's not with her, or especially when he's not with her, didn't talk to him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And back to Mira Montalbano joining us from InsideEdition.com, who's been on this case from the very, very beginning. Mira, again, thank you for being with us. That is seemingly what set the search into motion.

Tell me about the video that first emerged of Heidi out walking her dog. Where was that? Was that outside of her home? Are you talking about the latest video that's shot from the back? Because, no, that was taken. They said it was close to the last location where she was seen this yeah okay i'm glad you said that i'm glad you said that to differentiate between the videos the first video i think is her it's like ring camera or something like that at home coming out she's getting in the car to go soccer game soccer game. Okay, now, what video are you talking about? I'm talking about this video that kind of shows a woman from the back.

I mean, if the police didn't say that this was Heidi, I wouldn't have known because it's just kind of her from the back walking a dog on a leash. And, you know, that's kind of all, you know, we're seeing. But they're saying that this is the last video of her before she vanished. Now, this video is not near her home. This video is near the building where the dog is wandering around inside on the 29th floor. Now, listen, don't discount an animal taking an elevator because our frequent guest, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Ann Bremner, had a cat named Jimmy. She lives in a high-rise.

And Jimmy knew how to wait at the elevator on her high floor. And when a neighbor would get in, he'd hop on, and they all knew him. And he'd go to the floor he wanted to get to. And when the elevator finally would stop there, typically the lobby, Jimmy would get out and walk around and go where he wanted to go. And then come back and wait at the elevator until somebody would take him back up to Ann's floor. That is a true story. So there's more than one way for a dog to end up running around up and down the halls on the 29th floor.

But I want you to take a listen to end up running around up and down the halls on the 29th floor. But I want you to take a listen to our cut 23. Mary Beth McDade, KTLA 5. We're told on the day Heidi vanished, there's video of her entering the Hope and Flower building but never leaving it. And now detectives are searching that castig landfill for her body. I served a search warrant at the landfill to excavate a specific area, manually searching for human remains and to collect any additional evidence. Prior to her going missing, Heidi was caught on her home security cameras getting into a Range Rover to go see her son play football in Downey.

She left the game early, but later texted with her son. She wanted to congratulate him on his win. Her ex-husband thinks her disappearance could be linked to SEC charges against her boss, Jason Sugarman, at Camden Capital Partners for allegedly swindling some $43 million from a tribal nation. $43 million fraud? Now that was Heidi Plank's boss, is my understanding. Mayor Montalbano with us. That certainly thickens the plot, let me say. Take a listen to our cut nine. This is Christina

Gonzalez with Fox 11 there in L.A. Take a listen to Christina Gonzalez. A lot of the people who know her say they're getting calls from the SEC. It seems that she was never involved in this, but people she worked with out of a company, Nel Segundo, were being investigated. It's a financial company, a financial advising company, and there have been investigations

because of misuse of funds. Now, she was never investigated. She had nothing to do with it. But one of the principals was sentenced in 2020 to some time in federal prison. That is what they're looking at. Well, hold on just a moment. Daryl Cohen, a veteran trial lawyer, the boss is sentenced back in 2020. Wouldn't that be over and done with?

Or do you believe that somehow somebody is worried she, quote, knows something? Well, it seems to me, Nancy, it should be over. But then again, was there a trial? Is there an appeal? And does she know something? Is someone else worried that they're going to be thrown under the bus, which means they may be prosecuted and they may be at risk for far more problems than her boss got. Maybe her boss is rolling now that her boss is incarcerated. There's so many maybes that we need to determine what the maybes are and are not, and then start narrowing it down. You know, to Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us, there are now reports that Heidi Plank's boss, not Heidi, but the boss actually did business with members of one of the most notorious crime families in this country,

the Gambino crime family. Now, you get the mob in on this, people start going missing, Dr. Angie, and I will never understand. I often heard, and Daryl, I'm sure you'll agree, I'd heard a defendant say, I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. In other words, I was with the wrong crowd. And sometimes you do see a good person mixed in with the wrong crowd. Why would you stay in business or working for somebody that has connections with the Gambino crime family? I would run for the hills as if I had seen a monster. Dr. Angie, what is it? Do people think they're lulled into complacency? They think nothing

bad can happen to me? Well, maybe, I mean, Nancy, maybe she, maybe she needed to make a living. Let's, let's make it as simple as that. And, and they probably do lull you into a sense of wellbeing and they're, they're not going to, you know, I don't imagine the Gambino family says, look, if you make a wrong turn, we're going to kill you and put you in a landfill somewhere. Hey, look, she may also have been frightened and she may have been frightened. And once you realize you're so down deep, do you turn left, right, go up or down? The best thing to do is do nothing because she's frightened. And that tells me a lot more than the Gambino family, because I don't know the Gambino family.

They may know Luigi, who's going to be the hot boss or is going to break your leg. But she has got to be frightened at this point. And that may very well be the key to this whole situation. So you're suggesting she went on the run. I don't think she would have gone on the run without her son. No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that she was frightened and didn't do anything, and that may very well be their fear that she was going to open up

and start talking about all the little things that happened in the office that may or may not be instrumental in an additional prosecution. To Mayor Montalbano, joining us from Inside Edition, we know that cops have found something in that high rise, not the one where her Range Rover was parked, but the one where the dog was wandering on the 29th floor,

which shows me a lot of premeditation. Somebody had her parked there or parked her Range Rover at that building and got her in another building or vice versa, got her in the first or vice versa, got her in the first building where the dog is found and then moved her Range Rover. What did they find to send them on a search of a landfill, Mayor Montalbano? Cops are being vague. And I mean,

that's putting it lightly. They have not said anything about what they found. They haven't said, you know, what, where they found it. Even they haven't said if they found it like in an apartment building versus like one of the common areas of this like luxury building. So they are being purposely vague. And I think they're very much leaving open the possibility that this was an accident. Um, because they have, they're, they're not even saying that someone caused her death. Okay, wait a minute. Mara, Mara.

So an accident where her body disappears, that doesn't make any sense. I don't think that it's completely out of the realm for it to happen. Okay, how could it happen where her body disappears? How could that be an accident? What's one scenario where this was an accident that positive i i mean i know you touched on it like earlier in the show where you said you know falling down a trash chute or something i mean i i know it's uh from what you said you know like the scenario you put out there is like maybe someone put her in the trash chute but that

wouldn't be an accident would it if somebody put you in the trash? No, no, no. That wouldn't be an accident. And there are apparently surveillance video cameras. I know in the lobby of that building and I would assume on various floors of the building or in the elevators. She went in. She never came out. That's what we know. Yeah. Jump in, John. If I can offer another, I guess, tidbit, if everybody's focusing on canines being at the landfill.

But going back to the questions that the panelists have asked, what directed them to the landfill? They may have used canines actually at that building of interest. They could have used cadaver slash human remain detection canines searching her apartment, the trash chute areas. And then they could have also even used tracking canines, because I did this a couple weeks ago where a vehicle was present, the person was missing. We go to the vehicle, we search from the vehicle, obtain the person sent, and found their direction of travel. So they could do several different diagnostics to rule things out or to find it proof positive.

Guys, the tip line, 213-996-1800 or toll free 877-527-3247. Where is Heidi? Nancy Grace, Crime crime story signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an I heart podcast.