Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous mom of five disappears from wealthy enclave just after morning school drop-off

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

Missing mother of five, Jennifer Dulos, drops her children off at school and disappears. Her car is found at a nearby park. Police bring her ex-husband and his new girlfriend in for questioning. Nancy has the latest.ANDPolice combing through the rubble of a burned down home, find the bodies of Danny and Kathy Freeman, who had been shot and killed. Their teenage daughter, Ashley, and her best friend Lauria Bible are missing. The case grows cold, until a new suspect emerges.Nancy's expert panel weighs in:Joseph Scott Morgan: Forensics expertKenya Johnson:  Atlanta prosecutorDr. Patricia Saunders:  Clinical PsychologistDr. Kris Sperry:     Retired Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia  David Mack:    Syndicated Radio HostAlso...Bobby Chacon: FBI Special Agent, retiredCaryn Stark: PsychologistJohn Lemley: Crimeonline.com investigative reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 9-1-1, what's the location of your emergency? Yeah, I'm worried about my wife and kids because they left to go to New York and I haven't been able to get in touch with them. Okay. They were going to New York. What's the license plate on the car? Excuse me? What's the license plate on the car? I have to get this for you.

Okay. Who's the car registered to? It's registered to my wife's name, Jennifer Dulos. Spell the last name for me. Dulos, D-U-L-O-S. Jennifer, G-A-E-N-N-I-F-E-R? Yes. Your hair or date of birth? It's September 27, 1968. They were driving with a baby fear. I can give you a whole car as well. Okay, what kind of, hold on, hold on. What kind of car were they driving? It was a Range Rover. It was a Range Rover?

Yep. Hold on, let's see. A black 2016 black Land Rover Range Rover? Yep. A mother of five goes missing. The days are ticking by. Investigators searching the husband's $4.3 million mansion to no avail. Where is Jennifer Dulos? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. You just heard part of a 911 call where the husband is calling police. Fotis Dulos, the husband, and this is what we know. She, Jennifer Dulos, drops her children off at school. She's never seen again.

Her car found abandoned. But why? Who, what, where, why, and when? With me, an all-star panel. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Professor Joseph Scott Morgan. Veteran Atlanta prosecutor Kenya Johnson.

Psychologist joining us out of New York, Dr. Patricia Saunders, right now to syndicated talk show host Dave Mack. Dave, I want to start at the beginning. Where did she go missing? When did she go missing? She dropped her children off at 8 a.m. The next thing we know is that she missed an 11 a.m. appointment. At 12 noon, the cleaning lady came by and there was nobody home. So the police have tightened the timeline down to the last time she was seen. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Dave Mack, sorry, but the minutes are ticking by. I've

got to isolate something you just said. She dropped the children off at school 8 a.m. and let me just tell you, these people aren't slouches. They live in a very upscale area, possibly one of the most expensive areas outside of 90210. It's around the New Canaan area of Connecticut and I learned living in New York that all the rich people would leave after work and take a train to New Canaan. I mean, they're really, really wealthy people. So I can't identify where the woman was living. The husband was living in a $4.3 million mansion, but they had split up. Long story short, this is where I'm going with this, Dave Mack. 8 a.m. to 11 a.m. With me, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Joe Scott Morgan, I need you on this one. You know, when I'm up making a cup of hot tea first thing in the morning at about 5 a.m., I do not expect a kidnap to go down. What I'm saying is I've been prosecuting for many, many years, and it's much

more unlikely for violent crime to occur first thing in the morning. Now, this is just anecdotal for me, but it's rare when you see a kidnap or a murderer or a violent crime occur first thing in the morning. What is that? I always say I felt perfectly, perfectly safe going out and hand-delivering subpoenas first thing in the morning because all the dopers would still be asleep like vampires. So what is it? The crimes do happen, but it's very rare first thing in the morning. Yeah, you're right, Nancy.

I mean, even SWAT teams and, you know, drug task force, like you had stated, they will go and serve warrants at these violent offenders' homes, generally at that period of time, because you know these people are not going to be out of the bed by that time. Oh, oh, H-E-double-L. No, because they've been up all night long breaking the law, selling dope, driving around town trying to steal things and arm rob you can set up a whole battering ram outside a doper's door at 6 a.m they they won't

know anything's going on they're dead to the world till about 3 p.m so can i just get a yes no on that joe scott yes so dave matt you're telling me she goes missing between 8 and 11? She either wanted to disappear and get away from her life mighty early in the morning, or somebody took her, and we don't have any signs of her clothes being packed or a bus ticket, a plane ticket, nothing like that, do we, Dave? When the police actually went to her rented home in New Canaan, they found traces of blood and obvious signs that it had been cleaned up so that the maid could not realize what had happened. So I'm assuming they used luminol or something along those lines to determine that it was enough blood. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Who is they? Who used luminol? I'm sorry, the police. The police all converged on her home to try to find her. And again, we've got an 8 a.m. dropping off at school. By 11 a.m., she misses an appointment. And by 12 noon, the maid says there's nobody here. When the police show up to investigate, they find traces of blood at such a level that they believe it had been cleaned up in an effort to conceal it from the maid when she arrived at noon.

Wow. Okay. That's putting a whole new light on everything. been cleaned up in an effort to conceal it from the maid when she arrived at noon wow okay that's putting a whole new light on everything hold on jackie howard here in the studio is waving her arms saying didn't he say the husband that she was on her way to new york but wait a minute something is is off jackie have you actually played the 911 call from 2017? Yes, she has. Okay, why is there a 2017 911 call?

What is that, Dave Mack? Nancy, the Dulos marriage was very contentious, and Jennifer actually filed for divorce in 2017, and that's when that call was made. She actually left with the kids to New York, but she went to get away from him, to hide from him, because she feared that when she served the papers, according to what she wrote, that he would be violent towards her. So she actually knew this was going to happen. It was all filed with the court. And when he called 911, he hadn't been served the divorce papers yet. He didn't know where his wife had gone. He got the divorce paper after that 911

call. Let's take a listen to more. Jackie, I'm actually glad you played the 2017. Let's listen to more of it. 911. When were they supposed to be there? They were supposed to be there at 9 a.m. Hello? Okay.

They're not answering their cell phones. Okay, what's their cell phone number? It's 860-604. 604? No, 604. Yep. Okay. 9406.

Okay, you keep breaking up, sir. I need you to hold the phone to your face because I keep hearing you really far away. Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed. 860-604-9406. That's my wife's cell phone number. Okay, and who's the other person that's with your wife? He goes on to list all five children missing, five children all gone with her. This is after she files for divorce, but that was way back in 2017. What I want to know about is the car. What can we learn from the car? Take a listen to our friend at Fox 61.

This is Samara Abramson. 50-year-old Jennifer Dulos was reported missing Friday night around 7.30. Police saying she was last seen driving a black 2017 Chevrolet Suburban in New Canaan. A silver alert was issued. I hope and pray someone knows something and she is found. A source telling Fox 61 that the state police major crimes unit is assisting New Canaan police to investigate her disappearance. Jennifer, a mother of five who filed for divorce in 2017 from her husband Fotis Dulos, and has been involved in a long custody battle with him. People who live in town have noticed an increased police presence. I was going for a walk early Sunday morning through Waveney Park,

and I noticed a car parked by the side of the road and there seemed to be a policeman photographing the car. That's right and it was her car, Jennifer Dulos. She takes her children to school 8 a.m. and the next thing you know by 11 a.m. her vehicle is abandoned. We know that it is a 2017 Chevy Suburban. You just don't find abandoned cars and young moms missing in New Canaan, Connecticut. Very, very unusual. To Dr. Patricia Saunders, psychologist joining us out of New York, what about it? That telephone call that Drew made saying that his family was missing was the night before he was actually served the divorce papers. He sounds surprisingly calm on the 911 call.

One of the statements that Jennifer had made was she listened to years of sickening revenge fantasies from her husband, planning harm, physical harm, to people who he felt had wronged him. So she had stated that she was afraid of her husband and that he would find some way to get revenge for her divorcing him. You know, Dr. Patricia Saunders, you know my husband, David, very, very well. And all the time I've known him, which goes all the way back to college, I've never once heard him talk about revenge, ever. I mean, you know, he's in business, and business deals go up, and business deals go down. And sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

I've never once heard him say, I'm going to get that guy. Never, never once. Guys, hold. I've got to thank our partner making today's program possible as we join the search for a missing mom, Jennifer Dulos. It's Blink. Two questions about dad that will predict what he will love for Father's Day. Are you ready first? Is dad a gadget guy? If so, good. Second question, does dad worry about keeping the family safe and the home secure? Absolutely yes. Then this Father's Day is a no-brainer. You will be the superstar if you get

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Blink is an Amazon company and it works with Alexa. Blink, thank you for being our partner. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Day nine of Jennifer Dulos' disappearance, state police continue searching for clues and evidence into what happened to her. Earlier this week, Channel 3 learned Dulos was going through a divorce and custody battle with her estranged husband. Sources tell our sister station CBS2 in New York, police have found no activity on her cell phone or credit cards since her disappearance last Friday. Law enforcement sources told Eyewitness News blood

was found during the search and that search in New Canaan has expanded to include other towns, including Hartford. State police there looked at security footage and dug in trash cans for evidence while canines walked several streets between Homestead and Albany Avenue. Missing mom Jennifer Dulos, the minutes, the seconds, the hours ticking by, turning into days. Her five children want mommy. So far, all we've got is an abandoned car. Take a listen to what our friend, news reporter Carolina Cruz at WFSB Channel 3 has to say. Late Friday night, a report of a foul smell led police to Hartford's Keeney Park. Officers returned yesterday at daybreak, but investigators told Channel 3 the

odor may be from a dead animal. Our law enforcement analyst, retired state police spokesman, Lieutenant J. Paul Vance, who spent 43 years with the department, said the search is spread across so many cities and towns because they're working together, sharing information, developing information, all in an effort to put this puzzle together. Certainly, they take information confidentially. Confidential informant or source can provide that information to law enforcement. It's got to happen. People have to help law enforcement answer every single question surrounding this case as to what happened to this missing mother. The search is on for Jennifer Dula. She's absolutely gorgeous. She's the mother of five children.

The police presence heavy. I've taken a look inside the husband's home. You know, there's all those real estate apps, and you can find the inside of homes, for instance, on Zillow and so many others. Man, this guy must be rolling in money. I'm just wondering how, if in any way, the family is helping to find her. Of course, they're estranged. They're separated. But still, she's the mother of his child. Take a listen to this. State, local, and federal law enforcement have teamed up. They're looking for her on foot with canines in the air through the use of drones. The 50-year-old is the mother of two sets of twins, including three sons and two daughters, all under the age of 13.

She was involved in a heated divorce and child custody battle with her estranged husband, Fotis Doulas, for nearly two years. There are almost 500 court filings involving their divorce proceedings. There was a scheduled court date Wednesday for their legal proceedings, but the date was postponed one day after a court-appointed guardian for the children filed a motion for a status conference regarding the safety of the children. Jennifer Doulas filed for an emergency order for full custody that was denied in 2017. The couple had a shared custody agreement until the divorce was finalized. And it gets thicker here, too. Doulas said her husband had been having an affair before they separated in 2017, that he had purchased a gun. And he stated in court documents

that he purchased the gun simply to protect his family and that he would never harm his wife or his children. A lawyer for Fotis Dulles filed a letter with the court saying that the children are staying with Jennifer's mother in a New York City apartment under the protection of an armed guard. There has been no comment from Fotis Doulos as the search continues here today. You're hearing our friend at Fox News, that was Laura Engel. What do we know right now? Jennifer Doulos, mother of five, missing. To Kenya Johnson, felony prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Kenya, question to you, why is it that cops, detectives must start with the husband, the ex-husband, the boyfriend, the lover? Why is that? Why do they look there first?

Well, these are the people that are closest to the missing person. So that's where you go to at least eliminate people. If you eliminate people and you can gather information, then you have a starting point for an investigation. But patterns are really important in this situation. Someone that does the same thing at the same time is vulnerable. When someone wants to do them harm, they know exactly where to get to them. And random strangers don't typically clean up after a particular crime. So the fact that it looks like someone tried to clean up blood indicates this is someone that knew exactly what she was doing, where she was, and when she could possibly be vulnerable.

So now investigators are looking at the people close to her. They're looking at intent, motive, and means. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensic at Jacksonville State University, let me ask you a question. It seems to me that if she dropped her children off at school at 8 a.m. and then you find blood that seemingly is cleaned up in the home that she came back, that says to me she came back from taking them to school and I'm wondering if she stopped anywhere along the way, McDonald's for a cup of coffee, the grocery store, whatever's open at 8 a.m., came into the home, and that's when the attack occurred because her car by 11 a.m. has been found abandoned. Yeah, I think so too, Nancy, and to Kenya's point, I think that whoever's

involved in this, they have to know her timing. They have to know that she would have taken those kids to school, and then they would have had to have had access to this area in which this blood is found. And this is going to be essential. I don't know what you're saying about access. They could break in or get in with a credit card at the door for falling as she left the door unlocked. But as far as timing, I believe that's when the incident occurred.

I mean, it had to. If that blood wiped up is related to her disappearance. In the last hours, we learned that the husband has given DNA samples straight out to David Mack. There have been a lot of breaks in the case during the last couple of hours. Dave Mack, joining me, syndicated talk show host. What's the very latest? The latest that we have is that Jennifer's husband, Fotis Doulas, and his girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, they were both taken into custody

and charged with hindering prosecution and tampering with evidence over the weekend in relation to the disappearance of Mrs. Doulas. Okay, that's not good, because if they are in any way trying to cover up or tamper with evidence or keep police from finding evidence, why would they want to do that unless they've got something to cover up? Now, a defense attorney will argue tampering with evidence or obstructing police does not a murder make. But if they're – what other reason would they cover up evidence or tamper with evidence or obstruct police in their investigation? Dave Mack, you know, what we've got now is we've mentioned many times about the blood being cleaned up at the new cane and rental home that Mrs.

Dulos was living in. Well, they've gotten the DNA broken down from that. And that was part of the investigation over the weekend prior to his arrest. Mr. Dulos actually had given a DNA sample and hair follicle samples that they're running against some of the other evidence that they found. They're working multiple crime scenes, Nancy, as you mentioned, from the SUV, the rental home, plus two multi-million dollar properties that are directly attached to Mr. Dulos. If you have information about the disappearance of Jennifer Dulos right now, her children are being kept under armed guard with their grandparents. Please call Nicanan Police,

203-594-3544. Repeat, 203-594-3544. The search goes on. crime stories with nancy grace laura bible a happy baby and child today her mom laure, shared these pictures and many other things we've never seen before. Laura's kindergarten report card and her book of math with division and multiplication tables. She had written her name on the front in cursive. And I advised her to be very outspoken, speak up for yourself, you know, not be timid. You know, you can be anything, anyone you wanted. But Laura is forever stuck at 16 years old. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BE ANYONE YOU WANTED. BUT LAURA IS FOREVER

STUCK AT 16 YEARS OLD. IT'LL BE 19 YEARS LATER. HOW IS IT 19 YEARS BEFORE YOU KNOW ANYTHING? LAURENE STILL HAS LAURA'S CHEERLEADING UNIFORM. SHE LOVED TO CHEER. AND THE SHIRT FOR HER LAST

SCHOOL PICTURE. TRAGICALLY, THAT PICTURE WOULD BE USED FOR HER MISSING POSTER. BUT LAURENE IS GRATEFUL FOR THE CAUSE OF THE CHOICE. SHE'S A CHILD WHO HAS A CHOICE. SHE'S A CHILD WHO HAS A CHOICE. SHE'S A CHILD WHO HAS A CHOICE. She loved to cheer and the shirt for her last school picture. Tragically, that picture would be used for her missing poster. But Laureen is grateful for the continued support of so many who want to help her find answers. You just keep the word out and hope that that one person will be out there that'll say,

okay, today's the day. I'm tired of dealing, you know, this burden on me. Here's what I know. You're hearing our friends at Fox 23 News in Tulsa and a mom, Lorene Bible, talking about a disappearance, and we now know death, of her daughter, Laura. Joining me, an all-star panel, John Lindley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter

where you can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist joining us from Manhattan. You can find her at KarenStark.com. And special guest, FBI Special Agent Bobby Chacon. John Limley, tell me about the disappearance of these two girls, Laura Bible and Ashley Freeman. This took place during Christmas break in 1999. The girls were off for two weeks and they had spent a good bit of the days leading up to and coming out of Christmas at each other's homes. And on this night, Ashley

Freeman was celebrating her 16th birthday with her 16-year-old best friend, Laura Bible, and her parents, Ashley's parents, Danny and Kathy Freeman, and her boyfriend, Jeremy Hurst. They celebrated at the Freedman's home there in Oklahoma. Jeremy left about 9.30 that night. Sometime during the night or the early morning hours of December 30th, a fire for signs of the Freemans and Laura. Kathy was found dead, but Danny in the immediate hours and the girls' bodies nowhere to be found. So it sounds to me, Bobby Chacon, that someone kidnapped the girls and then burned down the home to cover up a crime scene. Well, yes, but initially, as John just said, that the girls were missing,

and initially when they really ended their initial crime scene at the fire in the mobile home, the father's body was not there. So initially there may have been thoughts that the father somehow took the two girls somewhere. However, through sloppy police work and crime scene work or whatever, it was Laura's Bible's parents who were sifting through the rubble of that fire looking for clues that came across Mr. Freeman's body. Somehow the police investigators missed it.

They recovered his wife's body, but his body was not recovered. It wasn't recovered until one of the victim's parents, a missing girl's parents, were sifting through the rubble, and they saw his body was not recovered. It wasn't recovered until one of the victim's parents, a missing girl's parents, were sifting through the rubble and they saw his body. And they notified authorities who then came and got it. So I think there was some missteps made early on in the investigation, particularly at the crime scene. When you find a home totally burned beyond recognition and the two girls are missing. Their bodies never recovered. I'm back at my question.

They're gone, and the house is burned down, and both the parents are found. Right there, it looks to me like that's covering up a crime. Arson is used to cover up a crime. Whether the girls ran away and burned down the home or they were abducted and the perp burned down the home. Well, sure. And I think an examination of the bodies both found that they were shot, I think execution style. And so, you know, the medical examiner then came up with the fact that, yes, it does. We confirm what it looked like. It looks like there was a crime happened in this house. The parents were

murdered. The house was set on fire to cover up. And then the girls were, for whatever reason, then abducted from the house. To John Limley, what happens next? Well, one reason that investigators fairly quickly rule out that Laura and Ashley might have had anything to do with the murdering of Ashley's parents or the fire is that Laura's purse was left behind. She had some money that she had received for Christmas, 200 bucks, and her driver's license, all still there at the scene. To Bobbage Cone, how does Ronnie Dean Busick fit into this scenario? So the, let me backtrack a little bit on the investigation. So the family of Lori Bible, I believe, hired two private investigators two years later because the trail ran cold.

And they then went about reinvestigating the case. And early on in the case, they discovered that an insurance card from a vehicle belonging to his girlfriend was found at a road leading away from the crime scene. I don't know the exact distance, but it gave them enough pause to say, you know, they contacted that woman whose vehicle that insurance card belonged to, and she claimed not to have known why. But that was the first piece of evidence tying him to the crime. His girlfriend's insurance card for her vehicle was found in the vicinity. To Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining me out of Manhattan. Karen, when you look back and you see, for instance, what is apparently a mistake made by the perp where they drop something at the scene, a lot of times many

people read too much into that. They think they subconsciously wanted to get caught. I disagree. I think they just screwed up. Yeah, I don't think he wanted to get caught at all. Although, Nancy, he was very proud of what he did. And these guys, they would let people know about it. They would show pictures. They were true criminals and true psychopaths. They really enjoyed the suffering that they caused. So to you, Bobby Jacone, how do you piece the facts together? What do you think happened?

Well, in going back and now interviewing, because the case was so cold that people are now willing to talk a little bit more freely about it, two of the three suspects have passed away. And so now they're becoming, through these new interviews, they're developing a picture of what may have happened. And these people are telling investigators that there were Polaroid photographs of the girls in their final days in the home of one of the suspects. And they were bound and gagged and on a bed. And in some of those pictures, one of the suspects actually appears. Now, these Polaroid pictures are long gone, and no one knows where they are, but enough people saw them, and these guys were almost bragging or showing off these pictures for a number of years. And over those years, enough people saw these Polaroid pictures that it started to build a picture for investigators of what happened to these girls. Let me ask you this, Bobby Chacon. Do you think there's any hope of finding a body?

You know, I always have hope that we'll find some evidence of the body depending on how much decomposition has taken place. But, you know, there's always hope that, and I've worked, you know, I'm a forensically trained person. I've done crime scenes for a number of years and I know my colleagues in the crime scene world, you know, they painstakingly find things that we never think we'll be able to find. And my hope is that if the one remaining live suspect lets the families know where those girls are, they talk about a pit in the area where find some DNA and let the families know, give them some sense of something that they can take away, that they know where the girls ended up. To John Limley, do you believe there's any chance a deal will be cut with Ronnie Dean Busick, whereby he will give up the location of the girls' bodies.

That is what investigators are hoping against hope that might happen. You know, Nancy, one witness reportedly said that a conversation between the three men suspected in this case had implied that the Freeman parents had been murdered over a debt. And that witness said the suspects had also hinted that they had taken the two girls and eventually killed them. Listen. Today, charges were filed against Ronnie Dean Busick, who by law is presumed innocent of the charges. Mr. Busick is charged with acting in concert with two other men as follows. Four counts of first-degree murder for killing Kathy Freeman, Danny Freeman, Ashley Freeman, and Laura Bible. Two counts of kidnapping for the abductions of Ashley Freeman and Laura Bible, and a final count of first-degree arson

for setting fire to the Freeman home. These young ladies' final days were certainly horrific. In today's announcement, no doubt comes as little solace to their grief. It's been a goal of our administration to help bring those involved in these crimes to justice and locate Lori Bible and Ashley Freeman. Today is a major step toward that goal was taken with the arrest of Ronnie Busick. We want to convey to everyone we will not stop working until we bring Lori and Ashley home. We're asking for any information that will help us find the girls that have been missing for more than 18 years. We will never quit searching, and we will do what is necessary to bring them home to their families.

The main investigators in this most recent phase of the Bible Freeman case have found witnesses that proved that three co-defendants talked a lot. There was physical evidence in the form of photos and we can be certain several people out there could come forward right now and tell us where to find Ashley and William. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Bobby Chacon, there are a lot of witnesses, many witnesses who know the suspects and have given investigators reason to believe the girls, after their murders, were thrown down a mine shaft, if that's true. I mean, I find it very difficult to believe that every mine shaft is going

to be searched and we're going to somehow, all these years later, find their bodies. Yes, it would be a very difficult endeavor to search areas like that without some assistance from you know the one remaining defendant or or the one person who might know where the bodies were disposed of so i think that i think investigators prosecutors are probably working pretty hard on uh... working with that uh... that defendant and and possibly offering something of a deal to give up where those bodies were, at least an area where they can narrow down the searches.

And if you can give a general area, then they can get more specific and go in. But you're right. I mean, it's virtually impossible when you have such a larger area to search. You always try to take steps to narrow down where you look. And when you're talking about places like quarries and mine shafts that are just enormous, you really do need the assistance of someone who may know a little bit more information about where those bodies are. To John Limley, what, if any, evidence is there against the remaining defendant, Ronnie Dean Busick? So what the case is really being built, the foundation is witness statements that link Busick, along with Warren, Philip Welch, and David Pennington to the killings.

Now, these other two men have since died, but the prosecution is really relying on these witness statements to move their case forward. Witness statements that say what? The witness statements have conversations with these three men about the killings. Apparently they were quite open with some of their closest friends about what they had done to this family and about the fact that they had abducted these two girls. Bobby, what's the likelihood they can prove a case this old without a body? Well, this is a tough case. This is probably the toughest of these cold cases because, you know, we're not dealing with DNA like we usually see in some of these cases. You know, and we're not dealing with a body, like you said. And what the defense obviously will do is rip into each and every one of these statements and suppose so-called witnesses that have come forward now and say these three gentlemen were involved in a drug conspiracy. They were known drug dealers.

They worked together, and they had a relationship with the Freemans, and it might have been a dealer-consumer relationship of drugs. So the theory is there. It's very short on physical evidence right now in this case. So, you know, I'm not a prosecutor, but, you know, as a prosecutor, you know that, you know, when you're so short on physical evidence, the jury has to kind of make that leap of faith and put faith in the witness testimony who say, you know, I saw these photographs of the girls. These guys were bragging about it. This is what they said. But you're right. This this case is is sorely missing a lot of physical evidence. What about the theory that there was a police

cover up, John Limley? The police and Ashley's parents were they were familiar with one another quite a bit. And I don't know what you mean by that because of their drug dealings uh danny and kathy uh the police had a good number of occasions to deal with the parents are you trying to say they had arrested the parents before okay karen stark psychologist now there are claims that there was a police cover-up. Have you noticed, for instance, in the O.J. Simpson case and so many other cases, that's just one I'm pulling out of the hat, the defense will argue either police incompetence or a police cover-up as a defense.

It's kind of a go-to defense. Well, you've got nowhere else to go, Karen Stark. And it's so hard to prove. It's kind of a go-to defense. Well, you've got nowhere else to go, Karen Stark. And it's so hard to prove, you know, making of a murderer, making that whole thing where they're saying there was a police cover-up, and they don't get anywhere with it. It's just an easy way to blame the police for that. What is it?

Bobby Chacon, you've got to see a pattern emerging that when a defendant has nowhere else to go, they claim a police cover-up. Sure. You know, the old saying is when you can't blame the fact, when you can't explain the facts, you attack the police. And so that's the age-old defense tactic is you always, you know, they always, that's been said for a long time. And so when you don't have much to go on, you know, just start attacking the police. However, in this case, you know, and sometimes police aren't perfect either. And so if they make a misstep or they do something like that, it feeds that fodder, it gives fuel to that fire. And I think that in certain populations, there's a mistrust of police or a desire to, you know, fight the police. And so I think that when the police do

something like that that seems maybe not perfect, they seize on that and they use it as a way to go, look, if they were this bad here or this sloppy here, then that misbehavior probably bleeds over into this case or something like that. So I think that there's a willingness and a desire to do that. And sometimes if the police slip up a little bit innocently or not, it's used in that endeavor. There are people out there. I still hope in my heart that they know something. However, little it might be to them, it's like a puzzle piece. But somebody knows where these girls are. And for me, I need to bring my daughter home. We've missed her for a long time, but we're going to bring her home. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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