Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous PHD student stalks ex-boyfriend, shoots him dead over breakup

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

A Chicago Ph.D. student is now facing murder charges after she shot and killed her ex-boyfriend. Nijinsky Dix had been dating Terry Hickman for three months. Police, responding to reports of gunfire, find Dix kneeling beside the bullet-riddled body of the 44-year-old.Joining Nancy Grace today: James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective, Swat officer Lawyer www.ShelnuttLawFirm.com Dr. Jenn Mann - Marriage and Family Therapist, Host 'Couples Therapy' and 'Family Therapy' on VH1, "The Dr. Jenn Show” on Sirius XM, Author: "The Relationship Fix: Dr. Jenn’s 6-Step Guide to Improving Communication, Connection and Intimacy", doctorjenn.com Dr. Priya Banerjee, M.D.  - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting, Assistant Medical Examiner Dan Corsentino - Former Police Chief, Former Sheriff, Served on US Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board, Private Investigator www.dancorsentino.com  Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does your so-called love life land you behind bars? And how does a gorgeous PhD candidate go from writing her dissertation to writing an appellate brief sitting on her bunk in a jail cell? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to those court records, she arrived to the apartment on Saturday. By 5.30, neighbors tell police they heard gunshots and then a woman screaming, please wake up, someone help me. So let me get this straight. She doesn't know how she got to D.C. She doesn't know how she got to 4th Street.

She doesn't know how she got to the apartment. Neighbors hear her at 530 screaming, wake up, wake up, and lo and behold, she somehow managed in her fugue state to end up in the apartment of her lover with a gun. Now, how did that happen? I guess she was blacked out the whole way to D.C.

Again, I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories. What a story to tell. And trying to make sense out of it is an all-star panel. James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case and SWAT, now lawyer at ShelnutLawFirm.com, practicing in Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, Georgia, you name it. Dr. Jen Mann, marriage and family therapist,

host of Couples Therapy on VH1, the Dr. Jen Show, Sirius XM, and author of the Relationship Fix, Dr. Jen's six-step guide to improving communication, connection, and intimacy. You can find her at drjen.com. And apparently this woman, the PhD candidate, did not have your book, Dr. Jen. Also with us, Dr. Priya Banerjee, board certified forensic pathologist, anchor forensic pathology dot com and assistant medical examiner. Dan Corsentino, former police chief, former sheriff with U.S. Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board. Now P.I. at Dan Corsentino.com, joining us from Pueblo, Colorado. But first to you, Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

Alexis, I don't get it. You've got this woman. She's in the prime of her life. She's just barely in her 30s. She's beautiful. I'm looking at one shot of her and she's so put together you know Alexis Torres Chuck this does not look like a woman that's going to go out like I would in black tights uh mismatched socks belonging to my son tennis shoes and a

t-shirt I mean she is matched to a tee, beautiful hair, perfect smile, just the right amount of makeup to look glamorous yet natural. And she looks very businesslike. I guess this is her PhD picture. I'm talking about Nijinsky Dix. She's the one that blacked out and somehow found her way to Washington, D.C. to her ex-lover's apartment. Alexis, what do we know? First of all, where did she live? She lived in Illinois. Illinois. You're right. Isn't that quite a long trip to not remember any of it? Yes. And she's getting her PhD at the University of Notre Dame. Get that time for me. Hold on.

Hold on. Hold on. I want to figure out how far is it. Let's just go from Notre Dame University to Washington, D.C. Because I want to figure out. And then I'll circle back with our MD, Dr. Priya Banerjee and Dr. Jen Mann. How long, for Pete's sake sake can you stay blacked out? And I don't believe she had a self-driving Tesla. How did she manage? How many hours?

It's 521 miles. 521 miles. Totally blacked out. Okay, Alexis Tereshchuk, was she coming from Notre Dame where she was getting her PhD? She was, yeah. Her PhD, like this is one of the best schools in the country. She was very respected. She was getting her PhD in gender studies. She was somebody that had mentored other students there. And then all of a sudden, and she shows up in Washington, D.C. Can't remember how she got there. Did she fly? Did she drive? Hold on. You're cutting out on me. I'm hearing a lot of moving around, and I blame you, Alexis Tereschuk. So we're talking about a 500-mile drive from where she's getting her Ph.D. at Notre Dame to the lover's apartment. Excuse me, ex-lover.

How long were they together, Alexis Tereschuk? They were only together for three months. Okay, stop right there. You're going to, first of all, drive 500 miles to see a man you've only been with for three months. Oh, N-O. No. Second, you're going to commit a crime, murder somebody, after just three months? I mean, Dr. Jen, man, three months is not even enough time to know how they like their coffee, much less decide to murder them. But it's just enough

time to create a fantasy of who that person is and what your future is going to be. And if you are deeply pathological, it's enough time to get attached and obsessed and become a stalker. Oh, wait, I have an idea. A strictly non-medical or non-psychological or psychiatric idea. You know how when you're in a new relationship and it's all new, bright and shiny and fun and wonderful? Was she still in that phase when she when he broke up with her? Well, how long does that last? I can't remember anymore. Well, they it can last anywhere from six to 18 months, typically, where your body is releasing the endorphins and the oxytocins and all that stuff that makes you bond and, you know, all

the serotonin that makes you feel heady and happy and, you know, like you're walking on air. So most likely, given that we're talking three months in, she was still there. But also, there's clearly a layer of pathology that there's something wrong with this woman that she's become so obsessed that she's now stalking. Now, Dr. Jen, you're the therapist. I'm expecting a little more from you than there's something wrong with this woman. Okay. Now, granted, I'm just a JD. I don't know any of your lingo, but you got to give me a little bit more than there's something wrong with her. I mean, I already know that. Yeah, look, there are certain personalities that are more likely to shock when it comes to personality disorder,

someone who is a borderline personality disorder. And that's a disorder where people get, they put you on a pedestal and then they throw you down. They love you and then they hate you. They get very attached and very focused on this person. And I'm not saying that she's necessarily this personality disorder. I haven't given her any kind of exam myself. But what I will tell you is that people who are like this, the key trigger is abandonment. And they can become very, very obsessive when someone abandons them once they have attached. You know, James Shelnut, 27 years Metro Major Case, now lawyer.

I was just talking about when your relationship is new and it's all bright and shiny and happy and wonderful and heady. I was a little flippant, James. And I'm coming to you on this because I know you have five children, I think with the same woman. Is that correct? With two from my prior marriage and then the rest from current. So after you've been through with your wife, three children, plus she's stepmomming two others back and forth with all the visitation and the this and the that. That's what love is. I don't want to sound flippant about real love because, you know, James, you know my mother, 89 years old, lives with us now. Now, real love is when my husband, David, who should be St. David,

he didn't agree for my mom to be part of the deal, but she is, right? He takes care of her like she's his own mother. Now that's love right there. Agree or disagree? Oh, I agree 100%. You know, I mean, love, not to step into the therapist's shoes, but just from a married perspective, you know, it's easy to feel emotional love when you're in this new relationship. But sometimes as relationship grows, you have to

make the decision to love your spouse and the decision to take control of your own happiness and the decision to continue to devote yourself to this relationship, even when things are not at their peak, even when they're not at their best. Okay, watch out, Dr. Gin Man. You got a little competition here. And Alexis Tereshia, you remember when you were in the hospital with that collapsed lung, who's sitting out in the waiting room just waiting? Your husband, remember? I do. And, well, I wasn't there, but what I heard is that the whole waiting room gasped

when my husband was sitting there by himself, so sad and all alone. And you walked in to comfort him. And then the doctors came out and everybody just watched how much you took care of him in that scary time for us. And that's what love is. And I was kind of being flippant about new and shiny and exciting in the first three months. But I mean, that obsessive feeling that she had apparently toward Terry Hickman. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We're talking about a Ph.D. student. She's beautiful, glamorous, totally put together, obviously brilliant. Why would she drive all the way from her Ph.D. studies in Notre Dame to Washington, D.C., nearly 600 miles, to confront a guy that dumped her after just three short months.

Take a listen to our friends at WUSA 9. 37-year-old Nijinsky Dix tells police she blacked out and doesn't remember what happened. And even though many of the victim's neighbors did not want to talk on camera, they helped detectives piece this story together. According to court records, after hearing gunshots, neighbors saw Dix panicked and pacing the fifth floor balcony, a gun in one hand, a cell phone in the other. When police got to the apartment, she was screaming but refused to open the door. When detectives got management to help them inside, the court documents say Terry Hickman was lying face down, shot five times in the back of the head and neck. Dix was kneeling over his body, one arm raised, another hiding the gun in her lap.

So Dan Corcentino, former police chief, former sheriff, U.S. Homeland Security, now private investigator at DanCorcentino.com. Dan, you walk in on a scene like that, you've got a dead guy who's obviously bled out on the floor, and you have a woman standing over him, one hand in the air and the other, did I hear, hiding a gun? That's an active shooter situation right there. That's an active shooter situation. There's no doubt about it. And the first responding officers are going to take every precaution they can.

But she now becomes the suspect immediately, and they're asking her to disclose or show her hands as they did and produce what they are expecting to be a weapon. They're anticipating that. Subsequently, she did. And they told her to put the gun on the ground, which she did. And they handcuffed her and brought her into custody. And multiple shots at close range. To Dr. Priya Banerjee, board certified forensic pathologist, anchorforensicpathology.com. Dr. Priya, multiple gunshot wounds, I believe at close range. He had to... That's up close and personal. Yeah. Give me your thoughts. Yeah, totally up close and

personal. I mean, this is not shooting in the dark. You know, she said she was threatened or whatever, blacked out. This is intentional. You are up close and personal, head and neck. Any one of those shots is going to incapacitate him immediately. And now you have, what, five? I mean, that's insane. There's no self-defense in this. I wonder if he had any idea what was about to happen. Let me circle back to that thought. To you, Alexis Toreshack. Isn't it true that witnesses state that they saw the two of them out in the parking lot just prior to the shooting? They did. And then they went inside the apartment and witnesses heard screaming. So they actually thought that something was happening to her.

They were worried that perhaps he was attacking her. Now, Dix says to police when they get there, quote, you don't do people you love like that. That's not love. I don't want that. He can't do people like that. You don't do people you love like that. I'm sorry.

After being shown a picture of the dead victim, Terry Hickman, that does not sound like self-defense to me. Is that where they're headed? Back to you, Dr. Priya Banerjee. We now know that they were out in the parking lot. And in my mind, the scenario is, Alexis, jump in if you have more facts on this, that she comes all the way from Notre Dame University, gets to Washington, D.C., 521 miles later, sees him in the parking lot, probably stalks him until he comes out. They're seen together, and she's talking. He had dumped her after three months of sex. Then they end up in his apartment. I guarantee you, she wants him back and they fight and she shoots him dead he had to know that he was about

to get shot I wonder if he laid there bleeding out thinking what in the hay just happened you know that's hard to say but I'm sure it's escalated right I mean there's a longer interaction before she shoots them and uh she's probably been to his apartment before i assume in the three months and you know he's trying to probably de-escalate the situation and then she brandishes a gun like probably totally caught him by surprise and then you know definitely fearing for your life and then he shot i mean again head neck, it really depends which shot came first, but those are so, you know, harmful. He could be feeling it bleeding out, or he could have been blacked out very quickly, just depending on where they came. The one thing I want to put in that's non-medical is

I grew up right outside of DC. You don't just end up in southwest dc without knowing where you're going from ohio especially so she had to figure out figure out how to get there from what we've been told she had never been in his apartment before but that doesn't mean she hadn't staked it out before absolutely you don't just end up in there which tells me even more about the relationship dr jen you've been sleeping with somebody for three months and you've never been invited to their place absolutely that that definitely tells us something that this guy was keeping her at a distance he did not trust her that this was he was not as all in as she was and people who are stalkers tend to blur the lines between fact and fiction of a relationship.

They tend to project a lot onto it. It's kind of like if you think about, remember those connect the dots kind of things that we did when we were kids, where, you know, it's like dot number one, dot number two, and you connect them all and then you have a picture. What happens with people like this is that they connect the dots, except they create a picture that doesn't exist. And I think this woman felt very entitled. She thought something was there that wasn't. And even her response when the police were there, you don't do someone wrong like this. It shows that she felt entitled.

She felt there was something there that just wasn't. I'm looking at his building. It's pretty swank. And I guarantee you there was a doorman. There was a doorman. Did he let her up? Did she follow her ex-lover up? We may never know the answers to that because when police get there, he's dead and she's standing over him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, it's easy to analyze a crime scene with forensic data. You look for fingerprints. You look for witnesses, the time of the shooting, the time of the 911 call. What can you learn about the trajectory path of the

bullet? Was there stippling? Was there gunshot residue telling you that she fired within three feet of the defendant? There's so many forensic matters to deal with, but there are also psychological and behavioral issues behind the shooting of this guy, the former lover, boyfriend, Terry Hickman, and the Ph.D. student turned stalker. Who is she? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. Nijinsky Dix is a 37-year-old PhD student at the University of Illinois, Chicago. She's been pursuing a doctorate in criminology, law, and justice while also working as an employee at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana, where she's the director of a talent search program called Trio. She's also dating a man named Terry Hickman.

They didn't date for long. According to Hickman's family, they dated for about three months. But the 44-year-old Terry broke up with her in May. Studying criminology, law, and justice. That changes things in my mind. Take a listen now to our friends at WUSA 9. We hear in the police report that Hickman dated Dix for three months. They broke up in May, and Hickman's relatives tell police,

according to these court records, that after they broke up, he found someone new and was about to move to Chicago. Hickman, I'm told, a very nice guy, a father of a local girl who attends college in D.C., he was 44 years old. Hmm. So this guy seemed to have it all going on. Found someone new, about to move to Chicago, has a daughter who attends college there in D.C. where he is. But what more do we know? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. According to Hickman's family, Dix had started stalking her former flame after the split

and that even though she was from out of state, she somehow found out where he lived in Washington, D.C. Shortly before 5.30 p.m., police responded to reports of gunfire at the apartment complex in the nation's capital. Police entered an apartment where they found a male individual who had been shot. They found Nijinsky Dix kneeling beside the bullet-ridden body of Terry Hickman, who was pronounced dead at the scene. Police said Dix was holding a gun in her left hand, which officers ordered her to put down. She was also on speakerphone with someone who identified themselves to authorities as her mother. Her mother told officers that Dix called her and said,

he pushed me and I shot him. Okay, so let me understand something. Back to you, Alexis Tereschuk, she was on the phone with her mom the whole time? She is, and that's what she told her. So when police get there, they actually, so where she say he pushed me, police get there, they notice that she has like an abrasion on her mouth, kind of on one of her lips. And they asked her what happened. She never mentioned he hit me or anything like that. She doesn't mention anything at all about her lip, which they can, they clearly see it. She just keeps saying, I have a pain in my back. I have a pain in my back. They said, well, what is it from? She can't tell them. Another thing is that she reached out. We just heard that

he had a daughter, a college-aged daughter. After that they had broken up just for three months, she was reaching out to the daughter. So she was obsessed with him and obsessed with trying, which his family thought was so weird. The daughter thought was so strange. You only did it for three months. Why are you calling me about my dad? It was very intrusive into the family life. But back to the crime scene, the police had no evidence of him hitting her other than what the mom said. Even though she had this bruise on her mouth,

she didn't say anything at all what happened about that. Interesting. Interesting. Guys, I'm curious. Dr. Jen Mann, marriage family therapist, host of Couples Therapy on VH1 and the Dr. Jen Show on Sirius XM, also author of The Relationship Fix. Dr. Jen, now we see her when the guy won't come back to her starting to call his college age daughter. Yeah, stalkers are obsessive types of personalities. And they tend to have these repetitive thought patterns, they become so preoccupied with their target, that sometimes

they're unable to sleep, or they can't even eat, they abandon their job. This is someone who was full fledged obsession. And what typically is the trigger for this kind of personality is rejection. You see it over and over again, that when this type of personality is rejected, it becomes the critical blow. And a lot of the time, these kind of stalkers, they see themselves as victims being let on or toyed with. And because they have such an enormous fear of abandonment, they lose their ability to reason. And it becomes impossible to let them down easy. And they become just obsessive. They get caught up in that cycle. And then they do these crazy kind of things. Take a listen to our Cut 5. This is our friend John Limley at Crime Online.

Metropolitan Police Detective Luke French described the scene in detail. Hickman was found face down, dead on the floor in his living room. The autopsy showed he was shot five times, at least once from close range. The shots were to his head, neck, and face. One shot was to the arm. French reported that bullet holes, ricochet marks, and shell casings were found in the living and bedroom of the apartment. At least one spent bullet was found as well. A black Ruger handgun was on the floor near Hickman's body. To the right of his body was a single, long fingernail.

Okay, to you, former police chief, former sheriff, now private investigator Dan Corsentino, that's telling me a lot, the forensics. It sounds like she chased him through the apartment, because you've got shell casings all over the apartment. Yeah, there's no doubt. It's somewhat remarkable how this entire story unfolded as your guests have described it. There's no doubt upon the entrance into this long hallway of the apartment that's described by the Metropolitan Police that she ended up toward the rear of the living room. And there must have been a discussion taking place.

But subsequently, she started firing five rounds into him, and there had to be, at least, we're counting two to three other rounds that were fired within the apartment itself. The very first round, if I could just share with you a second, left arm and an exit of the left back, which basically tells me that he was probably approaching her to take the gun away from her. Speculation, but that would be my first thought. continued firing and to the point of even standing very close to him and shooting one right into the back of his head, which is just very tragic, but all with malice and intent from the very beginning when she left to come to Washington, D.C. This was her plan, I believe, in the very beginning. Yeah. Why come all that way with a weapon? It reminds me a lot of Jody Arias, who literally crosses the desert to get to Travis Alexander to kill him

when he decides to be with another woman. I want to go to Dr. Priya Banerjee, board-certified forensic pathologist, and she can be found at anchorforensicpathology.com. Dr. Priya, I had a case once where a stalker comes into an apartment to kill a college co-ed and the co-ed sees what's happening and holds her hand up and she ends up getting a shot through the hand and it goes through part of her face. I'm wondering if in this case, Hickman didn't raise his arm up to protect himself. And the first shot goes through his arm and comes out his back. Could be that way. Oh, totally.

That's very, you know, possible if the wounds can line up, you know. And that's a normal response to like, you know, hold up. What are you doing? We are fighting and now you have a gun. You know, the other thing I want to say is it's not just one shot. I mean, it's to the face, the head and the neck, all very important sort of protected areas. That is hate. That is intentional. And, you know, does that mean he couldn't even have an open casket funeral if his face is so injured?

You have to think about that. I mean, that's how disfiguring these wounds can be. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It reminds me of a case where a mother shot her children down in Florida. She was a high-level linguist in the military, and she shot both her children in the mouth and said they had a sassy mouth. And she shot them in the mouth because they always talked back to her. Another case where a killer girlfriend shoots her aspiring lawyer boyfriend after he is planning a date with somebody else. She shoots him in the face and says, oh, I gave him the nose job he always wanted. Shooting somebody in the head or the face, in my mind, can often reveal some type of motive.

It's kind of hard to get into the mind of a killer girlfriend. Take a listen to our friend John Limley. often reveal some type of motive. It's kind of hard to get into the mind of a killer girlfriend. Take a listen to our friend John Limley. Police talked to multiple witnesses, one of whom said they heard shots while outside the building, heard a woman scream, oh my God, and then saw a woman walking back and forth on a balcony. Other witnesses told police they heard a woman say, help me, after multiple shots went off. After being released from the hospital, Dix was taken to a police station where she once again complained of memory loss. During an interview with detectives, Dix asked police for some sort of information

that may jog her memory about what happened. According to court filings, when shown a photograph of Hickman, Dix began crying and saying, get it away from me. To Alexis Tereshchuk, did I hear that correctly, that neighbors heard her scream out, help me, help me, after the series of shots, not before? Yes, and so that's what they thought. Perhaps he had shot her. Nobody had heard, but they didn't hear him screaming at all.

Okay. I want you to take a listen to our friend Delia Gonsalves with WSA 9. After police cuffed her, court records say they opened her purse to hear someone on speakerphone. It was her mother on the cell phone. According to the court records, she told police her daughter said, quote, he pushed me and I shot him. Dix was checked out at the hospital. Doctors say she displayed no signs of trauma. The court records indicate during her police interview, Dix was shown a picture of Hickman.

She responded by saying in part, please make sure he is gone. You don't do people you love like that. I'm sorry. Well, she's not the first and sadly she won't be the last stalker turned killer girlfriend. Take a listen to our friends at KPHO-TV, Phoenix. I felt like I met my soulmate and everything was just the way it was. And I thought we would just do what everybody else did and we would just like get married and everything would be fine. But that's not what happened. Jacqueline Addis claims she went on three dates with a Paradise Valley man she met through an online dating service for millionaire

matchmaking. Court records say Addis sent the victim 65,000 text messages including threats to kill him, wear his body parts and bathe in his blood. To me, it seemed like more. Addis does not deny the volume of text messages, but she would not get into specifics. She did, however, regret the nature of some of those messages. When you're finding love, not everything is perfect. This was a journey, and I want to apologize. Because no one intended to hurt or scare the victim. And she doesn't blame him for her incarceration. No.

I love him. Just hearing her voice skews me out totally. I love him. 65,000 texts threatening to kill him, wear where his body parts and bathe in his blood. Gee, I wonder why they broke up. OK, that's one case. Take a listen to this. This is Eric Sandoval from our friends at KWKMG.

Osceola County Sheriff's investigators say a woman called 911 around noon today from this home on Blackpool Way. She said someone she knew was trying to get inside, and he was armed. When deputies arrived, they say they confronted a man matching the description a block away. They identified him as 20-year-old Kai Douglas Williams. And inside the house, they say they found his estranged girlfriend, 18-year-old Larissa Barros, shot dead. She was my best friend. Drew Smith says he's known Barros since the second grade, and he lived down the street. It's heartbroken as hell.

Chest feels empty when you lose somebody that means so much to you. Smith said the couple had a little boy, and they also had problems. News 6 investigated, and according to the Osceola County Court records, Williams wasn't supposed to go near Burroughs. He had a restraining order after a case of domestic violence. Her friends tell us he set her car on fire here at school. He had also been arrested for stalking Burroughs. I mean, that's a surefire way to get your loved one back to set their car on fire. Dr. Jin Mann,

what is going on in these people's minds? Well, this is some serious, serious mental health issues. This is deeply pathological. And these are people who, in their obsession with this other person,

in their kind of, it gets blurry for them. The fantasy and the reality. That's certainly putting perfume on a pig. It's blurry. He set her car on fire. The other one, 65,000 text messages. Then in this case, the woman drives 500 plus miles to confront her lover of just three months in the parking lot. And then goes on to shoot him.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Take a listen to our friend Amy Powell at KABC7, our Cut 13. Their homeowner tells us the woman who got stuck inside his chimney this morning has been on his roof before. He met her online and during their brief relationship, he says it took a disturbing turn. First, her hands appear, then her arms. Finally, firefighters are able to pull a woman out of the chimney she became trapped in early this morning.

Neighbors were awakened by her cries around 5 a.m. I just hear this calling. Help! Eyewitness Robert Fisher shot this video as firefighters worked to free 30-year-old Genoveva Nunez-Figueroa from the chimney of the home on the 1900 block of Woodside Drive. They had to dismantle it brick by brick. She can be seen wedged inside, her hands over her head. Fisher's wife texted the homeowner who was out at a party. Hey, you wouldn't believe this. There's somebody in your chimney. Okay, Alexis Tereschuk, that's quite the calling card. Who wouldn't fall in love with a great girl

like that? Having to dismantle your chimney brick by brick because your ex-girlfriend is stuck in it. And did you catch the beginning? It's not the first time she's been up on his roof. These ladies cannot let go and the interesting thing is that nothing warns them away from it. I would never consider

climbing down a chimney to get into my ex-boyfriend's house because that's what nobody does. There could be a fire burning in it and they never saw the movie gremlins when they were little where the dad got stuck in the chimney and died and ruined christmas like you just you don't you know you're taking a lot of your investigative reporting from movies so unless gremlins was a documentary i don't really think it applies here although i did just recently quote the incredible so i don't really think it applies here, although I did just recently quote The

Incredible. So I don't have a leg to stand on. James Shelnut, we often see it again in movies, TV and books, works of fiction, where the perp would rather see the victim dead, then let them go on with their life or be with someone else. But it's not fiction, shall not. No, it's everyday real life. I mean, it happens all the time. And it's a level of selfishness. It's a level of possession. And these people are psychotic.

I mean, it happens frequently. But aren't there red flags, Dr. Gin Man? Sometimes there are. And I think also that sometimes there are red flags and people don't listen to their instincts. And, you know, Gavin DeBacker wrote a whole book about the gift of fear, that when you get that uh-oh feeling in your stomach, you've got to listen to it. And these people do tend to show signs of being highly obsessive very early on in the relationship. Yeah, I mean, Dan Corsentino, wouldn't you think 65,000 texts would be a red flag that you need to break up? Yeah, I think 65,000 texts is a little bit of a red flag.

It sounds like a sitcom, a bad sitcom and a freak show in this situation. I don't get it, but I do understand the obsessiveness. I understand the control. And in our business, all of our business, we understand how that becomes a connecting point to the potential of committing a crime with intent and malice because of isolation. The other person is placing you in the rejection, and now your options start to become limited depending upon your mindset. Yeah, it's all in your own mind. So this goes from works of fiction to harsh reality with killer girlfriends.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.