Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous Sotheby’s Realtor Bludgeoned Dead in Lux Townhome by Bratty Stepson

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

Irma Daniels is proud of her achievement in real estate winning the Silver Circle of Excellence Sales Award, sharing her success on social media.   Days later Daniels is dead. Police receive a 911 call about an assault around 6:46 in the evening. The location is an upscale gated townhouse in Cresskill, New Jersey,  shared by a husband and wife. When police arrive at the $800,000 townhome, they discover a woman’s bloody body.  Irma Daniels has been beaten with a baseball bat.       Joining Nancy Grace Today: Brad M. Micklin (Nutley, NJ)- Lead Attorney, Managing Member, The Micklin Law Group, LLC, focusing on family law and men’s and fathers’ rights in divorce, family and custody matters. Dr. Angela Arnold-Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women Robert Wise- Vice President of the New Jersey Division for John Cutter Investigations, Fmr. Sergent for Newark Police www.johncutterinvestigations.com  Dr. Tim Gallagher- Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Kelsey McKay, J.D.-  Founder of McKay Training & Consulting and Respond Against Violence non-profit, IG& FB: Respond Against Violence, Fmr. Prosecutor/ victims rights attorney, www.respondagainstviolence.org  Caren Lissner- Bergen County reporter, Patch dot com, https://patch.com/new-jersey/ridgewood, .facebook.com/RidgewoodPatch See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a gorgeous woman turned wife and mother who then surpasses all the other women and men in her field to rise up the ranks of the real estate battle to win one award after the next, after the next, end up bludgeoned dead in her own family's mansion. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to our friends at Crime Online and ABC7. Police receive a 911 call about an assault around 646 in the evening. The location is an upscale gated townhouse in Crestville, New Jersey, shared by a husband and wife. When police arrive at the $800,000 three-bedroom townhome, they discover a woman's bloody body. Officers determined she died of blunt force trauma. The 911 call came in around 6.45 yesterday evening.

When police arrived at the home on Stonegate Trail, they found the victim already deceased. Officials say the woman died from an apparent blunt force trauma and may have been beaten with a baseball bat. Wow. OK, just hearing the facts surrounding that, I'm imagining this beautiful home on Stone Gate Trail in a gated community, this nearly million dollar townhome. You know, straight out to Robert Weiss joining me, VP of the New Jersey Division for John Cutter Investigations, former Sergeant Newark Police. Robert, when you hear something like million dollar townhouse, gated community, stone gate trail, you don't really think of the beautiful woman bludgeoned dead in her own home.

No, you really don't. And you definitely try to see how could that have possibly happened with the security measures that are normally around these type of properties in that affluent area. Oh, let's talk about it. What do you mean security measures? You mean like a little gate that you have to drive through and there's a guy sitting back there and there's the gate arm that goes up and lets you in once you get permission or maybe it has a push dial a keypad that you have to know the super secret code to get in and then you get in and then you have to drive down long winding streets surrounded by trees and shrubs and everything looks perfect you know those neighborhoods where everything's dark, but they have the big homes lit up with lights up on the house. And it just is beautiful. Is that what you're talking about?

That's what I'm talking about. The communities up there are fully prepared for intruders and things like that. As far as our cameras that are mounted throughout the properties. The gate, you can't gain access to the property without being invited or on a list. Okay, how does that work, invited or on a list? Well, a lot of these buildings will have a guard station that is posted, and the guard would have to notify the resident that someone is requesting to enter the area if their name is not on the list. A lot of places, the tenant can put your name on the list so that you can have easy access when getting to the property. You know, I'm really curious, guys. I've got an all star panel and I'm going to get to every single person because each one is intimately familiar with this murder case. But Robert Weiss is with me.

Weiss, VP, Jersey Division, John Cutter Investigations, and significantly former Sergeant with Newark Police. You'll see why that's critical right now. about Robert Weiss is people that will put this big beautiful gate, like it may be stone or it may be brick or wrought iron, but on either side of it, you can just walk around it. So I'm always curious. I guess having a gate like that would stop someone having easy access in a vehicle to just go in and load up and leave in the vehicle with all the stuff, you know, like in Home Alone. If you've got that gate, you'd have to drive across the front yard or maybe go over a ditch. But if you were going in to bludgeon this mom, this is not just, you know, an ordinary mom like, you know, me and Jackie here. This is a woman that had won all sorts of Sotheby's International Realty Awards, just really at

the top of her game. And if you looked at her, she looks like a fashion model for sure. No question. Very sleek looking like, um, like she's just about to walk down a New York Fashion Week runway. This woman is beautiful. So I'm always curious why the gates stop at the edge of the driveway. Can't you just walk around it? Well, it depends on the property. A lot of them will still have the wrought iron fences that doesn't make it look like

it's Fort Knox or something like that. They do have designer fences now that are secure. And it's pretty much to deter people. I remember before the arm companies really were big, people would put a sign out in front that they have a security at the house, even though they didn't have it. It's like a deterrent for the criminals. So the fencing is a deterrent, and the cameras are always, always a deterrent. The bad guys want to go somewhere else.

Well, I guarantee you, this Sotheby's realtor in that gated community in Cresco, New Jersey. I guarantee you, Robert Wise, they had that townhome. It's a beautiful, solid brick townhome, tall, gorgeous, surrounded by trees. You know, they had it tricked out out the yin yang with security. Guys, how did this woman and and she's gorgeous, she's accomplished, she's everything, end up bludgeoned dead in her own home in a gated community where you have to get through security, surrounded by fences. You know, she's got the whole place tricked out, she and her husband, her family. So how did this happen? But, you know, what do we know about her? About her? Because when you

don't know where to go, you go back to your victim. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. John Sr. and Irma Daniels were married in 2011. John Daniels Sr. is the managing partner of the family law firm Daniels & Daniels, a practice nearly a century old. Irma Daniels were married in 2011. John Daniels Sr. is the managing partner of the family law firm Daniels & Daniels, a practice nearly a century old. Irma Daniels has become a success in real estate, celebrating a number of professional milestones this year, not the least of which was being named a Realtor Associate with prominent properties of Sotheby's Internation Realty in Englewood Cliffs. Irma Daniels also received the prestigious New Jersey Realtor Silver Circle of Excellence Sales Award, an achievement Irma Daniels had been working

toward for several years. Wow. And more. Irma Daniels is sharing her celebration of achievement in real estate on social media. After the Silver Circle of Excellence Sales Award, Irma Daniels posted on Facebook, I finally did it. After seven years in the real estate industry, I finally received this distinguished award. Enjoying the fruits of hard work in the USA, Irma Daniels also took time to reflect on where she had recently been on a trip back to her home country. On social media, coupled with the beautiful scenic footage of her homeland, she wrote, going back to my roots, my beautiful motherland, with breathtaking Caucasian mountains, ancient culture, heartbreaking history, and graceful and noble people. Proud of being Circassian.

Joining me right now is a special guest. It's Karen Lissner, an investigative reporter with the BergenCountyPatch.com. Karen, thanks for being with us. So, this woman is so impressive to me. She immigrates from Russia, and I think that that is where I'm picking up this sleek, it's a European look, super pretty. She immigrates from Russia. She meets the husband.

They get married in 2011 and this guy I guess is quite the catch right because his family law firm is over a hundred years old Wow and then they have the son they've got the home they've got it all right which makes her brutal way to die. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me is Dr. Tim Gallagher, guys. And Karen, listen, I want you to hear what he's going to say before you give me your answer. Dr. Tim Gallagher is the medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. Lecturer, University of Florida Medical School of Forensic Medicine.

And founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, there's a limited ways, a limited number of ways to die. Bludgeoning, a bludgeoning death is a particularly violent, gruesome death and it totally destroys, typically, the victim's face and head. Now, don't worry, we're bringing on a renowned psychiatrist to follow up on what that means emotionally and mentally. But Dr. Gallagher, how often do you see a bludgeoning death as opposed to a shooting death, a stabbing, somebody gets run over. How often do you see a bludgeoning death on a lady? Well, we don't really get to see that too often, Nancy. It's a

very rare opportunity, you know, that one will come to the medical examiner's office. And for a lot of reasons, you know, a bludgeoning death, the assailant has to get very close to the victim. You know, this is not someone you can shoot from across the parking lot, you know, in an anonymous way, you know, so the assailant has to know the victim, the victim has to allow the assailant to get near them. And the weapon used is generally something that's very heavy and that does a lot of damage, you know, in the first couple of strikes. You know, their intent is to render the victim incapacitated or even kill them within the first two or three blows.

So we do find a lot of skull fracture. We do find a lot of brain damage, brain swelling, concussions, and death, you know, because of the blunt force trauma. But not very common. And for the reasons that we mentioned, it's generally not an anonymous type of an assault. So I'm taking it, Dr. Tim Gallagher, that you differentiate between a bludgeoning death and a beating death. Typically, a beating death would be an assault with somebody's fist as in a fist fight. But a bludgeoning would require an instrument of some type, a metal pipe, a rock or a very hard object that's heavy.

So that would be more of a bludgeoning as opposed to a beating. Dr. Angela Arnold joining me. We're now psychiatrists out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, thanks for being with us. Thank you, Nancy. I'm not sure I agree with one thing Gallagher said, that you have to let the person get close to you, because I've seen bludgeonings where the victim is cracked in the head from behind. But I guess generally speaking, he's right.

You know, we lawyers, Brad Micklin, we learn not to argue with the medical examiner unless we really have to. Because, you know, unless you've got a JD and an MD, they're gonna win. And that's really embarrassing in front of a jury. Would you agree with that, Brad Micklin? I would agree wholeheartedly Nancy. First thing I've learned in law school was a good lawyer knows when not to argue. Yeah, just let the medical examiner say

whatever they want to. And then when they leave the courtroom and get in their car and drive away, then you can argue against what they said in their car and drive away, then you can argue against what they said in your closing statement. But forget it all across. I mean, you basically have to have the medical examiner lying on the courthouse steps naked with a big fat doobie hanging out of their mouth and a bottle of booze in their hand

for a jury not to love a doctor. They love doctors. And it's really hard to cross-examine a medical doctor, even if you know what you're talking about. So I take all that back, Dr. Gallagher. You're absolutely right in every way. Well, you've described my Friday nights. Yes, go ahead. Dr. Angie, I want to talk about this bludgeoning aspect because I'm looking at her right now and she has this very delicate nose and jawline. Her lips are perfect and it all looks natural, I might add.

She looks like the height of sophistication. And I'm just thinking about the mental leap you have to take to, let's just say, a bat to get a Louisville slugger and hit this lady in the face and crack her skull wide open. Who does that? What frame of mind would it take? It's like Gallagher said, excuse me, Dr. Gallagher, it's not like you're taking a shot across a bar or you're just in a haze and you're angry and you run somebody over. This is, I mean, her face looks like delicate porcelain. So, Nancy, what you're describing is a very personal crime. And I'm sure whoever did this did get very close to her.

And there's either a modicum of hatred. Whoever killed her hated her, so it was personal. Or they could have had some sort of desire for her, for example, a sexual desire that they couldn't make happen because she's a married woman. So rage. Yes. You know, another time I see that, and again, I'm just a JD. You're the psychiatrist and MD. It's with multiple stabbing.

Think about Jodi Arias, just enraged. She had been having a marathon sex session with her boyfriend, Travis Alexander. And at the end of the day, he still wouldn't back out of his date, taking another lady to Cancun, I believe it was. And she was absolutely enraged, stabbed him. It's confusing between 28, 29 and 30 times because the stab wounds began to overlap and then caps them in the head, shoots them in the head and leaves them to decompose in the shower. That's rage. And, you know, the frenzy of stabbing.

And I'm getting that same feeling about bludgeoning. Joining me right now, investigative reporter out of Berkin County with Patch.com, Karen Lissner. What more do we know about Irma Daniels? We know that she was a successful woman. She was an immigrant. And you can see by, she posted on social media just hours before she was killed

about how proud she was, how she had taken a recent trip back to her homeland. And the way she writes in her post, she was a very intelligent woman. There's, it conveyed a lot of passion. She studied finance and economics at Financial University under the government of the Russian Federation. Right. She had an MBA in marketing strategies from the Moscow Business School. business school. She, of course, married the husband, John Daniels Sr., managing partner

in the Gutenberg, New Jersey-based law firm Daniels & Daniels. I know that. And she worked her way from being an immigrant to this top spot in Sotheby's. And when I say Sotheby's. It's all about luxury real estate, luxury homes all around the world with a global reach. What more do we know about the death itself? To Brad M. Micklin joining us, lead attorney managing member with the Micklin Law Group. Brad, thank you for being with us. Of course, when you come upon a scene like this, I'm sure the first thing cops are going to look at is, has there been a B&E, a breaking and entering? Is anything missing? Was she raped? Is she clothed? What more do you believe the cops are going to look for the moment they come into that luxury townhome? I think there's a lot that you have to look for when you get into this because, yeah, as you mentioned in the reports I've mentioned, this was a largely affluent area. Bergen County is largely considered a more affluent county. So you're going to look to see was the house in disarray? Were the grounds in disarray? Is there anything that was relocated or left at the scene? You want to see if there's security, if it was tampered,

or if there's anybody that may have even assisted, whether part of the community or outside of the community. So there's been so little release about this case that there's just so many different directions that this could go into. Yeah, and I guess you'd want to look for surveillance cameras, not just in the home, but at the entry at that gatehouse. Guys, not only did she seem perfect, her whole family seemed perfect. Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack. As the son of a prominent New Jersey attorney,

John Daniels Jr. graduation from Bergen Catholic High School in 2011 marked the beginning of an academic journey. He was a Seton Hall undergrad in diplomacy and international relations. He worked as a legal assistant at the family law firm Daniels & Daniels for two years from 2018 to 2020. And according to his LinkedIn profile, John Daniels Jr. received an MBA from the Boston College Carroll School of Management in May of 2022. So not only is she achieving, her husband achieving, but her step stepson that she's been raising since he was a little boy is also achieving. Let's go back to the scene. What can we tell? How was there an entry gained and who would have the mental capacity to perform a murder like this. Joining me right now is specialist Kelsey McKay,

former prosecutor, victim's rights lawyer, and founder of McKay Training and Consulting and Respond Against Violence. Kelsey, thank you for being with us. You know, when I was talking to Dr. Gallagher about the difference between beating and bludgeoning, Typically, and for instance, domestic violence cases, we will see beatings with the fists. But this case is nothing like this. There was obviously a blunt object used. Absolutely. And that is, as Dr. Gallagher described, much less common than things like a shooting with a firearm and some type of other injury. And so one of the things you mentioned, Nancy, to circle back to is the role that who and how do we identify not only the suspect, but the motive behind the crime. And so is it robbery?

One important thing I would always begin an investigation like this is to determine the identity. And what we do know is a woman is most likely to be killed by someone she knows. And so it's important that although you can look for signs that there might be missing items, no security gate is ever going to keep out the most dangerous people in a woman's life, which is family members. You're so right about that. Lovers, exes, family members, it goes on. And to Dr. Tim Gallagher, joining us out of Florida, when you look at a body, for instance, this woman, Irma, Irma Daniels, how can If the person is beaten with a blunt object that is

elongated such as a metal pipe, a baseball bat, or something of that nature, that leaves a very distinct impression on the body. Something that we call tram tracking, it's basically two lines, you know, and underneath those lines on the skin would be where the damage is, the broken bones, the bleeding, the ruptured organs. So that would indicate a elongated object. When someone is beaten with fists, typically, you know, we see the injuries are more rounded. Sometimes we see the knuckle impressions. And on some cases, we actually see an impression of a ring or jewelry that the assailant was wearing on their hands when they were striking the victim. So it's very important that we pay careful attention to each and every injury because each injury can give us a clue as to what was used and how we can help the investigation develop a object, you know, that was used in the crime. Take a listen to our forensic crime online.

An urgent manhunt is launched for the suspect who fled the scene. Police say the victim, Irma Daniels, was bludgeoned with a baseball bat. Neighbors tell police in the past few days a man had been seen pacing in front of the home. So here we see that the murder weapon has been identified as a baseball bat. I had to think back on a case where a baseball bat was used in a murder. Listen to this from our friends at 48 Hours. He's bleeding all over and I may have killed him. Was he drinking?

Yes, he had been drinking during the course of the day. My partner's dispatching the ambulance in the office while I get the information. Okay. All right. Are you right with him now? I am. How old is he? How old is he? 39.

All right. Is he conscious at all? No. Is he breathing? I can't tell. All right. Tell me what happened. Did you hit him in the head or? I hit him in the head. With what?

With a baseball bat. With a baseball bat? Yes, ma'am. You are hearing sound of a 911 call where a dad and his daughter have beaten the victim dead that victim the daughter's husband Jason Corbett now isn't it true dr. Gallagher that when you look at the victim's body you can actually see as you were talking about you can see rings and watches that leave an impression when someone is hit you can see the elongated mark of the weapon. And I'm thinking

back to an arson case I tried. And you may think, wow, what does an arson case have to do with this? The victim didn't die of burning of the fire. She was beaten in the head. And there was a clear mark that I later showed to the jury of an elongated bruise and indentation on her scalp. So that's what started her demise, not smoke inhalation. So it's very distinct. Would you agree, Dr. Gallagher? It is true. Typically, you will find in the assault with a baseball bat that you will find two lines that outline where the impact was. And a baseball bat has a very distinct pattern because it's thinner at the bottom and wider at the top.

So those two lines on the body where the bat made the impact would be diverging as it goes upward. So often if the bat is a wooden bat, it can also leave the impression of the wood. It could leave the impression of the label that is stamped on the bat, and it'll leave that impression on the skin. And we have different types of light sources that we can use that would highlight those areas and call that object into question or call that or certify that that object was the one that was used, you know, in the commission of the crime. The family is devastated with the mom bludgeoned dead in the home, a home they thought would never be penetrated. There are no leads. So cops began looking, just as Kelsey McKay pointed out, at those closest to her. Listen to our friends at Crime Online. John Daniels Jr. lists his occupation as an investment banker on

his LinkedIn profile, but the last known job he had was at his father's law firm as a legal assistant. That ended in 2020. Before that, Junior worked for a year as a marketing manager with Benzel Bush Motor Car. The Daily Mail reports Daniels Jr. has apparently been unemployed for the last three years and hasn't worked since leaving his father's law firm in 2020. The Daily Mail reports that Daniels Jr.'s social media accounts show a lot of shirtless selfies and lavish vacations, but that the 30-year-old is single and unemployed. Back to Dr. Angela Arnold. Dr. Angie, I'm looking right at his profile. He lists himself as an investment banker. I mean, investment bankers do big deals all over the world, not post shirtless selfies and lavish vacations when they're unemployed and living at home at age 30?

Yeah, it sounds like he wishes he was an investment banker. That's his dream wish, isn't it? So he's putting that out there, Nancy, because to me, all of this says that he is very insecure about himself. His father has provided a provenance of excellent education for him. And this guy has not been able to live up to what his father paved the way for him. So now he's a loser at 30 years old living at home in his parents' basement. Boy, you're not judgy at all, are you, Dr. Angie? You are the reason, Dr. Angie, that my son the other day said, Mom, I promise you I will not be 31 and living in the basement.

Good. Was that Kelsey McKay jumping in? Yeah, you know, what she brings up is such a great point because one of the dynamics or circumstances that appears to have preceded this homicide, it sounds like within days, is her posting of her recent success. And so in sharp contrast to the stepson, she not only was experiencing recent success, but also seems to be substantial success, which is, as we can see with his unemployment and lack of financial earning power, it appears, despite his appearance that he gives off to the world. I think that might be a significant circumstance to consider. Of course, Brad Micklin will back me up on this. I believe he will, that being a deadbeat son living at home. And you notice the last job he had, Brad Micklin, was as a legal assistant in his father's law firm back in 2020, three years ago.

Nepotism, nepotism. So the dad throws him a bone and gives him a job at the law firm as an assistant. But it's been over three years since he did that. Yeah, I mean, I hate to say this, but I see it a lot with my practice over the last 23 years.

I thought you were going to say with my son. Okay, go ahead. No, no, no. 23 years ago, when people had financial troubles, they dealt with it. They moved in with a friend or they got a small apartment. Now, more and more often, I see people that are moving home with their parents. They're letting their parents pay for their legal fees and their education or their child support with little regard for the fact that it's usually their retirement that is being squandered for these purposes.

And it sounds just like that's exactly what he was doing. Living off his father, got an education from his father, worked for his father, and then posted selfies without a shirt on to promote himself in an adverse negative way. Of course, a mooch does not a murderer make. What else do we know beside the son, other than he's unemployed, living at home, and lying about his image online take a listen to dave mack john daniels jr had been acting strangely according to a neighbor the new york post quoted a neighbor that did not want to be identified that said of john daniels jr quote he was doing odd sprinting from one driveway to the next driveway

not sprinting for exercise he wouldn't make make eye contact. One day I saw him wandering around in front of someone else's house pacing. It was like circling with an angry and upset look on his face. And I thought somebody's going to call the police on this guy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, you know what? I've got to go to Robert Weiss on this. VP, New Jersey Division for John Cutter Investigations, former sergeant for Newark Police. That's where this goes down.

Robert, again, thank you for being with us. You know, if it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck. It looks like a duck. It's a duck. Now I said it in a different way. And I would tell juries, listen, look at all the possibilities, and I guarantee you, the nut did it. So why is this guy sprinting back and forth from mailbox to mailbox, refusing to make eye contact just before the mom is killed? Well, it appears to me that there's something going on, whether he's intoxicated of some sort, but he's clearly off the reservoir with the way that he's intoxicated of some sort, but he's clearly off the reservoir with the way that he's acting. He's creating a kind of crazy environment with the neighbors,

and it doesn't seem like that he cares that he's being watched by his actions. And when I first took a look at this and listened to what the doctors were saying, with these type of crimes, there's definitely a lot of emotion involved behind it. There's some really deep emotion involved behind it to be able to carry out an act as atrocious as that.

And in many cases, when they have a situation like that with the crime, there's a lot of blood splatter and things like that that would get on the perpetrator. And these are things that affect them later on.

But he's clearly seemed to be showing some sign, some type of either drug abuse or mental illness or such. But of course, we don't know what he's wearing because as soon as his mom is found, he goes on the run. That's right. Right.

This guy, 30-year-old John Daniels Jr., as soon as Irma is found dead in the home, bludgeoned dead with a baseball bat and they came out with that pretty quickly there was a baseball bat which tells me that the weapon was found at the scene how would they know that immediately after finding her body and he's the only one missing to Brad M Micklin high-profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction in New Jersey. Brad, in many jurisdictions, judges no longer instruct jurors on flight as evidence of guilt. However, the prosecutor can still argue it, and I would argue it in this case till I was blue in the face. Your mother is dead in the floor and you go on the run?

I mean, come on, Brad. If you see a state patrol officer pull up behind you on the interstate, you might tap your brakes to slow down. But do you take off at 110 mph? No, because you don't have anything to hide. So why is he on the run? I agree, Nancy. I mean, I personally believe it's a sign of guilt and that an innocent person, absent fear, would not run, would not hide. But as you indicated, many jurisdictions feel that it's just too prejudicial to allow people to draw that conclusion.

So we're told not to. But I think it's human nature to believe that it is the case. And I don't think I would do it absent tremendous fear or guilt. Absolutely, guys. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. After a manhunt, John Daniels Jr. is taken into custody. Sources tell CBS2 that a New Jersey man

has been arrested in the beating death of a family member. Police say the body of 48-year-old Irma Daniels was found last night at a home on Stonegate Trail in Cresco. Authorities say John Daniels Jr. is now being charged with the murder. He's accused of hitting the victim in the head with a baseball bat and running from the home. So far, no word on a motive. In his first court appearance, Daniels

reportedly broke down and stuttered at times while answering the judge. Reporters in the courtroom say Daniels only spoke yes, your honor, or no, your honor, in answer to the judge's questions. Daniels faces a list of charges, including first-degree murder, unlawful possession of a weapon, and lying to investigators. If, in fact, this 30-year-old son is guilty of bludgeoning his stepmom Irma dead. He's not by far the first adult child to wreak havoc and murder their parents. Take a listen to our friends at ABC6. It was the couple's son who grew concerned after he hadn't spoken to his parents in a week. He went to their home, saw a body inside, confronted his sister, and then left

and called 911. The couple's son told authorities he believed that he was texting with his parents all week. Now authorities believe his sister was using the parents' phone to make the son think that they were still alive. 43-year-old Verity Beck charged with murdering her 72-year-old mother and 73-year-old father. This is video of Abington police transporting the suspect to jail. Her father, Reed, and mother, Miriam, a former school nurse, were both shot in the head inside their quaint home in the 1100 block of Beverly Road. Verity stayed in the home with their bodies for nearly a week. Now, this woman, no way can she claim some type of mental defect because she had the cunning to fake out her brother for days and days,

pretending that her parents were texting with him when it was her. Reminiscent of the Gabby Petito case where the boyfriend, the fiance, Brian Laundrie, was texting Gabby's family as if he were Gabby. Knowing full well he had murdered Gabby and left her body out in dispersed camping all the way across the country. Well, that's not the only one. One case that comes to mind that reminds me of this case in particular is the case of Thomas Gilbert Jr., born with a silver spoon in his mouth and sitting on a velvet cushion. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. 30-year-old Thomas Gilbert Jr. is currently being held without bail after police say he shot Thomas Gilbert Sr. in the head Sunday afternoon inside this Manhattan apartment.

I'm still in shock. Anna Rothschild says she recently dated Gilbert Jr. How did he describe his relationship with his father? His father was never happy with anything he did. Gilbert Jr. was in debt and unemployed. According to detectives, his investor father recently discussed no longer paying his son's rent and planned to cut his weekly allowance by $100, reducing it to $300. Police have also charged him with 21 counts of criminal possession of forgery devices

because inside Gilbert Jr.'s Manhattan apartment, they say they found 21 blank credit cards and a skimming device used to capture credit card information. Boy, do I need to shrink right now. And with me, renowned psychiatrist, Dr. Angela Arnold. The guy is 30 years old, just like this guy, John Daniels Jr. and his shirtless selfies that he's posting online, claiming to be an investment banker. This guy is 30 years old and tracking down a woman he dated. The first thing she said is he told me his father was never happy with him. He could never do anything right.

Nothing was ever good enough. Seriously, at age 30, you're still whining. Your dad is disappointed in you. While I might add that you're using a skimmer to capture credit card information of unsuspecting people and use their lines of credit and credit cards for yourself. I guess he was estranged from his father. Well, you know, Nancy, to me, that sounds like that person is completely antisocial. That took a while for you to actually spit it out. Did you have to think a long time?

I mean, if you shoot your dad or in this case, bludgeon your stepmom, dad, I guess I even I who know nothing about psychiatry could say antisocial. I'm looking for something a little bit deeper than that, Dr. Angie. I mean, you did go to undergrad medical school and train in psychiatry, did you not? Help me out here. You ever heard of Oedipus? Yes. There's all of that going on, but at the very beginning of it. No, no. You are the psychiatrist, all right. You are the expert. Don't just say all that's going on. What are you saying, woman? What can't first? Let's just talk about Oedipus for a moment.

Even I know that. And I just fell off the turnip truck for Pete's sake. When a son hates the mother, it's called an Oedipus complex. Yeah, but he doesn't just hate the mother. He also has sexual desires for the mother. And he cannot make, he can't act those out. And so he kills the mother. Sometimes these people also kill the father because the father is blocking them from having their sexual desires met with the mother. Dr. Angie, I don't know if I can't determine whether Irma was clothed or not, but I wonder, forget about sex with your mother.

Can we talk about money? Did you hear Thomas Gilbert, his father, who's in his 70s, was thinking about reducing his weekly allowance by $100 to $300 a week. He was getting $1,200 a month, plus his home was paid for. I think he lived with the parents. I'm not sure about that. But yet the father, a senior, dared to suggest, I'm only giving you $1,200 a month. He shot him in the head? Oh, and I might add, before he shot his father in the head, he sent his mother out to go get him a sandwich.

Seriously? I mean, did the mother ever say, son, you can do that yourself? Or, hey, what are those socks doing on the floor? Why are they there? Is that where you're storing your socks now? On the floor of the den? What went wrong, Dr. Angie? Nancy, these people have come to believe this is a real attack on who they are by the parent

if the parent so much as wants to remove some of their money from them, okay? Because these kids have never had to work for anything. They've never had to do anything for themselves. So internally, it says to this person, I'm not as worthy anymore of your love. If you're going to take some of my funds away from me, then I'm no longer worthy of this. Why are you doing this to me? And it enrages them. Okay. And it can be as simple as a hundred dollars a week, but no one has ever taught them that they have to work for anything. So the only people that they have to look to are their

parents. It would be like if they were at a job and their boss said, you know what, we're going to cut your pay a little bit because we don't think you're doing as good of a job. That's what they hear. OK, Nancy, they don't hear what we're all seeing, that they're being well taken care of and housed and closed. Doesn't he notice that his stepmom is getting up and going to work every morning? His dad is duking it out as managing partner of a law firm. And that's not easy. You're a managing member of a law firm, Brad Micklin. When you're the manager of a law firm, you have to not only oversee everybody's cases, but you have to deal with all their petty disagreements, their jealousies, their raises,

their promotions, their benefits, the blah and the blah. It's maddening. Did he not notice his parents were working while he's sitting at home taking shirtless selfies and posting them? I think that's what the problem is. I think that many parents, not all, but many parents, they coddle their children. They overfund their children. They overmedicate their children if they have the least bit of anxiety. I mean, people need to learn to suffer.

Wait, you know, it sounds to me, Brad Micklin, that you are actually blaming the dead stepmom that she didn't discipline the stepson enough. No. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. He was graduating high school when she came into the picture. Brad, I think he was 12 when the stepmom, Irma, comes into the scene and starts helping raising him. But you know what? Aside from that, I notice a trend here where adult children get angry when they're about to lose money from their senior parents. Bringing to mind Joel Guy Jr.

Take a listen to our cut 10. Joel and Lisa Guy were found deceased in their residence. The parents are believed to have been murdered between late Friday night, the 25th, and midday on Saturday, the 26th. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well as dismemberment. Joel Jr. was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived in Knoxville on Wednesday the 22nd and departed on Sunday the 27th. And more from WATE.

Major McLean describes the scene as horrific, saying remains were disposed of in multiple rooms. Seeing scenes like this, they are very, very rare. It's in the one percentile of homicides in the United States. Investigators have spoken to Guy Jr.'s sisters, none saying he was acting strangely before the murder. The motive is still unclear. Parents had indicated that they were in the process of encouraging him to

fend for himself, and they were going to be cutting off some of his financial support. To Kelsey McKay, former prosecutor, now victim's rights lawyer, founder of McKay Training and Consulting, that's what it's all about here. Just like in the case where I just played it, that guy, Joel Guy Jr., actually hated his parents so much for cutting him off financially, he dismembered them. Same thing here. And that stat I was interested in, less than 1% of all homicides are patricide or killing your parent, be it mother or father. What do you make of this, Kelsey? A few things. One, circling to what Dr. Arnold said, I think why we struggle so much with these cases when it is entitlement and greed and privilege that is really the driving motive is those are

not medical diagnosis. Those are character traits. And so in my experience as a prosecutor, there was a constant need to diagnose away the criminal behavior. And so in this case, seeing the pictures of him and his false appearance of his wealth and his money, you know, I wonder if what's not just behind that is downright greed and entitlement. When it comes to the percentage of cases, the dynamic is important, and it's also important to recognize we have a female victim in this case. Murders against women, femicides, are very different than all other homicides. And sons and step-sons, while it's a small proportion, more women are killed by their son or step-son than by a stranger. So it may not be super common when you look at all overall homicides. But when you separate out femicides, it's actually a significant proportion of those cases involve that mother or step-mother relationship.

Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Go ahead, Dr. Angie. Nancy, this is, like she just said, this only involves 2% of all homicides. It's the rarest type of murder. I do want everyone to know, though, that these types of murders, which are actually called parasites,

are growing, okay? And this guy fits the bill, Nancy. This guy fits the bill. It's typically committed by an adult, middle-class, white male with no history of any prior acts between the ages of 18 and 30. Uh-oh, this guy tells the story of exactly of this type of murder. He has hung himself, as far as I'm concerned. We wait as this case heads to trial and justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.