Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous world-class poker star burnt body found, scene staged. WHY?

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

The body of Suzie Zhao, a young female professional poker player is found burned in a Detroit park. The White Lake Township Police Department is treating her death as a homicide and are asking for help from the public.TIPLINE: White Lake Township Police Detective Lt Christopher Hild [phone]Joining Nancy Grace today: Yuval Bronshtein - Friend of the victim since 2008, poker player Neama Rahmani - Los Angeles Ca, Former Federal Prosecutor, President of West Coast Trial Lawyers Dr. Daniel Bober - Forensic Psychiatrist; follow on Instagram at drdanielbober Investigator James Shelnutt - 27-year Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer Dr. Elayne Pope - Forensic Anthropologist, Autopsy Supervisor at the Office of Chief Medical Examiner, Norfolk, Virginia Levi Page - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever been to Vegas? Because I have. And it's awesome and beautiful and crazy. And when you see it on TV, you know, you even hear Elvis singing Viva Las Vegas, it's just so fantastical, like a dreamland. But for one high stakes poker player, a well-known female star on the poker circuit, That dream turns to a nightmare. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. First of all, take a listen to our friends at WDIV. A couple were driving down Mesa Day Road here as it approaches Crossroad in White Lake Township when they made the

awful discovery yesterday morning. On the right here in this parking area they saw the lifeless body burnt beyond recognition. Cars parked there as a trailhead for people to go hiking into the Pontiac Lake wreck area. The area was quickly cordoned off as investigators from White Lake and Oakland County Sheriff's Department set about their investigation. Who is she? How did she get here? How did she die? This is a sparsely traveled stretch of road near the west end of Oakland County Airport. Police tell us they have little to go on. They're asking for your help. They have checked local missing persons reports, but with no matches.

They're asking a few residents in the area for their help. They have checked local missing persons reports, but with no matches. They're asking a few residents in the area for their help. Ring doorbells, outside surveillance systems, anything that potentially would have caught any possible lead that we could use. Again, this victim killed, brought here and set ablaze. So to be a female between 20 and 30 years of age, about 5'3", 120 to 135 pounds. How did a female poker star end up burned to a charred remain, her body in a remote area. This is a woman that had been on TV that was really the darling of the gambling world. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again, Yuval Bronstein, friend of Suzy, known as Suzy Q in the circuit, Nima Romani, LA, California, former federal prosecutor. He's seen it all, president of West Coast trial lawyers and renowned civil attorney. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober joining us,

and boy, do I need to shrink. You can find him on Insta at Dr. Daniel Bober. James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, now lawyer at shellnutlawfirm.com. Dr. Elaine Pope, forensic anthropologist, autopsy supervisor, office of chief medical examiner, Norfolk, Virginia. And you can find Dr. Pope at burnedbone.com. Let me just warn you, her nickname is the Dame of Flame. But first, to crimeonline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. Let me just warn you, her nickname is the Dame of Flame. But first, to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page.

Levi, before you get started, take a listen to our friend Charlie Langton at Fox 2. The remains of a 33-year-old woman from Waterford Township so badly burned have now been identified. The individual was Susie's out. Susie was found by a resident at 8.05 in the morning on July 13th in White Lake Township near Mesa Day Road and Cross Road. It's

a semi remote. State. Park area. There's a little parking lot there, but why she was so badly that it was hard to believe that Susie was so badly burned and when she disappeared is still a mystery. You have to determine whether or not. This is a cover up or this may be some sort of

retaliatory incident because of her profession. Seems Susie was a professional poker player and had been living out of state in California for a while. She didn't really share a lot of that information with us. She was a very private person. Yes. The entire time we've known her. Yep. She was always a little bit of a mystery. Her friends speaking today, remembering Susie, but also questioning

what happened. If anybody knows anything, they need to come forward. This is not right. This is not something that happened. I don't know. They need to come forward. Will they, though? In a high-stakes poker world, a lot of secrets are being kept. Straight out to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. The first thing I want to ask you is about where she was found. Then I'm going to back it up to Dr. Elaine Pope, forensic anthropologist, to determine when she was found versus when she was killed. Levi Page, tell me about the area. I know this is a semi-remote area of a state park, but what more do we know?

So, Nancy, Pontiac Lake Recreation Area, it's remote, it's wooded, it has a lot of walking and hiking trails. It's like a place, you know, where I would take my dog if I live near there to go walking. And that is where her body was found. It was found right after 8 a.m. by two men that were on their way to work. Now, let me understand something. You said it's a place that you might take your dog. That means easily accessible, like trails where people would go or are we talking so remote that it's a place you'd have to hike to? Well it had a parking area so you could easily get to it and the trails were easily accessible they were well manicured the trails were very visible it was not trails that you had

to hunt through a lot of weeds and woods to find. I'm curious about Pontiac Lake. Where is that exactly? Nancy, it is about 30 miles outside of Detroit. 30 miles outside of Detroit. You know, joining me right now is a special guest, Yuval Bronstein, friend of Susie Zhao, also known as Susie Q in the gambling world. Yuval, how did you know Susie? I met Susie over 10 years ago. We were both out in Vegas for the World Series of Poker, and we met playing a cash game, and we ended up... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow it down, friend. Slow it down.

Okay. You met playing a what? A cash game during the World Series of Poker in Las Vegas. Okay, what's that like? I've always wondered because I've seen it on TV. And I try to read everyone's faces just out of, you know, professional curiosity. Tell me about this is a cash game. When you say cash game, how much are you talking about?

For this particular game, I think the buy-in was minimum maybe $2,000. I would usually buy in for about $10,000 this game. It was a pretty big game, I guess. How much could you win in it? Well, I mean, theoretically, I guess like maybe $10,000 or $20,000 in a day. Wow. If you play all day and did really well. That's not a bad living. Now, let me ask you this about Susie. How did she get the nickname Susie Q? I don't know the origin of that name. I guess it just fitted her. Yep. And you say you met her at a cash game in Vegas. What was she like? What drew you to her?

She was just smiling the whole time, and she was really friendly, and she was really smart. She was one of the big winners in the game, and she was just really cool. So she and I just kind of became friends instantly and we ended up hanging out a lot you know did you date her no we were just friends was she dating anyone um well since I met her she dated several people on and off uh but uh I think at the time that I met her she wasn't when she would date people would they also be in the poker world, the gambling world? She would tell me about some of her, she told me about some of the guys she dated, and they were like, she said they played poker, but they weren't any well-known players.

I didn't know any of them. But did they play professionally? They just weren't famous? Yeah, I guess you could say that. Hmm. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about, I'm looking at her photo right now. She's just absolutely stunning. Her name is Susie Zhao.

Just a little bit over 30 years old and had climbed her way up amongst the ranks of professional poker players. A world that is shrouded in mystery to most of us. It involves all sorts of maneuvers, keeping secrets, gambling secrets, being able to bluff, but she couldn't bluff her way out of this. Her body is found burned to a crisp in a state park, a semi-remote state park near Pontiac Lake.

Straight out to Dr. Elaine, Pope Forensic Anthropologist. You can find her at burnedbone.com. Right there, that made me look it up. Her nickname, the Dame of Flame. Dr. Pope, let me first ask you, how did you get the nickname the Dame of Flame? Just years of research of my specialty, which is examining how the human body burns. It was just kind of a nickname that's been dubbed over the years.

You know, Dr. Pope, when I was a little girl, I did not dream of tromping through crime scenes and going to the crime lab and autopsies and looking at dead bodies lying in the floor and elsewhere. That was not my dream growing up. I thought I was going to write books and ride horses. Dr. Pope, did you actually think, dream of analyzing how the human body burned as a child, or did it just happen over time? It just happened over time. Okay, I'm glad to hear that.

I'm glad to hear that. That's not what you dreamed of when you were five years old. So, Dr. Pope, forensic anthropologist, autopsy supervisor, office chief medical examiner. How hard is it to burn a human body, completely burn it? Well, it takes, the important thing is that it takes fuel and time regarding this case I I don't have information about whether she was in a vehicle or outside and those those two different environments would create very different outcomes in terms of the type of damage that the body would incur during burning say for example a vehicle it's closed environment which would retain heat more efficiently than just say an

outdoor setting and so that so the burn patterns would be very different you know depending on the actual circumstances in which she was burned. Let's go to you Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What can you tell me about the discovery of her body? Was the vehicle burned or just her? Nancy, law enforcement has not given a lot of information. We do know that her vehicle, her vehicle was not found near the crime scene. And we know that two men discovered the body right after 8 a.m. That's something to wake up to. I do not think that the vehicle itself was burned. So, Dr. Elaine Pope, what does that mean to you,

that the vehicle may not have been burned, just her body? Without a vehicle in an outdoor fire setting, the burn patterns would be you know localized to the body in terms of you know it would the damage would be you know around the body on the body you know and and so those those would be very different burn patterns than if it was burned entirely inside. We're now getting an update, Dr. Elaine Pope, that the body was not in the vehicle. It was out in the open. We've been getting conflicting reports on that.

But, you know, one of the things I noticed to you, James Shelnut, 27 years Metro major case, now lawyer James Shelnut I noticed where one of the investigators made a public comment and said we don't know if the scene was staged yeah it was staged she wasn't burned there by the road or else there would be a huge burn pit and you would see evidence of her having been burned there. So any movement of the body post-mortem is staging. She did not go walking and fall over and have spontaneous combustion. So we know the scene was staged. What does that tell you, Shelnut? It tells me it wasn't random. But what does it tell you?

Well, I mean, obviously it tells me it wasn't random as well, but somebody's trying to cover something up. When people burn a body, burn a car, burn a house, they're trying to hide evidence, any evidence that would link them back to the scene of the murder. I saw one description of this death being a mysterious death. Well, there's nothing mysterious about the death except for who did it. This is a homicide. This lady was murdered.

Somebody burnt her body to destroy evidence. Take a listen to our friends at Detroit WXYZ7. This is Jim Kurtzner. I can't even think how somebody could do that. She was known on the professional poker circuit as Susie Q. Her friends here in Michigan say she started playing poker as a teen when they grew up in Troy. And after college, she played in the big games. In this one hand in 2017 in Los Angeles, she would scoop $16,000.

She was a free spirit in the truest sense. She played by her own rules. She followed her dreams. Absolutely brilliant. Police say Susie's murder may be connected to her gambling in other states or to somebody locally she met with recently. Guys, the burned body of a world-class female poker player, Susie Zhao, has been confirmed found in a semi-remote Michigan park. But what happened?

Back to you, Dr. Elaine Pope, forensic anthropologist at burnedbone.com. Depending on how badly burned the body is, how difficult will it be to determine cause of death? And how do you do that? That would be done at autopsy by forensic pathologists. They would do the external examination, you know, document the burn damage to all the extremsy is examining the internal, the organs, any muscles that were under protected underneath the burn skin. So the pathologists would look for actual evidence of injury as they would with a normal unburned body. So that procedure is pretty much the same, but they would essentially be looking for any damage to any tissues, any structures, organ systems.

And that would be that would be their part of their investigation. Joining me right now, former federal prosecutor, president of West Coast Trial Lawyers, Nima Rahmani. Nima, thank you for being with us. Thanks, Nancy, for having me. Nima, let me have you act as defense attorney here for a moment because not only did your client murder the victim, Susie Zhao, Susie Q, but also went to the extent of burning her body clearly to hide her identity. Why else would a defendant burn the body? Got any ideas on that? Well, I mean, obviously one theory is to, you know, hide the evidence and hide her identity. The other is to send a message, right? There's someone who's a gambler and this may be

gambling related and who knows who she owed money to. Okay, let me ask you something. Nima Rahmani, you're a very well-known defense attorney, former prosecutor. Are you telling me you think that happens a lot in the world, more than just on movies and in novels? Have you ever had a case, a revenge murder? Oh, I've prosecuted a number of revenge murders. I've prosecuted a number of revenge murders. I've prosecuted a number of gambling cases. I mean, gambling is real.

These debts are real. And the only way that these types of folks can make sure they're paid is to let others know that if you don't pay, there's going to be consequences. But wait a minute. She's the gambler bringing in all the money. So based on your premise, Nima Romani with me, that means send a message to who about what? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about a beautiful young girl, Su side of the road in a semi-remote area outside Pontiac Lake State Park. With me, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist.

You can find him on Insta at drdanielbober.com. Dr. Bober, take a listen to our friends at WXYZ7. She came here on June the 9th from Los Angeles. You have to determine whether or not this is a cover-up or this may be some sort of retaliatory incident because of her profession. Her friends say she kept details about her personal life private from them, but she was there for them during special times. I will remember that date because that was the night that I got engaged, and it was nice to have her there was in the hospital. I was in the hospital. I was in the hospital. I was in the hospital for a long time. I was in the hospital for a long time. I will remember that date

because that was the night that I got engaged. And. It was nice to have her there. Everybody loves her. Nobody ever remember her fighting with anybody ever. No conflict. No drama. Her body was found burned to death in

the Pontiac Lake recreation area on the morning of July 13th. Police say she was last seen by her mother the night before at 5.30. So this is a narrow window. Police are asking witnesses to come forward. We still are looking for anybody that may have seen or talked to Susie between Sunday at about 5.30 p.m. and the early hours of Monday morning. First of all, I have an issue with saying, is it a cover-up? Yes, it's a cover-up.

When you try to destroy a body and destroy evidence, you're covering something up. Whenever you stage a scene in any way, you're covering something up. Even in a case where a mom was murdered at home, the adult daughter then prosecuted, the daughter made the scene look like someone had come in and stolen, possibly raped and murdered the mom. Here's the giveaway. She placed a wastebasket, a trash can, over the mom's head. Why would a random killer do that? Because the scene was staged.

So there is a cover-up, but did you hear what else? They said she was found burned to death. We don't know that burning was the COD cause of death. To you, Yuval Bronstein, friend of Suzy Q's for years now, also a poker player, when you heard the female friend say everybody loved her, what was your experience with Suzy, Yuval? Is that true? Susie was absolutely, she was extremely kind and caring and trustworthy and always smiling. Everybody loved her and adored her. We all liked to watch her play on Live at the Bike. Everybody loved Susie. Nobody had any problems with her. Why did you love to watch her play? What about

her made it fun? I mean, I've watched her play online. Yeah. Well, she was on live at the bike and she was basically just smiling the whole time. And you could tell she was really enjoying it. And you could tell she really loves poker. And besides that, she's just a very good player. She's somebody you watch play and she makes very good plays. And for somebody who appreciates poker, it's enjoyable to watch that. What's Live at the Bike? Live at the Bike is a show where they basically invite some poker players to come play at the Bicycle Casino in Los Angeles, and then they film it and they stream it so you can watch it. Guys, you can see her playing at CrimeOnline.com.

How common is it for a woman to climb the ranks in professional gambling? I don't know what the exact percentages are, but they're low for women. There are numerous female players who are very good and have won big prizes playing poker. But in general, it's dominated by male players. Interesting. Interesting. And to you, forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober, what does that tell you? A woman in a male-dominated line of business, I believe that her killer was someone that knew her. I'm going to circle back to Nima Rahmani on the retaliation theory, but does that mean that most of her associates were men as well? I mean,

as a prosecutor, there were hardly any other female trial lawyers running courtrooms at the time I was prosecuting. So most of the people I hung out with were other prosecutors, males, people at the crime lab, males. That's just the way it was. Does that, since most violent crimes are committed by men, when you work in a male-dominated field, to me, that would increase your likelihood of being a victim of violent crime. Just statistically, Dr. Daniel Bober. Yes, Nancy. I mean, obviously how she lived was connected to how she died.

And it probably says something about her personality to get into such a male-dominated field like poker and to be able to, you know, excel in that area. So obviously there was someone that she died with. Well, what does it say? I don't know what you mean by that. What do you mean? It says something about her personality to be in a male-dominated field it says that she has to have some backbone some assertiveness uh to be able to compete in that world and to hold her own and to excel it says something about her personality that she has

a lot of inner strength to be able to do that you know she was pulling in about a quarter of a mil according to the ap at one point had winnings of around 200 grand at the World Series of Poker she made 73 almost 74 grand at a 2012 event at the World Series of Poker um I don't know what the professional poker life is like let me go back to Yuval Bronstein, friend of Susie since 2008. Is it like what you see in movies like Ocean's Eleven? Is that what it's like? No, it's absolutely nothing like that. And for somebody to go murder somebody over a debt is basically unprecedented. There are tons of people in the poker community who owe each other money. It's a very common thing, actually. And, you know, tons and tons of money. I mean,

some people owe each other millions of dollars. You never hear about this happening to somebody. Aside from that, I hung out with Susie in January was actually the last time I saw her. And she never mentioned anything to me about owing anybody money or anything like that. And the last thing is, you know, the place where she was found, where her parents live, I don't believe there is a poker scene there. So I don't know. I wasn't, you know, speaking to her at the time. Okay, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Yuval. Yeah. I think there's to her at the time. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yuval. Yeah. I think there's a poker scene everywhere. It may be underground, especially in states where gambling could be illegal. But I find it hard to believe. It's just like saying you live in a dry county. You don't.

Okay. You just pretend that you do. I think there's gambling everywhere. And I wonder what, if anything, that had to do with her murder. Did she beat somebody at gambling and they owed her a ton of money and would not agree to pay her? And I want to go back to Nima Rahmani. You know, you just heard one of the investigators say, was her murder retaliatory? So, you just heard one of the investigators say, was her murder retaliatory? So, you know what?

I'm eating a dirt sandwich right now because you said it could have been sending a message. I said, no, it wasn't. Hey, I still agree. I don't think it's sending a message to other people. But you also said retaliation, Nima, and I poo-pooed it. But is it in retaliation for a debt that was owed to her or a debt that she owed? Yuval says he didn't know of any debt she had. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the curious death of a female gambling star

that had clawed her way up the ranks in a male-dominated field of world-class poker. She'd been playing poker since she was in high school. She loved it. It was her thing. People loved watching her. So why was Susie Zhao found dead, her body burned, in a semi-remote area near State Park, Pontiac Lake, Michigan? Back to you, Nima Rahmani. So, you know what? As I said, I'm eating a dirt sandwich. If the investigators are considering retaliation,

you know, I can't dismiss that as well. What did you mean by that? You also said you'd had a lot of cases that were murders in retaliation. What, for drugs? What did you mean by that? Well well gambling related debt so you mean the person owed money yes absolutely and look you're talking about a woman who's 33

years old who moved back home with her parents you know she left her life here in los angeles to move home so something's going on and her last significant winning was back in 2012. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. I want to follow up on something you just said because it's very significant. You're giving me a lot of information, Nima. It's like drinking out of a fire hydrant. Hold on just a moment. To you, Yuval Bronstein, why did Susie move back with her mom?

Was she afraid of something? From what I gathered, basically at this point in her poker career, it wasn't going well for her. And she had lost her bankroll. And she was kind of forced to leave Los Angeles and move back. She lost what? Her bankroll. She lost her bankroll. Okay, what do you mean by lost her bankroll? Basically, she wasn't succeeding anymore and she'd lost her winnings. Basically, she'd gone broke and couldn't stay in L.A. and play poker. And she was going through some other issues, apparently, and that's why she moved back in with her parents. What other issues? Look, the reason I'm asking you all, I don't have some prurient interest in her personal life. But in my mind, do you agree or disagree to you, James Shelnut, as an investigator?

You have to know everything. Is it a boyfriend? Is it an ex? Did she owe money? Did she have a stalker? It could be anything. And the tiniest detail could crack the case, Shelnut. Agreed 100%.

You know, the investigators right now are very likely investigating every aspect of Susie. They want to know her. They want to know who she's been speaking with. They want to know what personal problems she had. Did she have a beef with someone to where she did owe this money? I haven't seen a report confirming that. I know that that's been thrown out as a possibility. You know, you're going to want to know that she did.

She have any personal problems, any psychological problems going on, and who she was dealing with at the time. But yes, I mean, you can't overlook any detail as you know, Nancy, in a murder investigation because sometimes as you know, Nancy, in a murder investigation, because sometimes, as you say, it is the smallest detail that cracks the case. I wonder what reason she really did leave L.A. to forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Boebert. That's a big life change to go from the glitz and glamour of L.A., which is a stone's throw to Vegas, back to near Pontiac, Michigan. That is a big lifestyle change, Dr. Bober. Yeah, Nancy, and moving in with your parents and probably going broke.

I mean, these are all major life transitions that, you know, may have some connection to how she died. You know, to you, Yuval Bronstein, friend of Susie since 2008, that's a huge lifestyle change. I remember after Dancing with the Stars, moving after about a year in L.A. back home to take care of my parents. It was a huge lifestyle change and one that I wanted. Yeah, it was great.

They say, oh, there's Steve Martin. Oh, there's Paul Abdul, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's wonderful. But when you're raising children, you want, uh, I wanted the whole thing, the whole stable home life, stable community, the works. So I'm just, that's what motivated me to get back home to extended family. I'm very curious about why she moved. And also, Yuval, I keep hearing an echo over and over that she was a quote, very private person. Was she a private person? Was she naturally reticent or was there were there things she did not want to share for a reason what do you what can you tell me about her you've all uh suzy was definitely somewhat of a enigma she uh she didn't really share any details about her life unless uh unless you asked her uh but yeah i mean she she basically kept private to herself i also am curious about

the mindset of someone that would burn a human body uh dr elaine pope with me forensic anthropologist you can find her at burnedbone.com she has dedicated her career to the effects of burning on the human body. Dr. Pope, it's a real pleasure to speak with you. And I wonder if you've wondered. It would be very difficult for me. It's very different to just shoot somebody at a distance, bam, they're dead. That versus pouring accelerant on a body and setting it on fire and watching it burn and having to try over and over and over to burn human flesh. Have you ever thought about what kind of a mind it takes to do that? That's completely out of my area of expertise.

I know, me too, but i still wonder because i see it a lot you've never wondered that i mean for me it's an extra step of the of the of the crime process oh that's interesting what do you mean by that it's an extra step in the crime process what does that mean well well like you said, you shoot somebody or whatever. It's just an extra step. Oh, I see what you mean. An extra step and a very difficult step, I might add, to burn a human body. I guess there's something, Dr. Daniel Bober, I need to shrink again. There's something that seems so wrong, devilish, to burn, put a match to a human body, to flesh.

There's just something abhorrent and repellent about that. What is it? Well, then again, Nancy, it takes a certain kind of mind state to plan a murder and take someone out. So I think it's all part of that. I think it's all part of that ability to not see someone as a living being, but to see them as an object that's getting in the way of something. off my prosecutor hat just for a moment. Would you agree that shooting somebody, bam, it's over in an instant? But the cover-up, have you ever had cases where the body has been put in lie or dismembered or burned or some, you know, intricate method of hiding or destroying the body. I think that takes a whole nother mindset, Nima.

I don't know what the right words are to describe this, but have you ever had cases like that? And you just think, why would you go through all this, like putting acid on a body or burning a body? It's, as Dr. Pope said, or burning a body it's as dr pope said another step but it's it's fiendish well nancy has to be a drug cartel prosecutor so i've seen it all and thank god i don't do any defense work but i've had a lot of these cases a lot of cases where bodies have been dismembered so not surprising to see it here The psyche behind the dismemberment or the destruction of a body is something I will never understand.

Back to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Now the FBI is in on the case. Why? Because that opens up a whole other Pandora's box. Yes, the FBI has said that they will assist the local police with anything needed in this case. And Nancy, her body was burned, but police were able to get fingerprints. And they were also able to identify a specific tattoo unique to her that was on the body. Do you know what the tattoo is?

No, they have not revealed what the tattoo was. So whoever tried to burn her body did not do a very good job at it. We wait as justice unfolds for professional gambler Susie Zhao. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.