Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Gorgeous young mom found in nightgown in her own bed, AXE embedded in her forehead. Tot girl in room next door.

Episode Date: January 13, 2020

A retired business executive has been arrested for the 1982 murder of his wife. Police say James Krauseneck used an axe to hack his sleeping wife, Cathleen, in the forehead. He then leaves his toddler daughter alone in their house all day with her dead mommy, police say.The case stumped police for nearly four decades.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Kathleen Murphy: Family attorney Cloyd Steiger: 36 years with Seattle Police Department, 22-year homicide detective & author of "Seattle's Forgotten Serial Killer: Gary Gene Grant" Dr. Bethany Marshall: Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Dr. Michelle Dupre: South Carolina Medical Examiner & author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” Nancy Monaghan: Reporter for Democrat & Chronicle (retired) & co-author of upcoming book on the Krauseneck murder  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Well, right when you think you've heard it all, you find out you're nowhere near hearing it all. A man comes home to find his wife murdered, not just murdered, but with an axe still embedded in her forehead. Lying in her own bed, seemingly asleep at the time of the incident, but to make matters worse, her three-year-old little girl at home when mommy was murdered. We knew that because the baby has blood on her clothing, and she tried to dress herself, putting on two sweaters backwards, clearly not getting help from Mommy.

What happened? An axe embedded in her forehead? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brighton Police responded to a 911 call from a neighbor of James Krausnick Jr. When officers arrived at the neighbor's house, they were ultimately led to the home of James, his wife Kathleen, and their daughter Sarah, 33 DEL RIO DRIVE. OFFICERS ARRIVED AT THE HOUSE TO FIND KATHLEEN DECEASED. SHE DIED FROM A SINGLE BLOW TO HER HEAD FROM AN AXE. GARY PRINTI WAS AN INVESTIGATOR ON THE CASE SINCE DAY ONE. PRINTI SAYS HE'LL NEVER FORGET ARRIVING TO THE SCENE THAT DAY. one printy says he'll never forget arriving to the scene that day it was not a pleasant scene

it was the first one that i had ever seen this violent and i hope i never see another one the police knocked on our door after midnight first thing they said there's been a they didn't call it a murder there been was a homicide, and it was Kathy. Wow. You are hearing from our friends at WROC News 8. That was reporter Kayla Green and others. What happened to Kathleen? Kathleen found in her bed with an axe embedded deeply in her forehead.

It sounds like the stuff that horror movies are made of you don't expect that in real life for this lovely wife and mother to be found with an axe embedded in her forehead it reminds you of the horrible histories of nursery rhymes like, how does it go, Dr. Bethany Marshall, 40 Wax, Lizzie? How does it go, Dr. Bethany? That's right. And the Grimm's fairy tales where children are shoved in ovens and all the horrible fairy tales that we heard growing up. I do not remember the 40-watt. Okay, you know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, as much as I appreciate you and all your many, many, many degrees and papers,

I had to go to Jackie Howard in the studio. How does it go, Jackie? Lizzie, what? Lizzie Borden took an axe, gave her mother 40-watt. Okay, thank you. You see, I had to go to her institutional memory of horror. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. My point is, it's almost too awful to take in. With me, an all-star panel. And boy, do I mean it. Joining me, Cloyd Steiger, 36-year Seattle PD, 22 years homicide, author of Seattle's Forgotten Serial Killer, Gary Gene Grant. You can find him at cloydsteiger.com. Kathleen Murphy.

She knows her way around the North Carolina courtroom and beyond. Renowned psychoanalyst out of L.A., Dr. Bethany Marshall at drbethanymarshall.com. South Carolina medical examiner and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And you may not agree with me, but I got to tell you, that is quite the read. Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me right now, reporter with the Democrat and Chronicle, former co-author of an upcoming book on this very topic at KraussNet.com, Nancy Monaghan. Nancy, before I go to you, I've got to go to Dr. Michelle Dupree. Dr. Michelle, an ax embedded in this woman's forehead, and she couldn't have been more defenseless.

She apparently was asleep in bed, Dr. Michelle. What, Dr. Michelle Dupree, does an ax actually, one blow with an ax to the skull, I assume, depending on the velocity, would crack the skull and go directly into the brain? Yes, absolutely. What a gruesome scene that must have been. The ax would have obviously fractured the skull and gone deep into the actual surface of the brain, causing obviously extensive damage and death. How much force would it require to actually crack the skull? For instance, I've seen cases where someone had been bludgeoned dead,

and the medical examiner would state, for instance, this is the same velocity as you would get from a car crash at 60 mph. What velocity would it take with an ax, single blow, to crack open the skull, Dr. Michelle Dupree? Well, because the ax is a sharp force instrument, it is going to crack the skull with a little less force than you might expect. However, our skulls are very thick and it would still require an extensive amount of force to do that. You know, when you say our skulls are very thick, would you explain what you mean by that? Because every time somebody feels a little lump or they have a pimple or a cyst, they think they have brain cancer or a tumor. But there is a very thick skull between your skin and your brain.

So how thick is the skull? Well, Nancy, the skull actually varies in thickness depending on where we are talking about. So the location, though, of this, in this case, is the forehead. And the forehead is one of the thicker parts uh approximately a quarter of an inch to two three quarters of an inch thick in places and the skull is made of of course bone but what do you compare the density of the skull to uh is it like a board is it like cement what's the density well that's an interesting question i've never really quite thought about it um it's more the that's the first time I've thought about it, doctor.

The density is certainly more like a board rather than a concrete. It is not as hard as concrete would be. And again, because the bone is somewhat porous, it is going to be less dense than that. Guys, we are talking about a beautiful young woman, Kathleen Krasnick, found bludgeoned dead. Well, I don't think bludgeoned is the right word. She was attacked with an axe. One blow to the head. The weapon, interesting, found wiped clean of any fingerprints and a window broken from the outside. To Chloe Steiger, you know, that's really an art to determine was the window broken from the inside or the outside? Was a window screen

slashed from the inside or the outside? Explain how we know a window is broken from the outside. This is not like somebody broke it from the inside trying to make it look like a break-in. Right. Well, you have to know that you can tell the difference. And the most obvious difference when you break a window from the outside is that most of the broken glass is on the inside because that's the way the physics would take it. So that's actually a pretty simple thing to do. And it's really common with people trying to stage crimes too that they that they do they break a window or something the question you have to have is it's a broken window well was there an opening big enough somebody to crawl in without getting all cut up or not and if there's not or or what about big enough to get reach your hand in to unlock the window and then lift the window well there's

another issue many times i've been, how do you tell if a window screen has been sliced from the outside or the inside? You may not be able to tell with the naked eye, but once you put the screen under a microscope, you can actually see which way the metal in the screen is bent. If it's bent toward the inside of the room, it was slashed from the outside. If it's bent, and you really do have to look under a microscope to see this, outward toward the yard or the outside, then you know it was staged and it was cut from the inside. Let's go to our veteran reporter, Nancy Monaghan, formerly with Democrat and Chronicle, and co-author on an upcoming book on her murder. Nancy, thanks so much for being with us.

It's a real pleasure to have someone so close to the case to explain a lot of the evidence to us. Tell me about the severity of the attack. What can you tell me about the attack on Kathleen Krasnick, just 29 years old? It was one ax blow to her left temple. And how far that wound went, I think it was pretty significant. And she was asleep, as most axe murder victims are. It's hard to chase down somebody with an axe, so you wouldn't pick an axe if you had to chase somebody down the street.

I do want to mention that the broken window was downstairs. It was the door from the garage to the kitchen that was broken. Hold on, hold on. Let me digest what you just said. So the broken window, not in the bedroom. It was downstairs. It was the door between the garage into the kitchen. So it was the door from the garage into the kitchen. I wonder if that garage had one of the doors that you have to have a code to or you have to have an access, or it may have even been left open. It was open. There was no, yes, it was easy to get access to the garage. The door to the garage was locked.

And let me think now, from the garage into the kitchen. So do we know which side the glass was on? Yes, they determined that had been broken from the outside. Do you think the person crawled through the door or they just broke the door in order to get to the door handle? Just broke the window to get to the handle. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. the gorgeous young wife of a business executive found dead in her own bed she was asleep at the time she was attacked with an axe joining me kathleen murphy north carolina family attorney cloyd steiger dr bethany marshall dr michelle Dupree, and Nancy Monahan. I'm very curious, Floyd Steiger, how they could tell she was asleep at the time she was attacked. I would guess it was because the way the body was laying and the lack of any defensive wounds or anything like that. And if it wasn't her temple, and I thought it was at her point, maybe she was laying on her

side and it just looked like she had not reacted at all. Her arms and legs were down beside her. There was no struggle at all. That's what I would guess. You know what's really interesting to me, so many facts and details, Dr. Bethany Marshall, the ax was wiped clean. Now that is a big red flag to me because, yes, it's anecdotal. It's based on all the cases I've investigated, tried, or covered, but typically, random attackers do not take time to stage the scene, to clean up the weapon. They leave the weapon in her skull, but they

wipe it clean, or is the weapon still in her skull, Nancy Monahan? Oh, yes, it was. Yes, it was. Wow. Okay, so Dr. Bethany Marshall, who would think to wipe clean the murder weapon? Well, this tells me that this was not a crime of opportunity, right? This is not somebody who just broke into the house to ransack and find jewelry or cash. This is not somebody who just wanted to commit a rape homicide. I'm assuming she wasn't sexually violated. I haven't read that anywhere. So whoever did this knew her. And I would want to know who had she been in contact with? Did she have any admirers? Was she having an affair? Was she being stalked? Was there a person in the neighborhood who had taken a special interest in her, the fact that somebody embedded an ax in her forehead

and then wiped up the evidence means that this is somebody who had tremendous rage towards her. And to me, that speaks of a crime of passion, whether it's a spouse, a stalker, an ex-boyfriend, but somebody who took a very special interest in her and felt that she had maybe jilted them or rejected them in some way. I'm also curious, to Nancy Monaghan, former reporter, Democrat and Chronicle, Nancy, was she sex assaulted or had anything been stolen from the home? No, to both. She was not and nothing had been taken. I can't imagine the shock it would bring on when you come in and find

your wife dead with the ax still embedded in her head. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I just keep saying, it doesn't even sound real. It sounds like it's from a horror movie. Right, so you imagine her husband comes home around 5 p.m., right? I imagine he was an executive. I think he had a doctorate. He comes in. He sees his wife with an ax embedded in her skull. This was so long ago that I'm wondering, are there any 911 calls? Has anyone spoken to his demeanor when he called the police? Did he seem calm? Did he seem agitated? I mean, I think that type of behavioral evidence would be so important in beginning to try to solve this crime since in these sorts of

crimes you always look to the spouse first so I'm wondering what how did he behave after he found his wife with the ax embedded in her skull are there any detectives or policemen who were working that working that particular crime who spoke to that. Well, you're absolutely right. In every homicide investigation, the first place cops and detectives look is at the spouse, the boyfriend, the ex, the ex-spouse, and as you were pointing out, anybody in the neighborhood or at work that had been paying special attention to her. Take a listen to what her sister, Annette Schlosser, tells WHAM 13.

James Krausnick told police he'd come home from his Kodak job to find his 29-year-old wife dead with an ax embedded in her skull. The couple's three-and-a-half-year-old daughter had spent the day alone in the home with her mother's corpse. I remember dropping to my knees in my dorm room. I just couldn't believe it. She was my favorite sister and my best friend. To Nancy Monaghan, former reporter, Democrat, and Chronicle,

and who has also co-authored a book on this murder, Nancy questioned, the sister gets the call about the murder, and the three-year-old little girl was in her crib all day with her mother dead? She was not in her crib. She was in the house all day long, wandering around. She had been in the bedroom, saw her mother, actually had a little blood on her clothing, but didn't recognize her as her mother. And she was wandering around the house all day. By the time her husband, Kathy's husband,

came home, little Sarah was back in her bedroom and she had tried to dress herself. She had on two sweaters backwards. Oh, you know what? Just that detail is so heartbreaking. To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, to leave the three-year-old little girl wandering around the house all day long. She goes and finds her mom's body. Nancy Monahan clarified that because she actually had blood, I think she said, on some of the little girl's clothing. So she had made it to her mom and had come to try to dress herself, putting on her sweaters backwards. I mean, that's the kind of thing a child never forgets, Kathleen Murphy. That child will never forget that experience. And Nancy, with that child wandering around the house for the entire day, I just wonder, what did she see? And at three and a half years old,

what has she vocalized at that point to the police officers. Because at that age, she's old enough to tell somebody what she saw and what she interviewed. You know, I have a question to Dr. Bethany Marshall. What can you tell me about the brutality behind 29-year-old Kathleen's axe murder? And what does that tell you about her killer? It tells me that the killer had a relationship with her. And what I mean by that was maybe in love with her, had a preoccupation with her, was fascinated by her, felt rejected by her. But whoever put this ax in her skull was obsessed with this victim. You don't kill somebody in that kind of an overkill, brutal kind of way unless you have feelings, right? Feelings of rejection, rage, envy, hostility,

feeling jilted in some way. And unless those feelings have been brewing for some time. So whoever did this knew her over months or even years, Nancy, because these feelings don't just crop up in five minutes. You don't just break into a house, start looking for cash and jewelry, see a woman and, oh, I am so enraged. I'm just going to put an ax in her forehead. No, you are going to have a relationship with that person. That's what the brutality tells me. Nancy Monaghan, former reporter with Democrat and Chronicle, who has extensively researched the murder. Tell me about the brutality of Kathleen's murder. I've done a lot of research on axe murders, and they are very personal.

They are always filled with rage. And I mean, it is a statement well beyond any other weapon that someone can use. And all it takes, and all it took in this case, was that one major blow that cracked her skull open. Interestingly, there was no blood on the wall. It didn't spatter. There was certainly, after the axe went in, the blood did run down, and there was a lot of blood on her and the bed. And that's what the young girl, Sarah, the daughter, saw. Well, we also know this. There was premeditation because unless they sleep with an axe by their bed,

somebody, as Jackie's pointing out, had to bring that axe upstairs. Not only that, the killer thought to wipe the axe clean. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I mean, when we found out for sure that he never passed, he got his doctors, well, then I knew then because he lied to her that he had it all the time. You are hearing Robert Schlosser, Kathleen's father. He's talking to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle to Nancy Monahan. You know, it may have been considered irrelevant at the time, but I find it very relevant when you find out for all the time you have courted and been married, your husband has been lying to you about earning his Ph.D. What can you tell me? Nancy Monaghan joining me, who has co-authored a book on Kathleen Krosnick's murder.

Nancy, what did he claim he had his Ph.D. in? Economy. He said he was a Ph.D. economist. He had not, in fact, earned his Ph.D., which was one of the really striking issues in this whole affair. He had finished his dissertation. He had done all the coursework. All he had to do was make a few changes in his dissertation, which he never did. He lied to his co-workers at Lynchburg. He got the job at Kodak based on the fact that he had the PhD, or said he had the PhD, and he never did. And even when Kodak was pressing him to show proof that he had the PhD after he had started working, this was a major issue in the household and at Kodak because he was under pressure to produce it. He kept saying that there was some paperwork mix up at Colorado State where he had attended and done all his work.

And to the end, he claimed that he had the PhD, but he didn't. I'm very interested in his lying about who he really is. I'm really curious about what he claimed he wrote his dissertation about, because I remember how hard my sister, who went to the Wharton School and actually became a professor there, how hard she worked getting her Ph.D. I mean, it is hard. I mean, technically speaking, Kathleen Murphy, we're jurors' doctorates because we went through three years of law school but i don't think many lawyers had to write a dissertation it's very very hard to do kathleen

murphy i couldn't imagine it except to say nancy that do you remember studying for the bar and taking the bar exam and knowing that if you didn't pass, you weren't going to be that practicing lawyer. It's intense. And it is a professional responsibility. Kathleen Murphy, I can't, maybe I blocked that out, but the bar either lasted two or three days. You'd have to go back. You didn't finish it in one day. And it would take eight hours. And I remember going in and I would not even get up while we were taking the test to even go to the bathroom because I did not literally want to miss one minute of that could risk not completing it or not being able to go back over and check my

answers and it was almost like I lost track of time and space during the bar. Can you imagine? It was like I sat down, and all of a sudden, the day, the eight hours were over, and when I finished the bar, Kathleen, it was being held in Atlanta and I had to drive back to my apartment in Macon, which was about a two-hour drive. I got in the car, and I had to get out from behind the wheel. Somebody else had to drive, and I had to get out from behind the wheel. Somebody else had to drive and I had to lay down in the back seat because it felt like the moment I had finished the bar after whatever,

two or three days and sat down in the car, it felt like somebody hit me in the head with a cement brick. And I mean, I had never felt anything like it in my life. I could hardly even see. That's when it kicked in. But I remember Kathleen going to get my LLM at NYU. We had paper after paper after paper. But I guess you could compare it to that. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills. Dr. Bethany, why do people lie about their credentials? I mean, he had a college degree. He could have gone back and finished the dissertation, made the changes. He heard what Nancy Monah had said, but he didn't. He chose to lie about it instead. This guy falls into a very special category,

and he's not alone. He's what we call ABD. ABD is all but dissertation. There's a sub. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I've never heard that before. And ABD, I'm writing it down. All but the dissertation and the wife found out. And I learned all about this. It's a group of people who go through all of their training. And for some reason, they do not want to defend their dissertation. And by defend, defending a dissertation means that you've already written it, you already have your committee of three people. Defending doesn't mean that you talk about your dissertation, you have to sit down and listen to your committee criticize and tear apart your dissertation. So you have to hear what they have to say about your body of work. But think about this, Nancy. So if I think of my education, I have three years of college, four years of graduate school, and then 16 years of postgraduate in order to become a psychoanalyst. Imagine going through all of that and not being able to sit down

and hear what other people have to say about your body of work. I mean, what I've seen with people who are ABD is that they are very avoidant individuals. And usually they are avoidant in every part of their life. They do not want to be criticized. They do not want people to look down on them. Sometimes they have social anxiety. So if Krasnick falls into this category, this is not the only thing he's lying about in his life. There are probably many things that he has not faced or been responsible about. And this is not a man who can tolerate criticism because he did not want to present his dissertation to his committee. To Nancy Monaghan, who has actually written a book about this murder. Nancy, what was his undergrad degree in?

And I'm sure his wife, Kathleen Krasnick, would have loved him if he had said, I'm working on my Ph.D. I don't think that would have changed his family. Kodak would probably have hired him anyway, knowing that he was working on his dissertation. What was his undergrad degree in, if you know, Nancy? It was some sort of a business degree. But, you know, remember, Kathleen did not know this in the beginning. He went right from Colorado State and his dissertation to his teaching job at Lynchburg and was saying that he was working on it. His colleagues, they knew that he didn't have it and that he was supposedly working on it, just filing the corrections. So it was a good while. In fact,

I believe it was after they moved to Rochester before Kathleen found out that there was no degree and it was only a few months before her death. You know, I'm just very, I wouldn't say obsessed, but I'm fascinated with the desire to lie. And sometimes, Dr. Bethany, my children will come home and say, so-and-so Johnny said that his dad works for special ops, and that he this and he that, and he has, you know, a treasure chest of gold coins hidden, blah, blah. And I say, children, children wait be nice to Johnny because not his real name because I believe people boast and lie

to make themselves feel better about themselves because they obviously have some kind of insecurity they can't just be who they are. Why do people puff themselves up? Like, for instance, on their resume, not just to get a job, but in life, why do you lie about it? Why do people lie for three different reasons? First, there's the pathological liar. The pathological liar says whatever comes to their mind to actually manipulate the people around them.

They're more callous, manipulative, and they kind of fall into this category of puffery. And they don't think they'll be caught for their lies. The second category of lying is what we call compulsive lying. Compulsive lying is when you quickly say whatever comes to your mind in order to please another person. Like I saw this couple where the wife would say to the husband, did you get the milk at the grocery store? And she'd say, yeah, I saw this couple where the, the wife would say to the husband, did you get the milk at the grocery store? And she'd say, yeah, I got it. And she'd look in the refrigerator, there was no milk. And he wanted to please her in that moment, not thinking that she would catch him. We go back to the first category. I think this guy was probably pretty sociopathic

in different areas of his life and probably lied extensively and had this whole kind of an alter ego or personality that he presented to the people around him. And a part of it was a cover for the avoidance of not, you know, finishing the dissertation. But I wouldn't be surprised if he told other stories about himself to more in that manipulative kind of way, just it's puffery, but it's also manipulation. He's manipulating how people see him for his own gratification without any sense of what that's going to do to the lives of those around him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. What happened? Kathleen Krasnick found dead in her own bed just at 29 years old with an ax still embedded deeply in her forehead. I find it interesting and probative. It proves something that she was attacked in her face, in her forehead. Of course, you have to be a shrink to figure out what that means, but I know this. Although her husband, James Krasnick, had the higher paying job that he wanted, trouble was brewing. His bosses at Kodak were asking him about his PhD. He kept promising to give them evidence that he had in fact gotten the degree. Pressure was mounting at work. He became distant at home. Wife Kathy actually told her friends he would come home from work angry. Police later said it appeared he had been sleeping in the den the marriage strained

kathy had started talking about leaving and taking sarah home to michigan so many factors swirling around the murder of kathleen krausnick just 29 years old at the time of her death and then a twist in the case. Brighton police renewed their efforts on the case four years ago, enlisting help from the FBI. What led to the arrest today has not been revealed, but Kathleen's sister believes she knows the motive. I believe, knowing my sister, she was all about education. That Jim did not actually pass his verbal dissertation, so he did not earn his PhD, and he lied about it, and he was calling himself Dr. Krasnick. When she found out, I am certain she confronted him on it. He snapped.

And I believe that's when he killed her. Kathleen Krosnick's 92-year-old father, still alive, found out the news today. He's charged with murder. He posted bail. And I think a lot of us will remember talking to police that night that it appeared that they made it look, whoever did it, made it look like there'd been a burglary in the house, but there was always doubt. You're hearing our friends at WHAM 13. That was Doug Emlish talking. Not only Doug, but you're hearing Kathleen's sister as well.

Murder over a PhD? That's a little far-fetched. You know, when people go that far to almost get their PhD, to go through all that education, you'd think they were well-reasoned and wouldn't commit a murder. But take a listen to this. The trial of the husband accused in the Brighton axe murder could hinge on what a nationally known doctor has to say about one small but key detail. Dr. Michael Baden is known as the celebrity pathologist. The expert has conducted over 20,000 autopsies and investigated the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy

and Martin Luther King Jr. Now, Brighton police say the timeline is crucial. 13WHAM reports that James Krausneck told authorities his wife and daughter were sleeping when he left for work at 6 30 a.m. His wife died of a single blow to her head with an axe. After an autopsy, the medical examiner ruled the time of death was actually between 2 30 and 9 30 a.m. Plenty of time for her husband to have completed the crime before he left for work. And that's why Brighton police are bringing on Dr. Baden to confirm the timeline. Wow. Our friends at WENY, that was Olivia Jagquith, to Nancy Monaghan, former reporter, Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy, after all these years, why do police now believe Kathleen's husband, James, is the killer? And what can you tell me about the evidence supporting their claim? Well, the time of death is clearly one of the big issues that they are pursuing. And

whoever was speaking there, it was correct that they've originally said it was between 2.30 and 9.30. He left the house at 6.30. And if they can narrow that time of death to anything that's close to being before 630, their case obviously is a whole lot stronger. That time of death has always been one of the key factors in this case. And Dr. Bodden has, I don't know what his testimony is going to be, but clearly he has found something in the evidence that he has been able to narrow the time of death. I don't know if he has a precise time of death. I don't think so based on everything I know about how they determine that, but he has obviously found something that narrows it much closer. And the other thing is there was no DNA in 1982 when this happened. I know that they had sent several

pieces of evidence and did some DNA testing. However, it's really difficult to understand what exactly they would, if they found anything on the DNA that would be useful now against Mr. Krausnack. He lived there. His DNA was all over the house. So that's uncertain. They're keeping the evidence quite close to the vest, but time of death is clearly a key one. Floyd Steiger, 36 years Seattle PD, including 22 years on homicide. Floyd, yes, someone's DNA is going to be found in their home. But what DNA, since the ax was wiped clean, would you expect to find? Well, that's the amazing thing about DNA technology today, because just a few years ago, nothing,

but because of the advanced ability to collect minute amounts of DNA and process those now, you would expect to find touch DNA. And Nancy McMahon was correct. Finding the husband's touch DNA on an ax that was presumably their ax would be nothing, but what would mean something is if they didn't find anybody else's DNA on that ax. Because even if you wiped it clean, there's still going to be touch DNA on that ax, unless you bleach it or, you know, there's DNA still. When you put clothes through the wash and come out, they can find DNA on the clothing still.

So, I mean, that's, the absence of some of the DNA on the axe handle is huge. The case remained unsolved for decades, but the FBI's Cole Case Working Group took it back up in 2016 and carried out new forensic tests. Based on those forensic tests, detectives now point the finger at the husband who lied about his PhD. Exactly as Cloyd Steiger says, no one else's DNA turned up in the home. No rape, no theft. The axed, wiped, cleaned, that means the scene was staged. The grand jury unsealed an indictment against the husband,

charging him with second-degree murder and the first of his four wives. Nancy Monaghan, who are these other women? Are they still alive? Yes, they are. He married his second wife in Michigan. After this happened, he took Sarah and went back to Michigan, and that was in 1982, and he married his second wife in 1986. They were only married a very short time in a difficult situation, and then he married his third wife around late 80s or maybe 1990. I don't have the date in front of me, but we do know that. They were married about five years, and now he's married to his fourth wife. They've been married, oh, at least 10 years or so, probably a little longer.

And they're still together. We know that Krosnick had been released on $100,000 bail, and he handed in his passport the trial is pled not guilty and apparently his now adult daughter sarah is siding with him what about it nancy monaghan well uh remember uh you know this girl grew up from she was three and a half when this happened so she grew up with her father. I think it's human nature. If somebody tells you your father killed somebody, you aren't going to believe it. And the tragic situation here is with this girl. She has two little daughters of her own, one born on her mother's birthday, by the way. And whatever she remembers, if she remembers something she did three years

later, she was talking in school about the day her mother died. But she never, there was never a counselor. There was no professional help given to this girl. So whatever she knew, if she, what she knew, what she saw is repressed, I would suspect, if you're a psychologist. Right. I just don't understand why they gave this guy bond. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina, family lawyer, why did he get bond? I would say it's the time lapse of this murder, and it's a highly circumstantial case. I mean, if you... So? You're the prosecutor, Nancy, and I think that in these types of cases, it's very frustrating when there's, there's a bond issued, especially when he left the state the very next day after the murder of his wife. Well, I can tell you this, the fact that the

killer managed to walk free for all these years, in my mind, makes the case even worse. I don't understand. The judge granting bond does not weigh in on the facts to say it's a weak case or it's not a weak case or it's circumstantial. The facts and the law are up to the jury. They are the sole, that's within the sole province of the jury to determine if the facts are weak or strong. This is a murder indictment and the fact that the killer has managed to slither away for all these years should not be a bonus and him get bond. Absolutely not. I'm very upset about him getting bond. He has pled not guilty. Based on what we know, I'm just also questioning to Dr. Bethany Marshall, why would the daughter side with the dad?

Well, probably he's been weaving a tail all these years. Remember, he lied about his dissertation. He moved her out of state the very next day after the homicide. And he's probably been kind of working her over, so to speak, all these years. You know, when we have a realization about our parents, we don't have it in one instant. I have patients come to therapy and they talk for years about their childhood before they finally have insight into who their parents are, especially if they have a very personality disorder parent. So even though she's siding with her father, she actually might secretly be sitting in court and

kind of listening to all the evidence and thinking, hmm, I wonder if he did do it. You know, some people, when they have evidence presented to them that's contrary to what they already believe, it will entrench their beliefs further. But she may be one of these people where she's siding with him to the public, but behind the scenes talking to her friends, talking to her therapist, talking to her confidants, and trying to grapple with what might really have happened to her mother and to her on that fateful day. I feel that there's got to be more evidence that we don't know about supporting this grand jury indictment. The fact that there was no one else's DNA there.

The scene was staged. He leaves immediately after the murder and refuses to speak to police, then moves again. Did he ever, Nancy Monahan, submit to a polygraph, or did he ever sit down and talk to police? And where was the funeral? He talked to police that evening, that night, right after the discovery. But his parents drove from Michigan overnight, and he had promised to come back to the police station the next morning. He did not. He and Sarah went with the parents and went up back to Michigan. He never had a polygraph. He was never interviewed by the police. He did hire a lawyer who,

as defense lawyers do, do not allow the police to talk to him without conditions. So no, he never spoke to police until in 2016, an investigator from the Brighton Police Department did go to Gig Harbor in Washington, where he was living then, with an FBI agent, and they did speak to him then at that time. I do not know what he said. I do know it was a bit of a lengthy interview, but I don't know what he said. We also know that there were marital problems. He was sleeping on the sofa. We also know that he claimed he would let the daughter talk to police and have an interview,

but that that never happened. While he seemingly appeared to be cooperative, he never followed through and left town. Well, I know this. I know that forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Bodden, who I respect deeply, don't always agree with him, is going to testify in this case. Press conferences have gone on. Of course, his daughter standing by him, which is going to have a huge impact on the jury, who would assume she would want justice for her mother. As it stands right now in New York, if convicted on second-degree murder, the sentence is 15 to 25 years behind bars. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.