Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - GUILTY ALL COUNTS: RICHARD ALLEN STONE-FACED AS DELPHI JURY SAYS HE MURDERED ABBY & LIBBY, LEFT BODIES IN WOODS

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

The jury took two minutes from entering the courtroom to announce the verdict: Richard Allen, guilty on all charges. Allen was convicted of felony murder for Abby Williams and Libby German, as well as for knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull maintained order in the courtroom, where there were no outbursts, but outside on the streets of Delphi, shouts of "Guilty on all charges" echoed. As Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife, left the courthouse, she was heard saying, "This isn't over at all." The jury, composed of seven women and five men, heard 17 days of testimony, including dozens of witnesses, disturbing jailhouse videos of Richard Allen, and photos of Abby and Libby as they were found at the crime scene. They deliberated for 19 hours over parts of four days to reach a unanimous verdict. Richard Allen was found guilty of four counts: two counts of felony murder and two counts of knowingly and intentionally killing Abby Williams and Libby German. Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé  – Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst, Author – “Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: “Paris in Love” on Peacock;, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLivSheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Bill Daly – Former FBI Investigator and Forensic Photography, Security Expert Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;”X: @JoScottForensic  Susan Hendricks – Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;” IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guilty, guilty, guilty on all counts. Murder defendant Richard Allen stone-faced as that Delphi jury hands down a verdict saying he murdered Abby and Libby, leaving their bodies in the woods. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Guilty. Guilty on all counts. In the Delphi double murder trial, Richard Allen has just been found guilty.

Four days of deliberation. guilty on all counts. Finally, for Abby and Libby, justice is served. Two charges of felony murder and two charges of malice murders. Shouts of jubilation or shouts of extreme relief as a court watcher comes out of the courthouse and before they could get to the bottom of the steps, yelled out guilty. The crowd erupted. For those of you just joining us, Richard Allen has been found guilty on all four counts in the murders of Abby and Libby. It's over. Or is it? Allen's wife comes out and clearly states, it's not over yet. Joining me in all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, straight out to investigative reporter Susan Hendricks, who's been on the case from the very beginning and is the author of Down the Hill, My Descendant to the Double Murder in Delphi.

What happened in that courtroom when the verdict was read? Judge Frank Gall gave them instructions, everyone in the courtroom, when the verdict was read, that no one can make any emotion. She says she knows that both sides worked very hard on this, the prosecution and the defense, and then reading it very quickly, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Then asked Nick McCullen, the prosecutor, do you and the defense, and then reading it very quickly. Guilty, guilty,

guilty, guilty. Then ask Nick McCullen, the prosecutor, do you want the jury pulled here? He said no. Then you go to Baldwin. Baldwin said yes, almost in a defiant manner. Well, you know, that's trial lawyering 101 to Philip Dubay, a high profile lawyer joining us out of the L.A. jurisdiction. He's a public defender there, which means he tries a lot of cases. Philip Dubé, you have to poll the jury, especially if you don't like the verdict, because you never know. And I've seen it happen. Thank goodness, not in one of my cases, but I've seen it happen where one of the jurors goes, that's not my verdict. And it's just like the courtroom will erupt in pandemonium. Polling is when each juror is asked individually in the courtroom as they're in the box, the jury box, one after the next.

Is this your, like, Mr. Dubé, juror number one, is this your verdict? Was this your verdict in the jury room? Is it still your verdict? Was this your verdict in the jury room? Is it still your verdict? They're typically asked those three or semblances of those three questions. And I have actually seen in real time, a lady juror start crying or lips started. And she said, it's not my verdict. So the judge said, okay, back in the jury deliberation room. About an hour later, they all came back and it was her verdict by then. And there's nothing wrong with that. You can have a wavering mind or undecided or hung up on some point.

But that's why you pull the jury, Dubay. Of course it is. And once in a while you do get one or two during that process who have what I call the unreasonable doubt. In other words, they kind of have buyer's remorse. They see everybody in the gallery anxiously awaiting whether or not this is your verdict. And now you're seeing truly the effect of your verdict. And before you deliver it, you need to make darn sure. Sometimes they got to go back into that jury room just to console that person, remind them you did not have a reasonable doubt before we voted in the jury room. So which is it? Do you have reasonable doubt or not? And if they don't, they can stand their ground. And you know what? That juror can hang it. And if it's hung, so be it. And then you can give them the Allen charge.

In Indiana, by the way, they don't do that dynamite or Allen charge. They abrogated it by judicial fiat several years ago. Instead, they just reread all the jury instructions because the court really has no way of knowing if they're hung due to intransigence or a misunderstanding of the law, or some other grounds. So they read everything, and they go back so that there's no coercive effect of the judge reading everything to them, specifically that Allen charge. And yes, I have seen it, and I've also seen it in the civil context as well. When Philip Dubé is describing an Allen charge, when we say a name like that, we're talking about a case. There was an individual named Allen. And in that case, the jury was out for a very long time and the judge gave them what I call dynamite. And that is the judge brings the jury in. All the lawyers are there. They put it

on the record and the judge says, it's your duty to go deliberate and reach a verdict. Now get back in there. That's what a dynamite charge is. So in this case, he's right. In Indiana, what the judge does is instead of dynamite, they reread the jury charges again, hint, hint, go deliberate. So I think it has the same effect, but long story short, this is what happened. Listen. It took two minutes from the time the jury walks into the courtroom and the verdict is announced. Richard Allen guilty on all charges. Allen was found guilty of the felony murder of Abby Williams and Libby German and guilty of knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull kept a firm hand on the courtroom and there were no

outbursts inside the courtroom, but outside on the street, shouts of guilty on all charges rang out in downtown Delphi. Back to Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. You're probably one of the few outsiders that weren't born in Delphi that knows where that Monon High Bridge is. It's really hard to find. You know, when I was driving there the last time, Susan, it was at night by the time I got there, dark. I missed the turn to Delphi. I had to backtrack, much less find that bridge is really in a very heavily wooded area. Tell me this, Susan.

Everybody's still under a gag order until sentencing, which is December 20, we think. But that means nobody can speak publicly. How is the families of the victims? Relieved. Absolutely relieved. They didn't know what to think as the days went on. Kelsey saying, thank goodness, because I texted her something. So, and it's a sigh of relief. They know it's not bringing the girls back, but boy, on that fourth day, there

were nerves. Joining me now, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder and star of a hit new podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, who has been on the case from the very beginning, has analyzed forensics, has spent many, many days in Delphi re-walking the Monon High Bridge. Cheryl, can you believe it? For just a moment, some people, not naming names, were concerned this was going to be hung. You know as well as I do, Nancy, the rule is for every day they spent, that's an hour of deliberation, this jury did their due diligence. There's no question about it. They even asked once again to see the video that Libby took and the interrogation. It was important to them to get it right on all four counts. And I believe they did. Now, Cheryl McCollum, when you say

they wanted to see the video and the interrogation, you know, Richard Allen gave over 60 confessions. The defense at trial was, yeah, he was temporarily insane. He had a psychotic break. Don't listen to any of that. But Cheryl McCollum, when you say the jury wanted to see the video and the interrogation, what video and what interrogation? That could be anything, Cheryl. Well, I think it was important to them to see the video that Libby took on the bridge and then to see the video where Richard Allen becomes angry. Again, for us, that was key to say they're leaning toward the prosecution here. They wanted to see, can this man that we have watched silently in court, nodding some, he laughed some, he would make gestures

toward his wife like, call me. He would stare at all of us. He would make gestures toward his wife, like, call me. He would stare at all of us. He locked eyes with everybody. They wanted to know. Let's watch this video again and see, do we see some rage? And they did. And it's important, Nancy, to say, okay, maybe they're comparing a lot of other things. But as far as the confession, even before he was incarcerated, he confessed to being there, not just on the trails, but on the bridge.

He told them what he was wearing and where he was parked. And then when they went back and went through every confession, they saw where he gave information only the killer would know about the white van. Susan Hendricks, let's follow up on what Cheryl just said, what the jury wanted to see at the end. And they had a lot of jury questions. They asked for a lot of things during deliberations, which some people take as a bad sign.

I do not take that as a bad sign. They wanted to see a video and an interrogation tape. Specifically, I think it was the girl's video where she somehow managed to get video of, quote, the bridge guy. And one of the interrogations, which one was it, Susan? It was on October 26th, 2022, with Detective Jerry Holman, where he confronts him. His home had already been searched. It wasn't the first one on October 13th. So his home is searched now. He's angry. Holman brings in his wife. They talk. She says, you never told me that you were at the bridge that day.

So it's the wife and him back and forth. Holman did an excellent job. He comes in. It gets confrontational. There's yelling. And Holman says, did you see the girls in those woods? And he's like, arrest me or send me home. He's like, gladly. And he cuffed him. And I believe they wanted to see that rage, just like Cheryl said, because the man in that courtroom is nothing like the guy in that video. The jurors needed to see that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, Susan Hendricks, you mentioned 10-26-22, and that was a very big day for investigators because officers searched his home, I believe 10-26. And they found as they called it a bridge guy starter kit. Let that sink in because the killer is the bridge guy. All right. He's saying down

the hill and the girls went down the hill and that's where they were murdered. A bridge guy starter kit, a Carhartt. I'm reading my notes. I want to make sure I got it right, a Carhartt jacket that the British guy was wearing, a Sig Sauer P, as in penny, 226, an unspent.40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge that was found in a Hope box in Allen's bedroom. They hit the jackpot. And it wasn't just one detective finding all of this. There were multiple detectives there watching each other. So it's not as if one sneaky detective went in there and planted a Carhartt jacket, a Sig Sauer P226 and a 40 caliber bullet. That did not happen. It was all there. No wonder Richard Allen was angry. He busted.

Yeah, and he thought he was going to get away with it because during that interrogation, he said, nothing you have is going to connect me to that scene. Nothing you have. He was confident. He got away with it. Wait, wait, wait. Susan Hendricks, can you say that very slowly one more time?

Nothing you have will connect me to those girls. Okay, right there. Bill Daly joining me, former FBI investigator, now expert in forensic photography, security expert. Bill, you come to me and say, I think you committed XYZ murder. I'm not going to say you can't prove it or you don't have enough evidence to convict me. No, I'm going to say, no, I didn't. I dare you. I double dog dare you to try and prove that that did not happen. I don't like it. I mean, the hair on the back of my neck goes up when a suspect says, well, you can't prove it. That's basically what he said, Bill.

Yeah, exactly. Certainly his obstinance to the facts of what they found certainly gives you pause. But you don't see this more important things here. I think the fact is that this case, this case went on as a cold case for close to five years. We talk about 2022. It's key that people remember is that it was only because of going through some old records, as they were digitizing records in this case, that one of the analysts, one of the investigators, find this call, this call from Allen himself, saying that he put himself at the, on the bridge that day. And it was really because of that call that this whole thing opened up and blossomed. So,

you know, we talked about 2022. You're absolutely correct, but I believe it was a volunteer Bill Daley, a volunteer named Kathy Shank, who was going through a lot of records and she being a local realized, I think it says something like Cheryl, didn't say a name on Allen Street. And she said there is no Allen Street. And she figured out that that tip was wonky, was reversed. Right. She saw the name Richard Allen Whiteman, and she knew from living there, Whiteman was the name of the street. And then when they cross-checked it,

Richard Allen lived on Whiteman. The jury of seven women and five men heard 17 days of testimony that included dozens of witnesses, disturbing jailhouse videos of Richard Allen and pictures of Abby and Libby as they were found at the crime scene. The jury deliberated for 19 hours, spread out over parts of four days to come up with a unanimous verdict. Richard Allen was found guilty of four counts, two counts of felony murder and two counts of knowingly and

intentionally killing Abby Williams and Libby German. Guilty on all counts. This case has been so divisive. I'm not sure why, but many people still insisting Richard Allen was framed. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that law enforcement on this case was so haphazard, so terrible, so sloppy, but yet they managed to frame Richard Allen and it's still being kept a secret. You have to pick one of those. They cannot coexist. That doesn't happen. Now, here's another person that insists he's innocent. Richard Allen's wife boldly stating this isn't over at all. That's from our friends at WTHR. Got a big question, a burning question. I didn't see it happen in the courtroom. Susan Hendricks or

Sheryl McCollum, did you ever see Richard Allen use his glasses, his reading glasses he had perched on top of his head? Did anybody see him actually use them? Once. I did not. One time. One time in how many weeks? Four weeks. He acted like he was using his glasses. Okay. The defense used a lot of smoke and mirrors. They said, hey, don't look at that bullet. That bullet proves nothing. Don't listen to these 61 confessions. He was in the middle of a psychotic break. He's not the bridge guy. I know he places himself at the scene of the crime at the time the murders were committed. I know he states voluntarily he was wearing the very same outfit as the bridge guy. I know it looks like him. I know it sounds like him, but it's not him. P.S. The bridge guy didn't commit the murder. Those were the defenses. But to Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills, author of Deal Breaker at drbethanymarshall.com. You can see her on Peacock. Now, Dr. Bethany, I have a problem with temporary insanity, temporary psychosis. When I watch you intermittently for four weeks of trial

and you act perfectly sane, as Cheryl McCollum was pointing out, you take notes, you speak to the lawyers around you. You look over when somebody walks in, you look at me dead in the face before your lawyers block me. You mouth things to your wife. Totally and completely coherent in court. How could he have been temporarily insane because he was in solitary, which Bethany, he had a tablet. It's like an iPad. He had a constant companion outside his door. He was fed routinely. He had many, many meetings with his lawyers and his wife, phone calls, FaceTime chats, you name it, Dr. Bethany, that was just solitary. So how do you go from being perfectly sane in the courtroom, not one blip in four weeks of trial, but yet your claim is temporary psychosis.

Well, Nancy, let's think about this. Earlier in the show, you talked about the evidence found in his house that he had the gun in one place, the jacket the other. He was preparing a bridge guy kit, but it was in essence a killer kit. And yet he had the good sense to dismantle it and put it in various parts of the house, and then to brag that they would never tie him to the killing. That's somebody who is a very coherent, consistent, cunning, and calculated. The psychologist at the jail said that he did not have flight of ideas. That means ideas that are not related to each other. And he did not have loose associations. So, and look at his affect in court. People who are psychotic usually have a strange affect,

meaning a strange facial appearance. We do not see that, as you pointed out, at all in court. You know, one thing that was argued or that was stated by the shrinks is that he was codependent on his wife. That's not a mental illness. It's not a mental illness. But it's interesting that when Kathy walks out of the court, she says it is not over. She's going to go down fighting for him. My impression is this is a mother-child relationship. And she does not care about those two little girls who were murdered.

So she's going to get her baby out of jail, come hell or high water. So yes, he was very dependent on her. And this clinical psychologist diagnosed him with something called passive dependent personality disorder. That means you have an overly dependent posture on others in order to avoid taking responsibility for your own life. Susan Hendricks, an investigative reporter on the case from the very beginning, is it true that Richard had over 700 phone calls from behind bars? He did, Nancy. What stood out to me was never mentioning his daughter. She was on the stand.

The mom, Kathy, wasn't there the only day when her daughter was on the stand. I don't think that's a relationship that is steady. I don't think the daughter is in Richard Allen's life or Kathy's. And seeing her on the stand, she answered three questions for the defense. But I found it interesting that it feels like that relationship is broken. Never does he mention, does my daughter still love me? Just his wife and mother in those phone calls. Cheryl McCollum, 700 plus phone calls, visits from lawyers, visits from your wife, a constant companion outside your door. That doesn't sound much like solitary confinement to me. Not solitary. He was never alone. He had access to lawyers, psychologists, other inmates, guards, phone calls with his wife and mom. And Nancy, I want to point out something about one confession.

When he tells law enforcement in chronological order what he did that day, that proves to me without a doubt, he was not suffering in any way with some type of psychosis. He was able to maintain what he did from start to finish. And somebody that is delusional or having other issues cannot do that. Libby should be 21. You know, the two of them laughing, the two of them joking, talking about movies, talking about boys, talking about what they would name their own babies. Their girls matter. For me, it all boils down to forensics.

Joining me, renowned professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. And for my purposes, a death investigator who has processed well over a thousand death scenes, suicides, accidents, homicide, natural causes. Actually, I think the number is much bigger than that. Joe Scott, what is the number? I have no way of measuring that, Nancy. It was a long career. I'm glad I'm here with you now, though. So, Joe Scott, what it boils down to, to me, is hard evidence, hard evidence. And what I find very, very probative is that the hard evidence disproved the defense theory that these two girls were killed elsewhere, their bodies brought back here,

the claims of Odinism, that the real killers worshipped the Norse gods, and this had been basically a cult killing with many people there, if it was ritualistic. But the evidence proves otherwise. Yeah, it does. And particularly, Nancy, this this is a bleeding, if you will. You know, the doctor, Dr. Core, I think is his the correct pronunciation of his name, he actually postulated that it took Libby up to five to 10 minutes to die. That blood was concentrated in that particular area, around about that area. So it's not like they were killed somewhere else. You had blood droplets that were leading from some obscure

location to that particular location. They were killed in that specific vicinity. You have this kind of saturated area that's there, Nancy. And this was, I think a lot of people are kind of, maybe they're taking comfort in it that this was quick. It was not. This was a lingering death. These girls would have had an awareness as they slipped off into unconsciousness. The biggest thing that's missing here, I think, is when we think about the type of weapon that was used.

You know, the forensic pathologist had kind that what they were dealing with was not a serrated weapon as had been put forward or another blade, but it actually turned out to be a box cutter. And, you know, Nancy, I thought a lot about this. I thought about all those nights when he's working as an assistant store manager or whatever in the hell he did for the drug store, he's having to stock those shelves in that store while nobody else is there. He had a lot of practice with a box cutter, slicing those boxes open, taking out each item, putting them on the shelf, then going on to the next box he would cut open. He would have specific, well, first off, he'd have access to that type of weapon. And secondly, he'd have proficiency with it, Nancy. Guys, the trial went on for 17

days. Listen. The trial had 17 days of testimony with the prosecution presenting 42 witnesses as evidence and Richard Allen's defense team calling 22 witnesses. Richard Allen did not testify. Neither did his wife, Kathy. The jury deliberated for 19 hours over parts of four days before reaching their unanimous verdict. Four weeks of trial. So to you, Cheryl McCollum, neither Richard Allen, which, of course, under the Fifth Amendment, don't tune up, Philip Dubé. Under the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, The defendant doesn't have to take the stand. But the jury can certainly speculate, wow, if he's telling the truth,

why not take the stand and tell us what happened? And interestingly, his wife never took the stand. It's all well and good for her to come out on the courthouse steps and go, it's not over yet. But why did she take the stand to state what happened that day to answer questions and submit herself to cross-examination, Cheryl? She knew she could. She knew if she was on the stand under oath that that jury would know there's no way you didn't recognize him. There's no way you didn't know that walk, that gait, that manner of dress. You knew that voice. We can recognize people from high school from a distance.

There's no way you didn't know him. And to prove it, when you found out he wasn't just on the trail, but was on the bridge, the first thing you said to him is, you never told me you were on the bridge. She had to have that feeling in her gut that he did this. Philip Dubé, if the wife had taken the stand and you were on the state's side, how would you have cross-examined her? The first thing I would have gone into is all the recorded jail calls. Isn't it a fact, ma'am, that you had multiple conversations with your husband while he was behind bars? Yes. In fact, I'd like to play what has been previously marked as states one in evidence. Do you remember this conversation where he's telling you that he did it and he'd like to apologize to the children's families?

Do you remember that conversation, ma'am? You didn't say anything at the time like that's not true. You're lying. Don't make this stuff up. Instead, you kind of went along, didn't you? It would have backfired on the defense and it would have been devastating. And also, Philip Dubé, she could have been cross-examined on no prior mental history, no prior psychotic breaks. As Cheryl said, what happened on the Valentine's Day immediately following? Remember, the date of the offense was Feb 13, Feb 14. The bodies were found on cross exam.

She would have been questioned about saying, you never told me you were on the bridge about where that gun is kept, why that bullet was kept in a different location, about any potential box cutters that she saw in the home, about the outfit he wore that day, any number of things. So Philip Dubé on the converse, if you put her on the stand, which they chose, the defense chose not to do, which I think was wise, what could she have offered that would have helped the defense, that would have outweighed the danger on cross-exam? During the course and scope of your marriage, Ms. Allen, did you ever know your husband to be on antipsychotics? Did you ever have to take him to a shrink and get him on Haldol?

And did a doctor, in fact, ever talk him out of taking these types of drugs? And absent those types of drugs, did you ever see him go through these types of fits of peak, through this type of delirium, through this type of delusional system? If you never saw that before and you're seeing it now, would you attribute it then to the Heldol that was given to him involuntarily while behind bars? Nothing further. Major Pat Cicero says there was a voluminous amount of blood at the crime scene, but most of it came from Libby German. Cicero says Libby was moving and basically walking in blood. Abby Williams died in the same spot where she was attacked.

And she may have been restrained or unconscious when her throat was slashed. Rich Allen left the courthouse in handcuffs and the safekeeping order that required Allen to be housed at the Wabash Valley Correctional Facility has not been lifted. Allen will probably remain there until he is sentenced on December 20th at 9 a.m. The judge has kept the gag order in effect

for all parties involved in the case until after Allen is sentenced. The law enforcement that so doggedly worked this case has been under fire from day one. The amount of evidence that they produced finding that bullet and a blanket of leaves covered in branches, sticks and twigs is amazing, but they found it. No one ever comments on the great work they did. But listen. We are going to continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if any other person had any involvement in these murders, in any way, that person or persons will be held accountable. Since the murders of Abby and Libby, 2,086 days ago,

the daily investigative team has worked tirelessly. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace we are going to continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if any other person had any involvement in these murders in any way that person or persons will be held accountable. Since the murders of Abby and Libby, 2,086 days ago, the daily investigative team has worked tirelessly. Cheryl McCollum, he was literally counting the days. That was Superintendent Doug Carter from Indiana State Police. At that time, it was 2086 days had passed. They never gave up. But they are assailed from every side.

I don't get it. I don't get it either. And when you start talking about law enforcement and they're saying things like they're incompetent and unprofessional and there's jury tampering, they're uneducated. They're corrupt. But then 12 strangers came together and unanimously said none of that was true. They understood. They understood the concessions. They understood what was found at the crime scene. They understood the unspent cartridge. They got it.

And overwhelmingly, I believe, that's what people should should take away that you can be as negative as you want hide behind a keyboard but when it came down to it they believed law enforcement and also I can say the same thing for the Carroll County prosecutors listen there are many dates in a lifetime that you're going to remember date your children are born the date you're married the date your children are born, the date you're married, the date you buy a first house, the date Abby and Libby went missing. One of those dates was last Friday, October 28, 2022. At that time, we had gathered evidence to formulate a PC that we submitted to the court, and the judge did find probable cause for an arrest of Richard Allen. He's been charged with two counts of murder for the murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. They, like law enforcement, never gave up on seeking the truth.

To Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative reporter and author on the Delphi murders joining us. So Richard Allen leaves the courthouse in handcuffs. When the verdict was announced, he was stony-faced, showed no emotion whatsoever. And he is headed to the Wabash County, the Wabash Valley CI, Correctional Institute. Tell me about what happens next. The gag order is in place at least until December 20. Exactly. In the sentencing hearing, Judge Gall said it could be one day, but she'll let it go, too, if needed, to have different witnesses on the stand. And I'm wondering, is that when we

will hear from Kathy and he will be sentenced on that day? But of course, there were so many questions. Is the gag order lifted? It was announced. No. You know, I'm very curious, Susan Hendricks, nothing compared to law enforcement. but Cheryl and I have been subjected to so much hate, venom, vile. I don't understand where all the hatred is coming from. I hope that has not been directed at you as well. I'm sure that it has. I try not to read the comments, but it comes at me, like you said. I think Superintendent Doug Carter is such a class act.

You're right. They got criticized. We do. I think Superintendent Doug Carter is such a class act. You're right. They got criticized. We do. I think the defense attorneys added fuel to the fire with that memorandum that came out in September where they mentioned the openness. But again, it was for full circle moment for me with Doug Carter. He hugged, embraced the prosecutor, Nick McClelland, after the fact. And I felt full circle.

They were both underestimated and criticized. You know, Philip Dubé, right now the defense is filing a motion for new trial. That's the first step where you go back to the same trial judge that tried the cases and you write, the defense writes, well, the judge did this wrong and that wrong and this wrong and that wrong. What judge in their right mind is going to say, yeah, I really screwed up. I effed this one up, but good. Yeah. You get a new trial. Okay. That's not happening, but that is the first step in the appellate procedure. After that, it goes on to appeal. And I can tell you right now, one of the things the defense is going to argue is that they third party guilt. They call it, I call it SOD. Some other dude did it. You know what? I think the judge did them a really big favor

by not allowing them to to argue that Thor worshipers, the Odinists, the pagans did it. They would have been laughed right out of that courthouse. She did them a huge favor yet. They're going to appeal that. She followed the law. As much as I sympathize with counsel and being deprived of a defense, under Indiana law, it's not enough that there was some cult, some organization out there, some organized religion that had the means, the motive, and opportunity to commit the crime. Absent pinpointing with some type of surgical precision who in the galaxy else could have done this, as opposed to some group in a vacuum in the abstract, the court was correct in not allowing that defense because the heart of third party- Well, wait just a minute, Philip Dubé. There have been plenty of UFO sightings.

I could very easily use that. Okay. You've read the inquiry, right? I could get all those photos and I can say, Hey, little green men from Mars did it. That's right up there with Odinus. The judge did them a huge favor. Can't they see that? Well, I don't know about that. If we're honest, one of the reasons why the judge excluded it is because the court did not want the jury to find what we call an unreasonable doubt. The crux of third party culprit is to identify the true culprit, not some green humanoid that's somewhere in the galaxy or a slender man. You know, there has to be some true, actual living human being in that area that you could point the blame to, as opposed to just some group, some organized

religion, some cult that performs human sacrifices in the abstract. So I think the court was accurate. No higher court will reverse that ruling. During 90 minutes of testimony and showing photos, Sergeant Page testified about the area where the bodies were found, a large area of leaves and rough ground still saturated with blood the day after the girls were found, as large area of leaves and rough ground still saturated with blood the day after the girls were found, as well as dry blood on a nearby tree trunk. In the courtroom, as the photos were being described, noises are heard throughout the courtroom. Sniffles, gasps, family members embracing, jurors squirming in their seats and uncomfortable. I believe in a God of justice and righteousness. Today, I believe that same God has provided us with justice for Abby and Libby. I earnestly thank those

who prayed for this moment in time. We now move forward through the Indiana criminal justice system, allowing the system to provide its due diligence and process in providing that justice, which is owed Abby and Libby, their families, and this community. You are hearing then Sheriff Toby Lisenby speaking out, you know, the other day in court, Abby and Libby's family gave me this. Okay. It says forever in our hearts. Okay. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, can you believe we finally got a verdict, a guilty verdict? Nancy, it is so difficult to believe over seven years later. And do you know what's happened while all this time has passed? Living in the Abbeys, classmates have reached milestones, gone to proms, graduated from school.

And these two little girls were deprived of that. All of that. All of that. Bill Daley, former FBI, what is it like to devote your heart and soul to a case and finally see it culminate in a guilty verdict? Yeah, it certainly brings a full circle. It brings relief to those people who would criticize, as we mentioned before. I think it also does a great support to law enforcement to say that over these many years, as they've maintained their steadfast focus on this, but they also maintain focus on chain of custody and evidence. And none of that seemed to be called into focus here. Maybe on appeal, but from my view, they did a

tremendous job and a tremendous job to the memories of these two innocent angels. Agree. Susan Hendricks, what do you think? We finally got a verdict. I'm thrilled for the families. I'm absolutely thrilled. And for law enforcement as well. They work diligently and they work together. They care about this family. They cared about Abby and Libby.

And I'm so happy that we got the resolution we did. To Cheryl McCollum, can you believe it? We're finally here. We have been reporting this, investigating on this for so long. It doesn't even seem real. Nancy, I appreciate you sending me to Delta, letting me get to know Libby's family, especially her sister Kelsey. And I'm going to tell you, when I knew you were fixing to be booted on the ground and you were going to walk into that courtroom,

here's all I know. It's not the amount of time that was spent. It's that time was spent. And I appreciate you, Nancy. Likewise, Cheryl. Likewise, Cheryl. You know, I've been wearing this ever since the family gave it to me forever in our hearts.

I wish we could go back in time and change everything and that the girls were still alive. You know, nobody really leaves the courtroom and celebrates. Nobody's uncorking champagne. Everybody leaves with a broken heart. Yes, they get justice of sorts. And it would be so much worse if they did not get justice. There will be a hole

in these families' hearts forever until they go to their graves and they are joined with Abby and Libby in heaven. You know, at the end of every program we remember an American hero. These are our heroes today. Abby and Libby, just 14 and 13. They solved this murder,

their own murders, and their memory will be with us forever. I wish it was them, but their memory will be with us forever. Our two heroes, Liberty German and Abby Williams. Thank you to our guests for being with us, but especially to you for being with us throughout this long saga. Finally, justice for Abby and Libby. Good night, friend. this is an iHeart podcast