Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Has Serial Killer Dennis Rader Struck Again?

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

When Dennis Rader, the serial killer dubbed BTK, was arrested in 2005, lots of documentation was found by the Wichita police: documentation in the form of his own writings, journals, and an unpublished book manuscript. The manuscript is thought to be a description of the murders BTK viewed as “successful. There were Polaroids of Rader dressed like his victims and in the “state” in which their murders occurs,… bound, partially buried, or hanging upside down.   The  Osage County Sheriff’s Office investigators have poured over Rader’s writings looking for links to local unsolved crimes, and the information inside led police to search the property where Rader and his family lived.  During their search of the property, investigators found  " trophies" from at least one woman. Investigators also found chains apparently used for bondage, along with C-clips.  C-clips can shorten chains or be used to secure a person’s legs or feet.  We know that a pantyhose ligature was found.  Other items found have not been described publicly.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tjuana Boulanger- Friend of Cynthia (Cindy) Dawn Kinney Dale Carson– High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself; Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaww  Dr. Bethany Marshall –  Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Twitter:@DrBethanyLive Sheriff Eddie Virden- Osage County Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder & Host of New Podcast: “Zone 7;” Twitter: @149Zone7 Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Nicole Partin – CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicoleparti See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A pair of pantyhose was found. Who cares? Who cares about a pair of discarded pantyhose? Well, I do, especially when it's tied in a ligature and it's found near the stomping grounds of one of the most prolific serial killers in the United States. At this time, will one or more victims be connected to BTK? Bind, Torture, Kill. That's right, it's not over yet. Now, many believe, including myself,

that two young ladies, one as young as 16 years old, have fallen prey to the former dog catcher turned serial killer Dennis Rader. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Don't know much about Dennis Rader, the church deacon, dog catcher, turned serial killer, so hungry for fame. His hands literally dripping with blood that he taunts police by contacting the media take a listen to btk in his own words did he in fact uh suffocate and die as a result of this not right away no sir he didn't what happened uh well after that i uh i did Mrs. Otero. I had never strangled anyone before,

so I really didn't know how much pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take. Was she also tied up there in the bedroom? Yes, both her hands and her feet were tied up. She was on the bed. Where were the children? Well, Josephine was on the bed and Junior was on the floor this time. So we're talking, first of all, about Joseph Otero. So you put the bag over his head and tied it, and he did not die right away.

Can you tell me what happened in regards to Joseph Otero? He moved over real quick, like, and I think tore a hole in the bag, and I could tell that he was having some problems there. But at that time, the whole family just went, they went panicked on me. So I worked pretty quick. You worked pretty quick. Well, I mean, I strangled Mrs. Otero and she went out or passed out. I thought she was dead.

She passed out. Then I strangled Josephine. She passed out. I thought she was dead. She passed out. Then I strangled Josephine. She passed out. I thought she was dead. Then I went over and put a bag on Junior's head. on our earth. Did you hear him? He is describing the murders of an entire family as casually as if he is frying some french fries in the deep fry. I got to work pretty quickly. Including children. Killing children. That's BTK. that's btk bind torture kill and it's not over yet take a listen to our friends at crime online when dennis raider was arrested in 2005 lots of documentation was found by the wichita police documentation in his own writing journals and an unpublished book manuscript the manuscript is thought to be a description of the murders btk viewed as successful there were polaroids of the victims and a raider dressed like his victims and in the state their murders occur bound partially buried or hanging

upside down the osage county sheriff's office investigators have poured over raiders writing looking for links to local unsolved crimes and the information inside led police to search the property where Rader and his family lived. During their search of the property, investigators found trophies from at least one woman. Investigators also found chains apparently used for bondage, along with C-clips. C-clips can shorten chains or be used to secure a person's legs or feet. We know that a pantyhose ligature was found. Other items found have not yet been described publicly. Joining me in all-star panel

to make sense of what we know right now, as I believe at least two more women will soon be identified as being murder victims of Dennis Rader. Before I go to the whole panel, I want to go to a special guest joining me right now, Sheriff Eddie Verdon of Sage County. Sheriff, Sheriff, thank you so much for being with us. I know there's a lot you can't tell me,

but could I clarify what I just heard from our friends at Crime Online because it was stated so matter-of-factly, so calmly. It was like a weather report. Yeah, fair to middling clouds out there. It might start raining tomorrow afternoon around 4 o'clock. And Rader dressed like his victims in the state their murders occurred. What? Could you explain, Sheriff, what is meant by BTK, Dennis Rader, would dress like his victims and in the, quote, state their murders occurred?

You know, the further and further you get into information, you know, the darker and darker side of things that you see, there's a chapter 13 that pretty pretty much sums up and part of that 13 you know dennis says no one will ever know uh the number of victims and there's probably some that he can't even remember, and he signs it off, see you in hell. Well, he'll be there. I hope I'm not. I hope I don't see him there, but he will definitely be there, but I noticed you sidestepped that question, Sheriff. Do you not want to divulge information that could touch on current investigations? I would absolutely share anything that I can possibly share. You know, I can tell you for sure our investigation is moving forward,

that we've obtained a lot of information, a lot of leads, and are still working every day possible. Of course, we've got current crimes going and and got a balance between the current cases and and the cold cases but we have have done thousands and thousands of hours on this case and you know what led us here was was good uh good leads good evidence that keep, you know, leading us further and further in. And while we were looking at things for our case, of course, we've come upon information that we believe is related to other cases. And as we develop that information, we reach out to law enforcement that are working those cases, pass that information on and, you know, hope that that's something that could lead them further in their investigations.

And hopefully we'll get to the answers. You know, for instance, the map that I'm sure you're aware of that he mailed to police back when he was tormenting him basically showed mileage from Wichita to different locations where he had committed crimes and in that map there there's one that made us really go into that because there's there's one at 55 miles, which is just above our county in Kansas. So I've got one really dedicated investigator that has devoted, I couldn't tell you how much time, but we wanted to figure out what 55 was because the information in our investigation leads us to believe from several different areas that our victim was placed in the stall of an old barn. And we got that from writings that he created.

But additionally, back when this crime occurred, one of the deputies received an anonymous call at night from a male who told them that they could find her in an old barn up along the Kansas-Oklahoma border. So when you find writings of his from 76 from a project he calls Bad Laundry Day and marks in chapter nine, which is a chapter in his book of the actual murders. And then you find additional information that cooperates that and then you do an interview with him and he tells you things that he can't know and the example that is my first interview was to just simply go see if a background information visit with him nothing about our crime didn't tell him any details of anything just told him i was looking at an old case from 76 wanted information you know he started that conversation off with i only killed the 10 that I confessed to.

So whatever you think I did, I didn't do, but if I can help you, I'd be glad to. So I said, well, you know, I just want to know about you. And we started at age three and, and went to where he's at now. He went through nine of the ten murders in details he went through every detail of his life from you know age three was a memory uh that he described that was was fairly graphic and uh torturing animals and burying him on to uh you know his boy scout time time, his college time, and then on to the military. He talked about bondage and prostitutes and stuff in Okinawa, Japan, returned to Wichita, ended up getting married, going through his jobs, and then some of the things that set him in motion to lead him to the 10 murders

that he confessed to. You know, Sheriff, I'm thinking today about two potential victims that I feel very strongly were killed by BTK, Cynthia Cindy Donahann Kenny and Shauna Beth Garber but I would put money on it Sheriff if you went to Okinawa that there would be missing people women that were murdered by BTK while he was there. The first question I asked guys you're hearing Sheriff Eddie Verdon out of Osage County, the elected sheriff who is still working BTK. You know, a lot of people don't get it. And it can be exhaustive when you get, as I did in the DA's office, 100 new cases a week. And I had older cases that were still not prosecuted that still needed work but every week you get

100 new cases and it's a lot and you're trying to do your best and older cases do get set back on the back burner it happens Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Cheryl McCollum joining me, the founder of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. She's a forensic expert and she's host of a hit series called Zone 7. You can find that at Crime Online or at all your podcast sites. Cheryl McCollum, I want to retouch and I'm leading up to the pantyhose ligature. I want to retouch on the fact that BTK, of course we'll have to have a shrink weigh in on this Dr. Bethany, would dress up like his victims in the state they were at the time of their murders.

That could be bound. That could be partially buried, even hanging upside down. Explain, Cheryl. It is so important that we understand what was happening then. And he is not only recreating, he has given us his MO. He's given us his signatures, just like he did with his moniker, BTK. He is telling us, this is what I did. This is the order that I did it in. This is the way that I did it. It is actually assisting law enforcement in not only understanding what these photographs mean. Okay, could I get you out of the weeds and back in the middle of the road?

Did he or did he not take photos of himself dressed up like the victims in the same positions they were when he killed them? That's a yes, no, Cheryl. That is a yes absolutely good lord you know what I'm a JD not a DDS but I believe I can pull a tooth with the right pliers to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us a renowned psychoanalyst out of LA you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com Dr. Bethany, did you hear what Sheriff Verdon just said? He goes to try to talk to Raider.

I hate to even call him BTK although that's his most famous moniker because he gave that name to himself. He went through all this drama deciding what should the media call me. How about world class a-hole number one, but that said did you hear Verdon

say, excuse me, Sherford, say that he goes to talk to Raider and he starts all the way back at his first memory? Talk about narcissism. Now again, don't listen to me. I don't know what I'm talking about when I throw out a word like narcissism, but I got a pretty good idea. It fits him. If somebody goes, how do you do and what's going on? You don't start with your first memory and go all the way through elementary and middle and Boy Scouts, blah, blah. But he did because it's all about him, Bethany. It's all about him. He is supremely interested in himself. And can you imagine the investigator's eyes glazing over? Wait a minute, Bethany, because my fingers are tingling. I want to put my hands around his neck so badly.

Sheriff, how did you sit there and not just punch him right in the mouth? Well, you know you've been here you your your goal is to solve your case and get that information and and we have to go through a lot of situations uh to get to the truth i shouldn't have even asked that because you might say something like yeah i really wanted to i'm not i withdraw that Back to Dr. Bethany. I don't want the sheriff to blurt out he really wanted to punch him right in the mouth. Okay, Dr. Bethany, what is that? He goes, okay, let's talk about all your victims. Instead, he starts talking about himself.

Well, I mean, obviously, it's what we call in a way autoerotic, meaning all the eroticism, the interest, the excitement is directed back against himself. And this is a perversion. It's not a well-known perversion. But this is why after he killed his victims, in whatever state of dress or undress or being bound or hanging upside down, he would recreate himself as the victim because he would create these, I think we would call them vignettes, sex murder vignettes with a mother and a dad and a child who would pose them. He would do all kinds of things, but then he would put himself in various positions within the vignette. So now he's the dad, now he's the child, now he's wearing women's pantyhose, now he's hanging dad now he's the child now he's wearing women's pantyhose now he's hanging upside down and remember nancy these crimes are they're so sexually motivated i'm looking at the

photos right now dill carson joining me high profile lawyer out of jacksonville and the reason i have him on sheriff vernon you'll appreciate this he's's a former Fed, an agent with the FBI, former cop Miami Dade, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, have you looked at these photos? I have. I'm looking at the one right now where

he looks like he's got on a woman's bra and his hair. I have to look upside down because he's hanging upside. He is actually hanging himself. Have you seen these Jackie? Upside down. He's got on I think a woman's bra and some kind of like a camisole

over it and. Yeah lingerie. Yeah lingerie and makeup. Makeup and he's gagged himself with something black and his hands I don't know how he took the picture and his feet are up on like a tree tied to the top of a tree and his hands are tied behind him i mean really this was done before the time of photograph editing that we can do on our

cameras today and iphones i mean it took some skill and energy to do that, which indicates the level of intensity that he placed in this behavior. I mean, it's pretty striking. And the more complex it is, and of course, you all know that. There he is in women's hose, all tied up with his face covered. Right. And the more complex it is, the more ritualized it is, the longer he's been engaged in that behavior, which argues that there are plenty more victims than what we know of today. You know what? And everybody, please jump in, especially you, Sheriff Vernon, with me right now to Juana Bollinger, a very dear friend of the then teen girl that I believe was one of BTK's victims. He has not

been formally charged and that's what we're going to talk about once I can get off these photos I'm looking at. Tawana, when you think about the mockery that he has made of these victims by dressing up in their clothes or like them and restaging their horrible deaths that he inflicted and taking pictures of himself. He's basically mocking what he did to the victims. And you think of your little friend, Cindy? It's just sick, Nancy, to think that he's just an evil man nancy i don't understand what why is he still alive what did i miss sheriff verdon why didn't he get the death penalty i'll tell you the answer to that is the only 10 murders that he eventually confessed to, whereas during the time period, Kansas did not have the death penalty.

Well, you've got it now, don't you? reveal things that he did outside of Wichita because if that came out then the surrounding states that had similar crimes would look at him and and put it together and those states did have the death penalty I've got recordings of him talking to reporters and even describing to them in one of the recent serial killing cases that he was visiting with a reporter about, that you've got to watch those Western states because they've got the death penalty. Some of them still have hanging on the book. Hanging is too good for him. Guys, take a listen to our cut A, our friend is KWCH. The house that BTK once called home was torn down in 2007, and it was an empty lot. But investigators came into this lot and dug up this sidewalk looking for evidence of an old cold case. A lot that was empty until Tuesday morning when investigators from Oklahoma moved onto the property,

pulling up sidewalks and digging. Digging for evidence, according to Osage County, Oklahoma Sheriff's Office, for cold cases involving murders and missing persons, possibly connected to Dennis Rader. And there's a reason they're doing that. Listen to our Cut 48. This is my friend now, now Carrie Rawson BTK's daughter and don't hold it against her what her father did he was a devil straight from hell to live with and it's amazing to me she and her mother lived through life with BTK don't hold it against her listen to what she says that this is why this is so important the pantyhose listen the first um day after or the first evening even after my father was arrested

the fbi called us and said they had found evidence under our floorboards so he had driver's license up his um several of his victims he had jewelry that he had taken from their homes after he murdered them um those were his like most prized possessions and he had taken from their homes after he murdered them. Those were his most prized possessions, and he had carved out of underneath the floorboards a place for this evidence in our hallway where we wrote out tornadoes, and that had been going on since the 70s. And listen to this.

Not only did he keep souvenirs off the women, the men, the children that he murdered, then he'd dress up like them and pose for selfies that he could look back on over and over and over. He kept kill kits, much like Israel Keys, another serial killer. Let's now cut 49. He had hit kits, and so we're seeing with Rex Heuermann, like, handcuffs. My father had, like, fanny packs with,, like handcuffs. My father had like fanny packs

with like handcuffs and rope, ties, like bondage gear, bandanas. In hindsight, I actually did see my father's hit kit from the 85 murder down the street. It was a bowling bag. It was like he didn't bowl. And so that was weird in hindsight. But at the time, my dad just had a lot

of weird oddity bags around. Two special guests joining us along with Tawana Bollinger friend of Cindy McKinney Sheriff Eddie Verdon elected sheriff out of Osage County Sheriff you had a really interesting story about a conversation you had about him storing these kill kits? You know, I've had a lot of very disturbing conversations with him. But what led us to that particular spot, you know, we were lucky enough to obtain some of the information from Wichita after my first initial background visit with him. And, you know, in that visit, we were just trying to see if he had any ties to the area

to see if he was a suspect. And, of course, you know, the reason for that, she worked at a laundromat and there was a bank being built right across the street. And, you know, at that time, ADT had 80% of all the commercial alarms in the United States so knowing from from previously going through this cold case when when I learned that he was an ADT installer I wondered could he have been participating in the alarm system going in that bank across the street spotted her and there. And then as I did more digging and learned that he was at the Boy Scouts, Pawhuska is where the Boy Scouts started.

We have museums, you know, more dig and reveal the troops from Wichita in the time he was in. The Scouts himself were in Pawhuska, and their camp was up along the Oklahoma-Kansas border and north of Sudan. So all those were in, but I cut him off after learning how familiar he told me about all the towns north of us. He's very familiar with the Flint Hills and things that a lot of the locals don't even know. So when I go talk to him, I'm not trying to, I give him no information about my case other than I'm looking at an old case from 76. And when I stopped the interview, because I know I'm going to have to dig further, he,

one of the things he said was, would you like to know what one of my favorite fantasies was that I never got to do? And I said, sure, go ahead. And he said, I always wanted to kidnap a girl from a laundromat. And, of course, you know how shocking that was because the odds of him saying that would would be a million to one if even not higher and i of course came back at him trying not to show any emotion and said you know you just told me about you know nine murders and going into the tenth where you ambushed people in their houses you told me about attempting to kidnap a bank clerk and that didn't go well. And then you moved to ambushing people in their houses and tricking them into cooperating and

then doing what you did. So in this fantasy, you never got to do, how would you have done it? And he said, I would have watched the laundromat till she was in there alone. I'd approached her with one of my rouges. I would have had her help me get my stuff from my car. And when I got her to my car, I would have her and nobody would see or hear anything. And you've got a lot of experience, a lot of people on here. You know, right then and there, you know, he moved to the top of the list, of course. And so we went to Wichita. And then going through the documentations that they collected in the search warrant, we find in 1976, which is when our girl went missing, he's got a project called Bad Wash Day.

And he has that marked for Chapter 9, and in one he's got that he was going to release information on it. He's actually got two murders listed, one that he was going to release information in April and one possibly in November. The one in November is still a cold case that's open of a girl named Sherry Baker out of Wichita. And even in his interview, he tried to confess to that

and gave details that he said the manner of which she was killed and what she was killed with, and that wasn't in the paper. But he did not go on with the story. And, you know, that led us to that. But besides all that information, then, of course, you know, we were looking for anything possible. So we were able to track down people that, you know, were former club members, different people that he's had relationships through the years,

wrote letters to. We obtained a copy of a letter that I believe he had written in 2008. And in that 2008 letter, he had told them that he had some trophies and driver's license hid under the concrete blocks in his storage building behind his house. And the police had never found those. He described it as he had buried some of them in a jar. So, of course, when you read that, you're thinking, oh, my gosh, you you know we know he released driver's license on other victims we know that he has notations in the book that he was writing that he was going to release

more in april and more in november so when when we got that information we went straight to park city got with park city police department and we went to the location, you know, to see if there was anything there as he described. And when we got there, there was a six-foot sidewalk that had been put right over the top of where he described he buried those items. So on that first attempt, we dug some around the edges of that concrete, and that's when we located the pantyhose that you were talking about earlier. But in order to get to the other stuff, we would have to have the concrete removed. So, of course, we took that information, went to KBI, worked with Park City, and it came together last week for them to come out, saw, cut that, remove that concrete.

Because, you know, when you've got that kind of information, you've got to follow through. And then, of course, in the dig, we found several items and broken glass the problem is we don't know if anyone involved that got that letter or got information out of that had been there between 2008 and when we finally dug there so you know the question is you know he he definitely says in that there was victim's license along with other trophies you know, if somebody had already got some of that stuff prior. But also they had removed, you know, probably six inches of dirt or so in that area to prepare that site for the concrete. So we don't know if that could happen, but we definitely found items that match the letter and they were definitely what were the items i can't release all the items i understand guys you may have noticed a paul went

over the whole panel when the revelation came out from raider's own mouth that he dreamed about laundromats. Take a listen to our Cut 38 NBC. Oklahoma's Osage County Sheriff's Office recently unearthed new evidence at the serial killer's former home. A pair of pantyhose that are tied in a knot. Investigators believe Rader used those pantyhose to bind a victim's hands or feet together. Perhaps, they say, Cynthia Kinney, a 16-year-old who was last seen at a laundromat in Pawhuska, Oklahoma in 1976. Rader, writing in a journal entry around the same time that laundromats were a good place to watch victims

and dream. We read from cover to cover his journals and he left all kinds of clues in there. I absolutely believe they were probably on a victim and he took them after after he killed him he took them and he kept them as as a reminder. To Nicole Parton joining us CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Nicole from where did Cindy go missing? She went missing from the laundromat that was the last known place where she was she went missing from the laundromat that was the last known place where she was she went missing from the laundromat there in poshaga in kentucky and here we have this reference where he's saying in his journal i would watch the nearby laundromat for the victim even references the journal entry as bad wash day. He says that he was watching the

brunette, which Cindy was, and he goes on in detail as to how he watched them and then goes back to how he would dress himself. He has on a pair of women's underwear after watching a girl or lady, he would go into the bathroom, relieve himself with masturbation thoughts. Also in the journal, he references the laundromat day and says, see another entry I've made. And that entry in his journal was the original reward poster upon Cindy's disappearance. Guys, take a listen now to our friends in Cut 46 at the Today Show. The case has repeatedly been the subject of documentaries. Just look like a normal guy. Including a show Sheriff Verdon happened to see, prompting him to visit Rader in prison.

That's when the sheriff says unexpectedly, BTK may have tipped his hand on Kenny, last seen at a laundromat. He said, well, you know, there was my favorite fantasy. Would you want to hear what it was? And I said, sure, why not? And he looked me in the eye and he said, I always wanted to kidnap a girl from a laundromat. Sheriff Verdon, did he look you right in the eye when he said that? Oh, absolutely.

You know, Nancy, and he has given me so much more. You know, he, before he told me the laundromat thing, after we shut him down, because, you know, he's very controlling. He likes to control the situation. We were shutting it down. He was throwing stuff at us, I believe. And, you know, the first thing he said when we shut it down was, I was in Oklahoma a lot in 1990. And I said, really, what were you doing? And he said, well, I'd lost my job at ADT, and I went to work for the United States Census. I started in Wichita, but got promoted to regional supervisor. And in 1990, I was all over Kansas and Oklahoma.

And I said, that's terrifying. And it is. To Tawana Bollinger, a friend of Cindy Kinney, who goes missing, never seen again, age 16, at that laundromat. When you hear BTK dropping all these hints, this innuendo, knowing so much about Cindy's disappearance, how does that make you feel? You know, I'm hearing a lot of things for the first time today. How does that make you feel? girl cindy was the most beautiful girl you'd ever meet she never met a stranger it's just i'm in shock nancy crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Joining me right now is a renowned medical examiner, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Joining us out of Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, never a lack of business there for Dr. Crowns. Lecturer at University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School has literally conducted thousands of autopsies. Dr. Crowns, thank you for taking your time to be with us today. It's hard to believe that there are even more victims of Dennis Rader BTK, if the bodies, if the remains, that is, were found now, would you be able to identify them as being, for instance, Cindy Kinney? So at this point, most of his victims have been dead over 30 years. All you're looking for is skeletal remains. But from those skeletal remains, there is still a possibility of identifying them through dental records.

And if there is any tissue left or a bone marrow left, you could get a sample to do DNA testing. So there is a possibility of still identifying them even after all this time. It's very disturbing that he referred to his murders as, quote, projects. I remember I would have 4-H projects all the way through middle school and high school. I'd work on them lovingly. He called his murders projects. Take a listen to our cut 53 from news nation when we started digging through the files we uh we located those polaroids that he had taken himself and there was a series of nine

photos that he took on one of his convicted uh cases out of wichita and in the series of nine, it is written that he is wearing articles from three different projects, one of them of which was the Davis murder there in Wichita. Not only that, do these photos and other evidence connect him to another unsolved case of Shauna Beth Garber. Listen to our friends at the Today Show in Cup 45. Oklahoma's Osage County Sheriff Eddie Verdon also suspects in 1990, Rader may have killed 22-year-old Shauna Beth Garber. Garber's body was found in Missouri in an area where Rader's own daughter remembers fishing with her father. And isn't it true, Cheryl McCollum, that the 22-year-old Shauna Beth was found severely decomposed, dumped in a Missouri home that had been abandoned, bound at the ankles. Autopsy revealed she had been raped, restrained with different types of bindings two months before she was found.

And for 31 years, she was known as Grace Doe, but Othram Labs identify her as Shauna Beth Garber. Correct. And Nancy, let me brag on the sheriff a moment. When he first went on TV and showed that ligature that would only fit a wrist or an ankle, I thought that was the most brilliant thing I've seen in a long time because what he did was two things simultaneously.

One, he spoke directly to Dennis Rager. Look what I found. You thought you hit it. You thought this was going to be your trophy that you got to keep forever, but we found it. And the second thing he did, he showed law enforcement across this country, look what we have, look how it's tied, because that knot is going to be key. You can take DNA completely out of this thing. Where it was cut, how it was tied,

where it came from the pantyhose, if it was near the toe, the leg, or the pantyhose if it was near the toe the legs or the panty part is going to be critical and i thought that was absolutely genius she's right sheriff verdon do you believe that you are close to making a case for shauna i've actually got new information that hasn't been released and we're confirming it now but it but it's probably going to move her case a lot closer, if not put it over the line, in my opinion. So I'll give you the first bit of that, and we're still confirming. So in his notebook that he's got like his whole timeline with a bunch of projects and stuff on 10 26 of 90 he's got a notation of one and two under the star camberie and then on 10 27 the next day he has moss lake project so we we didn't get to shonda

by by picking out a random thing and going we followed evidence that we found in different things that took us to her and and in addition to that as as we dug deeper uh we actually we actually were were really trying to figure out what the under the star one and two cambery was so of course we know he was in the Scouts. His son was in the Scouts at that time. And we have been doing extensive research. And, you know, we knew that was going to be Boy Scout related. And just trying to find some information, I've called all the way to Utah to the headquarters. Are you saying Scout Jamboree? Under the Star, Camboree.

So this is really helpful in Shonda's case. So we've reached out to the Boy Scout troop, and we've actually, the other night, ran down a gentleman I'm not going to reveal, but was in the scouts with him. River in Missouri, which would be, you know, approximately 30, 40 minutes to an hour from where her body was found, that from the recollection, it would have been a Friday, Saturday, and leave Sunday. And then in following up with that campground, we learned that it's site one and two. And this is all still brand new.

And we are digging, you know, right now trying to determine. But, Nancy, how big is that if we can now put Dennis Rader in Missouri and at that location close to where her body was with this project named a series of nine photographs that he did on 11-1. So if you go with this project, he committed it on the 27th, and he took a series of photographs, and he made a special map that he sent to the police specifically showing this location, and on that map noting a place for the body to be put in the woods and our body was in the woods and if you put the 160 at Joplin which is what the map is without a doubt and the map shows southeast corner and it actually shows out of the state of Kansas but if you put that 160 where he put that notation of the body to be placed, it is spot on. And again, we provided information. McDonnell County worked with them.

We actually went up with them to do an interview, provided them a bunch of information. I actually helped them prepare an arrest affidavit in this case. And they did the interview. We we listened and i had one of my people in the interview room with them but you know mcdonald county said he was he was fairly honest with them they felt but while they were doing that interview and just one example the investigator asked him did you ever wrap anything around the victim's head? And he said no. And I had provided them photographs of him, the nine pictures where he's got something around his head.

So they said, why did you have this around your head? And he said, well, that was to hide my identity. But I didn't do that to victims during the interview i sent that investigator a photograph of victims that he's convicted for with stuff wrapped around their head i mean i i can document at least five to six lies that he told them and again i wasn't in the room but i listened to all this and and again i've heard them say they couldn't place him in the area but guess what nancy we've now possibly placed him not just in the area but right in the area where her body was found. How do you go to sleep at night with this dancing through your brain? Well, let me tell you, my wife came in at 1.30 and said,

you've got to get to sleep. You're going to kill yourself. But, you know, Nancy, I'm telling you, with your experience, if you've seen, I mean, we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg in what I've looked. I've been eight months going through, collecting, following up on, and the information, if you looked at it, you would be absolutely shocked. And you would know. I mean, I had a meeting and put together a slide and I had the OSBI from Oklahoma. I had KBI from Kansas. I had numerous sheriffs from Oklahoma. I had KBI from Kansas. I had numerous sheriffs from Kansas.

I had the U.S. Attorney's Office here, and I had the Oklahoma State Attorney General's Office here. We figured the presentation we put together would last about two hours. We felt like it was very compelling and would show everyone, you know, the need for us to form some type of a task force and really dedicate the time that needed to be done on this case. That meeting ended up going, the majority of everyone stayed for at least eight hours some up to 10 hours because of the significance of just the tip of the iceberg and and if you look at the things i mean we we went through his map james james is an incredible person with more dedication than I can say. And again, I'm dealing with day to day and I've kept James focused on this. And he's in there going through stuff. He's made maps where and, you know, we have no idea how much other law enforcement has done because, you know, we've only been accessing what we can access when we can get it and we made a map

of missing people or unsolved cases just off of the map that dennis provided and then as we did as we did that then we looked at at you know what the victims were wearing, their descriptions, and compared them. He has got a ton of drawings and notations and letters and poems and just unbelievable things. But going through that, we found, you know, not that that that matched his map but but but other items that particularly show the description of the victim down to colors of their shirts matching hair color hairstyles i mean it is it's it's unbelievable and uh you know this thing is uh it is really really uh amazed me of of and disappointed me you know i was hoping we'd find an adt schedule and uh be able to to rule him in and out But we got one letter that says we don't have any records.

I mean, it goes on and on and on. But, you know, it's just, you know, like there's an Oklahoma. I was telling you that he talked about his census time. And in his timeline, it's the busiest time of his life, which he told me in person, you know, he couldn't be himself at home because he had to be the church deacon and the dad and the husband

and keep his role as that. But then when he was out on the road, he got to be BTK and have his hotel parties he described breaking and entering prowling window peeping what do you mean by hotel parties what hotel parties okay so some of the pictures that he made he would again dress up you know in in women's clothing wigs masks, masks, and bondage, and take his own pictures inside those hotels. Like the one you showed where he was hanging in the tree.

Yes. We have located the spot. We've been with that sheriff's department. department we've located a a a document that he made describing that day everything he took what he did when he created that and that's a special area of his and that's an area that will be searched uh you know in the near future uh one example craziest thing i ever heard i i actually brought that up to him and you know what his response was what he actually said this he said he said well well if you find something there that that won't mean anything because every killer used that spot. Unbelievable. And me and me and one of the guys that was with me after that conversation, you know, we were going back and I mean, it's just unbelievable. It's like, you know, we're, we're picturing the John Wick assassin hotel, you know,

says you would go to that spot and you'd trip over other killers, you know, where you were trying to get your time in there. I mean, it's just insane. And, you know, at that location, we haven't released it. But in a silo, we found a button to a blouse and the middle part had been torn off. So a shirt had been ripped open or torn, which would cause that to break off and there is no reason that we can think of for to be in that location why why a female would be inside of a silo and have something occurred in a grain silo that would cause her button to be ripped off of her shirt so you know we we've got so many things that, but you can imagine nobody in law enforcement wants to touch BTK now. You know, when I go in to talk to a sheriff, they, you know, a lot of times run plum backwards

because they don't want anything to do with that because of the baggage that comes along with this type of investigation. But my victim needs justice and her family needs answers and and i met with her parents uh years ago and i i'd done other things on this case and i promised them if i got anything i would follow it to the end of the earth to get those answers i don't want to work mcdonald those answers. I don't want to work McDonald's kind of things. I don't want to work other things. I just want to find my girl. But you know how these cases are.

It's, again, a domino effect. If I can get anything that's going to cause a chain of events that will possibly reveal the location of my victim and get my case closed and my answers. You know, Sheriff, I'm just so, so inspired that you're, you call these people the same thing I called my people, my victims. And, you know, I've never heard anybody else say that in my life beside me. When you say my victim, I mean, that tells me how much this means to you. Oh, it does.

And believe me, I won't stop. I'll push as long and far as I can. And, you know, I'm quite certain at this point I'll probably make a lot of other law enforcement upset, you know. But again, you've got to. And that's why, you know, we didn't release anything to me. The first time I talked to him, he called a reporter out of New York, and they called me, and I tried to talk to him, you know, hey, you know, this is just routine. There might not be anything here.

You know, I don't want to open wounds. But, of course, you know, the story ran and caught some buzz off that but then died down, and we course had continued you know we we had done uh two prior digs at two different locations one in kansas and we're lucky to to not catch any attention on those and uh you know because it makes it easier to move around a lot of people when they see the media buzz they don't want to talk to you because they're afraid you know they're going to walk out to get their mail there's going to be 15 different media outlets chasing around to ask some questions you know when when you run up and you know this because you've been there you know you you take a

little old couple that's been through uh 40 some years of misery not knowing where their baby is details wondering you know and they go to get their mail and somebody comes running up and says, how do you feel? Nancy, you know how they feel. It's terrible. You know, you don't even, I mean, that's, of course, that's the world we live in today, you know, and that's why I try to push people, you know, to respect those families. And Carrie, Carrie is a phenomenal, phenomenal person.

She is. Carrie is a true victim, just as she's as much of a victim as as the family members of the murdered people. And not just her, but her whole family you know i've been fortunate enough to to to to visit with one other family member and and i can tell you the pain and the hurt and the things they lived with i mean can you imagine you know you you you have nothing to do with it no knowledge didn't didn't didn't have anything but anytime go anywhere, you're not you. You're BTK's brother or you're BTK's daughter or you're BTK's son or you're BTK's wife. You know, if BTK's grandkids, you know, are in school and people find out,

what do those other kids do? And then if they have friends and they say, hey, can I go over and stay the night there? What is half the world's parents going to say? You see what I'm saying? I mean, people need to realize that the suspects' families have been through hell and the embarrassment and the shame attached to it. Much less, we know the guy's a serial killer. How do you think he treated them growing up?

I mean, Carrie told me how awful he was to live with. Can you even imagine? Oh, absolutely. But it's harder on Carrie and the family than it is on the victim's families because you know when the victim's family goes somewhere people have compassion because of of what they went through but but when when the suspect's family goes places you know it's a whole different deal they're they're they're they're shunned they're talked about they're whispered about and and they're carrying a harder burden people just really need to set back i don't know i think the victim's family might disagree with you because at least

they're all alive so that's a toss-up who was you know everybody suffered everybody has suffered don't don't get me wrong i'm not downplaying that but i'm saying victims family have got compassion where where somebody like carrie you know carrie has told me she plans on advocating for victims as many years as dennis tormented society just trying to clear their name and and do good where somebody did bad you know and you've got to admire somebody that's done that i can tell you she has been a tremendous asset to us. And if you go back and look at some of her early releases, when this information broke, when Dennis put it out, you know, I mean, she was like, I don't believe he did any of this. And then, you know, through time, we ended up with her actually getting to see some of the information we got. And, you know, she left here, I believe, in a better position personally. But not only that, she revealed a lot of really, really good information because some of the

notations, when you're looking at them as a person not knowing everything, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. But if you go over those items with her, she can bring them to life and fill in the gaps and make it make perfect sense. She's the only eye witness. So, you know, it's tremendous. And, you know, I would love to to to bring some experts in because, you know, the the the more recognition that they have, the more credibility they have, the more the more traction this is going to get that is going to get the the investigation done that needs to be done you know i don't know if you're aware of this or not but dennis talked for 30 hours basically and loggered

up and then never never talked again so the items collected in these search warrants, he was never interviewed item to item. And I've had an opportunity to go through some of these items with him that he hadn't seen since his arrest. And you can imagine how that was. But trying to get questions, you know, I mean, it's uh uh you know there's things he can't explain off at all you know he's got kidnappings marked not murders but kidnapping marked in in a certain time period and i have found letters from people claiming to be victims that match his timeline. And we're in the process of running them down. Sheriff Verdon, I just pray that you and your people maintain the strength,

physically, mentally, and emotionally, to stay on BTK because I can only imagine what it feels like not to know what happened to your daughter or your mother or your sister. I mean, my fiance was murdered. I know what happened and I know who did it and justice was murdered. I know what happened. And I know who did it. And justice was sought. But I cannot imagine going through life wondering, and you are the person to give those families the answers. We pray for justice. God bless you, Sheriff. Goodbye, friend.