Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEALTH-BOSS SHOOTING: IVY LEAGUE GRAD TURNED ALLEGED “ASSASSIN” CHARGED WITH MURDER 

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Just hours after Luigi Mangione was taken into custody in Pennsylvania, he faced a murder charge. The second-degree murder charge joined charges of forgery, carrying firearms without a license, tampering with records or identification, possessing instruments of crime, and providing false identification to law enforcement authorities. The initial charges were local to Pennsylvania. However, the NYPD also charged Mangione with possession of a loaded firearm, possession of a forged instrument, and criminal possession of a weapon. Mangione will be extradited to New York, but that transfer likely will not happen for several days. Mangione was arrested while sitting in the back of an Altoona McDonald's. He was wearing a mask, eating breakfast, and looking at his laptop when an employee suspected he was the subject of a manhunt out of New York. Altoona police arrived, and Mangione began to shake when officers asked him to lower his mask and confirm if he had been in New York recently. A search of Mangione revealed a ghost gun, a silencer, and multiple fake IDs. Officers arrested the 26-year-old on several charges but not for the murder of Brian Thomas. Mangione faces charges of forgery, carrying a firearm without a license, tampering with records or identification, possession of instruments of crime, and providing false identification to law enforcement. When asked if he needed a public defender, Mangione replied that he would "answer that at a future date.  JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:  Jason Oshins  - NY Defense Attorney Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); X: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in “Paris in Love” on Peacock; BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away”  Tara Malek – Boise, ID, Attorney & Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic Germania Rodriguez  – Chief US Reporter at Daily Mail (DailyMail has a podcast out now called “The Trial of Diddy”} Dave Mack  - Crime Online Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. An Ivy League grad turned assassin, now charged with murder. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Breaking, a person of interest identified in the UnitedHealthcare CEO shooting. A man taken into custody in Pennsylvania.

Straight out to Chief of Detectives NYPD, Joe Kinney. A man was taken into custody today at Altoona, Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. He's a male, 26 years old. He was born and raised in Maryland. We know he has ties to San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii. He has no prior arrest history in New York. This case was brought to a successful conclusion based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units, including the

Intelligence and Counterterrorism Bureau, our federal partners at the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course, members of the Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. Repeat, for those of you just joining us, bombshell. An arrest has been made in the so-called health boss murder of all people. An Ivy League grad turned assassin born with a silver spoon in his mouth right now in isolation and a Pennsylvania CI Correctional Institute at Huntington. What happened? How did a guy with everything turn into a cold-blooded assassin? Joining me in all-star panel straight out to Hermania Rodriguez, joining us, chief U.S. reporter with DailyMail.com and star of the podcast, The Trial of Diddy. Hermania, tell me about the arrest.

Right. So finally, after a five day manhunt, police found the suspect, Luigi Mandiano, at a McDonald's in Pennsylvania. Actually, police now say that he had been in the state moving back and forth between Pittsburgh and other places for days. It appears that an employee at McDonald's called police after someone recognized him and said he was acting suspicious. Police said yesterday that when they approached him, he gave the same fake ID from New Jersey that he had given to check into the hostel in New York.

Now, when police asked him if he had recently been to New York, that's when he started shaking and became very nervous. And that's when he was arrested. And now he's been now charged with the murder of Brian Thompson. Take a listen to Tyler Fry. Now, this is a rookie police officer, was formerly with the Sheriff's Department. Listen. Whenever we got on scene there, we were able to pretty much find where he was at in the restaurant. And as soon as he pulled, he was wearing a blue medical mask. As soon as we pulled that down, or we asked him to pull it down,

me and my partner and I recognized him immediately. We didn't even think twice about it. We knew that was our guy. But he was very cooperative with us, didn't really give us too many issues. Once we found out his identity, we took it from there. Tyler Fry being lauded today in making the arrest. That's where our friends at 11 Alive 2, Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter who's been on the case from the very beginning. Dave Mack, there have been conflicting

reports that a McDonald's employee ID him or was it an elderly patron who identified Mangione, Luigi Mangione, and that patron then alerted an employee and the employee called 911. How did it go down, Mac? That is exactly how it happened, Nancy. An elderly couple looking over noticed him. He was sitting in the very back of the restaurant. He's got his little blue mask up. He's sitting there eating breakfast, looking at his laptop.

But an elderly man spots him back there and goes to an employee and says, I think that's the guy. So the employee calls and the police were right there. Now, I've heard that he was acting suspiciously to Cheryl McCollum, joining me, forensic expert and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, star of hit podcast Zone 7. Cheryl, you have to have a reason to detain. OK, not arrest, but to detain. It's an age old, similar case, U.S. versus Terry. Okay. To stop someone just to ask for ID. So to say he was acting suspiciously, the guy's in the back booth at a McDonald's on his laptop. I don't know what is suspicious about that. I'll tell you what I think, Cheryl. I think they identified him. The patron identified

him and go, hey, that's the guy I'm seeing on TV that shot down the CEO and the employee call 9-1-1. I don't know what's suspicious about that, but a police officer has the right based on intuition to ask you for ID. That is okay. They were called there because two people, not one, thought, hey, that looks like the guy. And if he's eating breakfast, he's having to move that mask a little bit to take a bite. Once they approach him, law enforcement says, hey, we were called here. Let me just go ahead and see your ID. The ID that he gives them is the same fake New Jersey ID that he gave to the hostel. Well, at that point, they're like, this is the guy. We also recognize him from the photograph that NYPD put out. And I just want to say that is absolutely fantastic police work that

they put his face out so fast that somebody in Pennsylvania is going to recognize him. Joining you right now, high profile lawyer, defense attorney Jason Oceans, who practices in this jurisdiction. Jason Oceans, don't you just hate it as a defense attorney when the cops do it by the book? There's really nothing for you to complain about. And can't you just see it? After my dad retired from the railroad, a group of his friends, he would occasionally go, very rarely, but they would get together at McDonald's. Okay. They're not paying $5 for a cup of coffee at Starbucks. And they would be there every day. Many of them, military vets like my father. And can't you just see people that go to that McDonald's every day and they're sitting there going, oh, my stars.

That's him. And the police did not screw it up. This rookie, formerly a sheriff, however, comes in. He's got a suspicion and he does a Terry. Good Terry stop. I think you highlighted that well and no as a defense attorney listen you're presented the the evidence and the facts as they are nancy you know we don't make that up uh we might highlight things or focus on different aspects to uh ensure uh you

know justice if you will but it was a great stop and and you quite properly note that he was experienced as a sheriff so he might have been a rookie to the Altoona PD, but certainly his instincts kicked in. Moved the mask, secured the scene, made sure that he was safe and his partner. And, you know, kudos to NYPD in getting the information out, the picture, as it's been noted. That was widespread national news and really just good old police detective work. Hey, Tom Smith, joining me, former NYPD detective, 30 years in the city, now star of the Gold Shield Show. It's a podcast. Tom Smith, thank you for being with me. Tom, you know how wrong this could have gone, how sideways it

could have all turned. You know, he had the ghost gun with him and one of the gun charges against him, he's got multiple gun charges, is A, he's got a suppressor, aka silencer, but also he had a loaded illegal gun. There wasn't just some ammo in his backpack. That gun was loaded. You know how wrong this takedown could have gone? It could have gone terribly wrong. The good thing was they got him kind of by surprise. They got him in a confined area and the deputies who showed up did a masterful

job at doing this. They got on top of him quick before he could do anything or think about anything. And like I said, being in that corner helped them a lot and they took advantage of that. You mean him sitting in a back booth in the corner? Yeah, there was nowhere for him to go. Absolutely. Is that what you're talking about? Yes, ma'am. You mean him sitting in a back booth in the corner? Yeah, there was nowhere for him to go. Absolutely. Is that what you're talking about? Yes, ma'am. You know, that's what you're all for. You know, Thomas Smith, this is, when I ask you what could have gone wrong,

I was a rookie ADA, assistant district attorney in inner city Atlanta, and had befriended a cop, a rookie cop, that had testified in a lot of what I was putting up to the grand jury, Randy Schipani. And he made a routine traffic stop. Routine traffic stop. That was it. The guy rolled down, the driver rolled down the window, took a gun, and shot him in the head. Just like that.

For nothing. So, you never know when is going to be your last day on the police force, Tom. Oh, yeah. I lived with that for 30 years. And that's what I mean by the great actions of this deputy. He didn't let him get an upper hand. He took control of the situation and had him covered, giving him no way to get out of that area or to, you know, any overt act towards the officers. According to a friend of his, his vertebrae were about a quarter to a half inch disaligned.

The pain was excruciating and possibly had pinched a nerve. Dave Mack, Crime Online, isn't it true that he confided to friends and his co-share on the 40th floor of a Hawaii high-rise that he couldn't have sex because of back pain? It's a constant agonizing feeling that he had all the time. And talking about not being able to have sex was just a way of him expressing that this was a chronic situation with no relief inside. It's like rusting from the inside, Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me, Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, explain the intense pain, intense pain that comes along with a back ailment like that and how that factors in to a young man, 26 years old, that can't have sex. Yeah, it would be horribly frustrating, Nancy, over this period of time. And you can see the horrific appearance of this. This surgery in and of itself is something that he would have been laid up with for a protracted period of time. We've got four screws that are being demonstrated here and this is a crucial pivot point in the axis of your body. So he would have been dealing with chronic pain.

Nancy, one of the things I'm wondering about, and I talked to Bethany about this off air, I really wonder if he was taking medication for pain management relative to this because this is not something that would have just, you know, he would have just healed from it very easily. We have to understand how far post-surgical he is to try to understand this. Was he under the influence of any kind of medication? And did he even have a doctor that he was following?

I know where you're going with this. This is like pouring gas on the fire for Jason Ocean's defense attorney. Whether he was on pain meds or not does not change intent to fire the weapon. He is currently charged with at least three crimes. One, murder two in New York. Why not murder one? Murder one in New York, correct me if I'm wrong, Jason Oceans. Murder one is usually reserved for a police officer, a correctional officer that has been killed. Torture is used. That's when we see a murder one charge. With murder one, yeah, you can get life without parole. Murder two, Jason, please, I don't mind if you interrupt.

Murder two is when you intend to do the act. It's not an accident. It's not drunk driving. It's not voluntary manslaughter. It's not heat of passion. You mean to pull the trigger. Your intent, correct. Yes. The sentence for murder two in New York is 15 to life.

There is no life without parole for murder two. He's charged with that. He's charged with forging and that's probably going to be his passport. And he's charged, it's called a forged document, either the passport or the driver's license. And he's charged with one count of criminal possession of a weapon, including a suppressor, a silencer. And I believe he's going to be charged with possession of live ammo in a gun. Also, he had a weapon without a serial number on it. We know it was a ghost gun now. And unless I'm wrong on those charges, Jason, do I have any of that wrong? Quickly.

No, you create recitation. The top count would be murder two, murder one referred one referred as you did reference only to law enforcement officers. Joe Scott Morgan is talking about is on pain medication. You know what? Yeah. Save it for the jury because he had this intense, intense period of time, an extended period of time where he planned this. And there is no way he's going to walk because he says, oh, I took a Xanax. He may have been on pain medication, although we have not been told he had it with him. We know he was exploring alternative methods of healing and pain relief, such as magic mushrooms, but he had the wherewithal to have a gun with him and a fake passport, according to the NYC Police Commissioner Tisch.

Responding officers questioned the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple fraudulent IDs as well as a U.S. passport. Upon further investigation, officers recovered a firearm on his person, as well as a suppressor, both consistent with the weapon used in the murder. They also recovered clothing, including a mask consistent with those worn by our wanted individual. Bombshell. In the last hours, an arrest goes down of the so-called assassin wanted in the cold-blooded execution of health care boss that ran UnitedHealthcare. Raking in millions of dollars a year, while zany theories circulated on social media that Thompson had actually hired someone to kill him. There were allusions that Thompson's wife was somehow involved and had set up a hit. All of that is bogus. All of that is BS.

Instead, what we've got is a 26-year-old Ivy League grad, double major, from University of Pennsylvania. Yeah, that's him. If you look at his social media, he and his family have traveled all around the world. He had the best of everything. His grandparents, Italian immigrants that can be traced back straight to Sicily, worked their fingers to the bone to build a financial empire, bought country clubs, golf course, started them, home health care, living facilities for seniors. All that money, all that education, all that privilege. And what does he do? According to police guns down United healthcare CEO and boy, according to them, did he have it all planned out, including the use of a 3d manufacturer at home, ghost gun. No serial number.

No way to identify it. As a matter of fact, if you do your research, you will learn that ghost guns are only traced less than 1% of the time. He thought he had it all figured out until an elderly patron having coffee at McDonald's saw him and raised the alarm. What more do we know? Listen. Also recovered was a fraudulent New Jersey I.D. matching the I.D. our suspect used to check into his New York City hostel before the shooting incident. Additionally, officers recovered a handwritten document that speaks to both his motivation and mindset. Oh, my stars, another manifesto. Nothing can make me happier than to have an accused killer write a manifesto about their

feelings. Joining me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, a renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of LA, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us. We hear veteran trial lawyer, Jason Oceans, jumping on something Joe Scott Morgan rightly said, could this guy have been on pain meds? But did you just hear the New York City Police Commissioner Tish state that he had this very well thought out manifesto. He had fake IDs. The degree of pre-planning is off the chart. Now, why he decided to keep his beloved ghost gun with him, which absolutely ties him to the murder, is beyond me. I guess that Ivy League graduate degree from University of Pennsylvania didn't help anything when it comes to this. Hey, this photo of

the fake ID that he apparently obtained from New Jersey under the name Mark Rosario, that took some thinking from our friends at CNN. So, Dr. Bethany, could you help me shoot down what Joe Scott Morgan and Jason Oceans have concocted? I took a Xanax and therefore I didn't know what I was doing. Well, Luigi Mangione's actions are consistent with multiple pathologies, psychopathologies. First of all, he's extraordinarily entitled to think that he could solve the whole healthcare crisis, that he's going to get rid of these parasites. He's anti-capitalist. He's also very, that's grandiose. It's entitled to take somebody's life. I don't believe this whole thing about the relative who was sick. I think that's just a rationalization for murder. I think he's been homicidal since his youth. He

wears what we call the mask of sanity. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Dr. Bethany, you just brought up a really good point, and I don't want it to get lost in the sauce. People are trying to rationalize it. They can't believe, oh, what's a millionaire boy like Luigi Mangione with his Ivy League degree, why would he do such a thing? You know, nobody gives it that much thought when it's street crime. They're like, hey, book him. He's guilty. But now we're like, oh, why did he do it? I think actually there's a clear motive. And to me, he has the type or he would be consistent with the type of psychopathology where the person attacks the very institutions and people who are

trying to help them. Okay. So think of the person in a restaurant who screams at the waiter, who's trying to do everything for them. They just think they can't get enough service. These baby-like people. So he's anti-capitalist, but he comes from a very wealthy family from whom he has been. Wait, wait, wait. How can you be anti-capitalist when you were at the trough of capitalism? Exactly. You're like eating more than anybody else. You're a pig. Yeah. Well, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. In other words, people who want more and more and more, it never works out well for them. And also, you know, he has this Ivy League education. He's also anti-medicine,

anti-insurance. I bet he built, I bet insurance covered for that very extensive procedure that he had. So this again is where he's attacking the institutions that are there to help him. So some people's pathology is such that they always think things are being done to them rather than for them. And when these people go to the hospital, they think the doctors, the nurses, everybody's, you know, torturing them, not giving them what they need. And they have a difficult time putting themselves in the doctor's shoes. The fact that the doctor is there to help them. In terms of medication, Nancy, the only role I could see is that opioids, and most surely he was prescribed those, activate the mu receptors in the brain. And that those are the same receptors that are activated when our mothers hold us as children. So given that...

Hold on, Dr. Bethany, wait just a moment, please. We're showing photos of him on the beach in Hawaii. Okay. I don't know who can. I work every day. My husband works every day. My twins go to school every day and they work in the summer. Who has time to take this much time off in Hawaii and live in a luxury high rise? How does that happen? Yet you're anti-capitalist. What? That doesn't make sense to me. Two and two is not equal four. No, it doesn't equal four unless you think of somebody who is extremely disturbed and they are resentful and envious of the people who are giving something to them. Think of babies. The minute the mother leaves the room, the baby screams and cries and wants the mother even more. And that's appropriate for infancy, but the baby doesn't really care or is not able to grasp that the mother might be tired or depressed or whatever, has other siblings to take care of. And so if someone gets stuck in that developmental phase, nothing that they're given is enough,

and they don't care about anybody around them. They scream and cry for whatever they want. In high school, he is the valedictorian of the Gilman School for Boys, a private school in Baltimore. As an Ivy League graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, he is a tech whiz. But somewhere along the way, Luigi Mangione developed a grudge against the medical community, either due to how a sick relative is treated or maybe his own treatment. An x-ray photo on his ex-account shows four pins in a spine, and he has five books involving chronic back pain on his reading list on his Goodreads account. To the class of 2016, that only explored new frontiers, but also maintained Gilman's most important traditions.

I think this combination of preservation and exploration is what Gilman is all about. Gilman maintains its classic core values by cultivating minds, body, and spirit in its students, but also champions an environment of acceptance and diversity while excelling in its technological endeavors. Our imagination draws from your inspiration, and our courage largely depends on your encouragement in the classroom, on the fields, and on the stage. So parents and faculty, thank you for all you have done for us. Today is as much an achievement for you as it is for us.

That is from the Gilman School, which is a private college preparatory school for boys only. It costs, I think, over 40 grand a year. I guarantee you he wasn't busing tables to pay that tuition bill. You know, Cheryl McCollum, joining me, forensic expert and street cop. Cheryl, so often when we prosecute and investigate crimes, we see the defendant, and this is not an excuse at all, comes from low income, a low education or no education, no job, and they end up committing crimes. That's not an excuse. There is no justification for violent crime, period. But rarely do you see an Ivy League grad with multimillionaire family members commit a crime like this. And even more rare is when the first crime, now true, he had a Hawaii violation of going into some part of a public park that was closed off to the public. That's it. You rarely see someone go from zero to 120 MPH, a premeditated murder. So you got the silver spoon

and you got the zero to 120 MPH going on here. Well, let's talk about what else you got. You got intelligence versus street smarts, which he doesn't have any, which is the reason he was caught. If you look and you think of back pain, imagine severe back pain, but you're hunched over writing a manifesto. You're hunched over building a ghost gun. You're hunched over writing on bullets. You decide to take a bus, which is going to take you four times as long as you, if you drove yourself, and then you're going to hop on a freaking bicycle. It doesn't look like back pain to me. It looks like his motive is clearly in his mind only, in my opinion.

Well, true, he may have been driven to distraction by the back pain. We know that. But murder is not the answer. We were listening to Luigi Mangione as the valedictorian at the Gilman School speaking about all the values that the Gilman School, speaking about all the values that the Gilman School maintains. This guy came from so much privilege. Listen. The suspected killer of UnitedHealth CEO Brian Thompson comes from a wealthy, educated, connected Maryland family. His grandfather grew up poor as a first-generation

American who built a real estate business that includes country clubs and media investments. Mangione is the cousin of Republican Maryland House of Delegates member Nino Mangione. His mother, Kathleen Zanino Mangione, owns a travel company, and his sister, Maria Santa Mangione, is a respected doctor, a medical resident at UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas after graduating from Vanderbilt Medical School. Right now, the information we're getting from Altoona is that the gun appears to be a ghost gun. It may have been made on a 3D printer. The capability of firing a 9mm round, obviously that will come out during our ballistics testing. Joining me in All-Star panel, but now straight out to Tom Smith,

former NYPD detective, 30 years, now co-host of the Gold Shields podcast. Tom, I want to talk about the ghost gun. What's your experience with ghost guns and guns made from 3D printers? You can make one at home. You get the parts. You can even get them online. Hey, here are some photos from our friends at CNN. What do you know, Tom?

Yeah, they're extremely dangerous and kind of taking over criminality today. And the way it's done, it's really simple. You can buy a 3D printer for anywhere from $300 to $3,000 and literally create, this is what I'm holding in front of you, the frame of a 9mm. You can create this. It's polymer. It's plastic. And this is what's created in these 3d printers then you go and just separately buy all the metal parts that you need to make the gun

functional those are done and bought in kits or separately and the problem with the ghost gun is there's no identifying markings on it there's's no serial numbers. There's nothing. They are clean. And then when you go and buy the parts or the kits, those also have no identifying numbers on them or serial numbers. So that creates a very, very dangerous weapon that police cannot trace when a crime is committed. Now, generally speaking, firearms are manufactured by licensed companies and they all have serial numbers displayed on the frame of the gun. That allows cops like you to trace the gun back to the manufacturer, the firearms dealer and the original purchaser. Not true with a ghost gun, Tom. No, they're absolutely untraceable.

There are no identifying markings on them whatsoever. So even if you commit the crime with it and discard it, it's still not going to come back to anything if it's recovered, much less in this instance, catching him with it. There's no traceable evidence to it, to where it came from, who manufactured it or anything. It's going to be strictly on his statements of having that gun on him. You know, Thomas Smith, I don't know about you, but not out loud to a jury, of course, but sometimes I wonder who is going about their day and they suddenly think, hey, has time to think about building their own gun with a 3D printer, thinks about a suppressor, a.k.a. silencer? Who does that? Why not just, you have to have a gun. Why don't you just go down to the gun shop and buy one? I mean, I think I know the answer, but let me hear you tell it. Yeah, it's just it's another aspect of criminality and it's dangerous.

And it's a horrible heartbreak for what's going on in this country with untraceable weapons. It's just constant. And the thing that you just said, Nancy, you can make this gun and put it together in a couple hours. By the time it's dried and you're able to break it apart in a couple of hours if you have the mechanical parts to it already in your possession. You can get these online and put them together at home. How hard is it, Tom?

It's not hard at all. I mean, look at the internet today. You can build anything. It's step-by-step. All you gotta do is watch a video. You know, the first one was fired back around, I think around 2013. And look how they have taken over Tom Smith. Oh yeah. Now it's not even handguns. It's long guns as well. You can get, you know, the receivers

to this made and then buy the other parts to a long gun now, an AR or anything like that. It's taken on a world of its own, which is really dangerous. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hermania Rodriguez joining us, chief U.S. reporter for DailyMail.com. Hermonio, with all the pre-planning, the meticulous visiting the scene, going to a hostel under a fake name, getting a fake jersey ID, getting a fake passport, wearing a mask everywhere, his getaway on the bike, going through Central Park, changing clothes. It's almost out of a James Bond movie, except he kept the ghost gun. He kept the passport. He kept the fake ID. He kept about $10,000, which he contests cash with him and foreign currency. Is it true? He still had the ghost gun on him. Correct. That's one of the interesting things about these cases. He did go through so much

preparation, yet he made several mistakes that got him caught. The first one, of course, being when he pulled down his mask to flirt with an employee at the hostel. That's how police were able to get his image, which eventually led to his arrest and as you mentioned he had on him at the time of his arrest all these clues that as then aside from his face of course made it clear to police that this was their guy i mean he kept the same id that police already had issued a picture of because the hostel had a picture of that fake ID from New Jersey. He also had the same exact weapon as well as the silencer, Nancy. So, yeah, a lot of preparation. But there were several things that he overlooked, which eventually led to his demise.

I mean, think about it. Cheryl McCollum explained it's not hard to break down a gun. Oh, the photos of the gun are from our friends at CNN. Cheryl, if he could put the gun together, he couldn't think to break it down and leave various parts of it in bodies of water or different trash cans along his bus route? He was proud of this gun, Nancy. He made it. He took the time to get the plans, to get the equipment, to get all the material. He was never going to throw that gun away. This is something that means more to him than the average person could understand. It is also associated with the biggest thing he's ever

going to do in his life. He's proud of that moment. If you look at, again, what he did, the time that he took, staying for the 10 days, building the gun, taking a bus ride, getting the monopoly money, writing the manifesto, waiting on the victim. This was not something he planned in a day or a week. This is something that meant a lot to him. You know, Jason Oceans, we are now looking toward extradition. Extradition, I've handled a hundred of them. They take about 10 minutes. It's not about finding guilt or innocence. Extradition, it can be from another state, like from Pennsylvania, in this case to New York. It can be from Mexico or Paris to the U.S. if we've got an extradition treaty. But nobody's saying, did you do this? There's no jury trial. It's just very simple. It's a,

are you Luigi Mangione? And two, are you the Luigi Mangione named and this warrant for your arrest? That's all it is. Right. It's just, uh, you have some speedy trial issue, uh, um, issues that come into play in terms of extradition. And from the that you have a, you know, a suspect in custody. And so that's exactly, as you said, that's in play now. Simple extradition, NYPD detectives will take him. I don't know that he'll object. It doesn't make any sense to just prolongs the process and they bring him to New York. Here's a technical legal term. I don't know if they taught you this at your law school, but a lot of times in extradition hearings, you run into a world-class a-hole, and they just won't agree to extradition. They'd rather languish in this case, Pennsylvania CI in Huntington, as opposed to facing the music in New York. It's going to happen. All you have to do

is get a fingerprint and go, he is not telling us, but this is Luigi Mangione and he is the Luigi Mangione in this warrant. That's all it is. It's two questions. But sometimes because the defendant is an a-hole, technical legal term, they won't agree. So you just send them back to the jail till you get the fingerprint. And you say, enjoy your stale sandwich. Exactly. And you sit in county, not assigned a prison cell in a group setting. You know, at that point, take the extradition and deal with the notoriety. And at least perhaps you'll have your own cell instead of being in a group.

It's about all he's got looking forward to. You are hearing Jason Oceans who has handled many, many extradition hearings, but now listen to Chief of Detectives Joe Kinney. We're going to have to work that out with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office in Altoona, Pennsylvania. He's going to be facing gun charges there and at some point we'll work out through extradition to bring him back to New York to face charges here, working with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. Luigi Mangione has been ordered held without bail and does not enter a plea in his first court appearance in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania. Mangione is escorted to his preliminary arraignment in handcuffs with multiple police officers from different departments walking with him as he is facing five charges,

including one felony count of forgery and one felony count of carrying a firearm without a license. Mangione is the lone person of interest in the brazen murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson in Manhattan last week, but he's not charged with that crime. I'm sure defense attorney Jason Oceans doesn't want to hear this, but Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, he stated very plainly, hey, you know what? I respect the FBI. You guys have done so much for our country. Let me just save you some time. I acted alone. He's perfectly coherent. So, Joe Scott, here's my question to you. What do you think will be the single most important evidence in this case?

And I'm guessing it's going to be forensics. Yeah, it will be. But I think maybe in a different area, it's going to be electronic forensics. Let's think about what we have. He's going to be tracked moving along now that we know who this guy is, his movements on the bus line. Did he have multiple phones? Did he have an actual phone that had his name attached to it, as well as a burner phone that maybe was tracked concurrently with the burner phone. Also, we haven't talked a lot about Brian Thompson here. What did this guy do to stalk him? You know, we go back to this idea

that he knew he was in Manhattan, that he knew he was at this meeting. Is his history, digital history, going to have a big reveal about this relative to him, following him day to day? Did he ever actually make any trips to Minneapolis to kind of inspect that area? That's going to be a big part of this, putting all of this together. I think that, yeah, the ballistics are unique, I think, if you can even attach it. But I think one of the biggest pieces of evidence here is all of this electronic data that's going to come into play.

And also, don't forget this, Nancy, he has a real understanding and a real love for AI. We've seen this throughout his social media posts, the life that he lived, his bachelor's and master's degree in computer science, the 3D ghost gun. He's familiar with that. That's a big part of new technology. And just being able to generate false IDs, all of that along the way is going to be a big, big dagger in the heart for him. Cheryl McCollum, you know what? Let me just give you an example. The ghost gun, for Pete's sake, is the single most important piece of evidence. I tie it with a fingerprint.

The single most important piece of evidence to me is we've got him on freaking video committing murder. Everything else is going to be tied to it. The gun, the clothing, fingerprint, everything else is coming. DNA. Single, single, single most important piece. Video. And quickly to Hermania Rodriguez, DailyMail.com. What happens now?

We're just waiting on the extradition hearing? Correct. So he's supposed to appear in court again in Pennsylvania today. And now the process of extradition moves along. Charges have already been filed in New York, so we don't have to wait for him to be physically in New York for that. But now that process starts and we are yet to hear what his defense is going to be. Is he going to oppose extradition, as you mentioned? And that that's what's going to start now, the legal process and all this evidence is going to emerge.

Tonight, we honor two American heroes. Number one, the so-called elderly patron having his or her coffee at a McDonald's just like every single morning. Who took it upon themselves, whether they knew it or not, to risk their lives to catch an alleged killer. We discussed earlier how very often arrests go sideways, much less the arrest of a violent criminal who's carrying a loaded ghost gun. And also hero Tyler Fry, a beat cop, a patrol officer in Altoona PD. He knew he was going to apprehend the health boss assassin, as he has been called. Did he shrink back? No.

He strode in and he made the arrest by the book. If it weren't for those two individuals, Brian Thompson's two boys may never have answers, but tonight, they do. Thank you to that patron at McDonald's and to patrol officer Tyler Fry. We wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.