Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEAR 5-year-old Lucas Hernandez 911 call; New Thriller 'Last Time I Lied,' Riley Sager

Episode Date: July 3, 2018

Investigators refer to 911 call recordings as a "Christmas tree" because of the many clues it gives them. Nancy Grace unwraps gifts delivered in the call Emily Glass made to report her stepson Lucas Hernandez was missing from their Wichita home in February and the call Jonathan Hernandez made after he found Glass shot to dead in the same house. Helping with the unwrapping are language expert Susan Constantine, Atlanta juvenile judge Ashley Willcott, and private investigator Vincent Hill. CrimeOnline.com reporter Leigh Egan updates the condition of Jonathan Hernandez who fell critically ill after his son's memorial service.  "Final Girls" author Riley Sager visits to talk about his newest novel "The Last Time I Lied." Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Did you know a recent law can leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling

the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. A five-year-old little boy, Lucas Hernandez, goes missing while his dad is out of town working. Then months pass and the search becomes desperate. Volunteers, ATVs, horseback, volunteers, ATVs, horseback, police, tracker dogs. No one can find little Lucas until a private eye, David Marshburn, tricks step-mommy Elizabeth Glass into getting into his car. They drive for hours until she ultimately leads him to little Lucas's body found in a washed-out culvert in an erosion pan. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. In the last hours, we learn of another bizarre twist. The dad, Jonathan Hernandez, right now in the intensive care unit at a local hospital. Why? This after step-mommy autopsy reveals she commits suicide the story becomes more and more convoluted with so many twists and turns it's hard to keep up we are going for the very latest in the condition of jonathan hernandez lucas's dad. Right now, we have just obtained the 911 calls.

Do they reveal what happened to little Lucas as well as to Emily Glass? Take a listen. Oh, my God. What's the location of the emergency? I don't know. My son. My son's gone. He's not in there.

He wasn't in there. He's not in the room. Where's your son at? I don't know. He's gone? Yeah, he's gone. When did he leave? I don't know. I just woke up to the alarm.

How old is he? The front door was open. It was a last-minute five. He's gone. How old is he? Ma'am? Ma'am, how old is your son? Five years old. Did someone take him? Or did he walk off? Ma'am, I don't know. I don't know. Where did he walk off? Ma'am, I don't know. I just woke up.

Okay, I just woke up. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. What address are you at? I'm at 965 South Edelman. Oh, my God, I don't know what to do. Ma'am, go ahead and repeat your location for verification for me, okay?

765 South Edgemore. Okay, all right. Ma'am, I have to go. I need to call his father because he's not in town. He's not working. All right, can you stay on the line with me? I need to get some more information, okay? Try to stay on the line with me.

What is your phone number that you're calling from? Okay, and what is your name? Okay, stay on the line with me. I've got some more questions, okay? What is your son's name? Lucas. Lucas? Yes. And you said he's five years old?

Yes, he's five years old. Is he white, black, Hispanic, or Asian? He's white. He's got some Mexican in him, but not a lot. You said he's half Mexican? Yes. Okay, that's fine, t tall is he? I don't know. About 14 maybe. I don't know. That's fine. Medium or heavy

build? He's little. He's really little. Okay. Do you remember what he was wearing? I'm on the phone with the top thing off. He was wearing black sweatshirt and a black sweater what he was wearing? I'm on the phone with a cop right now. He was wearing black sweats and a gray shirt with a bear on it. Okay.

Okay, I'm breaking in just one moment. With me is Susan Constantine, body and verbal language expert, Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, and Vincent Hill, private investigator, former Nashville PD. Everybody, thank you for being with us. I want to get right into it. To Susan Constantine, you know, the more I listen to Emily Glass on this 911 call, the more, actually, the more questions I have. And actually, I'm going to get to you and Vincent in one moment because I want to talk about the impact of a 911 call at trial,

which I would love to kick off a trial with a 911 call because it takes jury straight to the moment as it's happening. Susan Constantine, I'm just overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed listening to Emily Glass and all the gasping and the hyperventilating and the fake crying. She knows exactly where Lucas is because she put him in the washed out culvert. She put his tiny little body there. Time passes. We don't know how many days have passed.

And then she fakes this 911 call. Now, I'm no expert. You're the expert, Susan Constantine. I want to hear what you have to say. I'm just going on the facts that I know. you're very good observation Nancy first of all if you listen to her voice at the very beginning she becomes very angry with the 911 caller so anger is not an emotion that we would hear from someone that is concerned about that their child is missing you know her her gasping you're right it's very overacting, it's in performance.

One of the things that I felt really quite revealing was, is when the 911 caller asked her, how old is your son? She says he was five years old at that point, 45 seconds of that interview. So she had already viewed him as dead. So when you're listening to this, she's pushing out her cry. She's forcing this gasping response. And it's very revealing that she is actually in performance. Wow. A performance of a lifetime, Ashley Wilcott. You are not kidding, Nancy. And let me tell you what you just said is so true. When you have a jury trial and you start with the 911 call,

not only does it take you to that exact moment, it pulls the jury in emotionally. And so in this case, can you imagine if they heard her and everything you've just described and then were to learn if she were being tried that, wait a second, she was actually involved in this child was murdered. Very impactful. Yeah. I mean, vincent hill i'm going on what ashley wilcott and susan constantine have just said vincent hill former nashville pd now private eye vincent this proves when you are looking at somebody and you're listening to them give a statement or their testimony, you really have to analyze it. You've got to take it with not a grain or a pinch, but a box of salt. Because if I didn't know better, you know, this woman could really give Meryl Streep a run for her money for the next Oscar nomination.

The acting and the crying and the fake hyperventilating on the 911 call, Vincent. I mean, how do you determine when a witness is telling the truth? Well, you hit the nail on the head, Nancy, and to an untrained ear, it sounds sincere, this 911 call, but we've all said that this was an overacting job. And the one thing that I picked up on this entire time, kept saying i woke up from a long nap but she never once said i went out to look for little lucas so she already knew he was gone and he was likely deceased at that point man that's a good catch vincent hill she never did okay alan could you roll some more of that 911 call? I'm trying to glean any facts that I can.

Hi, we're looking. We're looking. All right, I'm still here, okay? Just keep talking to me. I need to call his dad. I need to call his dad. I understand. I understand, okay? I need to get a little bit more information, okay? When was the last time you saw him? Around like 3 o'clock. Okay. And he was at home? Yes, ma'am. Okay.

All right. And what color is his hair? It's brown. Short or long? It's short. Okay. was he wearing anything else a hat or anything he had um he had white socks on and he had a pull-up on because we were taking a nap so what do you mean a pull up? A pull up for night time, you know. Okay, what color was that? White and blue. White and blue?

He has brown eyes and really, really long eyelashes. Okay. And I don't know. Just hang in there. Okay. Is he the only one missing? Okay. Did you see any suspicious people in the area? Um, I mean, I mean, I didn't know there was some people hanging out in the corner of my house.

I don't know. So there were some suspicious people in the corner? I don't know. I don't think that would have to do anything with it. But you just never know in this neighborhood. I'm just so scared. Okay. Where is she? We know a lot of the facts.

With me, Susan Constantine, body and verbal language expert. Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. And former cop turned private eye, Vincent Hill. Ashley, we know that she later tries to blame a quote homeless guy. She claims she brings into the home who they then infer kills or takes baby Lucas. But when dispatch asks her point blank about strange or suspicious people in the area, she does not name him. That's right. She lies, lies, lies, frontwards, backwards, every direction. And she's just making stuff up. Now, the one thing I wonder, Nancy, you know, she does keep saying in the 911 call,

he's gone, he's gone. And so I'm not a language expert, but I wonder if that's at all. She's panicked and hyperventilating because she knows he's gone, i.e. dead, and she doesn't want to get caught. You know, another issue I'm suspicious about, actually, she said a homeless man and referred to a woman being involved somehow in Lucas's disappearance. But when you listen to this 911 call and she's asked specifically by dispatch about suspicious people in the area. She doesn't mention either of them. That story only pops up well after the search is on for Lucas.

Another thing that strikes me, Susan Constantine, body and verbal language expert, man, she's got the lies down to a T to the details, even describing his pull-up. Yeah, it's overly descriptive. Most people in those situations don't remember those very high-level details. They just remember things that just kind of occurred. So the fact that they kind of go back and then they redo that statement and then they start adding all these little details, then they're trying to appeal to the person that they're actually speaking to to make it sound more logical

but the one thing that i want to make a point to is remember nancy i've talked about that number three forty-eight percent of all deceptive statements reference a three o'clock or 3 30 time frame in their statements and again she says that she saw him last around 3 o'clock. You know, to Vincent Hill, private investigator, I know that sounds like, oh, what's your lucky number? Or read the numbers or numerology. And I don't put a whole lot of stock into that. But statistically, Susan is right. She has looked at thousands of statements and fact situations. And there are certain numbers that people fall back on.

I don't know why that is. Maybe it's because for all those years they got out of school at 3 o'clock. I don't know. I'm guessing, and I don't have the expertise to do that. But she is right about that, Vincent. Susan's absolutely right, And I think that's the default number. And to your point, Nancy, maybe it is because we get out of school at three o'clock or people get off work at three o'clock. So it just becomes this common number that we call out

during these times. But one thing I noticed, if you listen really closely in this call, there's another child in the background. And you can even hear the dispatcher say, is he the only one missing? But what's important is that child is very calm in how they're acting. And if this child was watching their parent crying and being hysterical, automatically the child would be. So that goes back to this was probably a huge acting job by Emily Glass during this 911 call. I just took a nap in my room. Okay, so you went to check on him, and then you went to go take a nap, and he's not there anymore, correct? No. I is going on?

Okay, it's okay. Do you know if he left with anything else? Was there any pets missing or anything? We don't have any pets. His shoes are here and his coat is here. His shoes and coat are in there? Yes, ma'am. Okay.

Has he ever wandered off before? No. Okay. No. This is not Harry. This is Jordan. Okay. Where have you looked at all? Have you looked in the house at all? I looked all around the house. Okay. I went to the neighbors, and I asked, and they said no, and that's why I called you. Okay. And I didn't know. It seemed like he wanted to go play on the couch next door. I don't know. I didn't know if he wanted to go play. I'm just catching next door.

I don't know. There you hear Emily Glass when she's pointedly asked by 911 dispatch. Then she goes, oh, I looked at the neighbors and I looked all around the house. The fake crying, the fake moaning, the fake hyperventilating. But all the while, we know she is the one that disposed of five-year-old Lucas's body. At this hour, we learned the distressing news that Lucas's dad is in ICU at the hospital. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Maybe suspected your partner's cheating? Maybe worried about your online reputation?

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It's the first time I've been home in like three weeks. My fiance has been staying here. Mm-hmm. And I had nowhere else to go tonight, so I asked her, hey, are you awake, et cetera, and she didn't answer, so I came home. And it's so bad. It's so bad. What happened? I saw my rifle. Okay, so did she shoot herself?

At her feet. Yes, I think so. I think so. Her brain is laying on the carpet and her head is split wide open. Okay. Where's, where's the gun at now? It's at her feet. Okay. And you said it's a rifle? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Have you seen any other weapons? No, ma'am. I have a shotgun in the closet. If it still there i haven't even checked but there was only my rifle that it looks like she got out of the case okay and is anyone else injured that you know of no ma'am you are hearing jonathan hernandez on his 911 call when he discovers his fiance emily glass luke's stepmother, dead in his home. Joining me, Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Susan Constantine, Ashley Wilcott, and Vincent Hill. Susan Constantine, what do you make of Jonathan's words on 9-1-1?

Well, first of all, he takes too much time to lead up to what happened. The 9-1 The 911 operator said, what happened? And then he pauses. He's like, he's exhausted. And then he uses what, Nancy? Again, I've been gone for about three weeks. And then he, you know, the lead up to what happened is too long. So there is a, there's science behind this tape. About 25% of the story should be the lead up, 50% of the body of the story and 25% of the end. But if you listen to his story, he's got 50% of it's the lead up

of when he's walking in the door. So he's very emotionally disconnected. And he also gives you reason why he wasn't there. He said, I had nowhere else to go. And then he uses the word et cetera. Et cetera is where you're leaving out information. Remember, later on, meanwhile, sometime thereafter, he's not giving us all the information what led up to the reason why he was there.

To Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, founder founder childcrimewatch.com what do you make of it there's just too much that i question about the father obviously i feel for him grieve his loss all of those things but nancy something doesn't add up to me and we do have reports from relatives that there have been bruises on lucas before his death and signs of abuse. And I just believe that the father knew more than he's letting on to. I noticed that he refers to her still as my fiancée, and that he had nowhere else to go that night and apparently was going there to stay. His fiancée, Emily Glass, Lucas' stepmother, staying in the home.

Joining me right now, Lee Egan. Lee, what can you tell me about the latest regarding Jonathan Hernandez in the ICU? What's happening? Shortly after Lucas' memorial on Saturday, he started having breathing problems and he couldn't swallow. I spoke to his mother, Cindy, and she said that he went to the ER Saturday evening. They thought it might have been tonsillitis, but they gave him something, sent him home. And by 3 a.m., the pain had gotten much worse. So he went back in and they checked him into the hospital at that time. And they're doing a CT scan to figure out what's going on he's still

in a lot of pain he's still there he can't breathe he's having trouble eating and they really don't know at this point it's gonna be he's gonna be determined after they get the test back you know I'm just overwhelmed with what he has been through to Vincent Hill private investigator former Nashville PD what do you make of his 911 call I noticed he was extremely deliberate with his speech and on the several times that he's spoken with us and you've been with me Vincent he was very calm and very deliberate. And at first it threw me off a little bit because he's talking about such emotional and upsetting topics.

The disappearance of his son, five-year-old Lucas, Lucas's death, his battle to get custody of his one-year-old daughter, who was taken away during all this um he of course was out of town when all this happened just trying to make a living then the discovery of emily glass dead in his home i just think it's been too much for him vincent yeah it's definitely been a lot for anyone to take in nancy but going back to what susan said in this 911 call there was a lot of build-up to what happened and again when you're listening to these calls in it as an expert you would expect that to come out first and not pointing fingers at jonathan by any means but i'm sure people will question because he said things like she had my rifle which could explain why his dna would be on it if this was investigated a different way.

So there's a lot going on here. Again, not pointing fingers to Jonathan, but the 911 call did seem a little calm, a little deliberate, less than what you would expect if you just found your fiance with her brains blown out on the floor. I want to listen again to what I can learn from this 911 call from Jonathan Hernandez. Listen. Tell me exactly what happened. It's the first time I've been home in like three weeks. My fiance has been staying here.

And I had nowhere else to go tonight. So I asked her, Hey, are you awake? Et cetera. And she didn't answer. So I came home and it's so bad. It's so bad. What happened? I, I saw my rifle. Okay. Did she, so did she shoot herself? I saw my rifle at her feet. Yes, I think so. I think so. Her brain is laying on the carpet and her head is split wide open. Okay.

Where is the gun at now? It's at her feet. Okay. And you said it's a rifle? Yes, ma' feet. Okay. And you said it's a rifle? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Have you seen any other weapons? No, ma'am.

I have a shotgun in the closet. If it's still there, I haven't even checked. But there was only my rifle that it looks like she got out of the case. Okay. And is anyone else injured that you know of? No, ma'am. You know, his demeanor, Susan Constantine, is very similar to every time we spoke to him. So that is his natural demeanor. I think the guy's just been through too much. Susan, what do you make of his demeanor? Well, I think that you're right, Nancy, in part is that,

you know, we do look at norm or baseline behaviors. How do they normally sound? But there's other information that he's not giving us. He's leaving out stuff that's really important, you know, like et cetera. Why does a person use et cetera? They use it because they're leaving out things that are leading up to what happened. All I'm saying is that there's something that occurred from the time he got the call to when he got there so there was something that occurred between the two of them before they got there his his

demeanor is very flat he's got a very flat affect but it never changes even when he's talking about his brain laying out her brain laying on the floor it's just very odd even though that is his baseline behavior. To Alan, I know you recall when we spoke to Jonathan and everything he told us corroborates what he says in that 911 call. A lot of people have blamed him at his feet. They have suggested he was part of Lucas's disappearance which I do not believe they have suggested he's responsible for Emily Emily's death which I do not believe based on the autopsy findings some of her friends

have joined us and they have it suggested he or someone else was responsible even a Wiccan plot, Wicca, witchcraft. Okay, almost too fantastical to take in. But I want you guys to listen to what Jonathan told us as compared to the 911 call. Listen. The lights were on and the TV was on and it looked like, you know, somebody was there. And I go to the bedroom and she's not there. So I go out to the garage and check to see if a car was there. I thought maybe

she wasn't staying there, maybe had left for something. And her car was there in the garage. So I went back inside and did a more thorough room byroom search, and that's when I found her in the back room. When you found her, was she dressed? Was she lying in bed? What was the condition of her body? She was dressed. It looked like she had pajamas on. At first, did you believe she was just asleep?

No, I did not. I thought it was a dream. I wasn't sure what was happening at first. Why are you convinced, Jonathan, Emily killed herself? Just the way everything looked. It looked like she had thought about it. She got my gun case out of my closet and took it into that back room with her and then opened the gun case there. And the gun was laying next to her. And she had, it looked like she had smoked three or four cigarettes that were on the floor by her feet. So, you know, maybe she had thought about it for a little while anyways before she did it. Again, everything Jonathan Hernandez has told us in the past is corroborated by this newly obtained 911 call.

This is what he tells me regarding the crime scene itself when he finds Emily Glass dead in her home. There were actually three suicide notes. Listen to what Lucas's dad, Jonathan, tells us about the discovery of those suicide notes. Where were they? I honestly don't know. They didn't tell me where they were. And as far as two of them, they haven't told me what's in them, except for the third one. They did tell me was rolled up and stuck inside of her engagement ring. And it said to give our daughter the ring when she gets older.

With me, Susan Constantine, Ashley Wilcott, and Vincent Hill. Also with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Lee Egan. Lee, I find it very difficult to believe a simple breathing problem lands Jonathan Hernandez in ICU. And he's still in there. Well, I think it's a bit more than just a breathing problem. His mother said that there could be like some kind of lesions or an abscess on his esophagus. They again they don't know for sure until these tests are done but it was enough to where when he went back the second time they they checked him in there. To Ashley Wilcott. Ashley, I'm wondering, armchair diagnosing here,

when you have, they've confirmed it's an esophageal issue, we think. When you have incredible stress, very often your esophagus clamps up and it feels like a heart attack and people actually have to lay down prone because the pain is so intense and it's often mistaken for a heart attack. I mean, Ashley, after all this dad has been through, the suggestion, as you pointed out, that Emily Glass had been mistreating and abusing the child all this time when he was away working, I guess, on an oil rig type situation and leaving his son with her. He did not see it. He did not realize what was happening, according to him.

Then the son missing. He's looking for the son for three months, trying to find him, only to find out his body has been found and then his fiance commits suicide i mean that guy has been through hell and back arguably one person can only take so much and he's full up of what he's had to take the other thing nancy is to remember when you interviewed him one time he did say the other piece of this that was so hard is that people are actually angry at him and contacting him and won't leave him alone. Because, of course, all of America wants to tell him what they think about his actions or lack of action. So I think that's one more additional stress that was added to all of the rest of this.

I guess part of it, Vincent Hill, I mean, he is the father of Lucas. So ultimately, it is at his feet what happened to Lucas because you're supposed to be taking care of your child. But I've just got to say the man's out of town trying to make a living to support everybody. When this occurs, I don't see how he could be responsible. The sad part, Nancy, is he entrusted Lucas with Emily, as many of us as parents do. Me being a single father, sometimes I have to entrust my son with someone while I'm out making a living. So we can't lay that blame at Jonathan's feet that this happened to Lucas because he thought his fiancée would assume that role of protecting Lucas. Susan Constantine, body and verbal language expert,

he has the same methodical tone of voice every time we hear him. And I just don't know how he controls all that stress. Well, it sounds like to me that he holds it in, and that's probably why we're seeing the reason why he's in the hospital, because you can only retain that so much. Remember we talked about all that anxiety being held inside inside that it's like a teapot. Once it gets to the certain temperature, it starts to boil and that starts to boil over. So I think that's what we're seeing here. Take a listen to the memorial for Lucas Hernandez held in the last

days. I'd like to share a letter inspired by the many volunteers who have been forever changed by Lucas. Lucas Hernandez, that's a name many of us heard for the first time on a cold February day as the sun slowly sank and darkness fell. The moment we first heard his name, we realized that the worst fears of any parent were coming true. A child was missing, out in the dark, alone, cold and afraid. We didn't know him yet, yet the community drew in a tense breath filled with fear and anxiety, and we would not

exhale for the next 97 days. In the beginning, Lucas was simply a missing child. We did not know him. We had never heard the sound of his voice or witnessed his sweet giggle. We didn't know the struggles that he had faced when he came into this world, small and sick. We didn't know about his cherished mother and his idolized father. We didn't know about the precious moments he spent with the family whom adored and loved him. All those things came later, graciously gifted to us by those who knew him best. Joining me right now, a name you all know or should know, Riley

Sager. Awesome, awesome book coming out, The Last Time I Lied. Oh, my goodness. Okay, that's conjuring up all sorts of images for me, Riley. Now, it seems like I was just talking to you about Final Girls, which was awesome. Tell me about The Last Time I Lied. Oh, first of all, what I need to know is can I get it immediately? I'm all about instant gratification. Can I get it on Amazon?

That's my first question. Yes, it is available today wherever books are sold. All right. Now, that's important to me because, you know, the school, the twins go to it. They pile them up with reading. And honestly, to go to the bookstore, don't get mad at me because I'm all about the traditional bookstore, brick and mortar. I'm down with it. But for their purposes, it's easier for me to just carry around an iPad and download it on Kindle. So you've made me very happy that I can get The

Last Time I Lied. Yes, that's the title of his brand new book on Amazon. Okay, now hold on. This is not an ad for Amazon. I wouldn't know them if they bit me on the neck. I'm all about the book, The Last Time I Lied. Okay. It's out today, first day. Tell me. It better be a thriller, Riley. Oh, it is a thriller. Oh, yes.

If there's not a dead body and I'm not thrilled, then I don't want it. Forget a romance. Tell me this is not a romance, is it? There is a little bit of romance, but. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. And it's all you can think about is sex. Tell me this is not a romance, is it? There is a little bit of romance, but... Oh, dear Lord in heaven. It's all you can think about is sex. Really?

Okay, when there's a dead body, I have this fight all the time about Haley Dean because I have a team. I come up with ideas for my character Haley Dean, and they always want her, you know, getting more involved with a man. I'm like, what is it with you people? Is that all that's on your mind? So you threw in some romance. Okay. I hope it's an appropriate amount of romance. And he's suspicious too. So it might

not be completely romantic. I want the thrill, Riley. Tell me. Okay. So the book is about a woman named Emma Davis and 15 years ago she went to an exclusive all-girls summer camp and all Lucy and John Davis friends want them to go to summer camp I'm like H-E-L-L no what I want them dead or molested? Forget it. They're staying right here with me, and we're staring at the TV. Yeah, after reading this book. Hold on. How old is Emma when she goes to summer camp? She is 13.

Hmm. Okay, that's a little bit better. Okay, go ahead. I was about to accuse you of being a bad dad, although this is a fictional character I'm getting mad about. Okay, go ahead. Emma goes to camp. What happens? Three of her cabin mates leave the cabin in the middle of the night

and the last one out the door shushes her and says you're too young for this m and they're never seen again i'm getting chills okay just so you know i was a camp counselor at rock eagle national 4-h camp for you when i was a camp counselor at Rock Eagle National 4-H Camp. Oh, were you? When I was a hike master all day long. I took children on hikes. And you just scared me. The thought of three of them getting out and never being seen alive again.

And now, 15 years later, she's invited back to that same camp to teach art because she's an up-and-coming artist. And she decides to go and figure out, try to find out what happened to her friends. You actually gave me chill bumps just then. Okay, so they leave. Emma stays behind. Whatever you do, don't give away the ending because I will never, ever forgive you. My husband is the worst. We can't watch a movie without him blurting it out usually because he's seen it before not because he sleuthed it okay and even the twins they're 10

before we watch any movie they're like dad do not speak okay don't don't give it away oh i won't so they leave it's in the middle of the night. I'm scaring myself. Then what happens? No one, they've never been found. So 15 years later, Emma returns to the camp as a painting instructor. And her real reason is to try to figure out what happened to her friends. And when she gets there, she realizes that everything about that camp might not quite be what it seems. You mean Camp Nightingale? I mean, do you think maybe you should have given it a creepier name than Nightingale?

Like Camp Freaky? Oh, but names can be deceiving. Looks can be deceiving. You can't trust anyone. I love it. Okay, go ahead. Names can be deceiving. Looks can be deceiving. You can't trust anyone. I love it. Okay, go ahead. So she goes back to Camp Freaky, excuse me, Camp Nightingale.

And what happens? As a painting instructor. But wait a minute. During the years between age 13 and she turns into a young adult, what happens then? Well, she's haunted by the... In that time. Do we know? She's haunted by the past. Those friends mentally

haunt her. She wants to know what happened to them. What do you mean by haunted? They come to her in dreams. She wakes up at night screaming. She's sweaty. She, what? Tell me. Clammy? She might have had some mental problems after the disappearance.

Oh, I guess so. And some of them might return to her as hallucinations, or they might be ghosts. You never know. Wait a minute. Let me ask you something. Yes. Where are you from, Riley Sager, that you don't believe in ghosts? I am from the...

Let me guess. New York City? No, Pennsylvania. What part, please? It's the tiniest county in the state, Montour County. I lived in Philly for a while with my sister when she was a professor at Wharton for a brief time after my fiance was murdered. And so I know the Philly area pretty well. Now, where is this?

This is pretty much in the middle of the state oh very right yeah i grew up surrounded by fields and forests soybean fields and tall pine trees so we don't know exactly why she's hallucinating or she's having dreams or are they for real ghosts begging her to help find them so that night when the girls leave they're also 13 i take it no they're older girls older yeah as in 15 16 17 15 16 and she has no idea where they were going no did she try to go along? That would be spoiling things. I can't spoil things for you. Don't spoil it. Don't you dare, because I will never forgive you. Now, you've just come off the success of Final Girls.

Final Girls, for those of you, you know what? I'll let you tell it before I go on and on about, but you tell about Final Girls, because it's a huge bestseller. Final Girls was about a group of victims of horrible horror movie-like massacres. And there are three of them, and they get all this attention in the press. And when one of them dies under mysterious circumstances, the other two sort of meet up, and things get really suspenseful and scary from there.

Well, each one of the girls survives a horror, and suddenly they realize somebody wants them dead. They were the victims of three separate tragedies. Okay? The only way that they're bound together is what they went through the similar trauma of having been through that right well riley question to you where do you get the ideas about torturing young girls i can't help but ask well i don't see it as torturing young girls. I see it as showing their empowerment. Empowerment with basically a serial murder in the background. Well, in the three final girls, of course, the tragedies were separated.

Right. But how do these ideas come to you? I'm inspired by them. There's nobody missing in your apartment complex, is there? No, there's not. If there is, I didn't do it. Alan, get on it. I swear.

Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. The ideas just, quote, come to you. Because if I had you on cross-examination, so much like the dream O.J. Simpson had, the ideas just come to you. Hmm. What a phenomena ominous as if you're clairvoyant, Riley Sager. When did the ideas come to you? Are you asleep and you wake up? Are you driving down the road? What? Um, part of my writing process is really just, I allow myself thinking time where I just sit in a comfy chair with a cup of coffee and a pen and paper

and just think about what fascinates me, what do I want to spend a year writing, what could make a really interesting, suspenseful book. And with The Last Time I Lied, one of the things that inspired me was it's a classic movie from Australia called Picnic at Hanging Rock. And it's about girls at an all-girls school in the outback who go to a place called Hanging Rock and they vanish.

And there are no answers. The movie doesn't tell you what happened to them. Riley Sager, you're freaking me out just a tiny bit. Are you sure nobody's missing in your apartment complex? I can find out, Riley. You might as well tell me the truth. Should I put my neighbor on the phone? No, because I know that's the neighbor.

How do I know that's your neighbor, not somebody bound and gagged in your basement? I mean, I don't know. Okay, so you're telling me, Alan, check it out. Make sure nobody's missing in his apartment complex. So how long did it take you to write The Last Time I Lied? It was about a year. And between finishing Final Girls and the publication of Final Girls,

I had a lot of time to work on my next book. And I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what kind of creepy things are happening at this creepy camp in the middle of the forest. Well there goes the children's my children's chance to go into camp next summer that is just not going to happen and certainly not to Camp Nightingale uh-uh so question to you. I apologize to them because you will not be sending them to camp after reading this book. You're not going to camp anytime soon. Let me ask you a question.

So we have Emma in this, Last Time I Lied, and Quincy in Final Girls. Are they different? Do they have the same type of personality? And how did you create that personality? Well, I like to look at what happened to them in the past, these traumatic events, and see how they shaped them. For Emma, she's a painter, and one of the things she does is she paints the girls who went missing from her cabin. That's the first thing she paints on her canvases. And then she covers them up with

abstract views of forest and lakes and trees. And that's sort of her way of sort of trying to process her grief and this feeling of guilt that she has about their disappearance and not knowing what happened to them. The book is really all about what does a person do when they don't have answers? And at what lengths will they go to to find those answers? And the main crux then for Emma is getting answers about what happened to her friends that night, no matter the cost. Riley Sager, author of bestseller Final Girls, new blockbuster coming out today, The Last Time I Lied. Riley Sager, I mean this in the most complimentary fashion,

you are one freaky dude, man, And I cannot wait to read this book. And you have to promise me something. Yes. That you will join me when your next book comes out, because I'm sure it'll be even freakier. Oh, I'm working on it now, and I'm trying. I'm really trying. But right now, let me log on to Amazon right now and get the last time I lied. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody?

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