Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hear evil movie theater mass killer in his own words

Episode Date: February 26, 2019

Hours of video interviews of the man who dressed in a costume and murdered 13 people inside a Colorado movie theater in 2012 shed new insights into the twisted mind of James Holmes. The videos made by a court-appointed psychiatrist were recently released by the prosecutors who convicted Holmes in the Aurora theater massacre. Nancy Grace listens to them with a panel including Atlanta lawyer and juvenile judge Ashley Willcott, former detective Steve Lampley, pyschologist Caryn Stark, Crime Stories reporter John Lemley.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 14, we have a parking car shot. Point 240, John Zebra, IA, Ida, Ida, it's a Kia, Ikea. Copy, there's another victim in a white Kia. Where is that vehicle at? 16 Adam, I need a March Core behind the theater table side. The suspect in a gas mask. Hold the air one second. Cars with that white car in the rear of the lot, is that a suspect?

Yes, we've got rifles, gas masks. He's detained right now. I've got an open door going into the theater. Okay, hold that position. Hold your suspect. 16, I've got seven down and a few are not. Seven down. We can 25 everybody on this. It's an assault rifle. We have we have a magazine down inside. So we watch out for the assault rifle. All right, so the guy's still in theater nine.

I'm working on the backboard right now for that female. A suspect is going to be a male, unknown race, black camo type outfit. I believe he'll be wearing a vest, gas mask, and multiple long guns. Our country will never forget that Aurora Police Dispatch communication with officers as they describe a suspect in a vehicle inside the Aurora Theater shooting. A stunning development. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

I remember so well when this happened because one of my very best friends, Christy, who taught me to dive in the swimming pool at the YMCA in Brooklyn from Aurora. And we went on many, many dive trips. I remember jumping in the first time holding her hand. And when I heard this, I felt a chill go down my body my eyes filled up with tears I just at a theater in a dark theater where everybody's looking at the screen and then shots ring out you hear the police frantic they don't know what's happening. They're all running there. It was James Holmes, a new development. Straight out to John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

What's happening? Prosecutors have released hours, and I do mean hours, 22, 23 hours of video showing the Colorado theater shooter James Holmes interviews with a psychiatrist about this 2012 massacre. The videos show Holmes being questioned by William Reed, a court-appointed psychiatrist who was charged with evaluating Holmes' sanity and ability to stand trial. Most of the videos were widely reported. However, this is the first time that all 22, 23 plus hours are being released to the public. With me, John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Karen Stark, psychologist joining us from Manhattan. You can find her at KarenStark.com.

We're now Detective Stephen Lampley and judge, Lawyer, and Anchor Ashley Wilcott. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. To John Limley, what do these recordings reveal about Holmes' mindset at the time of the shooting? The viewing is rather slow. It's a lot of really just seeing him sitting there with this. Now, for many of us who have been covering the case, that trademark sort of deer caught in the headlights expression on his face, almost like he doesn't really know where he is and what's going on. However, the psychiatrist, Reed, does get to the heart of what was going on in the shooter it seems. And he was looking to honestly get rid of some of those people through this shooting.

Why does he hate humanity so much? To Karen Stark, we need a shrink. Karen Stark, psychologist joining us from Manhattan. She's at karenstark.com. Karen, just an utter hatred and really disdain, not even hatred. Hatred is actually a very powerful feeling. Disdain is like when you chase down a roach and you kill it and flush it down the commode. You think nothing of it. What do you make of this? I make that he has no conscience. He has no empathy.

When you don't have feeling, Nancy, it's just what you described. You don't have hatred then. It's just nothing really matters. It's all a game. You want to get rid of people. You want to hurt them. You don't personalize them. They could be a whole row of animals.

That's why in some of the cases we hear about people killing animals at a small age. They're just practicing. It's not alive to them. It's just anything. Take a listen to our friends at KRDO-TV anchors Colleen Socorro and Chase Gleitley. It's been seven years since the tragic Aurora Theater mass shooting and new disturbing details in what was going through the shooter's mind leading up to the tragic mass shooting that killed 13 people and injured 70 more. We're getting a look at James Holmes' psychiatric evaluation.

It's several sit-downs between him and a judge-ordered psychiatrist. KRDO News Channel 13's Crystal Story has been digging through to see what we can find out. James Holmes takes a seat in his green jumpsuit. His psychiatrist, Dr. William Reed, who we only see for a second, is there to see if this now convicted killer was sane. At that point, do you have decided that you were a murderer? Um, that I was going to be... Guys, without any further ado, let's take a listen to the court-appointed psychiatrist,

Dr. Williams-Reed, speaking with the Aurora Theater shooter, James Holmes. As the last escape. I don't know what I was escaping from. I don't either. Any thoughts? I guess death is the last escape. But you're talking about what you described as an

obsession starting over ten years before. And that led to, quote, the last escape, comma, mass murder at the movies. Escape. Maybe the thoughts were escapism. I was using them to kind of get out of bed on time.

You are hearing there the court-appointed psychiatrist, Dr. Reed, speaking with the Aurora mass shooter who opens fire in a crowded, dark movie theater, gunning down 12. And in Holmes' journal, he had described the movie shooting, the movie massacre, as being the Dark Knight, K-N-I-G-H-T. Well, the, quote, Dark Knight massacred 12 innocent people. You know, just last week, I took the twins as a surprise on a Friday night to go see The Kid who would be king. The new movie about the modern day Arthur, the modern day knight from King Arthur's court.

And we were sitting, of course, in their favorites directly on the front row. Yes, I know my neck's killing me in the center. And then they are in those seats where you lay all the front row. Yes, I know my neck's killing me. In the center. And then they are in those seats where you lay all the way back. I'm just looking at it between them. I had my arms over each one of them. And I'm thinking about James Holmes. 315 and 314 for a shooting at Century Theaters.

14300 East Alameda Avenue. They're saying somebody's shooting in the auditorium. 315 and 314, there are hundreds of people just running around. 316, do you advise? Take somebody's friends and staff over here, too. 316, I need a rescue in here. I see we've got a guy shot. And inside of Theater 9? Just outside of Theater 9.

316, we've got another person outside shot in the leg of female i got people running out of the theater they're shot in room nine 318 another victim on the north side of this theater in the parking lot i'm being told that he's in theater nine from what i'm spelling inside i can it sounds like it's oc maybe two You're hearing mass bedlam as Aurora PD race to the theater at the Century 16 multiplex there in Aurora to try to stop a massacre. They did their best, but 12 people gunned down by the, quote, Dark Knight

James Holmes. Prosecutors released audio video of the, quote, Dark Knight James Holmes speaking to his psychiatrist. Listen. I asked briefly about your thoughts the day before the shootings, the day before that when you started putting together the napalm and things like that. And I asked, have you had any thoughts as you went to sleep that night? That would have been the night of the 18th, I guess. Well, there wasn't anything dangerous set up at that time. And we talked about it was gasoline, but you had the caps on the bottles and things like that. I guess I'm thinking about thoughts you may have had

about the mission or about the shooting. No, it was kind of just another day. Do you have lots of regalia around you? And you're not thinking about it or your shooting or your preparation. He just said I was going to have to assemble the incendiary devices the next day. You are hearing the, quote, dark night James Holmes talking to the shrink about the night before the mass shooting. And he says, quote, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, and anchor at AshleyWilcott.com.

Ashley says, just, lawyer, and anchor at AshleyWilcott.com. Ashley says, just quote, just another day. It was just another day. Here's the thing that bothers me about this interview. Not only does he say, oh, it was just another day, nonchalant, no big deal, I'm going to go kill a bunch of people. But he also talks about the feeling of disdain that he had had. I stand by when I speak about prevention, someone should have noticed, been aware of the fact that this individual was suffering through delusional thoughts, disdain, things that could result in something like what he did. Someone should have said something. We are talking about a stunning release of documents, audio and video in the investigation of the Dark Knight, James Holmes.

Take a listen to Holmes speaking to psychiatrist Dr. Williams-Reed, explaining why he chose a site so close to a police station. In the tactics and strategy, we talked a little about how close the police station was. Yeah, like five minutes, right? Yeah. And we talked a little about what led you to choose a venue that close to a police station. Can you reiterate some of that for me or think about that again for me? I just figured I'd be caught because there was a police presence in that area when I would still have time to do the mission. We talked briefly and I'd like to revisit it about considering places where you wouldn't be caught or you'd be less likely to be caught or you could shoot more people before getting caught. Places not so close to the police station, right? Right. Part of it was that I was comfortable in the movie theater. It was a place I was used to.

Tell me more about that. I hadn't heard about that before. Well, I did all the recon there to get familiar with the layout. But you could have done recon somewhere else, further from a police station. True, but I kind of decided that was the place to be. You chose a place near a police station. Why do you suppose you chose a place near a police station? I didn't choose it for that reason. I disagree. I think that was one of the reasons you chose it.

Oh. Then it might be unconscious. I'd like you to speculate with me. Except for a moment my hypothesis that at least part of the reason you chose that was because it was close to a police station. Why might you have chosen it close to a police station? I have no idea. Think about it for a minute. Because I wanted to be stopped. Well, he took 12 lives before he was, quote, stopped.

Now, listen to KRDO-TV's Crystal's story. His eyes are wide, but his voice is emotionless. This is all the incendiary devices I made. He recalls the mass shooting he committed at this movie theater in Aurora. 13 people murdered, 70 more injured. But in these interviews, he doesn't know the difference between them. Did you make any attempt to shoot certain kinds of people, men, women, big, small? I don't know, just people in the theater. He says his plot to kill innocent people was meant to be random. Because it was impersonal. It was something I

could actually do. I was more going for the people who were shocked, were misfortunate because there are like thousands of thousands of theaters and seats and they were in the wrong one at the wrong time. His reason for taking the lives of so many. But if you kill them, then you're not dealing with them. You're avoiding them. Just a few weeks later, we find Holmes in a different room where he has a lack of empathy for what he did. Well, it was only one event.

The rest of my life was okay. The man we see in these rooms is far different from the killer pictured in his mugshot, red hair and wide eyes. But his difference in demeanor didn't change the outcome. To Karen Stark, psychologist joining us from Manhattan at KarenStark.com. Karen, now that you've heard his voice and you hear him, no empathy. It's like he, quote, didn't want to deal with people. What do you make of it?

What's your analysis? Well, that's what I was trying to describe to you, Nancy. That's that aspect that's so common. If you listen to the Ted Bundy tapes that have been recently released. It's the same flat affect, that lack of tone and emotion. I just did it. Maybe it was unconscious that I wanted to be caught. He just doesn't care. That's the whole thing.

He's just out there to create as much damage as he can, but without any kind of impotence. It really shows how much feelings have nothing to do with this at all. As they were leaving, he witnessed a baby, an infant, get shot. But yeah, they said gas bombs as they were leaving, and then just gunshots all over the place. He came in and he started lighting a gas can and he threw it into the crowd. At that point he shot his first fire into the ceiling to scare everybody and they just started scattering and mass chaos just happened. He pointed

the gun at you. Did you see him looking at you? He just pointed the gun directly at my face. I was just terrified and I just jumped into the aisle and just started crying. How far was he standing from you? About four or five feet. It was a few seconds before he started to move, and those few seconds were when it took us to figure out that he wasn't joking. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You are listening to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You are listening to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Our country will never forget that Aurora Police Dispatch.

Listen. Aurora 911, where is your emergency? I can't hear you. What address? Colorado. I can't hear you. Can you? 50 over in Colorado. Okay. Sir, I can't hear you. Do you need the address again? There's one, sir. What address? Sir, I can't hear you. What address?

Say it loud. Oh, my stars. Take a listen. Unable to find a job, Holmes moved to Colorado last fall and appeared to be nothing more than a quiet and easygoing graduate student. But it was a different Jim Holmes who showed up at the San Diego pawn shop where the owner says Holmes sought tips on firing the guns he had planned to use. We carry all of those firearms in stock. Very specifically remember James Holmes' face. Last night, neighbors at his Aurora apartment building said they heard loud techno music coming from his apartment, with the recorded sounds of gunshots added in.

Holmes was already at the theater at the time. What's odd is what really brought up the red flags for us is the apartment complex is very quiet. There's no noise, nothing. And then all of a sudden, you know, yesterday night or midnight this morning, music starts up out of nowhere. That was kind of odd because no one throws parties in that apartment. And then Holmes apparently attempted to make himself into the Joker character of the Batman series, according to a briefing given to the New York City Police Commissioner, Raymond Kelly. He had his hair painted red. He said he was the Joker.

You are hearing our friend at ABC, Brian Ross, as he is reporting on the Aurora mass shooter, James Egan Holmes, also known, calling himself the Dark Knight. He was speaking with David Casper, the owner of the San Diego pawn shop, where Holmes purchased some of the weapons and ammunition. To Stephen Lampley, former detective, what do you make of him decorating himself to be the Joker in Batman? Well, actually, this guy is obviously, as the psychiatrist said,

he's mentally unbalanced, but he's sane. I mean, he was sane, but he's got some mental, obvious mental issues that he's had back from. I mean, he was sane, but he's got some mental, obvious mental issues that he's had back from, I think, 11 years old when he tried to commit suicide the very first time. He's obviously wanting to, he was into action figures. He was into that realm, into that thing anyway, as he told the psychiatrist. I'm assuming he was just wanting to portray himself and perhaps go out as that

character. Listen to this. Felice Holmes told them he was extremely calm throughout the evening because he had taken the powerful painkiller Vicodin about two hours before the attack. His final step, Felice, was to booby trap his apartment, which they say was so full of chemicals and incendiary devices that it may be days before the bomb squad can figure out how to defuse them. I see an awful lot of wires, trip wires, jars full of ammunition, jars full of liquid, some things, things that look like mortar rounds. We have a lot of challenges to get in there safely. As with all mass shootings, victims and their families are left wondering why.

Experts say in such cases, parents often know without specifics that something is wrong. You're hearing the Aurora Police Chief Daniel Oates speaking to Brian Ross at ABC News. He had the place so booby-trapped, Karen Stark, and then he pled insanity. He claimed the defense was insanity, Karen Stark. How can you go do recon at a multiplex? How can you go to the pawn shop and buy all these guns and ammo? How can you booby trap your apartment to play disorienting techno music with gunshots laid in?

Booby trap it for when the cops finally do get there. And be insane, Karen Stark. Oh, Nancy, he was having a ball. This has nothing to do with insanity. He picked the Joker because the Joker was such a devious character. And this guy was enjoying getting it over the police, booby-trapping and making everybody wonder what was going on. That's not insanity.

He knew exactly what he was doing, and he wanted to get as many people as he could, and he wanted people to see him as this ingenious, devious character. That's why he called himself the Joker. To John Lindley, what more can you tell me about how he dressed up as the Joker and about that arsenal of weapons? Well, there at the theater, you could see none of the Joker costume that he had on because he was completely covered in essentially tactical riot gear. He was all in black. He wore a gas mask, a ballistic helmet, bullet resistant leggings, throat protector, groin protector, tactical gloves. And he threw

these two canisters into the theater as soon as he walked in. And, of course, everybody thought this was part of a show, that it was part of some sort of publicity stunt for the movie. But then very quickly they realized these canisters of smoke are making their eyes burn and their skin itch. He then starts firing, first into the ceiling, then into the crowd. He fired a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 semi-automatic rifle. That eventually malfunctioned, so he switched to a Glock 22.40 caliber. He shot first at the back of the room. One witness said that she was hesitant to leave because someone yelled that, you know, someone was actually shooting in the lobby too. All said, Holmes fired 76 shots into the theater, six from the shotgun, 65 from that semi-automatic, and five from the.40 caliber. With me, John Lindley,

CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Karen Stark psychologist. At KarenStark.com, Stephen Lampley, renowned detective, and Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, and anchor. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Take a listen to our friends Colleen Succaro and Chase Golightly at KRDO. It's been seven years since the tragic Aurora Theater mass shooting and new disturbing details in what was going through the shooter's mind leading up to the tragic mass shooting that killed 13 people and injured 70 more. We're getting a look at James Holmes' psychiatric evaluation. It's several sit-downs between him and a judge-ordered psychiatrist.

KRDO News Channel 13's Crystal Story has been digging through to see what we can find out. James Holmes takes a seat in his green jumpsuit. His psychiatrist, Dr. William Reed, who we only see for a second, is there to see if this now convicted killer was sane. At that point, you had decided that you were a murderer? Um,

that I was going to be. Guys, we were discussing the release of hours of audio and video of the so-called Dark Knight, James Holmes, who massacred 12, I've been saying 12, but there was an unborn child who also died, so you sometimes hear the number 13, at a cineplex in the small town of Aurora, Colorado, sending shockwaves through the country.

James Holmes calling himself the Dark Knight, dressing up as the Joker that evening in tactical gear. He was armed to the teeth. He had been amassing weapons for some time. Prosecutors released audio video of the, dark knight james holmes speaking to his psychiatrist listen i think you said you had never fired a gun before you ordered these these weapons is that right um i'd fire like a paintball gun but no like fire on which was the very first one that you fired and put no fire on. Which was the very first one that you fired? The other guns that you bought?

It was either the handgun or the assault rifle. That would have been out at Byers? Out at Byers. Byers was the only place. That was the only place I chopped them, except this one. So, the Glock 22, next was the shotgun, next was the second Glock or the AR? The AR. The AR, and then the second one.

Right. No other weapons were purchased, and I believe, no more firearms. Right. Okay. Do you think that you didn't fire any of them until you had the AR? That depends on when the ammunition came in. Because I think I started buying the ammunition after I bought the AR. Okay. Did you purchase any ammunition? What one?

Like a cartridge or a box of shotgun shells. Okay. And I guess what I'm trying to understand is the first time you went to Byers, how many of the weapons did you have? A lot of them or just a couple? All of them, I would say. All of them. So you had all or nearly all the weapons before you fired any of them? Right.

You know, Karen, despite the fact that he pled insanity because where else could he go it wasn't me despite him claiming he was insane after all of these hours of psychiatric interviews he was deemed to be sane karen start why because he knew exactly what he was doing and he enjoyed it nancy it took months for him to set that up. And it was very dramatic. This was fun for him. This is how he gets off. Just going out there, killing people. He knew what he was doing.

We all can see that. We are dissecting hours and hours of audio video of the so-called Dark Knight, James Holmes, the Aurora Cineplex mass shooter claiming the lives of 13. He said, quote, he didn't know whether to die or drive away or where he would go. He left it up to the spur of the moment. Then he says he felt, quote, uncomfortable being handcuffed when police found him. Let's take a listen to the so-called dark night in his own words. Among the things that you described as symptoms or things that were happening to you in June or July,

in terms of symptoms, were brief periods of invincibility. Remember that? Yeah, when I was driving to the gym, that kind of thing felt invincible. You know, I got hurt. Tell me about that. Well, I just did that. Tell me in more than half a sentence.

Brief periods of invincibility. It would usually happen when I was driving. So I'd go over the speed limit to that. Okay. Okay. Invincibility in what context? That I couldn't be hurt. In terms of having an accident, or in terms of bulletproof, or in terms of superheroing?

Any of those. Right after that, brief periods of invincibility, comma, actions are in hyperspeed. Yeah, time would seem to speed up. In what way? Tell me about that. Well, it just seemed like I was going places faster, doing things faster.

Okay. How much faster? Twice as fast. Twice as fast? Twice as fast. No faster than that? Not too much faster, I guess. And you're getting exactly what I was getting at. If I watch a video at twice speed, it looks a certain way, the movements are recognizable, you can figure out what's going on right so it would still be

at the one speed but it would feel like the hyper speed these audio video recordings just released but how did we get here this is an abc news special. At least 14 dead, 50 injured. A lot of those injuries are severe after a lone gunman opens fire in a theater outside of Denver, Colorado, in Aurora. And we want you to listen, actually, to this cell phone video that's just now coming into the ABC Newsroom. This will be the first time that we've actually seen or heard this video. So take a listen. You can hear the panic and hear the chaos. You can see kind of the folks scrambling to get out of what must have been a horrible scene. And it just brings back these memories of Columbine. It brings back memories of Virginia Tech, these other mass shootings that the country has seen in recent years.

And just makes you, again, as always, wonder what could have been the motivation. Who was this guy? Why would he do this? And what appears at this point, again, to be a very well-planned attack, not only because of this explosive device he brought in, this canister, which reportedly could have been tear gas. He came with multiple weapons. He had explosives allegedly back in his apartment. This was obviously not someone who snapped on the spur of the moment. This was someone who plotted this for whatever reason. We do not know just yet, but this was someone who deeply intended to inflict harm and take life. And so far he has taken 14 of them.

You were in the third row. And so was he, as he's coming, does he stand there or does he continue to move the entire time? He continued to move, but it was a few seconds before he started to move. And that, those few seconds were when it took us to figure out that he, he wasn't joking. Cause I, I did immediately think that he was joking. I thought that the canister that he threw into the audience was like a smoke bomb or like some firework. I thought that the rifle was maybe like a Roman candle that he was shooting off. And then I realized that as you looked at the rifle, it wasn't a piece of flame shooting from the barrel. It was the bullet igniting out of the barrel.

Did you then start to ingest whatever was in that canister? No, he threw it behind the lower section of the theater. So it all pretty much rose to the higher, the lifted seats. We were really, really lucky to not get that in our faces. It eventually traveled down, but at the very, very end, and it was diluted at that point, so it wasn't as strong. Did you guys get any injuries at all? Nothing too big. I just have scrapes and stuff, but nothing huge. So you're in front, and I imagine there aren't as many people that are as close as you are.

People usually sit back. So are you witnessing, are you seeing what's going on? Are you seeing people falling and people being injured? Yeah, if you looked back, you could see all the people getting shot. I mean, you could see people falling, you know, down the stairs. People, you know, kids and women and children screaming. You could hear it. I mean, even though it was really loud and the movie was still going and there was a lot of gunshots, and it was really hard to tell what was happening where. I mean, if you were to look back, you could see it all,

but I kept my head down. There was this one guy who was on all fours crawling. There was this girl spitting up blood. There were bullet holes in some people's backs, some people's arms. There was this one guy who was stripped down to just his boxers. It looked like he had been shot in the back or something. It was, it was crazy. I'd say we were about 15 minutes in and there was a chase scene where there was gunfire on screen. And right then out of nowhere on the right side of us, we just hear the low, very distinct pop,

pop, pop, pop. And you know, my wife jumped and I kind of sat there and was like, oh, it's probably just really good special effect, you know, sound effects. And my you know, my wife jumped and I kind of sat there and was like, oh, it's probably just really good special effect, you know, sound effects. And my wife said, no, that's really distinct. She said that a man about six feet tall, taller than her, kicked through the door and he was in, she said, a riot helmet. She said he had a bulletproof vest on. You know, she said that he was completely covered in all black with goggles. And she said that after that point, when she saw that he was holding a shotgun, her and her boyfriend dropped to the floor and just kind of started to crawl to see if they

could get away. They got up and they started to run through the emergency exit. She said that when she turned around, all she saw was the guy slowly making his way up the stairs and just firing at people, just picking random people. Karen Stark, this has got to be like salt being poured in the wound of all the victims' families. Yet, on the other hand, it's public information and the public has a right to know this, but how will this affect the crime victim's families? It's hard to imagine that it could be any worse for them than it already is, Nancy. I mean, what they can see is that there

was no particular reason for why this happened. This was the highlight of this guy's life. He did this. He wanted to create this sensation. And unfortunately for them, their family was part of a plan that had nothing to do with human beings, with continued life, with the love of life. And it was just terrible, terrible agony and misfortune that they were a part of this. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.