Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEAR IT! 9-1-1 Call when baby disappears. What does it reveal? Plus man murdered over imaginary girlfriend?

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

A mother calls 911 to report her 2-week-old baby is missing. The infant was found dead in woods near her home and the father is accused of murdering of tiny Caliyah. Nancy Grace examines the 911 call with crime scene expert Sheryl McCollum, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, psychologist Caryn Stark and reporter Leigh Egan. A mentally ill Florida man shot his mother’s friend after accusing the man of hitting on his imaginary girlfriend. The shooter was found dead after a shoot out with police. Nancy discusses the case with Morgan, psychologist Dr. Tiffany Sanders, forensics expert Karen Smith and reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray, Saturdays, 7, 6 Central and 9, 8 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The search is on for a missing two-week-old baby. She was only 15 days old, but even in that short time,

Tim Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Kalia McNabb. She was tiny. You had to feed her every two hours. Changed her little diapers in. Her little head was about the size of a tennis ball. Her parents said they fed and changed her at 5 a.m. Saturday.

They reported her missing at 10 that morning. Neaton, Johnny, I want you to see emergency. I just woke up. My dog woke me up on the couch. I have a two-year-old and I have two-week-olds. My two-week-old is not in her sleep or her paci is on the floor. She's not in her sleep or she's not here. I don't know who got my kid, man, but I want my kid back, man. That's my child, man. I want my kid, man. But I want my kid back, man. That's my child, man. I want my kid, man.

You know, typically when there's a newborn, there are balloons in the front yard. There is a celebration. There's a flurry of texts and emails and baby photos that go out. Instead, when Kalia McNabb was just 15 days old, she goes missing. What happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and we want answers. I want you to first listen to the 911 call. Neaton County 911, what's your emergency? I just woke up.

My dog woke me up on the couch. call. closing everything. What's your address? 12145. Highway 36. 31. Yes. 31. Do you think somebody took her ma'am? My child said my two year old said she's gone. And I looked everywhere in the house. So I don't I don't know another possibility. What lot number are you at? 31. Okay. And you said you were sleeping, woke up, and she was gone? Yes. My two-year-old came and woke me up. Okay. That's all that's going to count. How old is she, ma'am? Two weeks old.

Okay. Okay. Who else would have come in your house? I mean, as far as I know, nobody would have came in my house. My two-year-old says Papa, but I called my dad and I called my grandparents, and they don't have her. My dad's on the way here now okay all right how long have you been sleep the last time I woke up with her was around I

guess five maybe okay so you were sleep since 5 o'clock? Yes. I didn't even mean to fall asleep on the couch. I sat down for a minute after dealing with her on the roof. Can you tell if someone's been there? Is her blanket there or gone? Her blanket's gone. Her patsy's here on the floor. Her blanket's not with us. I don't know where. I mean, I don't know. I guess it's with her. Okay. And I have clothes in totes, but I've looked all in on it. She's not here. Anything else missing, like a baby bag that she would have or anything else? No. Her bottle's here on top of my shelf.

Okay. What about your baby bag? No, it's in my bathroom of my shelf. Okay. No, it's in my bathroom on my vanity. I'm sorry. Ma'am? Huh? What about anything else that could possibly have gone, like, could be hers that could have gone with it? Um, no. Nothing else.

Just her and her blanket. Okay, so the only thing that's. Just her and her blanket. Okay, so the only thing that's missing is her and her blanket. Yeah. And you didn't talk to the dad or grandma or anybody? Our dad was here. Okay, stop right there, Alan Duke, if you don't mind. He's walking around the park looking for her. Thanks.

I'll pick up the rest in just one moment. With me right now, Director of the Cold institute cheryl mccullum death scene investigator forensics expert joseph scott morgan professor at jacksonville state university psychologist out of new york karen stark and crime online investigative reporter lee egan cheryl mccullum i'm going to go back to the 911 call because that's where we start every investigation as we try to establish a timeline. This is around 10 a.m. in the morning. The mom says she last saw her at five o'clock. But I've got a lot of questions I want to throw at you. Now let me just start with, I've been dealing with her all night, says the mother. I've been dealing with her. I've been

dealing with her all night. When I say, and maybe I'm projecting, but when I say, you know, you're going to have to deal with that. Correct. I'm dealing with it. Deal with it. Cope with it. Handle it. That's not a positive thing. It is not positive.

That's my interpretation. That leaked out at me. If anybody says deal with that they mean handle something that's not right that's not good no question about it the very first thing that leaked out at me is you always want to know where the person chooses to start their 9-1-1 call she chooses to let you know hey i just woke up my two-year-old woke me up she's letting you know I'm building an alibi people I was asleep so I can't possibly know anything so right off the bat I'm concerned because you would expect to hear a friend you know what hold on wait let me let me just let

that soak in a moment because I'm feeling it in my skin actually I can feel what you're saying because the hair on my arms going up because I've told you this story all of you've heard it don't whine that when John David went missing at the super store toys or us or babies or us I turned around I looked two or three aisles. I didn't see him. I didn't walk up to a guy or a woman in the little smock top. I said, hey, I was back there with my other baby, and I was nowhere. No, I started screaming, my baby boy's gone. Lock the doors now. Screaming.

I mean, hysteria. It sounded like I had a siren in my throat. Right. I hear what you're saying. And again, this mother has not been charged. She is not a person of interest. She is not a suspect. She certainly hasn't gone in front of a jury and been convicted.

We're talking about the 911 call. Okay, Cheryl, I'm rejecting my feelings onto her. Now, let me go back to your analysis. But you expect to hear somebody frantic, Nancy. You expect for her to be screaming. You never hear this mother ask for help. You never hear her say, hurry, please get here. I need you.

Never. In part, she's extremely calm. She says, I've even looked under clothes. I've looked in toes. That's not possible. That didn't even make sense to me right there. Karen Stark, psychologist, joining me, very well-known psychologist out of New York City.

Karen Stark, to say, I looked in the tote bag, like, that doesn't even make sense to me. The baby can't even turn over. It's just 15 days old. It doesn't. It can't even move. Well, to me, that's... Why would she say, I looked in the tote bag?

That's ridiculous. That's another giveaway. That's another giveaway, Nancy. I feel like it's just coming out of her without her even beginning to realize what she's saying. Also, you notice how often she keeps saying, my two-year-old told me, my two, like the two-year-old is in charge of this situation. The two-year-old noticed it. The two-year-old said Papa was involved. And then she says, but you know, Papa is my grandfather or could be my father. And everything is about the two-year-old let's

analyze this two years old that's a baby Cheryl McCollum before I play more of it what more did you notice in the first part she says she's gone the blanket quiver she notices the pacifier on the floor which would not even be on anybody's register if they noticed the baby's not in the crib. But she keeps going back to the blanket. So that tells you the blanket is going to be with the baby. She flat says the blanket's with her. But she cannot utter the word she's missing, somebody kidnapped her. She's not using words like that at all.

Well, I would notice the Patsy I would notice the Patsy on the ground I would notice the Patsy on the floor I would notice that uh and I'd probably be screaming the Patsy's here but she's not um I might notice the blanket was gone but when you have a little baby you've got a ton of blankets usually you know everybody gives you a blanket and I would probably know I don't know that i would notice the blanket was gone but i hear what you're saying i don't hear any frantic my baby's gone my baby's gone no here the two-year-old told me i was asleep i had to i've been dealing with her all night i looked in a tote bag of clothes and she's not in there as if she would be okay guys let's hear the

rest of this 911 call listen what about anything else that could possibly have gone like could be hers that could have gone with it um no nothing else just her and her blanket okay so the only thing is missed that's missing is her and her blanket yeah he didn't talk to the dad or grandma or anybody her dad was here with me. Dad just left, and he's walking around the park looking for her. Because my two-year-old says, I asked her, did somebody come in and take her? And she said, yeah, but I don't, you know, she's two, so I don't know if I can believe that or not. Did you look through everything, like under the bed?

Yes, ma'am. The bathrooms? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Okay. All right. What's your name ma'am? Courtney Bell. C-O-R-T-N-E-Y-B-E-L-L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've been on the way out there. I'm just getting this information to update them. Okay. Thank you so much.

What's your phone number? Um, I'm not sure of this number uh my phone busted the other day um this is my grandmother's phone she's been letting me use all right so you and the dad both i'm just trying to get an understanding so i can let them know because uh of the questions that they're asking me you and the dad both were sleeping or he just came back home no me and him woke up together she woke us up up together. Okay. The two-year-old woke y'all up and told y'all that the baby was gone? Yes. Okay. She was kind of freaked out.

I mean, I don't know. Because she was just standing there beside the couch in the corner. And I told her, come here. And I loved on her. And then I told my baby's dad to go check on Kalia and then he's talking about she's not in here she's not in here okay well the police should be in the area now thank you I'll go ahead and let you go okay thanks okay Cheryl McCollum I don't understand something is that the two-year-old in the background going, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy? Is that what I'm hearing? I can't tell. That's exactly. Yep, that's what you're hearing. And Nancy,

you notice she changes her story in the 911. I heard it. She originally says, the two-year-old woke me up, said the baby's gone. Then she says, I sent the dad to go check on the baby, and he said she was gone. And then she hit says the two-year-old told me that but i didn't know whether or not i should believe it okay your baby's gone you missed one you missed one that she was standing in the corner between the sofa in the corner did i hear her say she was trying to sneak out she said she was freaked out freaked out okay that the baby's standing between the sofa and the corner and she loved on her and then then sent the dad to go get kalia and that's when the baby's the two-year-old said she's not there and at the end she goes thank you so much yeah i mean

that's what i taught that's what i say to the verizon person when i she goes, thank you so much. Yeah. I mean, that's what I say to the Verizon person when I pay my bill. Thank you so much. Right. I mean, I have more feeling when I'm trying to arrange a Delta flight at the end. I'm like, thank you so much. Well, can I point out one more thing, Nancy? Yeah. She says dad is out walking around.

Yeah, I heard that. I couldn't tell what she was saying. I made a note of that. Walking around? Yeah, I heard that. I couldn't tell what she was saying. I made a note of that. Walking around. But why? Because I can hear the little two-year-old going, daddy, daddy, daddy. And why would they be walking around outside? The baby can't even turn over.

Why would they think she's out on the swing set? Same reason she said she thought she could be in the toes. Same reason she said she looked under clothes. Guys, we have more evidence that we are sifting through, but I want to thank our partner making this program on Sirius XM 132 possible today in our search for justice and for baby Kalia. It's LegalZoom. As a business owner, you know how important it is to keep moving forward. But things come up that take your time and focus away from growing your business.

So when it comes to reviewing contracts, registering trademarks, staying current on fees and permits, LegalZoom.com can simplify your life. LegalZoom has helped over 2 million business owners easily and affordably navigate the legal system with confidence. And you never have to worry about an attorney's billable hours stacking up. LegalZoom's not a law firm. Instead, you get the advice you need to answer your business questions at fixed rates through LegalZoom's nationwide network of independent lawyers. So go to LegalZoom.com now to take care of business before the year winds down. And for special savings, be sure to enter code Nancy in the referral box at checkout, LegalZoom.com. We're going straight back to the disappearance of baby Kalia, just 15 days old. What's so odd about it, Joseph Scott Morgan? Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, forensics expert

professor at Jacksonville State University, is that the minute the baby is found in these very peculiar circumstances out in the woods in a tote bag, interesting, and I'm going to go back to Cheryl in a moment and Karen and Lee Egan about the tote bag. We hear tote bag, tote bag, tote bag all the way through the 911 call. Joseph Scott Morgan, isn't the baby found in a tote bag in the woods? And the moment the dad finds out about it, instead of falling down an angle, she screams out, I didn't do it?

Yes, yes, that's absolutely correct, Nancy. And this is a very important point here. Found within the tote bag, when the initial reports came out, they were just saying, you know, baby was wrapped in a blanket and placed in some brush or beneath a log. I think that came out. However, this is really important, Nancy, and we need to pay close attention to this. The child's body is inside of a tote bag and wrapped in a blanket. Now, from an evidentiary standpoint, this is monumental because that acts almost like a cocoon where it protects the evidence that could be found associated with a body. So this is going to be very important going forward. You know, I'm thinking about another issue. And Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute.

You know, I look back on all the murders, the homicides, the manslaughter that I've investigated, covered, tried, pled, the works. I mean, I don't know how many thousands. And that sounds crazy crazy like a crazy number but think about it Cheryl every week in the district attorney's office in a felony courtroom I'd get about 100 new cases every week sometimes twice a week right because the grand jury meet twice a week and so you multiply that times four weeks a month times 12 months times 10 years that's thousands of homicides think about it and when it's a random case think about it think about it you find the body right there carjacking it's right there in the parking lot it's right there in the driveway the

body's just laying there um once in a great while, you'll find the body move. Very rarely will a random killer neatly put the baby in a baby blanket, wrap it up, put it in a tote, and lay it out in the woods. That's not how a random murder happens. I can't really, I don't know why. I just know that that's true. Absolutely. You're warning us to believe that a stranger came in and took that kind of time as well. Nancy, there's two things that are going to help with the timeline.

That baby's diaper, right? That's going to show, was the baby changed and fed at 5 a.m. or not? I can tell you're a mom. Yeah. It's the baby's diaper, okay? Hey, but it's key, right? And the other thing that I think is going to come back to, you know, bite the mom a little bit in this 911 call is she never gave the baby's description.

Oh, my stars. You're right. I mean, I can tell you right now what the twins's description. Oh, my stars. You're right. I mean, I can tell you right now what the twins are wearing. I can even tell you, call me crazy, Karen Stark, I can even tell you what color their socks are and their underwear because I laid it out last night.

Mm-hmm. I can tell you right now. Nobody's asking me, so I won't go into it. Yeah, you know what? You're right. Lee Egan, what more do we know? I noticed the little two-year-old, according to the mom, said Papa did it. That's the two-year-old's grandfather, the mom's dad.

But in the background, you hear the little two-year-old going, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. What do we know about the grandfather? The two-year-old is in the grandfather, you hear the little two-year-old going, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, what do we know about the grandfather? The two-year-old is in the grandfather's custody right now, so he's not considered a person of interest. Okay, and again, she has not been charged. She's not named as a suspect, a person of interest at all at this juncture. Karen Stark, what about Cheryl McCollum's observation? She never said what the baby was wearing or what the baby even looked like.

And she never mentioned the baby's name as far as I can recall. But she also listened to her voice, Nancy. As you said, there's no hysteria. There's no, she's being so polite. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And no, my baby is missing. You don't hear that. You don't hear her getting crazy over the fact that this baby is only two weeks and she's checking a tote.

I've got so many notes. I hardly know where to start. Speaking of the grandfather, listen to what he has to say. She was tiny. You know, you had to feed her every two hours, changing little diapers. And her little head was about the size of a tennis ball there. She was so little, you know, from the first time that you pick them up, their love there, that love is broken. I mean, it hurts like I have never heard before. Now, that is what you're hearing from the maternal grandfather. Okay, now keep in mind, you never know what if any bad blood is between the wife's father and the husband. Okay, so we don't know their history. We don't know why he feels the way he does about the dad. I'm talking about Christopher McNabb,

who as soon as he hears the baby Kalia is missing and that she's found, he goes, I didn't do it. That's the first thing he says. Okay, let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan, death scene investigator and professor of forensics. Joe Scott, please evaluate the documents we've just gotten from the courthouse. There's actually, as stark as they might be, there's actually a wealth of information in here.

And let me address this. The police in their affidavit had stated that, and this is rather graphic, Nancy, but the reality is they're saying that this poor baby's skull was absolutely decimated and crushed. Okay. What they do say in here is that, and it's key, they're saying that the baby was struck by an unknown object. They're not saying hands, they're not saying fist they're not saying fist they're saying that it was wielded the police are that the the object was wielded by this father what that means is they've identified something we don't know what it is yet and they they might be able to marry up a pattern here and they're taking an object and putting it in his hand. And that's key because this isn't like a random striking event where you see somebody that will ball up a fist.

This is somebody that took the time to go get an object and then perpetrate this kind of trauma, this lethal trauma on this little angel. I have a very young relative that was hit by a van as a child. And the damage to the skull was just almost, well, we didn't know that he was going to live. I'm happy to say he graduated with honors from college and a double major. So he's brilliant. But I remember that damage, that horrible damage to his head. I'm thinking about a little baby

laying in the crib. And how this whole thing, Cheryl McCullough, must have gone down. How did the mom not know? She heard the baby screaming or the two-year-old didn't run into her room. Well, I can't help it, Cheryl. I guess I'm projecting again because that's the single, I mean, you know my story.

That's the single most important thing to me on earth. Right. Those babies, my babies. Nancy, there's no way that she didn't hear the baby crying, and then the crying immediately stopped, and he's running around getting the blanket, getting the tote bag, leaving. There's no way she's not in some way full of knowledge about what happened inside that home.

Hell, the two-year-old knows it. How does she not? I'm just sick, sick about it. Joe Scott Morgan, can we go back to what we've learned about the MO, the method of operation, the modus operandi, or what we know about cause of death, manner of death, what exactly do we know? Well, they're not being very specific, and let's keep in mind this is coming from the police, not the medical examiner. This is being told to us by the police department. What we do know is that this appears to be

blunt force trauma. Another big piece here is that if this injury is as bad as they're saying that it is, Nancy, I believe that there will be transfer of evidence from that child's body, and I'm talking specifically like blood evidence that would have wound up back on the perpetrator of this event, this horrible, horrible crime. And that is something they're going to have to look at very, very carefully. I just hope that the clothing of this individual has been sequestered, that he was not allowed to bathe. I hope that they took very, very detailed documentary photographs of this individual as well and examined him from stem to stern. Well, I'm also thinking, Karen Stark, about what the two-year-old may have seen

and could possibly relay because you hear her in the background saying, Daddy, Daddy, as the mom's talking to 911. You hear the two-year-old going, Daddy, Daddy. And you hear her talking. You hear them talking about the fact. You hear the mother saying the two-year-old told her. And when you think about two years old, how traumatic that is, Nancy, remember when the twins were two? That's so young.

They still remember things from when they were two, by the way. Of course they do. I want you to hear one more piece of evidence that we have right now of a convenience store clerk that came upon the father, Christopher McNabb. He just came in and he said, hey, you remember me from last night? And I said, no, sir. He said, you sure? I said, yes, sir. He said, remember, my baby's the one that got kidnapped.

And I said, y'all don't leave me. Y'all don't leave me. That's him. That's him. And they were standing there. And I said, please sure? I said, yes, sir. He said, remember, my baby's the one that got kidnapped. And I said, y'all don't leave me. Y'all don't leave me. That's him. That's him. And then they was standing there. And I said, please don't leave me. And then he started hollering and talking about, they're going to get me. They're going to get me.

I've been running all day. I've been in the woods all day. And I tried to call 911. And it wouldn't go through. And I called again. It wouldn't go through. And then the third time I called, it went through. And he's still standing here.

And I said, he said, they're not going to get me. He said, anybody trust them with me, they're going to get in trouble too. And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you like that, you know. And then he went to the door and when he went to the door, I hit it again and got 911. And the harm? I called 911 again and I got him and I said he's here, he's at 36 at the Chevron, he's in my store, he's going crazy, I don't know what his problem is, but he said he was running from the cops, he'd been hid in the woods all day. I said he's really scary, somebody needs to get here quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is dead, what does that mean to you? He's considered a person of interest. He is a person of interest. But he kept saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, we didn't do it, they did it. And y'all are going to be surprised when y'all find out who really did it. But I didn't do it. And you're hoping that somebody comes forward because they're still there.

No, I was just hoping they wouldn't leave me in the store by myself. Because, I mean, you know, you just listen to what people say. He came to the register. You know, he said something to the cashier. I couldn't help him because he's got a muscle. But then he turned around and he bad-jobbed. He looked at everybody, me and Cat. Come here, Cat.

Because Cat was right there. And come here, Cat, and his dog. You know, man looked at us and said, I'm telling all y'all, they're looking for me and I've been hiding in the woods. He said, but I didn't do it. I just want the world to know I didn't do that to my baby. And young man looked like he was exhausted and whatever. This man looked like he was running in fear. But sometimes, you know, you just got to stop and talk to the police. Let them know what's really going on. But he said, he said, I'm telling the world and everybody in this store, I didn't kill my baby.

I didn't do that. He said, I didn't do that. Because I told him, I said, well, sir, what happened to your child, you know? And he got out of the store so fast. And then that's when me and Kyle talked to the lady and Kat told her to call the police. And then she called the police and automatically they came out here. And now we travel to Florida where a man guns down. Hold on. I hope you're sitting down for this. A man guns down another man for making a pass at his imaginary girlfriend.

Let me let that soak in just a moment. Alan Duke, first of all, Alan Duke with me, Dr. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist, Karen Smith, forensics expert, and John Limley, crime stories contributing investigative reporter. Alan Duke, an imaginary girlfriend. Can I just tell you something? There was a movie, I'm trying to remember which one it was, where there's a little character, it's a cartoon, and he's always talking about his girlfriend from Canada. He always says, she's real, bro. She's real.

That's not a Google image, bro. She's from Canada. She's gorgeous. And at the bottom it says Google image. It's not a Google image, bro. She's from Canada. She's gorgeous. And at the bottom it says Google image. It's not real. It's not a real girlfriend. She's not from Canada. It's an imaginary girlfriend.

Okay. I think it's coming back to me. I think it was in Stork. I'm not sure. Okay. Back to you, Alan Duke. Imaginary girlfriend. You can go ahead and confess now.

You're married to a beautiful woman. I've seen her. She's real. Yes. Or else he paid somebody a lot of money to pretend it was her. And I've seen the wedding photos. It's real. Yes.

But Alan, come on. You've had an imaginary girlfriend before, right? Yes, I have. Actually, I have. Probably in elementary school. Debbie was sitting across the aisle, the row from me, and I always imagined she was my girlfriend. I think this goes actually beyond Debbie in the first grade.

This is like, not anybody that you've ever met is somebody that doesn't even exist. This guy has an imaginary girlfriend. And this Florida guy, his name is Brian Desario, who's 30 years old, guns down David Armstrong after accusing him of making a romantic advance at his non-existent lover there in Port Ritchie, Florida. Now, this is according to the Tampa Bay Times. They report that the suspect's mother and her boyfriend were there at the time of the shooting. And Pasco County Sheriff Chris Nacco, quote, Please note, Brian does not have a girlfriend.

Okay, in his mind he did, but in reality he didn't. Now, just correction to everybody before tiffany sanders dr tiffany gets cranked up about mental illness on this one pretending you have a girlfriend it's not a mental illness let me just start with that john limley crime stories investigative reporter what happened here well what we know at this point is that by the time all was said and done, there were two dead men. As you mentioned, Brian Desario, a 30-year-old man, he fatally shot 56-year-old David Armstrong, a friend of his mother's, whom he believed was making advances on his girlfriend, this girlfriend that doesn't exist. This happened sometime in the afternoon on Thursday. We understand it was just an hour before classes were to be dismissed at a nearby elementary school. And that elementary school had to be put on lockdown because once

the police arrived, they exchanged gunfire with the suspect right in the middle of the road in heaven i didn't realize alan duke there was a shootout alan you've got a daughter now she's all grown up and beautiful and all that now but you remember when she was a young girl and i've gotten those um texts and emails from the school when they text out to all the parents alert alert I nearly pass out when I get one of those I drop everything I'm doing I don't even read the whole thing then I find out you know there's high winds warning or there are there's a power surge or you know it's never anything serious. But can you imagine a parent getting a text or an email while they're at work

saying, we're in lockdown because there's a mad shooter down the road? Well, truth be told, it was probably my daughter they were texting about. Guys, that's not true. She's perfect in every way. Go ahead. Right. Yeah, no, I've actually been in that situation, and it's the scariest thing in the world. And I remember very clearly when my daughter was in elementary school rushing to school because I got one of those.

It's terrible. Back to John Limley. I don't want to get sidetracked on me getting a text from the children's school when there's a power surge. I want to get back to what is at hand. There is a dead body. There is a dead body. All because of an imaginary girlfriend, John Limley. Tell me how this thing went down, John. Well, what we understand is that the victim, the 56-year-old man, David Armstrong, was a friend of the suspect, Brian Desario's mother, and that he had gone over. They were talking in the garage. Armstrong comes out of the house, and he confronts Armstrong and says, you know, you need to stop hitting on my girlfriend. And apparently opened fire right then and there. But, okay, I want to go to Dr. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist joining us.

Dr. Tiffany, now I know I'm ready for you, doctor. I'm ready for you because I'm just putting it on the record men pretending they have a girlfriend is the oldest oldest trick in the book but i want to ask you first of all why do people pretend they have sweethearts lovers girlfriends whatever why well usually that's something that we do as kids right it's part's part of our general being raised and growing up. No, wait, no, wait. Dr. Tiffany Sanders, a child pretending to have an imaginary friend is a lot different than a grown man acting like he has a lover, all right?

Because I guess I grew up in that age where one of my favorite T-shirts was a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. And I don't know where it came from. I think I stole it from my sister. So, you know, I never pretended I had a boyfriend ever. Either I had one or I was blissfully unattached. What? As a child, we all do that.

I did it. I'm like, I had a friend that was from Puerto Rico. I don't know why I made it from Puerto Rico. Wait, wait, wait, wait. As a child. Wait, I've got to that was from Puerto Rico. I don't know why I made him from Puerto Rico. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I've got to. Okay, Dr. Tiffany, I think I need to bring on a shrink to deal with Dr. Tiffany, who is our shrink.

You didn't just have a friend. You had a friend from Puerto Rico. I called him, you know, some Puerto Rican sounding name. I just thought it was cute. Now, Dr. Tiffany, you know what the name was. What was it? Enrique. I just thought it was cute you know it is cute that is cute and that was but that was as a child and I was watching a lot of news with my parents

so I probably just made some associations but as a grown adult I now love you even more Dr. Tiffany because I've never seen a chink in the armor before. But now that I know you not only had an imaginary friend, but his name was Enrique, I'm totally in love with you now. Go ahead. And he was cute. He was super cute. Super cute. Has to be.

Of course. But in this particular case, this is a man likely dealing with schizophrenia, some form of delusional disorder, paranoia. I asked you about why people pretend they have girlfriend, boyfriends. But that's why. This is someone who was seeing things, hearing things, imagining things. No, I mean regular people, Dr. Tiffany. Regular people that do every shrink I bring on

insist that everybody's mentally ill. Dr. Tiffany, you know how much I respect you, right? But I do not believe that pretending you have a girlfriend is a mental illness. I'm not talking about this guy. I'm asking you again, in general, why do people pretend they have girlfriends slash boyfriends? Why? Well, when you're an adult and you have no friendships, you have poor social skills, you know, you make things up to look normal. And in his mind, he was trying to appear normal. But he started seeing things, shadows, images, something to the extent that he thought that that person was actually he was having conversations likely in his head with that person and and visualize gave him more than a name like I did.

Probably gave him last name and occupation and what have you and then in his mind delusional he saw his friend look like he was making a pass it probably could have been a old refrigerator in the garage and he went loco psycho and you know what dr tiffany you're right because it boiled down to, quote, an absolute gun battle in the middle of the street. I mean, Karen Smith, joining me, forensics expert, you and I have seen a lot of crimes, right? And Karen Smith and I, who's a renowned forensics expert, have actually performed a lot of scientific experiments together. Karen, when you look out your window, you might see the trash truck coming by, or you might see, you know, women in a cluster walking or jogging or whatever.

If you live in a big city, you'll see, you know, cars flying by the front of your place like it's the interstate. But you typically don't see a gun battle in the middle of the street. No, you don't. And that would be not only disconcerting for the neighborhood, but my God, right across from an elementary school, that is terrifying. And what really struck me about this is when I saw the article, this man had one gun that he either emptied completely or it jammed.

And he went back inside and retrieved a second one to finish the job. The victim didn't die right away. He was wounded. And the forensic evidence will show that. And this guy went back in got a second gun and that was the one used in the gun battle and that is what we call clear premeditation premeditation under the law is when you intend the act and intent or malice can be formed in the twinkling of an eye. And that means in the time it takes you to point the gun and pull the trigger, that is time for premeditation under our law across this country to form.

Premeditation or malice murder or murder one does not require a long plan such as poisoning someone over a period of time or a murder for hire where it's intricately planned no premeditation can be formed in an instant and this guy based on what karen smith is telling us along with john limley not only unloaded on the victim but then then went inside, got another gun, and came out, and then finished killing him. He wasn't dead, to start with him. Alan Duke joined me from L.A. Isn't it true, Alan?

This is something you and I both noticed. This guy had a gun collection and a stockpile of ammunition. A stockpile. And if he did have any mental issue, other than claiming he had a girlfriend, an imaginary girlfriend, if he did, why did he have an arsenal, Alan? Can somebody tell me that?

You know, I'd love to have an arsenal of guns. I love guns, but I don't have them because there's no reason for me to have them. I was in the military. I used them then, but I'm just perfectly fine with going to a shooting range sometime and borrowing somebody else's gun. But there are people who love guns. They think that they are their girlfriend, an imaginary girlfriend. Is there maybe their AR-15? That might have been what this guy was doing. Okay, Alan, I actually wish you hadn't said that because now I'm never going to look at you the same way again. When you refer to guns as girlfriends, that's a little freaky.

Well, not me. Not me. Yeah, you said it, Alan. Yes, well, some people love their guns like they're their girlfriends. I don't know. Maybe Dr. Tiffany can tell us, do people get sexual satisfaction out of holding a gun? Okay, you know what? You're scaring me, Alan.

Because other than now, other than the ponytail, I thought you were fairly normal. I'm not in love with guns. Okay, Dr. Tiffany, go ahead and answer him because I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole. Well, you know, it's about what they find is a priority in their life. And so they can treat it like it's a high-ranking member, like a wife, a husband, a girlfriend. Most people don't sexualize objects. For someone to sexualize an object, we have to question their sanity, their mental health. But I do find, like in the Vegas shooter, that the way that that person, you know, loves and respects and they revere their guns and their bullets, that's something to be questioned.

Why would you do that? Like I was saying, unless you're in the military, why are we idolizing that? And for someone who's never been in the military, who's only 30 years old, and you have an arsenal of weapons, that's something to question their mental health with. Well, another issue, Karen Smith, forensics expert, joining me along with John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. First to you, Karen. He did not live alone. So how did his family allow him, if he did have a mental issue, to have an arsenal of guns and ammunition? Why?

Well, from past experience, there's going to be some denial. We didn't know he was stockpiling guns. We didn't know he had all the ammunition. We don't go into his bedroom. That's his sanctuary. That's where he does his thing. That's the story I've heard over and over and over again. It makes me sick. You have a responsibility. This man has a history of mental illness. The family, if he's living there, has a responsibility to make sure that he's safe and the neighborhood is safe. I don't understand how anyone could really have a stockpile, quote-unquote, of ammunition and guns, and other people in the household not know about it. I don't either.

So, okay, here's another issue. Jackie, you're in the household not know about it i don't i don't either so okay here's another issue jackie here in the studio with me john limley maybe you can answer this one jackie wants to know how did this guy pass a background check if he had any mental illness which i'm not convinced of because a lot of guys pretend they have a girlfriend you know the old trick john limley of showing the picture of the girl that comes with the wallet and pretending that she that's actually a photo she gave you absolutely even though she looks like farrah faucet or yes you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah hey you're dating yourself by the way but go ahead go ahead so how did he pass background checks to get guns well this is still still trying to be figured out here.

The suspect did have a history of mental illness. And we're very anxious to know exactly how he was able to go through the individual steps. We do know that once this gun battle took place near the elementary school, The suspect ran back to his mother's home. And it's there that the police set up a perimeter around the home before the suspect was killed. Now, it's not yet clear exactly how he died. A self-inflicted injury of sheriff's robot reportedly found Desario's body in the home before the sheriff crew actually went into the house. Tell me about that, Karen Smith, forensics expert. Karen, how do you process a scene like this? And I guess they sent the robot in.

How does that work? It's so George Jetson. But how does that work to send a robot into a scene i let me just hold on i guess you saw home alone three right i mean who hasn't where there is the little car and it's got the camera on top now see this is how i would explain it to a jury once somebody like karen explained it to me you put a camera on top and you send the robot car in to look around. I'm guessing that's how it worked, but they sent a robot in first. How do you, Karen Smith, you're the forensics expert, how do you go about processing a scene like this and figuring out what went down?

Well, it's going to be meticulous. And the robot, yeah, it has a camera affixed to it, and they use it for disarming bombs. They can use it for surveillance like they did here to find out if the suspect is still holed up and armed or if he's deceased or injured. But what they're going to do is they're going to have to number and label all those shell casings out on the roadway, everything in the garage, deal with the victim at this point. And once they get inside, which is going to be one of the last things they do, they're going to find out if there's gunshot, it's called stippling, which would be indicative of a suicide gunshot. That's the gunpowder that discharges out of the gun. If it's a self-inflicted wound, that will be present if it's a shot that

came through a window. Stippling is different from just gunshot residue. It's actually, you've got the gun so close to your skin, it's a contact wound, and it actually kind of burns the skin a little bit. Right, right. You can either have the powder burns, depending on how far away the muzzle was, that'll be present if it's a self-inflicted wound. If it's not and it was a shot from outside, they'll be able to tell that as well. So that's what we know right now.

The scene is still being processed. And I'm sure the family of the victim is just beside themselves because he did absolutely nothing wrong. David Armstrong suddenly accused of flirting with Brian Desario's imaginary girlfriend is now dead. And while we're talking about it, they're planning a funeral. It's just almost too much to take in. You've got the mother who loses her longtime boyfriend, David Armstrong, and now her son.

And we're talking about him as all of his problems and his imaginary girlfriend. But you know what? Your son is your son. And you love them without question, no matter what, warts and all. And it's just devastation. So there are a lot of questions to be answered.

And I can't think of anyone better than Dr. Tiffany, Karen Smith, John Limley, and the Duke to try to figure it out with me. So, just a little pause. As we go about our business right now, there is a family hurting because of this scenario. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries?

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