Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEAR IT: 911 Operator Berates Drowining Woman

Episode Date: September 4, 2019

Debbie Stevens is delivering morning newspapers when her S.U.V. is swept away by floodwaters. She calls 911 but the operator tells her, "This will teach you next time, don’t drive in the water." Emergency personnel arrive over half an hour later. Stevens drown. Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the callous treatment during an emergency situation is Defense Attorney Jason Oshins, Former FBI Special Agent Jeff Cortese, Medical Examiner Dr. Tim Gallagher, and Psychologist Dr Robi Ludwig. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As Deborah Stevens' SUV filled with water, she made a frantic call to 911. I'm gonna die. It's all the way up to my windows. I'm gonna die. But her desperation didn't seem to make any difference to the dispatcher on the other end of the call. Somebody kill me before I die. I'm sorry. You're not gonna die. I don't know why you're freaking out. The Fort Smith, Arkansas woman was delivering newspapers when she told dispatcher Donna Renaud she was swept away in flash floodwaters. She couldn't swim.

I'm scared. I've never had anything like this happen to me before. This will teach you next time don't drive in the water. Couldn't see it, I'm sorry, or I wouldn't have. I don't see how you didn't see it. You had to go right over it. What an evil woman. Did you hear the woman? Oh, by the way, drowned in her car. And as she's drowning in the water, it's filling up her SUV.

I mean, think about it. I've had to get up super early in the morning to get to work. I mean, you know, Jason Oceans, New York defense lawyer, was with me. I would have to get up at about 4 a.m. in the morning to be at Court TV at 7, bright eyed and bushy tailed and full hair and makeup to hit the airwaves for a morning shift. And you were there with me many times, Jason Oceans. It ain't easy. This woman getting up to deliver papers in the dark morning hours accidentally drives into water. Her car is filling up and the 911 operator is so rude and berates her. The woman who's blubbering and crying says, I'm sorry. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

I think the 911 operator ought to go to jail myself, but I want you to hear it from the horse's mouth. Take a listen to the 911 operator, Donna Reneau, who's listening and berating Deborah Stevens as she drowns dead. out and I'm scared to death ma'am. Can you please help me with that? I need you to calm down. I need you to tell me where you are. I'm on the, I don't know ma'am. I'm on the end of 10k down here by these apartments. There's some apartments on 10k and I don't know what they're called. What color is your vehicle? On the other side of 10k at the very end of 10k street there's some apartments and I thought. Do you have a dark blue car is what I'm asking you? What color is your vehicle? It's gray SUV.

The water's all the way up to my window. Okay, hold on for me. Don't hang up. It's coming in my window. I'm floating in water right now, ma'am. Yes, ma'am, I need help right now. I'm soaking wet. I'm sick, and I don't know what to do, ma'am. Okay, what's your name?

Debbie Stevens. Please help me. I don't want to die do, ma'am. Okay, what's your name? Debbie Stevens. Please help me. I don't want to die. You're not going to die. Hold on for a minute. Well, I need to, I'm scared. I'm sorry. I didn't know the water.

I couldn't see the water when I came up on it, ma'am. It just all of a sudden hit me. Oh, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. To Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter with me, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. You see her all over the TV screen, psychologist and Facebook live show host from Times Square. The medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. FBI special agent, former Jeff Cortese. Renowned defense attorney attorney Jason Oceans.

What a big mess. Dr. Tim Gallagher, let's just kick it off with you. How long does it take an adult to drown? Well, that's a very good question, Nancy. It really, really varies depending on their health and if they have any problems with their lungs or any other diseases. But I would say on the average, we know that irreversible brain damage occurs after three minutes of not being able to breathe. So for someone to enter into the water and be declared dead would probably take a little over three minutes. And this took a period of time, did it not, to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. As I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong, which I know you love to do, Levi Page,

and I give you plenty of opportunity. Levi, didn't this call take 24 minutes before the dispatcher could get EMTs there? Yeah, she was on the phone for 24 minutes with the dispatcher could get EMTs there? Yeah, she was on the phone for 24 minutes with the dispatcher. Mm, mm, mm. Awful, awful. Jason Oceans, a defense attorney, she may need a defense attorney because as far as I'm concerned, the way she treated this dying, drowning victim, a woman who's out trying to make a few extra dollars delivering papers

in the dark morning hours uh-uh i think she ought to go to jail myself jason oceans what's stopping it uh that's a much higher standard uh you would have to associate with her directly with it she and according to the transcripts dispatched right away, no one would take away from her callousness and the fact that Miss Stevens lost her life. It certainly exemplifies the lack of humanity that this dispatcher had on her last day of work, last dispatch. I don't know that it necessarily rises to a level of criminality. Certainly a civil lawsuit against the city is possible. You know what? Why are you talking like that? Jason, you know that I love you.

I love your beautiful wife who used to, I think, book me on MSNBC. That's right. I love your two children. But Jason, you sound like one of those, no offense Jason, obnoxious lawyers. I used to be trapped with them on the elevator. Oh, geez. And I just loved the way

they would talk and blah, blah, blah. And throw in a few Latin phrases. Just cut it. Dummy down for me. Well, it's got to rise to a certain level of intent or lacking intent. Something so

egregious like a criminally negligent homicide. I got neglected 24 minutes that's how long she was on the phone but the dispatch 24 minutes went in five minutes they had a hard time finding her nancy that was a bad storm couldn't exactly locate herself i it's what i understood when the emts got there they could still see her dome lights in the car says a pretty good indicator of where she was and the car would have been above the water when they saw the dome lights. Dr. Robbie Ludwig, psychologist, why are people so afraid of death by drowning? Well, death by drowning is very painful. I mean, to not be able to breathe, to have that moment to know that your

life is slipping away from you is absolutely panic inducing. And it's one of the things we hear all the time that drowning is a silent death. So not only are we afraid of it for ourselves, but we are afraid of it on behalf of other people instinctually. I think what your last word really, to me hit hit the nail on the head instinctually because we are not meant to be, you know, by our nature, underwater. People don't have that same fear of falling off the top of the house or a car crash or something about death by drowning that it just invokes an instinctive fear. I want you to listen to more of the 911 call. Nobody save me. Am I not on the top?

Somebody get me out before I die. I'm sorry. You're not going to die. I don't know why you're freaking out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nobody's taking me. Am I not on the phone with you trying to get you some help? Yes, but you had to get me out before I died.

I'm sorry. You're not going to die. I don't know why you're freaking out. It's okay. I know the water level is high. I understand that, but you're freaking out, doing nothing, but losing your oxygen up in there. But are they not going to come get me?

You said what? I'm sorry. When are they going to be here? As soon as up in there. But are they not going to come get me? You said what? I'm sorry. When are they going to be here? As soon as they get there. Well, how long is that going to be before I die? Yeah, I know. Man, my phone's going to die. They're not going to find me. They're just going to find my brand new phone.

Do you really care about your brand new phone? I mean, you're over there crying for your life. Who cares about your phone? I need to get out. I need to your phone? I need to get down. I need to throw up. I need to throw up right now. Well, then you're in water. You can throw up.

It's not going to matter. If you got to throw up on yourself, they'll still help you. No, my car is going to catch on fire. How, if it's underwater? What an evil woman. That is EMT dispatch Donna Renaud talking to Deborah Stevens out trying to deliver papers in the dark early morning hours there at Fort Smith, Arkansas. She drowned. She drowned begging for help when she was unable to get out of her car to Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent.

How are you supposed to get out of your car if it goes underwater? You know, there are classes you can take to become proficient at getting out of your car while underwater. But, you know, if you just mentally prepare and go through a checklist, you can actually anybody can actually do it under the right circumstances. So, you know, the first thing you want to do is open your window as quickly as you can, keeping your seatbelt on while the car is filling up. So the seatbelt will serve kind of as an anchor holding you in place as the water begins to fill up the car. You're not going to be able to open up the door while the water is flooding in there's going to be too much pressure on the outside so that the vehicle actually has to fill up with water before you're going to be able to open up that door so that the pressure can be equalized on each side prior to i guess the water reaching probably your chin level, you want to start either cutting away or unbuckling your seatbelt. Holding onto the steering wheel is kind of a leverage to force

yourself out of the car. But once that water equalizes inside the car, you know, you hold your breath, get that car door open or go through the window after the car is full. And that deep breath that you take is going to basically serve as a kind of a balloon that'll pull your body to the top of the water. You know, he's absolutely right. Jeff Cortese is very, very difficult to do. But the first thing you're supposed to do, if you can, is open the window as quickly as possible before you hit the water. If you can, or immediately after, Stay completely still until the water in the car goes up to your chin. Take several slow breaths. Hold one. Don't try to open the door until the

water has stopped flooding because there's about 600 pounds of pressure per square inch, meaning you can't get it open from the inside. So long story short, that pressure should equalize and then you try to get out. Now, we always carry something in our cars under the seat that we can smash out a window. Now, here's the thing about that. The water's going to flood in. So once you smash out the window, you're going to be finding like water coming in like from a fire hydrant. It's going to be very hard, but we keep something inside our car. It can be a hammer. It can be anything like that to smash out the window to get out just in case we get in water. The issue here is not how she could have gotten out of the water.

The issue here is a rude, cruel dispatch officer, Donna Renaud, the 911 operator, callously lecturing a drowning woman, telling her quote shut up before she died oh listen to this both apartment complexes on this street at the dead end in the very back side there's a bunch of trees right there she shot a big 801 at the end the back side of these apartments over here where these people are they can all see me. They're all standing out there watching. Miss Debbie, you're going to have to shut up, okay? Okay.

Hello? Did you hear that, Dr. Robbie Ludwig? You're going to have to shut up. Did you hear that? We don't even say the S word in our home. This is so painful to hear because the degree of callousness that this dispatcher is showing is just unimaginable. I mean, it's very easy to identify with this poor victim who truly is about to die. And there is zero empathy.

And to hear that being played out in a truly tragic situation is just so horrific. It really is. And it's hard to know whether part of it has to do with just this woman, this dispatcher, being unwilling to acknowledge the vulnerability that she has in terms of the situation and trying to save this woman, or just she is so burnt out that she has no feeling at all, that she is completely desensitized to other people's pain, which at that point, you really need to get yourself out of that kind of job. Yeah, I agree with you 300% on getting out of the job. I want to go to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, what happens to a person when they are drowning? And we know she's not struggling because she's sitting there with her seatbelt on.

Well, there's a long series of things that happen once the lungs start filling up with water. So not only do the lungs fill up with water, but people tend to swallow the water too in their panic while they're drowning. Eventually, the lungs will stop feeding oxygen to the brain, and the brain will go into a irreversible type damage, and the body will start to seize. So the body will probably start to seize for about 15 or 30 seconds afterwards. And at that point, CPR would be just useful in probably bringing them support after that. So after about three or four minutes underwater, the brain will have irreversible brain damage, the body will start to seize, and chances of a full and meaningful

recovery are certainly decreased. Okay, could you explain what you're saying in regular people talk, chances for a meaningful recovery? What does that mean? Well, for them to go back to their normal life, for her to go back to driving a car and delivering papers is very, very, very unlikely. She would probably suffer long-term events, long-term effects of the near drowning. She would have permanent brain damage. She may be reliant on a breathing machine or life-saving equipment just to keep her alive. Oh, man. Oh, man. You know, Jason Oceans, veteran defense attorney, trial lawyer in the tri-state area,

joining me out of New York. Jason Oceans, you're telling me this 911 operator cannot be prosecuted criminally, but I think she can be prosecuted civilly or not prosecuted, but have a civil suit against her for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Now, I know the victim is passed away. She's dead. The 911 operator listened as she drowned. We're not playing that part of the 911 call today. So I know that she's not alive to get any benefits, any monetary benefits.

But not only could the 911 operator Donna Rinobe sue, but so could the police department, the local municipality, the state. I don't even know who all could be sued. My concern is since she's dead, there would not be any monetary benefit to her, maybe to her family, because now they're hearing this and they're being emotionally tortured. What about that, Jason Oceans? Well, Nancy, you're spot on for a former prosecutor. Certainly on the civil side of it, it would be a wrongful death action. The estate certainly could benefit for that.

I don't know if she had family directly, but certainly any of her heirs or someone who stepped up to the administrator, they would certainly benefit. You know, question of qualified immunity to the municipality. But you would sue them all. You'd name the dispatcher, the police department, as you said, the state. And Dr. Robbie Ludwig brings up a great point. If she was so burnt out that she was so callous at this point, and we hear the callousness and it's chilling, you know, at that point, who was there to step in? She was already retiring or being let go, whatever the underlying circumstances are. And that's critical, too, to see if she was allowed to retire.

And this was her last shift or she was just being let go based on evaluation. And she was burnt out. So there's some really good critical questions in terms of a civil suit. And Discovery would flesh that out. But my lord, this is just difficult, very difficult to listen to knowing the end result. It's just, it tears your heart apart. And I bet a jury would agree with you. Yeah, I'd like to be on the plaintiff's side on this case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Ma'am, it's getting all the way up to my chest. I know the water's up to your chest. Just stay on the phone with me, and I have an officer and a fire department coming out to you, so just hold on, okay? Oh, thank you. I'm sorry if I'm rude, but I'm scared. You're not being rude. I know you're scared. Just calm down for me.

I'm scared. I've never had anything like this happen to me before. I'm scared. Well, this will teach you next time. Don't drive in the water. Couldn't see it, ma'am. I'm sorry. I wouldn't do it.

I don't see how you didn't see it. You had to go right over it, so. No, ma'am. I wasn't going to drive. I was in a parking lot. There was no water where I was at. Okay. When I got to the end of the parking lot, I was looking for the road to get out into the main road. When I got to the main road, it was too late. There was water, and I couldn't see it. That's enough. The water just didn't appear.

A callous 911 dispatcher lectures a drowning woman, telling her to shut up and asking, do you care that much about your cell phone? And the water just didn't appear, really belittling her, rebuking her as she died. It's overwhelming to me deborah stevens drowned as she drove into floodwaters in fort smith arkansas out in the early morning hours in the dark delivering newspapers trying to make ends meet she calls 9-1-1 begging for help but she couldn't get out of her car donna renault who has since resigned as a fort smith Department dispatcher, unfortunately, was the one to answer her call at 4.38 a.m. We have managed to get a hold of that 911 audio. We're not playing

the portion of it where Ms. Stevens dies. She drowns. Of course, now police are saying they are investigating its policies into responses and the dispatch center. But Stevens is dead. Now, amazing to me that this woman claims she truly cares about her job and about people because it sure doesn't sound like it. And another issue. Did you hear this? Levi Page with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. The victim, Deborah Stevensvens out delivering newspaper says

all these people are standing around watching her drown what are they doing they're in an apartment complex and she says that they're on their balcony watching her and she said she thought it was rude but the 9-1-1 dispatcher don't you're like you have again belittling her and nancy you know you're talking about how you think there could be criminal charges, but the Fort Smith police chief, Danny Baker, has made comments and said that this didn't even rise to the level of firing her. He says, quote, the manner that she spoke during this conversation would have probably been addressed, but would have been more of a rudeness quality type service complaint. I don't think it would have risen to the level of terminating. Oh, please. Are you kidding me?

A service complaint? Levi Page. I can't believe you even said that, that you even quoted that to me. Oh, yeah. He said it, not me. You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of the notorious case of the rape and stabbing of a 28 year old woman. And I learned about her in law school.

Her name, Kitty Genovese, stabbed multiple times in the apartment building across the street where she lived, okay, in Kew Gardens. I remember the New York Times published an article about it. 38 witnesses saw or heard the attack. Not one of them came to her aid or called police. Now, the horrific attack on her became known as the, quote, bystander effect or the Genovese syndrome, named after Kitty Genovese. Now, let me ask you this, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. Why were all these people

standing around doing nothing? I mean, they could have at least tried, even if they were not successful. I need to shrink. It really is hard to imagine. I mean, I suppose, one, there is the bystander effect where people don't want to get involved and put themselves in harm's way, or for some reason they were just frozen by their own panic and fear that if they were to get involved, it would not have helped and then they would have been in danger. But it is just really painful. And on top of this, this woman who was drowning was so kind. It should have been the opposite way where the dispatcher was kind, but this woman who was drowning was so kind. I mean, to say that these people watching her were rude, it's really something more than that.

So here we have somebody who truly is an innocent, and people are not getting involved the way they should. And to hear this, it is trauma-inducing for anyone listening to this. It is trauma inducing for anyone listening to this. And you make an amazing point that this poor family has to hear their beloved daughter or wife or, you know, whatever she whatever role she was in the family. Just having these painful final moments and not being treated well. Now, I'm being told that the people in the apartment complex could not reach her because of the water. I find that really hard to believe. Also, nobody even tried to reach her. Take a listen to this. At 5 a.m., the 911 call is disconnected, and rescuers are now in the water.

The car is right out there, and all you can see left is the dead gun light on it. Tonight, the Fort Smith Police Interim Chief is speaking out about the dispatchers call, saying he listened to it and that it's less than desirable. I will say the manner that she spoke during this conversation would probably have been addressed, but it would have been more of a rudeness,

quality of service type complaint. However, nothing will come of it. The chief says the dispatcher put in her two weeks notice before this, and that call came on her last day and final shift. Can't investigate someone who no longer works here. However, an investigation into our policies, our responses, our dispatch center. I've been in communication with the fire chief. We're looking at what we can do to maybe increase training.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's a CBS reporter speaking with Interim Chief Danny Baker. Why can't they investigate her and her behavior? And you know what? As I always say to Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent, she didn't go from zero to 90 MPH overnight. I guarantee you she has a history of this. The 911 dispatcher. You know, without having firsthand knowledge, I hesitate to say one way or the other, but at the

same time, you know, you're probably right. This stuff doesn't typically come out of nowhere. You know what, then? Let me go with Jason Oceans. You've seen enough criminal cases. One thing I have argued to a jury many, many times, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. If you don't know what he's going to do, look and see what he's already done. And then you'll know, because history has a way of repeating itself. It takes a huge Herculean effort for a human to change their behavior, to change their pattern, their mode, their course of conduct. It's very difficult to do. That's why it's so hard for people to kick booze or drugs.

Not only is it physically addictive, psychologically addictive, it's hard to change your routines and patterns. I guarantee you that if you look into her history, this is not the first time that she's most likely been rude to a person calling 911. She didn't just get burnt out. She didn't just anything. This was probably, as you say, a process. And you're right.

I'm sure there were other incidents leading up to this. Her callousness, her lack of care and concern, even just in calming Ms. Stevens, notwithstanding anything or, you know, where is more description, perhaps, because there was a delay in getting response of what her surroundings were, what her route was to retrace it. There were just so many more things that could have been done, notwithstanding her desire to chastise, berate and make it more uncomfortable than it actually had to be. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, well you're not okay, so you can call your mother-in-law when you're actually out

of the vehicle, so no, you cannot call her right now. Okay. I'm sorry, can you pray, will you pray with me? Hello? I'm here, I can still hear everything you're saying to me. Will you pray with me, please? Do you hear that? The woman is dying and she's begging the 911 dispatch to pray with her. And you hear the dispatch woman go, and try to ignore her please. Let's hear that again from the top, Jackie. Oh, my God. Hey, can I put you on hold?

I need to call my mother-in-law so she knows I'm okay. Okay, well, you're not okay, so you can call your mother-in-law when you're actually... I'm sorry. Can you pray? Will you pray with me? Hey, Herbie. Hello? I'm here.

I can still hear everything you're saying to me. Will you pray with me please? You go ahead and start off the prayer and I'll listen to you. I sure will. Dear Father, please just help me. Get me out of this water's pathway, dear Father. One of us has to have a new peace, Father. Just be with me and protect me and help me, dear Father, please.

Dear Father, help me. They're running away. They're running out of me. My vehicle is ruined. Yeah, but it's better that your vehicle is ruined than you being swept away and nobody knows where you are. I'm going to be swept away because my mom and me. No, you're not. You have nowhere to be swept away to besides the street that you're on, so just calm down, okay?

Well, I'm at the end of a street, but, ma'am. Ryan, I'm looking at it right now, and at the end of the street is some bushes on so just calm down okay well i'm at the end of a street but man right now i'm looking at it right now and at the end of the street is some bushes so you'll be just fine the callous nature that this dispatch operator displayed toward a dying woman cannot be ignored to levi page crime online.com investigative reporter explain to me what is being done other than them claiming they're doing another investigation. That's all that's being done. The police chief said that her conduct, if she was still employed, wouldn't even rise to the level of a termination. So if she did not put in her two weeks notice, she would still have a job working there, according to the police.

What do we know about the victim, Levi? She's a 47-year-old woman. She was delivering newspapers. She was very active in her church. She loved to help the elderly. And her family says that she had a heart of gold and would do anything for anyone. And unfortunately, this 911 dispatcher didn't seem to have the same attitude or heart that she did. Take a listen as dispatch operator Donna Renaud yells at the dying victim. Hold on for me. Hold on. And it's getting higher and higher.

Oh, man. Oh, Lord, help me. They're trying to come to you. The whole parking lot is flooded. They're trying to find you, okay? So hold on for me. Oh, man, I'm at the very back. I'm at the very back on the end of that road on 58th Street.

That's what street that is. I didn't, no, ma'am. Oh, my God, my car is starting to move. Oh, ma'am, my car is starting to move. Please. Okay, listen to me. I know. I'm trying to get you as help as I can, okay?

Just hold on for me. Okay, ma'am, please. I know you're scared. I know. Hold on for me because I've got to take other calls plus you and listen to all the guys that just called on to me, okay? Okay, ma'am. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. other calls plus you and listen okay okay okay okay dear lord please just get me out dear lord please help him find me dear lord please i've got to take other calls it's not all about you

what did i just hear that dr robbie lud? Dr. Robbie Ludwig joining me from her Facebook Live program at Times Square. Dr. Robbie, did you think she's a customer service operator at QVC? I've got other calls beside you. The woman is dying. All of her newspapers are floating around her face. The water is coming up to her chin. She's begging for help. The EMTs get there. They see her dome light, but they don't get there fast enough. The woman is begging and pleading, and Donna Renault says, I've got other calls other than you. We clearly hear that the dispatcher is blaming the victim. She's blaming the victim for being in this situation. Therefore, she has zero empathy towards her. In fact, she has

disdain. She doesn't really believe her. So there's zero connection. There's only anger and rage towards this woman who is being so kind and lovely in her final moments. Even in this woman's state of panic, she is being lovely and apologetic to this dispatcher who is devaluing her, who is blaming her for dying, and really has, seems like no care at all about her, and communicates that. damaging here. Imagine being in that situation and sensing that the other person either doesn't believe you or is not understanding the severity of your situation. That in itself is trauma-inducing. Some of the statements, Donna Renaud, the operator, says, quote, you're not going to die. I don't know why you're freaking out. I know the water level is high, but freaking out is doing nothing. You hear the victim repeatedly apologizing to the dispatcher. The dispatcher responds, this will teach you next time not to drive in the water. I don't know how you didn't see it. You had to go right over it. The water just didn't appear. She goes on to say, you're not the only one who's been stuck in the

water, so calm down. As the woman, Deborah Stevens, continues to beg for help, Donna Renaud callously says, Am I not on the phone with you trying to get you some help? At one point, the victim even apologizes for being rude to the dispatcher because she keeps begging for help. She says she's about to vomit, and the dispatcher hits back saying, well, you're in the water. You can throw up. It's not going to matter. When she begs for dispatch to pray with her, Donna Renaud goes, you go ahead. I'll listen. Her dying request. It's almost more than I can

take in. Not only has she suffered, but now her family is suffering hearing this. I'm looking at a picture right now of Deborah Stevens out trying to make extra money delivering newspapers in the dark morning hours, holding a little dog. Looks like a little Maltese looking dog. You know, to Dr. Tim Gallagher, I know your lungs begin to fill up with water. What does that feel like? Do you black out? Do you know what's happening? Well, I think I have a little personal experience to add to this. As someone who almost drowned himself, I do recall the panic.

And I do recall my eyes wide open and just swallowing water and breathing it in. And I do remember almost passing out, you know, and it's almost a surreal peace sort of came over me. And I didn't really feel any pain, so to speak, you know, just sort of, I just kind of was relenting for the experience to happen. And then fortunately in my case, somebody did come by and rescue me from the water. So each case is individualized. And that was my experience. And I hope for the sake of the victim here, that she did go in a peaceful way and not the way

that it appeared with her interaction with the 911 operator. Well, I mean, Dr. Tim Gallagher, I appreciate your sentiment, but we heard the way she went. She went crying, hysterical, pleading for help, apologizing for begging for help. I, too, had that experience at age 12, almost drowned in a lake. And I remember breathing in, gulping in water and fighting the water. And miraculously, I remember like it was yesterday, it felt like a hand, a big hand came up from under and I prayed it just like Deborah Stevens was praying as I was fighting the water as a little girl. And it felt like a big hand reached up under my back and pulled me to the top of the water. And I immediately got calm and started floating. And my best little girlfriend, Joy,

somehow made it to me and pulled me out of the water. And I remember being on the beach, on my stomach and water just pouring out of my nose and mouth. It was a terrifying experience. Right now, our prayers with the family of Deborah Stevens. And good luck with that internal investigation. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.