Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEAR IT: “Cult Mom” Lori Vallow BEST FRIEND ON Vallow’s “past lives,” light/dark spirits and the "DEMON" living inside Hubby.

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

Multiple services will be held for JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan. For now, the family is unable to plan a burial as the the remains of their loved ones have not been released by police. Today Nancy Grace talks to a former "best" friend of Lori Vallow, April Raymond who says Vallow tried to "gather" her into her beliefs. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan are dead. We may have thought so all along, but now we know. We know that their remains were destroyed and buried in the backyard of cult mom Lori Vallow's new husband's home. What now? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

With me now, a very special guest. Her name, April Raymond. April is cult mom Lori Vallow's former friend from Hawaii. April, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me and thank you for reporting on this story. Did you know JJ and Tylee? I did. I've known JJ and Tylee and their family since 2015. When you see the footage of her in court now, is that the Lori that you knew? Not at all. I don't recognize that person. Let's start at the beginning. April Raymond, Lori Vallow's friend from Hawaii. You guys met in 2015 at the local Mormon church there. Are you a Mormon? I am. I am LDS. Well what do you make of her questioning are the children light or

dark and have they turned into zombies? I from all of my friends that are Mormon from investigating and speaking to members of the LDS I've never heard anything like that in my life. I haven't either and I've been LDS my entire life. When she first kind of brought those things up with me last spring I didn't even know what to think or where she was coming up with with her beliefs. Okay hold whoa wait she talked to you about zombies and light and dark she did she started by telling me that charles was a had a demon living inside of him that was the first exposure i had to to these beliefs and uh along with her after she started telling me about charles and the demon that was inside of him the the demon even had a name.

His name was Ned Snyder. Whoa, whoa, whoa. The demon's name living in her now dead husband was, what was the demon's name? She told me Ned Snyder was the name that she used. Ned Snyder. I mean, we're used to hearing about demons from hell like Beelzebub and others, but I've never really heard modern day demons named. Why does she say Charles Valor's body was inhabited by a demon?

Well, the way she explained it to me is she said that Charles was already dead and that there was a demon living inside of him and the demon was named Ned Snyder and I asked her well how do you know that that Charles is dead and you know this Ned Snyder has taken over his body and the explanation she gave was well the demon is shorter than Charles and that's how I know it's not him. And I just, I thought she was having a nervous breakdown. I thought, you know, she was going through a divorce, she's just become a grandmother, maybe she's having a midlife crisis. I never thought that we would end up here or be having this kind of a conversation months

later. April, I'm totally blown away by what you're telling me so you were you in person with her or on the phone when when she said this we were in person and she was living back in Arizona but she entirely came to Kauai to visit me it was when Charles kind of started his divorce proceedings and she just needed to get away and she said she was going to start over on Kauai. So once she kind of started telling me about this demon in Charles, then she brought these lists of names and next to them was a number and it would say light or dark and it was just pages and pages of names. And I'm not sure exactly how they or who all was involved in in judging and rating these people but they had a systematic way of deciding if

somebody was light or dark if they were possessed it was very alarming she even had a list with my name on it, but my name was handwritten in. I hope you were liked. I was. I don't know if she'd still probably have me in that category, but she had me in light, but she had just handwritten my name and she had crossed out somebody else's name. I guess I took their place or something. What kind of people were on the list who's on the list there were family members of hers a lot of the names I didn't even recognize I don't know they must have been people that she knew but what they weren't names that I recognized that the name that whose place I took that she she hand wrote I

didn't recognize the name I did recognize a few of her family members, but other than that and myself, I didn't recognize any of the names. Were the children on the list? Not the list that I saw, but she did tell me that Tylee was dark. She didn't say anything about JJ at that time, but she did tell me that Tylee was dark.

What in their world are you supposed to do when someone is dark? See, at the time, I didn't know what that meant. I just thought that it was, I didn't know where she was coming up with it. I thought it was just harmless or it was some kind of escape for her. I never got the impression that it was going to become a violent situation or a dangerous situation. I thought it was just more of like a fantasy world that she was living in, and I thought it was just, you know, maybe brought on by some kind of, you know, emotional trauma or midlife crisis. I never thought that we would end up here. But she told you, and you're sure, that Tylee was dark.

Yes. She said, Tylee is dark. She's just like her dad. And her dad was really, according to Lori, was very dark. That would be Joe Ryan. Now, at this time, was Joe Ryan still alive? No, he was not. He passed away, I think, in the spring of 2018 because she had, she and Tylee came to visit me the 4th of July, 2018, and he had already passed away by then but she says he was also dark exactly so did you know her during the happy times between her laurie what was her relationship like with her husband charles velo honestly i thought she and charles had the perfect marriage of all the friends that I had, I thought they had the marriage that you'd want to emulate. I, in fact, when she first told me last February that they were having marriage problems, that they were going to be going through a divorce,

I was completely blindsided because I never saw them argue. She never complained about anything very significant in their marriage other than she wanted more of a strong spiritual leader. She didn't feel like she and Charles were spiritual equals, but beyond that, it seemed like they had a really good marriage and I thought they had a really great life. Why does she think she and Charles Vallow were not spiritual equals? Charles had converted to Mormonism, and so his understanding of doctrine was maybe not as advanced as she perceived her understanding to be. She's a lifelong, you know, born into Mormonism,

been born and raised in Mormonism. And so I think that she just didn't think that he understood maybe some of the deeper doctrines that she was really attracted to. But he supported her in her role in her religion. He did his part. He wasn't a passive participant. He was very active. I think she just thought that he wasn't her match spiritually. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Trying to get my mind wrapped around everything you're telling me.

And you thought when she was talking about people are light or dark, that Tyleler was dark just like her father you thought she was going through some kind of a crisis because by then she was in the midst of a divorce with from charles vala correct right that's correct and this was her fourth marriage what happened next well was tyler there to hear all this tyler was tyler was there and it didn't seem like it was something that tyler was hearing for the first time. I don't think Tylee was in the room when she said, Tylee's dark. But Tylee was around when she was talking about a lot of her other beliefs as far as being a translated being, as far as being, have living existed on earth several times or having several past lives. And she would go into detail about who she was and all of these past lives that she had

experienced. Okay. I need to hear that. That is something I want to hear. What were her past lives? Sure. So, you know, she had a lot of random people that weren't very significant, but a lot of the lives that she experienced,

she was connected to early founders of the Mormon church. So she had said that she was Joseph Smith's grandmother. She said that she had been, I can't remember if it was the wife or the daughter of James the Just, who was Jesus's brother. I mean, she had so much information. Wait, hold on. Again, I'm not a biblical scholar, although I try my best to be a Christian. Joseph Smith's grandfather. Now Joseph Smith was a founder of Mormonism, correct? That's correct. Now, did you just mention James, Christ's brother? She says she was the disciple, James. Right. Christ's brother, That she was his wife. That's what I remember her saying. You're making the hair stand up on my arm right now. Just, just, I want you to know that. I know.

I'm sorry. Because now I'm kind of understanding where this is going. Okay. Any other past lives I need to know about? I don't remember anything specific about a lot of the other lives that she talked about but I know that there were like close to a dozen that she had shared with me but it was just so much information that I had nothing to connect it to and I was just kind of waiting for her to just get it out of her system. It was something I wanted to not really remember. Yeah, when you love somebody, a longtime friend, and they come out with something bizarre, you have the love and you're trying to reconcile this thing that you're hearing or witnessing. Were there any other biblical, biblically connected past lives other than with Joseph Smith and Christ's brother, James? Not that I can recall specifically.

During this discussion, you're saying that Tylee was in and out and she had obviously heard all this before. Right. What was her relationship with Tylee? Did and out, and she had obviously heard all this before. Right. What was her relationship with Tylee? Did they get along, or were they having mother-daughter problems? I never saw them have mother-daughter problems. I never saw the problems. I know that Lori would describe the problems. Tylee was a very strong-willed, independent young lady, like most teenage girls are.

I didn't think that any of their conflict was outside of the ordinary mother-daughter power struggle. Nothing stood out to me that caused alarm. When she, Lori Vallow, called mom, was talking about her past lives and being quote translated Tylee was coming in and out she showed no alarm because if I heard my mother say That she was a goddess and she was leading us toward the end of the world. I Would certainly perk up and listen, but Tylee was kind of blasé about it. She seemed very unfazed by it. It didn't seem like it was the first time she was hearing it. It just seemed like something she had been around or privy to for quite a while.

She didn't act surprised or even really interested in anything that Laurie was saying April when you first learned that the children were missing what was your first thought I was physically sick it I just could not conceive of a scenario where there was a good explanation as to why they would be missing, especially knowing the circumstances around Charles Vallow's death. That had caused alarm for me back in July of 2019. Explain, explain. Well, when I found out about what had happened to Charles in July, it was really alarming to me

because of the conversation that we had had in February, where she's saying Charles is already dead, there's a demon living inside of him, and then a few months later, is dead and her brother's the one that that shot him and i had known that her brother alex had attacked her previous husband joe ryan and so it just it just seemed like there's a lot more to this there's something more to this and so then flash forward to december when I first find out that the children are missing and then I hear all of the other circumstances about Chad Daybell's wife's mysterious death and just the behavior and the reaction

of Lori and Chad it caused even greater alarm for me was Charles Vallow who's now dead ever violent to your knowledge? No. If anything, I would describe Charles as a pushover. He was a, you know, you never know what's really going on behind closed doors, but I was in their home quite a bit. Laurie and I were close enough

that we would tell each other just about anything. I would think that if there was something that had happened or if he was violent, I would have thought she would have had no problem bringing that up to me. I never saw that. If anything, I saw Charles exhibit an exorbitant amount of patience in most situations. What do you make of the claim that he, Charles Vallow, became violent and Alex Cox had to shoot him? I don't believe that. Based on my experience with Charles and knowing Alex's history and, you know, remembering the conversation I had with Lori in February it just I have a lot of questions because in February

she told you Charles Vallow was dark possessed by a demon and that he was already dead right and then suddenly he is dead did she ever talk to you about Chad Daybell? She did, but it was more, you know, I knew that she had read his books. When she, again, in February when she came, she was talking about how she was part of a podcast group that he was in. But she also mentioned several of her other co-hosts she never gave me any indication at that time that their relationship was anything more than just professional and that she just respected him as an author and as a speaker do you believe Charles was faithful to her was he? I don't think that he was cheating on her. Charles

was to a fault, madly in love with her and did anything to make her happy. People surprise you every day and you never know what's going on behind closed doors. But I didn't see any indication of that and she did bring that up to me that he was had been having an affair but the evidence that she had that was supposed to support that didn't make any sense and I felt like she was her evidence well I asked I said well where did he meet this woman? And she couldn't give me a name of the woman. I mean, the first thing you're going to do if your husband's having an affair is you're going to find out her name. You're going to look her up on social media. You're going to want to know what this woman looks like. She didn't have a name. She didn't really know what she looked like.

She just said, oh, he met her on LinkedIn and that the way that she knew he was having an affair was that when he would go out of town, his grocery bills would be very high. It just didn't make any sense. I was like, I just thought she was feeling insecure. That was it? That's the evidence? That's the evidence that she shared with me. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me now, a very special guest.

Her name, April Raymond. April is cult mom Lori Vallow's former friend from Hawaii. April, what can you tell me about Lori Vallow believing that she is a, quote, chosen one that is going to lead 144,000 people to the new Jerusalem at the end of the world on July 22? I feel like she really believes that. I don't think she's saying just saying that. I feel like she's delusional. And I think that I think that she wholeheartedly believes that I think her behavior and the behavior of her new husband Chad speaks

volumes to me I cannot conceive of any reasonable explanation as to why they would behave the way that they've behaved since this began April did Yellowstone have any significance to Lori Vallow not to my knowledge I was actually surprised that she had even taken a trip or a day trip there that didn't seem why do you say that that That's interesting to me. It's cold in Yellowstone in September. It's off-season. Lori wasn't, at least the Lori that I knew, that wasn't the type of vacation that she would enjoy. So I was just surprised that she was even there.

And it didn't fit in with the person that I had known. Why are you telling me that Yellowstone would not be the kind of vacation Lori Valley would take or trip? Well, I'm just basing it on what I had known of her. And every trip that I'd known that she'd taken was to Disneyland or to Hawaii or somewhere warm and somewhere um kind of tropical it just yellowstone just didn't seem it just seemed out of the ordinary for her in my opinion with the fact that's the last time tyler has ever been seen alive question to you regarding her ordering her wedding dress on Amazon and her wedding ring before Tammy Daybell is dead. Then Tammy Daybell dies in her sleep. How does that strike you?

You know her better than any of us. It's very alarming to me. And, you know, I know Lori is a master planner. She's always ten steps ahead. You know, that's one of the qualities I admired about her. But in this situation, it just doesn't sit well with me. To me, it implies foul play. What was your conversation with Lori Vallow like

when she told you she was a quote, chosen one? I was trying to be very compassionate towards her at the time. I thought that, again, that there was some kind of a psychotic break or there was some kind of mental crisis and so I was almost embarrassed for her by you know because of the things that she was saying and I just thought if she just you know gets it out of her system that it'll she'll cycle

through whatever she's going through right now and and she'll get back to normal and obviously I was very wrong. April, when she's talking about being a chosen one, a goddess, her word, not mine, that has been selected by Christ to lead the chosen 144,000 people worldwide since the beginning of time to the quote, new Jerusalem. Was she going to be able to bring the children with her? She didn't say anything about her children, but she had told me that she was there to gather me.

She had been appointed as a gatherer by the angel Moroni and Jesus Christ apparently. And as a gatherer it was her responsibility to go and get the remaining 144,000 people so that they could all be together. Wait, she was trying to gather you? Yes. And she said you would need to separate from your children.

You were chosen? I was. That is significant, what you just said she told you you were chosen you were the one of the 144,000 selected and that you April Raymond would have to separate from your children because they weren't coming right that they had a different mission and that in order to fulfill my mission I would have to separate from them what What did that mean? Did you ask her what do you mean separate? I didn't think at the time that it meant anything sinister.

At the time, I just thought she meant you just need to come with me, and the kids will be fine with their father, and they'll have their mission. And I got the impression that eventually we'll all be together again based on what she was saying but she never specifically gave the details of what the separation meant I just I didn't understand and I should have asked more questions but I almost didn't really want it no more well at the, I doubt you thought anything nefarious of it. Not at all. April. I did not. Was this in person or over the phone? This was in person. She looked at you and told you you're one of the 144,000 chosen and all of the 144,000 would be

gathered together for the end of the world in July, July 22nd, and you would have to leave your children or that you had to leave now to prepare? I think the way I understood it was leave now to prepare and go help gather the rest of the people. And in order to do that, you'd have to separate from your children. What did you say? I said, no, I don't believe this in the way that you do.

And I wanted to be kind about it so that I didn't embarrass her. And I just basically said, I understand that you really believe this, but I haven't had these same experiences that you've had or claim to have had. And so this isn't something that resonates with me. How did she take it? I think she was a little upset, but she kind of made a comment that, oh, maybe you're just not ready, or you're not ready to hear the truth,

or something to that effect. She didn't show, you know, any really significant signs of being angry or upset, but I could tell that, you know, she was a little frustrated. Where were the 144,000 supposed to go? She never said a location or even a date. This was back in 2019, and she had just said that it was, the end was soon, but she never gave a location of where everyone was supposed to gather to. But you were to physically leave where you were and go to a certain spot to gather with the 144,000? Once they were all found. And it was my understanding, based on what she said, was that we would be traveling all over the world

to find all of these people because they were you know there were some in every country or you know something to that effect they had to be gathered worldwide they had to be gathered worldwide yes Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When did you first feel her slipping away from you and away from the established LDS? Last February is when I saw it the most significantly and overtly. And when she was talking about these past lives and when she was talking about this light-dark rating system, talking about herself as a translated being and a gatherer, it was just, these were foreign expressions.

These were foreign concepts to me, and I could not understand where these were coming from. I could tell that there was some organization to it. It wasn't just someone, you know, just ranting or spewing off the top of their head it was obviously something that she had been exposed to or had learned and it had been presented in a very organized way but I couldn't understand the source of it none of it connected with any Mormon doctrine that I am aware of.

Has she tried to contact you at all since her marriage to Daybell? No, the last time that we had any contact was June 27th, so just a couple of weeks before Charles passed away. April, I know that JJ had some learning issues did she ever indicate that that was overwhelming to her Laurie was always a really good mom and she was really good with JJ but she always had a lot of help with JJ so when they lived on Kauai she always had a nanny usually the nanny was a live-in nanny and then

once he went to school he Charles was always there to help her, you know, manage JJ. It wasn't something she could do on her own. And so when she came to stay with me last February, she didn't have JJ with her. And I asked where, where he was. And she said that he was with Charles and Charles was going to go be with, know be with Kay and then we kind of talked about well what's going to happen if you go through with this divorce or you know what are the consequences for JJ and she said oh Charles is gonna have to take care of JJ it's it's his turn now basically not that she resented it but just kind of like well if we're not together I don't need to take

care of JJ anymore because that's Charles's responsibility. So she didn't express any resentment, just more like it's his turn now. I've done my time. So I'm going to dagger it. Right. That's how I took it. And then Charles Vo was shot dead and that leaves her with jj and tyler who she believes is dark who had the money to pay for the nannies i don't yeah i don't think she had one after

charles passed away and that was what was kind of concerning to me too is when i learned that she had taken jj out of school in rexburg to do homeschool. That didn't make sense to me because she'd always had a lot of help. And even with a lot of help, JJ requires a lot of attention and time. And so her doing homeschool with JJ by herself, that didn't make any sense to me. Was Tylee really planning on going to college i hadn't been told when they were staying there that tylee had gotten her ged and that was you know back in 2019 um tylee's a very intelligent girl i know she wanted to go to college she never expressed any interest at that time in a specific college. Why did she get a GED? Why didn't she just go through school, the 12 grades? Tylee had a lot of health issues and they could never really get to the bottom of

them. So she had been missing a lot of school in Arizona and so they had just decided that it was getting too complicated to try to work things out with the teachers to get makeup work that they just decided for her to take her GED what kind of health problems that the doctors couldn't figure out she had some digestive issues or stomach issues she was always having stomach aches and they you know did every test they could think of and and never could really figure out what what the source of the problem was or what the remedy would be but the answer was to take her out of school and have her get her ged right that was there she took jj out of school. Curious. Very curious. Did Tylee ever talk about her ailment to you?

I knew that she was sick a lot, so Tylee would often be kind of, you know, even when or recovering or just getting back from the doctor when she was younger they told me that she had had several surgeries to try to figure out what was wrong and to try to fix things and it never accomplished anything was Lori Vallow primarily primarily involved in Tylee's treatments? Yes. I mean I'm certainly no doctor or psychiatrist or shrink but if a fleet of doctors in a metropolitan city can't figure out what's wrong and call it mom Lori Vallow was the primary person taking care of her, I'd be very, very curious to find the true nature of Tylee Ryan's ailments and if they were somehow inflicted on her. I'm very curious indeed.

Absolutely. What was Lori Vallow's attitude toward Tylee's ailments? She seemed very, you know, what I perceived as very compassionate towards it and just she came across as well. We'll do whatever it takes to, you know, find out why this keeps happening to Tylee. Hindsight. What keeps happening? Would she throw up? Would she have pain? Stomach pains that were just like very unexplained stomach pains and issues when she would eat things, how she would feel. Reflecting back on those conversations, it'd be interesting to look at Tylee's medical history and see what really were her symptoms and what had been done, you know, to try to find out what was causing her.

And the onset of the pain. And would Lori Vallow be there alone with her at the time she began manifesting the pain? And when the pain would go away? And what, if any, attention would Lori Vallow receive when Tylee would be ill and at what doctor after doctor after hospital after hospital I'm very curious as to the answers to those questions how Tylee's ailment affected cult mom Lori Vallow this is the first time hearing of this I'm very very distressed what about JJ's issues how did they affect cult mom Lori Vallow? I would describe her

as more of a martyr. She was never, never expressed any resentment or any anger towards, towards it, but she would come across more as a martyr. And I know that Charles was was really trying to help JJ reach certain milestones in his development and progress and every time he would reach a milestone it would almost seem like Laurie was would discount it and act as if Charles was reading too much into JJ's progress what kind of milestone are we talking about learning to read read, learning to walk? Yeah, like learning to read or learn, you know, I knew him when he was a lot younger,

so being able to say his alphabet or recognize sight words, it was almost like there was something that she, she didn't celebrate those accomplishments the same way that Charles seemed to celebrate them, in my opinion. This is painting a very, very disturbing picture. You know that, right? Mm-hmm.

What's your message to Lori Vallow now, if she could hear you? Honestly, I don't think that, I don't have anything to say to her, and I don't think that she would listen't have anything to say to her and I don't think that she would listen to anything that anyone has to say right now. It seems like she's going to do what she's going to do and it looks like she's not going to let anybody get in her way of whatever it is that she wants to do. April Raymond, thank you beyond words for the insight you've given

all of us today. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.