Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEAR KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS TINDER DATE: Watts juggles office sex and rape fantasy Tinder date, then murders pregnant wife and two baby girls

Episode Date: December 7, 2018

As Colorado killer dad Chris Watts heads to a Wisconsin prison where he will spend the rest of his life, new details emerge about his extramarital affairs and how he murdered his pregnant wife and two young daughters. Nancy Grace explores the latest with a panel of experts of experts, including psychologist & lawyer Dr. Brian Russell, Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, CrimeOnline.com reporter Ellen Killoran, and RadarOnline.com reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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They were always hugging or holding hands or kissing, and they had the perfect family. Shanann, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. If somebody has her, just please bring her back. In the last hours, killer dad Chris Watts transferred to a maximum security Wisconsin prison known for housing serial killers and for good reason. Chris Watts, who has pled guilty in the murder, change that to Chris Watts suspected in the murders of his wife and two little girls, Bella and Celeste. Now has women crawling out of the

woodwork. This one, I met him on Tinder. That one we had a relationship. I was shopping for wedding dresses. As we learn damning evidence from the autopsy report of his wife, Shanann. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Alexis Tereszczuk, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com.

Alexis Tereszczuk, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com. Alexis Tereszczuk, what's the latest? In the dark of night, Chris Watts was moved from his prison in Colorado all the way across the country to a prison in Wisconsin. He was moved because of safety reasons. He is such a threat that they had to move him out of the Colorado prison. People know about him, and he is such a target on his back that they moved him. But they have moved him to the Dodge Correctional Facility, the prison that is known for housing the worst serial killers in the country.

This is where they put the hardened criminals, the people who have committed the most heinous crimes in our whole country, together. And that's where Chris Watts is now. Well, Cheryl McCollum, joining me, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and also crime scene investigator. Cheryl, is there anything worse than what we're learning from the 25 pages of autopsy reports

that you can read at CrimeOnline.com in their entirety. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, Shanann Watts was 15 weeks pregnant at the time she was murdered, and her body revealed shocking information to me anyway. Even I, who have been present for countless autopsies and I never even blinked an eye or looked away crime scenes that literally stunk um the works but when I read that autopsy report it almost made me sick Cheryl and you know what I'm talking about let me be really clear there is There is nowhere they can move him where he's going to be safe. He has a target so clear. They're waiting for him in Wisconsin.

They would wait on him in Idaho or Kansas or Florida. Hold on just a moment. Jackie Howard in the studio, please quit cheering silently and mouthing yay, yay, yay. You do the whoop, whoop sign. You know, Cheryl, I hear you talking but come on jailhouse justice i've only heard of it actually happening in three cases one was catholic priest whoops ran into one of his molestation victims that had grown up and committed a crime and was in jail he got killed um the priest did jeffrey dahmer was killed in prison and there was just recently

one other. But if you're counting on jailhouse justice, okay, don't hold your breath, Cheryl. Nancy, there's a creed among criminals, and you know this better than anybody. I do know that. When you hurt women or children, they're not going to forgive you ever. And just like you just mentioned mentioned these people that you mentioned these three hurt innocent people these aren't people that even on the street people felt like hey there's some street justice this person killed your brother

so you can kill them this isn't the case he killed three children well I hate to point out to you a large percentage of people behind bars, Cheryl McCollum, I know you're the director of the Cold Case Research Institute and all that, and I'm very impressed. But let me just point out, to just enjoy raining on your parade for a moment, that about half the people, men behind bars, are there for hurting women or children. Uh-oh. Did that just mess up your whole your whole argument not at all not at all because i'm talking about you just cannot admit defeat go ahead hardened

criminals that creed for real criminals now i'm talking like mafia gang members they leave women and children out of it i'm not talking about the punks that are going to, you know, hurt the poor child. I'm not talking about the priest, because that priest is not a hardened criminal, like street level, I'm going to get retribution for these children that you hurt. I'm talking about real criminals. I'm a certified, right on, in your face, I'm a criminal, I admit to being a criminal. I'm talking about that guy. He's waiting on Chris Watts. I promise you. Cheryl, what did you find to be the most disturbing aspect of the autopsy reports on Shanann Watts?

Nancy, every single line told a story of what he did to her in such great detail that I believe he's going to make the right choice when he just admits to everything and doesn't go to okay you know what i had to do when i first started trying cases uh i'm gonna throw this to you ashley wilcott atlanta judge lawyer you can find her at ashleywilcott.com and child crime watched on facebook ashley, I learned at my first trial, and then I learned it over and over again before it was finally ingrained in me. No matter how off-putting the evidence is, you cannot turn away from the evidence.

You have to look at the jury in the eye, show no sign of revulsion, nothing, and you have to tell them the facts. And in this case, the autopsy report reveals that Shanann Watts' baby boy, Nico, she delivered him. The baby was in her underwear. Nico was born because of a prolapsed uterus that happened when chris watts was beating her and murdering her they found the unborn child in her underwear according to the autopsy report and i just still practice doing that so i practiced practiced on Jackie here in the studio when I said it. Because that is the fact. That's the reality.

And we cannot turn away from it, no matter how off-putting and personally revulsive it is. Because that is the truth. And I will have to say, in this case, the truth hurts. And that's why I believe in our justice system as a judge. Nancy, you have to put the evidence before the jury. The jury is going to be revolted, but the truth is the truth. That's exactly what happened to that mother. And the autopsy reports are equally as horrific, in my mind,

as to what happened to those children. Defensive wounds on one of these small children. The juries cannot make a decision without having every shred of evidence in front of them, no matter how hard it is for a court or a prosecutor to present it to the jury. That's their job. They have to hear those horrible facts because it's what happened well we keep hearing from cheryl mccollum that there's going to be jailhouse justice when chris watts uh gets settled into his new digs at the mac security wisconsin prison but here's one lady that had a a perfect reason for retribution listen to one lady chris watts dating, and I'm putting that euphemistically,

dating off Tinder. After they exchanged a few flirty text messages, Amanda agreed to meet Chris Watts in person for the first time here in this shopping center. They parked somewhere over here, and then Chris bought Amanda a coffee from this Starbucks before they decided to head to her place to watch a movie. That movie was the psychological thriller Shutter Island. Leonardo DiCaprio plays a husband who murders his wife because she killed their children. Where are the kids? Did the movie inspire Watts to falsely claim that he killed his wife Shanann in a rage because she strangled the little girls?

She hurt my kids. I kind of didn't say anything to her. Kind of eerie. Yeah, almost like a premonition. Right. At this point, we have been able to recover a body that we're quite certain is Shanann Watt's body. We have strong reason to believe that we know where the bodies of the children are. He wasn't being the loving Chris that he normally was.

He wasn't touching or hugging or doing stuff like that. And he wasn't being as attentive to the girls as he normally is. We're not promised tomorrow, you know? We're not promised anything. But to be able to enjoy our children and every crazy moment, it can be super crazy. I'm not going to lie. My kids are are crazy but I love them and I love the fact that I can be there for them I need to see

everybody again this house is not complete with without anybody here you are hearing a montage bringing us up to date and the latest in Chris Watts the killer dad who has just been moved to a maximum security facility in Wisconsin. Back to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. You know, it's very rare for a prisoner convicted on a state offense to be moved out of state. It is. The jailhouse term is called a bus ride. So they do it in the dark at night. They do it very quickly. They don't do a lot of talking about it beforehand.

So they try to get him moved before any incident happens. This tells me that they knew good and well that he was in danger, extreme danger. I want you to take a listen to our friend at Inside Edition that you just heard, Stephen Fabin. He's talking with Chris Watts' one-time Tinder date. Now, this was all happening during the marriage and also while he was dating, let me just say dating, Nicole Kessinger, Nicole Kessinger as well.

These are two of the women that we know of he was sleeping with while he was married to Shanann. This is while she was rushing around trying to buy self-help books to put their marriage back together. I'll come back to you on that with me. Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist, lawyer, host of Investigation Discoveries hit series Fatal Vows.

Self-help books didn't help this case because all along Chris Watts had murderous intentions. I mean, take a listen to the tender lover and Inside Edition's Stephen Fabian. That night, Amanda says they had their first sexual encounter. He was very rough, I would say. Very rough. And, you know, the best way I can describe it is he's almost zoned out into a different person. Did he ever choke you or ask to choke you? He did place his hand around my neck. zoned out into a different person. Did he ever choke you or ask to choke you? He

did place his hand around my neck and I am quickly kind of it freaked me out. It sounded like he was very forceful. Very forceful. Is that terrifying to you now knowing that that's how he admitted to killing his wife? Choking her? He had his hands on your neck. Yeah. Okay. To Alexis Terrestrials, RaiderOnline.com. That was his Tinder, let me just say, date with air quotas. Whoa, they had one cup of coffee and a Chick-fil-A.

That's all it took? And then they're having sex, and he put his hands on her neck. I'm telling you, this is one of my many mottos. You put out a hand, you'll pull back a nub, okay? So obviously she did not have the same credo. What was that? One cup of coffee from Chick-fil-A and they're in the sack? What does a cup of coffee cost at Chick-fil-A anyway, dollar? They met on Tinder, which is a dating app, which is totally for sex.

That's exactly what the app is. So I'm surprised he even bought her a cup of coffee in Chick-fil-A because it's really just about hooking up. So they go back to her place. She has said that they acted out a rape fantasy. So this guy was getting really violent in the months leading up to his arrest for murdering his children and his wife. And the thing is about his wife, when they found her, she was only in a t-shirt, a bra and her underwear. And she had given birth to this baby in a dirt grave. He had no regard for her life or the life of that unborn baby that he so desperately wanted. He told her he wanted a third child. She had a lot of health problems. She

struggled with health problems for years. So having these children was a miracle, an absolute miracle. That's what her family said. And she didn't want more kids. She had two perfectly healthy, beautiful children. He convinced her he wanted more kids because it would make their marriage even happier and more complete. She loved it. She loved the idea of more babies. She has them. And then he murders her while she's pregnant, dumps her body in this dirt, right? It only took him 20 minutes to dig a two foot grave for a woman who was over five feet tall. Two, 20 minutes. That's it. Well, hold on, Alexis. I want to follow up on something you just said about her overcoming all of her health problems because he wanted baby number three.

Listen to Shanann Watts' parents speaking out on 2020. Her dream was to help her entire family. How do you describe your daughter? Just full of life. Hey guys, we're here from the boat today. Always out there trying to help people. She was fun, full of life. She did so many things. She had her hand in everything. She was amazing. Love you guys. Have a great day. She never gave up. She had a vision board.

What was on that vision board? To make sure her children had everything they ever needed. She was a good soul. She was very open on Facebook. Saw a lot of her life, personal life. I am so excited. I'm thriving with you. I am confident. I am determined and successful. She seemed to have the perfect life.

She did. Did you believe that she was happy? Absolutely. Absolutely. She was extremely happy. You are hearing Shanann's parents speaking out, and they were also touching on all the risks of pregnancy when you have serious lupus, which she did.

The children, just miracles. And during all of this, Watts is sneaking around with his Tinder date. Listen. The relationship lasted several weeks until watts began seeing another woman co-worker nicole kessinger the next time amanda saw watts he was in the headlines for killing his wife and kids she still can't believe she dated him made me feel betrayed it made me feel nasty it made me dirty. He had a wife at home, pregnant, two daughters at home. I know how that hurts. I wouldn't do that to her. Wow. Okay. So we know that the Tinder date was

happening. We know that she was pregnant after battling lupus, still battling lupus, to Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist, lawyer, host of I.D.'s hit series, Fatal Vows. Dr. Brian, I mean, I don't get it. You jump in the sack with somebody after a cup of coffee at Chick-fil-A and the guy acts out a rape fantasy? And I assume she knew he was married but it was then him dating another woman two-timing her not once but twice with his wife and a co-worker that's what broke it off the cup of coffee would have done it for me well yeah I mean I think when you combine what you see happening here with this tender date with what obviously happened in his marriage

there's an incredibly important lesson for people here because you look and see how quickly this tender date jumped into bed with him and and here you have this his wife this by all accounts wonderful woman wonderful mother who clearly didn't know know or didn't see the signs that were there because he was always this. He didn't just become this way. He was this way for a long time. And she's married him and having these kids with him and everything and doesn't realize how much danger they're all in. And so, you know, the lesson is if you can be married to somebody and not realize how much danger you're in, then, you know, you're putting yourself in a very risky situation in many ways when you just hop right in so quickly like that. And Dr. Ryan Russell, please do not get me wrong.

I'm not judging. I don't care cats and dogs sleeping together. I could not care less who is sleeping with who. I don't care what sex you are. I don't care. It's all your business. If you're cheating on your wife, that's on you and whoever you're cheating with or vice versa. But what I am saying is this isn't about just cheating or Tinder or how quickly you sleep with somebody. I'm talking about murder. I'm talking about Shanann Watts buried in a shallow grave

in her T-shirt and underwear and giving birth to her baby because her husband has beaten her and murdered her. That's what I'm talking about. Hi, Nancy Grace here. Have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work, a crush? 57% of Americans admit to keeping an eye on their own online reputation. 46% admit to using the Internet to look an eye on their own online reputation. 46 admit to using the internet to look up somebody from their past. But Google and Facebook, the tip of the iceberg

when it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new website called Truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop on millions of Americans. Truth Finder can search through hundreds of millions of public records in a matter of minutes. Members can literally begin searching in seconds for sensitive data like criminal, traffic, arrest records. Before you bring someone new into your life and around the people you care for, your children, consider using Truthfinder.

What you find may astound you. Go to truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy right away to start searching. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace he seemed like a genuine guy you know i mean he was funny he was charming things were not how i would think that they were supposed to be i guess the front door was locked differently than it normally was i had my son look in the garage to see if her car was there and it was there, which was really peculiar because Shanann doesn't go places without her car.

I came home and it was like I walked into a ghost town. Like everything. She wasn't here. The kids weren't here. It was like it was just they were here and then they were gone. Always out there trying to help people. She was fun, full of life. She did so many things. She had her hand in everything. She was amazing. Love you guys. Have a great day.

Shanann Watts murdered by her husband, Chris Watts, as well as their two little baby girls, Bella and Celeste, and baby Nico. Nico was born spontaneously as Chris Watts had beat and murdered his wife, Shanann. In the last hours, he has been secretly moved to a maximum security facility in Wisconsin across state borders, which is highly, highly unusual. Joining me, Alexis Tereschuk, investigative journalist with RadarOnline.com. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, author of a brand new book, The Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, professor at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, welcome.

Ellen Kalorin joining me right now. Journalist with CrimeOnline.com. Ellen, what can you tell me about Watts pretending to call local hospitals looking for Shanann? Does it ever end with this guy? That's right, Nancy. On the day that Shanann and her girls were first reported missing, the police came to the home, called by a friend, not Chris, and said, yes, guys, if you want to start calling hospitals while we're doing other investigative

work, why don't you do that? The call logs show that Chris made four calls to local hospitals, but the officer who was investigating and saw the length of those calls thought they seemed suspicious. He was only on the call, each call for 60 seconds or less. So the officer called up. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm so happy. If you can be happy at a moment like this, you know what? I just love it. Ashley Wilcott, when a criminal outsmarts himself, okay, when the dog actually catches the stale, then what do you do? Okay, so he tried to cover up the murders, the three murders I consider to be four, including baby Nico, who was found in Shanann's underwear at the time her body was recovered.

Ashley, he called the hospitals to act like he was checking around, but he was only on 60 seconds. You know, you always get put on hold at a hospital while they're searching to try to find the person. You deal with like three or four minutes of Muzak before you find out anything. Listen, here's what's good news in our criminal justice system. News alert, criminals are not always smart. Or in the alternative, they think they're super smart and they're going to outsmart, but that's how cases are solved. And thank God he made that stupid, stupid decision to say 60 seconds that I checked for my family. Ellen Killora and with me at crimeonline.com where you can read the full

25 pages of autopsy report. We managed to get our mitts on. EK, I interrupted you just to pontificate a moment about this idiot. I'm going to have to go to a shrink on this. Hold on, EK. Dr. Brian Russell, oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. You know, growing up in Macon, you never actually finish the sentence. You just say the first half and everybody goes, yeah, whatever the old saying may be. But this guy just made it worse and all of his attempts to cover it up just made it worse and worse and worse. Absolutely. And I think that it absolutely is the case that these people like this guy tend to overestimate how clever and intelligent they are and how able they're going to be to fool everybody. And I totally agree.

Thank God that's the case because a lot of cases would be unsolved today if these people were really as smart as they think they are. Back to you, E.K., you were telling me about how they found out he had tricked himself by covering his tracks in this case. Yeah, the police officer called the hospital himself to see how long it would take to find out information about a patient, and it took much, much longer than the calls that Chris Watts reportedly made. The police officer called it a trail of concocted deceit. But there's one way that Chris Watts wasn't able to cover his trail, and that's because Shanon's best friend, Nicole, knew immediately that something had to have been wrong,

and she called police that morning when Shanon missed a doctor's appointment. Because she called police, that's how they were able to get to the home and know that Shanon had left very important personal belongings behind. Personal belongings that I suspect Chris Watts probably would have tried to get rid of the first chance he got, but he didn't get that chance. You know, the tracks he left behind are incredible. Ellen Kaloran joining us from Crimeonline.com and the revelation that he called several hospitals to pretend he was checking up on Shanann to see if she was in one of the hospitals. It reminds me so much of Scott Peterson and his fake pleas to bring Lacey home. You know, there's an entry also in the discovery

documents, Ellen, that states Nicole Kessinger did an online search for Shanann Watts September 1, 2017. Isn't that before she got involved with Chris Watts, the killer dad? That's right, Nancy. That's several months before she would have been aware of Chris Watts or Shanann Watts, several months before the affair started. So as you can understand, when we saw that entry in the discovery documents, we thought that was very, very significant. And after days, weeks even of calls to try and clarify what that is all about, why is Nicole Kessinger searching for Shanon Watts almost a year before the affair starts, they told us that that was an error. And that's a pretty big error, I think. That's a huge error. And then after that

search, before she got involved in I.E. Sleeping With, Chris Watts, she looked at both Shanann Watts and Chris Watts. And this is a co-worker, right? That's right. That's Nicole Kessinger. Now that we know that there was a major significant error in that report, we are still waiting on confirmation from Weld County District Attorney's Office to confirm other entries in the report that suggest Nicole Kessinger was aware of Chris Watts and Shanann Watts before she said she was. We need confirmation on that. Wait a minute, Alexis Teresha at RadarOnline.com. Isn't it true that, what nerve, Chris Watts actually takes the girlfriend, the mistress mistress Nicole Kessinger to their home and Shanann Watts had the home plastered with photos of her and

him and one he's kissing her pregnant tummy that photo I mean you couldn't go in there without knowing he was married with children no and the house is everything in touch that you could imagine it has all of her personal belongings and all the children's things. This is not a home that one of them has moved out or that the marriage is over. This is a home with an intact, happy family. And, yes, she was there, and she even rode in the car, the Lexus, that she had worked so hard for. She was so successful at her job that she had an $800 a month car allowance,

and that's why she was able to drive this luxury vehicle because she was such a hard worker and she was so successful. This is what she was given. And Chris didn't even care about that. He drove that car on his dates with this mistress. The mistress that he was out with the night before he killed his wife and daughters, they went out to a dinner. He spent $62. And she had said he never paid with anything other than gift cards. They always had a bunch of gift cards at work. And so he always used those. But this time, he used his credit card and the credit card charge popped up immediately. His wife, who again, was out of town working, working so hard to provide for this family, gets the alert and says,

oh my God, $62, that is not an amount of money, A, that we can afford, or B, that one person should have for dinner. So she asked him about it and he lied and he said, oh, I had salmon and beer. She was so suspicious of her husband. She and her friend, they looked up the restaurant menu online. A salmon and a beer was not $62. She knew in her heart that he was cheating on her. I don't know if she knew that this woman had been in her home, the home that she spent years decorating and making a home for their girls, and this woman had been in the car, the car that she was out of town working to make money for. And this is what he did.

He threw it in her face. And this was 24 hours before he ended up murdering her in her own home, the home where the mistress had been. Alexis Tereszczuk, I think they should have tried this guy and put you on the stand to summarize like that because you put 12 women in the box, in the jury box, and they hear he's using her, Alexis, and bringing his mistress to their home and having sex with her right there in front of the family photos. He would totally get the death penalty. She's a wonderful person like she knew i was married yes and i told her we're going through issues yes and i told her that you know we're

going to get you know at the end like you're going to be separate like once i figured out what that was i didn't know what that was going to be i know i had no idea i like you know i saw her took my breath away and i'd never thought in many years that could happen. I know. I think I'm a favorite. But, like, it was, I never felt that way about anybody, like anybody in my lifetime. Chris, that's not your fault. No, I'm just, I mean, can we do this? I know you want to take care of her

because you're the type of guy who takes care of women. You are hearing killer dad Chris Watts admitting his affair with Nicole Kessinger, his co-worker. She is not a suspect. She is not a person of interest at all in this case. Although I'm sure police looked long and hard at her as being part of it, but she was not part of this case. Joining me right now, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, you've read the 25 pages of Autopsy. I want to hear your impressions because people see things differently,

but what did it mean to you that she was wearing just her underwear, her bra, her short-sleeved shirt when she was dumped in that shallow grave? Well, what it means to me, Nancy, is the fact that, you know, early on he had talked about how there was some kind of marital dispute and this sort of thing upon her arrival back home. In my opinion, based upon the way she was dressed, Shanann was taken unaware. It's my opinion that she was reposed in bed, sleeping, completely relaxed. She's probably laying on her side. Let's keep in mind she's pregnant. And that's why, and my thought is she's probably laying on our left side. I think that he may have approached her from her right rear. She's got a focal area of hemorrhage, a large focal area of hemorrhage

on the right aspect of her neck. I think he slowly wrapped his hands around her neck and he choked her out right there. She's very tired, Nancy. She's been traveling. She's pregnant. I know all of the women in the audience that have been pregnant, you know about exhaustion. And she's been beat to death emotionally over this thing, completely asleep. And he didn't even have to apply enough pressure to create the tiki eye. There was no evidence of that. The only trauma that she had was actually to her neck in that particular area, but he used the amount of pressure to take her life while she was sleeping. It just hurts me so much to hear this and to hear about her actually spontaneously vaginally delivering the baby in the midst of all

this. She had a prolapsed uterus, it revealed in the autopsy report. Did you see that, Joe Scott Morgan? Yeah, I did. And I think that maybe a lot of people at home don't understand this, and I'll try to keep it within good measure. Just understand that when our bodies, and all of our bodies do, when we begin to decompose, the muscle tension in our body is not the way it once was. And the reason her uterus prolapsed, essentially kind of turned inside out, is that as a result of the decomposition, the muscle tension released, and Nico, this little baby, was spontaneously delivered. Of course, deceased.

This is commonly referred to as coffin birth. I think that this was experienced or we, you know, we reflected on Scott Peterson a little while ago. And the same thing, if I remember correctly, had happened relative to Lacey. And this is not something that is uncommon. It is something that we see with women that are pregnant at the time of their death, after they've been down for a period of time. But it really draws home the point here. You know, to Dr. Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer, host of ID's Fatal Vows, I've got to ask you, I've been watching over and over video of the monster family killer, Chris Watts. It's of him after he gets rid of the bodies,

he drives up to a convenience store and kind of flirty with a blonde cashier and orders a breakfast burrito, walks out, just, you know, no big deal. He buried his wife and children, stuff his children down those oil canisters whose openings were about eight inches wide, we've been told, then goes and enjoys a breakfast burrito. Well, I think that the comparison that Joe Scott made, and I know you made this earlier as well, to the Lacey Peterson, Scott Peterson and Lacey Peterson case is a good one for three important reasons. One is both cases illustrate the incredible entitlement that is at the core of the personality of the sociopath. I should be able to have whatever I want, no matter who I have to hurt to get it.

Secondly, it appalls me, and I think maybe you as well, that the babies in these cases are not considered murder victims. And the third thing is, you know, the lesson in this for anybody who is out there meeting people on an internet app or site and immediately going to bed with those people, the danger that you could be putting yourself in, you can't underestimate because it could be somebody who is capable of doing this kind of stuff. And if their wives who lived under the same roofs with them didn't see it, you're crazy to think that you're going to see the danger in one cup of coffee with the person. To Ashley Wolcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, you can find her at ashleywolcott.com. Wait in, Ashley.

Listen, here's my issue with Tinder and any of these apps. You're crazy to think, I completely agree with the respected doctor, you're crazy to think you're going to know after one cup of coffee. But listen, it's not worth the risk. If you're out there on something like Tinder, no judging. I don't care what you do, who you do it with, what your choices are. You've just got to be smart about it. And the second she heard he had kids, she said something to the effect of, oh, I thought it was cute. Cute, it's a whole other host of things that you need to think about in protecting yourself emotionally and physically and being smart about whatever decisions you choose to make. To Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what can you tell me

about reports that very disturbing photos show stained clothing Shanann Watts was wearing when she was murdered and buried in the shallow grave by her husband. It did not match what she was wearing in the final picture of her alive. And that photo was taken when she was boarding a flight home to Colorado. This is her going home, having just bought all these self-help books to try and repair their marriage. What can you tell me about the clothing issue, Ellen? That's right, Nancy. She was not wearing the same clothing that she was wearing in her last photograph, which is not long before her murder. I would have to agree with Joseph Scott Morgan that she

had gotten ready for bed. These were probably her pajamas. She was probably relaxed. I think you're right. I think you're both right, Ellen. Alexis Tereshuk, it just breaks my heart thinking of her out buying those self-help books while he's hooking up with women on Tinder and playing out rape fantasies and juggling a mistress at work and the Lord only knows what else. And she's out trying to book a cheap, sexy getaway for the weekend to repair their marriage and buying self-help books, Alexis. And you know, it's the weekend away. She got a babysitter for the weekend away so they could have a romantic getaway. That babysitter is the same babysitter that he on Saturday night. He told that babysitter, their family friends, the babysitter and babysitter's dad. He said, I want a raffle at work. I want free Rockies tickets to go to the baseball game. And I'm going to go with my coworkers. So if your daughter could babysit, that would be great. So she comes and she babysits. He did not go anywhere near that Rockies game. He went out with his mistress.

He went to dinner and went and had sex with her. And then the next day, he goes to the babysitter's house because there's a little birthday party for the girls, and he's still lying about everything he did. But this guy lied to everybody around him. And that was on Sunday. So the night before, he's been out with the mistress. His wife is out of town working. The next day, he starts planning.

He starts telling people, covering for the murders. We wait as justice unfolds for killer dad Chris Watson at Wisconsin facility. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.