Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hear serial killer laugh, brag, describe how he 'loved' the 93 women he murdered

Episode Date: January 1, 2020

The FBI says Samuel Little is the most prolific serial killer in US history. They're now asking for the public's help in identifying more than 90 victims.With Nancy Grace today to discuss the case: Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst Bobby Chacon, Former Special Agent FBI, host of FB Watch Series "Curse of Akakor" Karen Smith, Forensics Expert, Bare Bones Consulting Dr. Tim Gallagher, Medical Examiner for State of Florida Levi Page, CrimeOnline investigative reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. James B. Holland with the Texas Rangers interviewing Samuel Little at the Palmdale Prison Unit, California Bureau of Corrections, Thursday, May 17, 2018 at 1021 a.m. When do you think is the first time you had a killing? 1970. 1970. Do you remember the first one? Yes.

Yeah? Put my hand around my neck and that was it. She evidently wanted this to happen, you know? So how long after the first one before you did the second one? About a month or so. So you're going pretty quick. Yeah, man. How did you kill her? What happened?

Same procedure. I kissed her and everything. I kissed her once. I said, what could you do if I slandered you? There ain't much I could do. You better bless your heart. Oh dear Lord in heaven.

The FBI now confirming that this man, Samuel Little, the most prolific U.S. serial killer in history. We have just gotten our mitts on spine-chilling confessions

and jailhouse sketches that little draws of his victim. Can you just imagine all these families, the children of these women, 93, that we know of, the husbands, the boyfriends, the moms and dads, oh dear Lord. They think that their daughter just left and never came back, just left them, abandoned them. They never knew what happened to mommy. They never knew what happened to their daughter, their girlfriend, their lover, their fiance. Oh, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with me. Truly an all-star panel. Medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. Forensics expert, founder of Beer

Bones Consulting, Karen Smith, former FBI special agent, host of Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor, Bobby Chacon, and renowned psychoanalyst out of Hollywood, Bethany Marshall. You know, first, I got to go to Levi Page, crimeonline.com, investigative journalist, where you can read about this and all other breaking crime and justice news. You know what, Levi? As much as I want to hear from you, I got to hear it from the horse's mouth. We have tapes of serial killer Samuel Little. Listen. I met her in a nightclub

in New Orleans. We walked outside and she looked and seen my car, that Lincoln. She said, ooh, that's a beautiful car too. So she had her arm in her arm walking to the car. We got in, stopped at the gas station. We was on Highway 10 and going toward Slidell.

I seen a sign that said Little Woods. So I cut off. I took off the exit and went, and that's sure enough. It was a road leading into the woods. And we went in and parked. So we finally got to where we were going and by a river, a little water thing, they had a machine out there in that little river. Dredging?

Dredging. I grabbed it by the legs and pulled her to the water. That's the only one that I ever killed by drowning. Describe the location where she's left. Okay, I left her with her head still there in the water. Half her body in the underwater and her thighs and legs on the back. Oh, dear Lord. I know I keep saying, oh, dear Lord,

but just hearing him and hearing him laugh. Now, before I had John David and Lucy, the twins, I would go very often with one of my best friend girls, Renee, who sadly is a defense lawyer, but she and her whole very extensive Cajun family, we would go visit them, drive all the way from inner city Atlanta after court, right there to the Slidell area.

I know, I think exactly what he's talking about. Oh, my. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative journalist. Did you hear him laughing? Yes, and he's talking about CrimeOnline.com investigative journalist. Did you hear him laughing? Yes. And he's talking about them very casually. He's laughing. He has a smile on his face. You would think that he would be talking about a happy time in his life. And the psychologist and the experts can talk about maybe this was a happy time in his life, but it's extremely disturbing to listen to him confess to all of these murders, and we know that he's responsible, confirmed for about 50 murders out of about 93 that he has confessed to, that making him the most prolific serial killer in the U.S., surpassing Gary Ridgeway,

who was convicted of 49 murders in the state of Washington. Well, Levi Page, you're just a fountain of information, aren't you? I mean, I could have done without hearing about Ridgeway on top of Samuel Little, but you just had to do it. Well, actually, Levi, you're right. Bethany Marshall, I want to, Jackie, if you don't mind, I want to go back and play that first sound we heard of Samuel Little. Listen as he describes to Texas Rangers how, quote, she wanted this to happen. Do you remember the first one? Yes. Yeah.

Put her hand around her neck and that was it. She evidently wanted this to happen, you know. So how long after the first one before you did the second one? About a month or so. So you're going pretty quick. Yeah, man. How did you kill her? What happened? Same procedure.

I kissed her. I kissed her on the cheek. I said, what could you do if I slandered you? There ain't much I could do. You better bless your heart. To the second victim, he says, what would you do if I choked you? And he says she wanted this to happen. You know what?

I usually hear that in rape cases, Bethany Marshall. I don't usually hear that in murder cases. Well, one of the things we know about serial killers is that they have prolific fantasy lives. They infuse the memory of the crime as well as the crime itself with sexual excitement. That's one of the MOs of the crime is to choke, look at the victim's face to increase their sexual arousal. So he's probably thought about these crimes so many times while he's in jail. He's relived. He's changed their narrative. He has all kinds of fantasies about what it meant to the woman. So giving the interview, not only is giving the interview a form of reliving the crime, because he's enjoying talking about this, but he's changed the narrative again and again to either minimize the severity of what he did or to infuse it with more excitement

because, you know, all he's doing is sitting in jail with his fantasies. That's all he has at this point. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Gallagher, did you hear what Bethany just said? I mean, just the thought of him getting enjoyment as he watches the victim strangle. What does a victim physically go through as they are strangled? I mean, I can only assume they know what's happening. It's not like you get a blow to the head or your throat is sliced or you take a bullet and you're gone.

That's it. Immediate. Here, you know what's happening to you. You know you're dying. Well, that's true, Nancy. You know, being manually strangled is a very protracted thing and could take as long as three minutes. While you're being strangled, you then become consciously aware

that you are now fighting for your life. And then every ounce of strength you have, you're going to direct it toward the person who's attacking you. Until finally, you run out of strength, your body is deprived of oxygen, and then you cannot fight any longer. You become unconscious. And then after a while, you suffer irreparable brain damage, and that leads directly to your death afterwards. As you are being deprived of oxygen, what would someone experience? I'll give you a sugar-coated version. Do you remember the Alfred Hitchcock movie where Grace Kelly, the husband, of course, is trying to kill her, blah, blah, blah.

And she is being strangled with a stocking. And she is, I want to say dial in for murder. But anyway, long story short, you see her struggling and fighting to live and slowly the energy is ebbing out of her. Having seen real strangulation victims, manual or ligature strangulation victims, it's not as airbrushed as that, but that scenario where at some point you can't fight anymore. I've seen where people claw their face and their neck, deep gouges, trying to get the ligature off their neck. But what happens? Does it start getting dark? Do your lungs hurt?

What happens? I know the petechia in your eye burst. Right. The small blood vessels in your eye do burst, and they form little hemorrhages that you can see on the white parts of your eye. But, you know, before that, you know, we've we've found flesh under the fingernails of victims who were manually strangled. And it's it's it's often their own flesh trying to get the hands off of them. And it's quite often the flesh of the salient. We can get DNA from that and then identify who was doing the strangulation.

But typically, as your brain is deprived of oxygen, the first thing you develop is a very focused tunnel vision, and you are looking directly at your attacker. And as the peripheral vision starts to close off, you start to black out. And then you start to become unresponsive. And then after that, death is soon to follow. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tell me about Mary Ann. This opportunity popped up. Take her to the store.

She didn't bring it back to the apartment. I went down to the 27th Street. That's going down to Fort Lauderdale, called the Alligator Alley. It turns into, it runs in the Alligator Alley. But the further out you get, the further you get out of Miami, and you got vegetation.

And I seen a road going off the main road back into the vegetation on the left side. Got out of the car, pulled it out, and drove her into the groves back there. And pulled her deeper into the path. A little path was running somewhere. I don't know where it led it to, but it was running deeper into the undergrowth.

It's like Everglades like that. And we ran into some water running. But before we got to the water, the earth was mushy. I turned loose and she fell into her face down. And how far outside of Miami do you think you were? About a mile, two miles. What year did Mary Ann occur?

Uh, 72. Joining me, former special agent with the FBI, host of Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor, Bobby Chacon. Bobby, what do you make of it? Well, you can hear him. You can hear a little talk about the locations he was choosing, right? This road that ran off into the Everglades. He knew that these were places that he could, that his predatory behavior would be successful because it was off the beaten track, there was maybe nobody around. And so you can hear his conscious thought as a predator.

This is the mind of a predator, and this is the same thing that goes with any predator that's stalking its prey. It's judging the location. It's knowing when to strike. And those factors, and it's fascinating to hear this predator go through that mental exercise because we know what happens but to hear him verbalize it that you know he's in his mind analyzing the scene as he's that's it's happening he knows there's a potential victim there he's seeing the road that leads off into

a isolated place and you can hear him talking very matter-of-factly doing that analysis in his head that that you know, we always talk about a predator going through, but it's chilling when you can hear him, you know, literally articulate the process that's going on in his brain when he sees a potential victim and he's analyzing whether he should strike. We have obtained actual audio of the most prolific serial killer in the U.S. We believe at least 93 women killed by him, usually the same M.O., the same modus operandi, method of operation. Are there more? Listen to him in his own chilling words.

How many states, different states do you think? Florida, Georgia, come all the way up. East Coast, come down. Triple Powell, Indiana, come down. There's no way to leave. Come all the way down. This is it. You go across, come back up until you get to California.

Los Angeles. How many in L.A.? I'd say about 20. I know it was lost control. And I always was very cautious in trying to keep from getting busted. And I didn't pick on that it would be missed. There was no women nurses and super teachers

and all that kind of stuff. That's the reason why I didn't get busted long time ago. There was no women nurses and civil teachers. That's the reason why I didn't get busted long time ago. You like black girls or black girls better? Black. Yeah. I mean, I ain't prejudiced, but I love black girls. Did you hear that? He doesn't want to be prejudiced.

In who, which women he picks to kill. With me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Bobby Chacon, Karen Smith, Dr. Tim Gallagher, and Levi Page. Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. So far, the FBI is saying that they have confirmed, their word not mine, confirmed 50 of his confessed 93 murders. How can they do that? Because some of these murders date years back. They do. These date back to 1966, I believe, was one of the first ones when he was starting to offend and do armed robberies and things like that. So it's not that we have DNA. It's not that we have the direct evidence. But what's remarkable about Samuel Little, as vile as he is, is his memory. This man has detailed these murders, the location where he was, the timing.

He described the clothing. He described things that he got busted for while he was there, shoplifting and other things that there are records of. So they can go back, maybe talk to surviving family members, describe these women, show them drawings that Samuel Little has done and make identifications that way. So it's not that they have the direct DNA or a fingerprint or anything like that. What they have is the timeline, his description, the information. And they went from there to say that, yeah, they're confident that these 50 belong to Samuel Little. Right now, the FBI desperately asking for

your help to identify so many of the 93 alleged victims of serial killer Samuel Little, including one woman he murdered in Laurel. Listen. Samuel Little says he strangled 93 people in 19 states between 1970 and 2005. The 79-year-old is in California serving multiple life sentences and just recently began admitting to murders investigators believe are credible. I can truly say Samuel Little is a true monster. He's every woman's ultimate nightmare. One of his alleged murders happened in Laurel in 1972. Little admitted to picking up the victim this summer at a Washington, D.C. bus station.

Later drove her to a wooded area where Little said they had sex and he strangled her. He described it when I interviewed him in a way where he was actually excited about describing how he did this murder." A hunter found her body months later. He described the victim and the way that the medical examiner described her matched everything matched. Investigators gave Little supplies to draw his victims when 60 Minutes got a look this weekend. There in the bottom left is a Jane Doe from Prince George's County. Officials say she was between 20 and 25 years old and possibly originally from Massachusetts. Little preyed on vulnerable women across the country, as he told CBS News by phone.

I don't think there was another person that did what I'd like you to do. I think there's only one in the world. And that's not an honor. That is a curse. The FBI is now asking for help in matching confessions to victims, including that Jane Doe found in Laurel 47 years ago. You're hearing our friends there at WJZ, the FBI, desperate to identify all of these women. Remember, their families still, many of them think mommy just abandoned them, when in reality, this devil from hell stalked and murdered them. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us out of LA, Dr. Bethany, did you hear what the FBI agent said?

He said that Samuel Little gets excited in the retelling of the murders. I'm so sick, Nancy. I think that it's important for our listeners to understand the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, a psychopath serial killer. The sociopath is they're parasitic, they lack the conscience, they're lying, conning, manipulativeness.

When you get to the point of psychopath, there's the addition of cruelty in order to enhance their sexual pleasure. That is the difference. So these serial killers and Samuel Little in particular, in order to get off sexually, he would prey on vulnerable women. He would have sex with them. He would manually strangulate them all for the purpose of sexual arousal. That is the MO right there. And again, because he's sitting in jail with nothing else to do but draw these pictures, which is probably like his jailhouse porn, he is excited in the retelling of the story because that is all he

has. And Karen mentioned how he has this prolific memory for detail. I mean, he remembers the car he drove, the underbrush, the size of a woman's thighs, what age she is. This is a man who is so obsessed and preoccupied with his history of killing that he relives it every day. And if he was in society, he would offend again and again. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about Samuel Little, the most prolific U.S. serial killer in history. Take a listen as Samuel Little confesses to murdering, as he says, a, quote, girl in northern Kentucky after a music festival.

We got to Covington, and then we continued through Covington. And there was a park that they were having a festival there. And she heard the music, and she'd offered a band in there. And by her being a hippie type, she, oh, she wanted to get to that. But the police came over and peeped in the car. He really wanted me to move out of there. So we, instead of going in there, I took her the other way. Right.

Winding around, they got hills out in Kentucky, and the road winds around the hills. I seen a little short road going up the hill, and up top there was vegetation. There wasn't no aisles or nothing. And so I pulled up in there and concealed the car in that little vegetation up there on top of the hill. So tell me about this road that goes up the hill. What kind of road is it? It was like a dirt road. Okay.

It was like dirt. The grass was growing in the middle between two tracks. When I left her up in that little road up there, on the side of that little road, she was like partially concealed by the vegetation. Left for left. You are hearing the description of a murder of a, quote, girl in northern Kentucky that was listening to music at a music festival in a park.

I don't get it. To Bobby Chacon, former special agent with the FBI, host of Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor. Bobby, why such detail? Is he proud? Well, you know what? He lacks the empathy that we would normally say, oh my God, how can he do that, right? Because to recall, yes, in a way he is proud, but in a way this is just another regular memory for him that you and I would recall a birthday party or an anniversary in the past. So it's not – he does have a remarkable memory, and he does get some satisfaction, although at his age it's less than it was when he was younger, in recalling some of these crimes. But in this case, the Texas Ranger he's talking to, Holland, developed such an incredible rapport with him that he's actually wanting to help the detective bring closure to

some of the families. And that's what he's been doing. He's been completely cooperating with the interviews since Ranger Holland established that relationship. And you hear him again talk about, you know, this is a situation he just explained where the police came up to his car and shoot him away. He was parked somewhere with his next victim that he wasn't supposed to be, and so they shoot him away, and he just drove on. Now, instead of letting her out of the car in a panic because the police just were there, he actually drove, and he immediately started looking for hills and vegetation

that could, as he said, conceal his car. This is a predatory machine. He's going through the analysis right after leaving the police with the victim in his car of looking for a place where he can carry out his crime. So it's really a fascinating look into the mind of a predator where he's just, the police didn't even phase him. The police coming up to his car with the victim, his car didn't even phase him. And he immediately started to analyze his surroundings on where he could carry out his attack.

Bobby Chacon with me, former FBI, to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, I was earlier asking Karen Smith with Bare Bones Consulting about how the FBI has been able to confirm at least 50 of these alleged 93 murders. Dr. Gallagher, what type of bodily evidence would there be? This much later, I mean, years have passed. Can you go back to a body, even if after it's been buried? Or can you observe tissue at the time? How can they connect him to many of these women?

Well, there are several ways we can do it. Number one would be dental records. If they had any dental records that are still available, we could use those for identification. And the other thing is familial DNA. If there are any members of the family that are left, DNA can still be extracted from the bones of the victim or from the teeth of the victim and that DNA could be analyzed familial familial and or of the victim which would give us a good presumptive identification I know we can ID the victim and I'm trying to figure out how to connect him to a murder I guess one way Karen Smith bare Bare Bones Consulting, would be, as Dr. Gallagher is saying, to put his, Samuel Little's, DNA into the DNA databank, CODIS, and see how many women he connects to over the years, because obviously he raped, sodomized, or performed some other sex act on probably all of the women during the strangulation,

before, during, or after. But what other evidence could we look for beside DNA, Karen Smith? Right. Part of CODIS, which is the Combined DNA Index System, one of those parts is the forensic database. That connects two or more crimes that are connected, and then they can go into the offender database and make a match that way, which is what they've been doing. But here's the thing. If it's been 30, 40 years, Nancy, if you find any skeletal remains, you're going to be dealing with dental records. You're going to be dealing with DNA from bones and things like that. But the one thing that you may be able to find, if they're very lucky are pieces of cloth

and clothing that have not been dragged off, that have not decomposed to the point of being unable to identify that piece of clothing, even if it's a scrap. He described one victim as wearing a cream and red colored skirt. And if there's a small shard of that left, that may be able to also help identify the victim. So you're dealing with jewelry, that doesn't go away. Things like that, earrings, necklaces, rings, that may be able to be found at the location if they're able to locate these bodies. How did Texas Ranger James Holland get this serial killer to confess? The ranger says Little was a cunning killer who sized up his victims and his surroundings. The first thing I picked up on is how wicked smart

he was. Smart? Oh, like genius. Why? Why do you say that? Oh, well, number one, you know, the photographic memory, his memory for details. You're like, Sammy, tell me what's around her. There's three tombstones over there. There's a Caliche Road. Drive down a quarter mile, there's a white Baptist church that needs to be whitewashed. Phenomenal. So how do you reach a serial killer? How do you get them to talk?

You avoid the things that normally work for investigators. What do you mean by that? You avoid things like, you know, remorse and closure for the family. Because they don't have remorse, and they don't care about closure. No, no, it doesn't appeal to them at all. I mean, you're asking them to open up their soul

to the things that are more intimate to them than anything in life. Why should they do that with you? And that's what you're working for. This skinny black girl, real friendly. She was laughing while I was killing her. With Sammy, there's indications of visualization of when he's thinking about a crime scene, he'll start stroking his face. And as he's starting to picture a victim,

you'll see him look out and up. And you can tell he has this revolving carousel of victims. And it's just spinning, and he's waiting for it to stop at the one that he wants to talk about. To Bobby Chico, former FBI special agent host, Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor, Bobby, how do you get someone like Samuel Little to tell it all? Well, in this case, it was very interesting that the Texas Ranger Holland came from Texas to Los Angeles to interview him in jail. He spoke to the LAPD detectives who had arrested Samuel Little, and they told him they had a terrible relationship with him. He wasn't talking to them. He didn't like them.

But they told Holland to use that. In other words, Holland went in and he kind of pretended he didn't like the LAPD and that the LAPD probably treated Little wrongly and things like that. So he played into what the LAPD officers and detectives were telling them about Little. And he basically went in there and he befriended Little. And he didn't judge him. And he went in there very matter-of-factly, tell me about this, tell me about that, without ever expressing the horror that we would normally feel when someone is detailing these things to you. He had to keep basically a poker face on, but he basically used in the very beginning his dislike for the LAPD. And Holland went in there with a feigned similar dislike of the LAPD.

And he found that one piece of common ground initially that he needed to establish that rapport. And everything else in this case flowed out of that rapport. This really does boil down to a very good investigator in Texas Ranger teaming up with two FBI analysts from VICAP, which is our Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, and they gave him all the similar murders across the country that Little may have done. And Holland was able to go through those, and you hear him say, tell me about Northern Kentucky. And Samuel Little goes into what happened in Northern Kentucky. Holland knew about Northern Kentucky because the VICAP analyst told him, we found something very similar in Kentucky that fits this particular MO.

So it was a great teamwork, but it really comes down to the rapport that Holland established with Little very early on, in fact, in their very first meeting. crime stories with nancy grace we are talking about samuel little the most prolific u.S. serial killer in history. Take a listen to what Samuel Little says about Little Rock, Arkansas. Oh, man, I loved her. I forget her name. Oh, wait. I think it was Ruth.

Okay. She was a heavyset, big old yellow gal. And had buck teeth. Had a gap between her teeth, that's what it was. And she, she was light, honey color skin. And she had, her hair was not really long. How tall do you think she was? She was about 5'7".

How much did she weigh? She weighed about close to 200, about 170, 180. Pretty big girl. Yeah. Now where did you meet her at? Okay, down in the crack house. They were, her and about six other girls were sitting on the porch of the WD-7 crack in there.

I stopped to go in there. I seen a girl, that's why I stopped. We stayed together two days or more. I think about three days. We was going shoplifting. We went to Sears. We went to Clover's and that's where I got busted. They took me to jail and she went and stayed in the car.

And the manager of Kroger's, I guess he got tired of her laying on his property in that car. He called the station where I was at in North Arkansas to drop the charges. So he can come down and get this gal and car out of here. They cut me loose. So we was headed toward,

we went to that place where Walmart's original store, then I hooked off the road and back into the little woods. It was a cornfield back there. I pulled through it and on the other side of the cornfield was a trash pile. I parked the car facing out where I could see anybody coming in. So I pulled her out of the car. She's too big for me to carry her, so I just pulled her out of the car and laid her on that trash that was left there. So was it like a corn stalk pile? Yeah, a bunch of corn stalks.

What could you see from there? I could see the highway and in the woods it was that way. But it's right outside of Little Rock. I was about 10 miles from it. From North Little Rock you'd be 10 miles? Yeah, it was about 10 miles. How brazen. To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me from L.A., he could see the highway from where he was. He basically left her dead body

near a highway tree behind some corn stalks. But by the highway. Did you hear when he said, quote, I loved her, but he killed her? And that she had buck teeth with a little gap and that she had honey colored skin. Nancy, you can hear the whole offending pattern in how he tells the story. He starts with her appearance, which is obviously what the Texas Ranger asked him about. He wanted a description, but you have the honey-colored skin, the medium hair, the buck teeth, the little gaps. So this is what he's doing. He's trolling for victims, and he's looking at their appearance. He probably has a type that he likes. Next, he commits some

kind of other petty crime for what purpose, I don't know, at a Kroger's, at a grocery store. Then he starts looking for a place to secrete the body. And there are so many mentions of underbrush or it's like a muddy swamp or the vegetation in the area is very important to him. going out onto a lonely road and then facing back towards the highway it would be interesting to know like why he chose to do that was there something sort of almost exhibitionistic about that as if he's you know killing this woman while at the same time looking down on society you know I think there's something there. I'm not sure that the Texas Ranger would be interested in that aspect of it, but I think it's really fascinating and I think it could

contribute to our common knowledge of serial killers, why they pick certain locations and why they offend in the particular ways that they do. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida, when a body is left out in the elements, does it decompose much more quickly than if it was inside of a structure? Oh, absolutely. And the reason why that is, is because the big variation in temperature. Decomposition is highly variable on the temperature and the external environment. In the outside, the sun is beating down on the body. There are predatory animals. There are scavenger insects that help in the acceleration of decomposition. We often find many pounds of maggots and beetles and worms inside of these bodies when they decompose, and that accelerates the decomposition. You know, after watching and listening to hours of this guy confessing to one murder

after the next, it's like he's describing going on dates with these women. He knows one is named Ruth. He says he loved her. He seems attached to her buck teeth and a little gap between the front two teeth. Bobby Chacon, host of Facebook Watch, Curse of Akakor. I notice he gets more and more animated and into it and excited as he describes how he strangles his victims. At one point, he says she was fighting for her life and I'm fighting for my pleasure. Yeah. And this

is a hallmark of a sexual sadist, which he probably was. And this is what Dr. Marshall described earlier, where he's deriving sexual pleasure out of her fear, anxiety, and pain. And so, you know, I wouldn't be surprised and we'll never know, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of these manual strangulations didn't end in death the first time. In other words, he brings them to the edge of death, and then he allows them to stop breathing again, and then he repeats the act. So the sexual gratification that a sexual sadist will achieve is not from the sex act itself, but it's actually the lead-up. And, of course, now that he's able to talk about it again, he's reliving that, and he's deriving pleasure from it again.

So that's what you're hearing in his voice. You're hearing that satisfaction and that pleasure that he's getting, recalling these many horrific crimes, you know, decades later. Take a listen to what this prolific serial killer, Samuel Little, says about Vegas. She was kind of thin, dark skinned, about 40 years old. She was out there hustling. I think she was a drug addict because she wouldn't be out there. How tall was she?

She was about 5'5", 5'3". And how much do you think she weighed? She weighed about 110, 120. What about her did you know? The boy came, she was the son. She called him over. And he came over, hey, hey, hey, shook my hand and everything. Now how old was he?

He was about 20 or about 19, 20. Okay, black male? Black male. And where were you at when you met her? It was on Owens Avenue. Okay. Jackson. Where did you eventually take her body to?

I was headed toward California. So as I drove out of Las Vegas, I seen a motel and a road leading up to the motel. And I said, there's a bunch of impressions of us beside the road before you got to that motel. That's where I dropped, pulled the bird bite out and rolled it down there. And I heard a secondary roll of noise. That meant she was still rolling.

To Dr. Bethany Marshall, Bobby Chacon, Karen Smith, Dr. Tim Gallagher, and Levi Page, the FBI is still begging the public to help identify these victims and bring some peace to their long-abandoned families. Can you even imagine that kind of pain? Go to CrimeOnline.com where you can see not only see and hear Samuel Little's confessions, analyze and judge them for yourself, but also links to help identify these women. We now know at least 93 women terrorized, sexually assaulted, and murdered. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.