Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEARTBREAK IN DESPERATE SEARCH FOR 2-YEAR-OLD TOT BOY AFTER MOM & DAD GO ON THE RUN

Episode Date: August 2, 2019

Police confirm remains found are a 2- year-old toddler shot in the head. With Nancy Grace today to discuss the tragedy of Aiden Salcido's case: Family Attorney Kathleen Murphy, Medical Examiner Dr Michelle Dupree, Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Forensics Expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and special guest Reporter Marian Davidson with KECI NBC Montana. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We start with breaking news tonight. Medford, Oregon police and the FBI are trying to figure out what's happened to a missing two-year-old boy after his parents were involved in an apparent murder-suicide in the flathead a couple of nights ago. Medford investigators say Daniel Salcido and Hannah Janiak were reported missing in Oregon in mid-June. The couple has a child together, two-year-old Aiden Salcido. Police say they have a record of the family buying camping equipment at Walmart in Medford

back on June 3rd and 4th. Janiak was scheduled to report to jail on a burglary conviction just a few days after that. But the next trace of the couple comes two nights ago in the Flathead when the pair took off after a traffic stop by Kalispell Police. Following a brief chase, police spiked their SUV's tires and the pair pulled off the road. But when deputies approached, they found Janiak dead of a gunshot and Salcido dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot. Now, the SUV was apparently purchased in

late June or early July in Central Point, Oregon, but there's no trace of the boy, and investigators say tonight they're greatly concerned. Anyone with information should call the authorities. In the last hours of breaking news in the case of a missing little two-year-old boy, Aiden Salcido, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. The FBI launching a desperate search for the little boy, just two years old. What do we know? Take a listen. First, you are hearing from our friends at KPAX. Here's Fox Q13. The Medford Police Department in Oregon, they're still searching for a missing toddler. Yeah, authorities say the two-year-old's parents were involved in a murder-suicide in Montana, unfortunately.

Daniel Salcido and Hannah Janak were reported missing last month. Officials say this could stem from criminal convictions for a burglary. Janak did not appear for her sentencing on June 11th, FOR A BURGLARY. JANIAK DID NOT APPEAR FOR HER SENTENCING ON JUNE 11TH. AND NO ONE HAD HEARD FROM THE COUPLE UNTIL A POLICE OFFICER IN CALLISPIL, MONTANA TRIED TO PULL THEM OVER AND THEY DROVE AWAY. OFFICIALS SAY WHEN THE PURSUIT ENDED, OFFICERS FOUND THE COUPLE DEAD FROM GUNSHOTS INSIDE THE CAR. 2-YEAR-OLD AIDEN. OFFICIALS IN MONTANA SAY HE WAS NOT IN THE CAR WHERE THEY FOUND HIS PARENTS DEAD.

AUTHORITIES ARE CONCERNED FOR HIS SAFETY AND OF COURSE HIS WELL BEING AND ASKING HELP FROM THE PUBLIC. not in the car, fortunately, where they found his parents dead. Authorities are concerned for his safety and, of course, his well-being and asking help from the public. They say use the hashtag FindAiden on social media to share any information that you may have. Guys, I'm taking a look at this little boy, 2-year-old Aiden Salcido. He's standing with a little backpack in front of a little play table, exactly like one my children had, that they played on constantly. And he reminds me so much of my twins at age two. Now, the parents did apparently of a murder-suicide, but what about Aiden? It's really hard for me to take in that someone would be so selfish that they would rob a child of both parents. We're going to start at the beginning.

Joining me in All-Star panel, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer who has seen scenarios like this many, many times, renowned medical examiner, Dr. Michelle Dupree out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, well-known psychoanalyst out of Hollywood, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan.

But right now to a special guest joining us from KECI NBC, Montana, Marian Davidson. I'm going to start at the very beginning. Marian Davidson, thank you for being with us. When did we first realize two-year-old Aiden was missing? You know, it didn't come out right away. All of this happened pretty quickly, but we didn't know right away when the police first made contact with the couple and found them dead in the car. We didn't find out until a couple days later that Aiden was not with them. Well, actually, Marian Davidson joining me from KECI, that makes perfect sense. When cops pull over, they find two dead bodies. How are they supposed to know that somewhere out there,

like a needle in a haystack, there's a two-year-old little child? I mean, really, Justice Scott Morgan, forensics expert, you and I have been to a million crime scenes. Why would they think that somewhere out there, there's a little boy missing? You wouldn't have any indication of that, Nancy, until you began to work the scene. And where this stems from is that once you have these individuals that are deceased, you're working this murder-suicide scene, you're going to dig in, and you're going to maybe find pictures of a child. You're going to contact their family, and the family are going to say,

hey, where's the baby? Where's the baby? And suddenly you come to the realization you've got a missing child on your hands. You know, Kathleen Murphy with me, North Carolina family lawyer, you've seen this so many times, a murder-suicide in a domestic homicide situation. Look, I get it. I've dealt with many, many people suffering from depression, especially when I was working at the Battered Women's Center. And the desire to kill yourself can be overwhelming. It's almost like an addiction for some people. It's just like this force they can't stop. But when you have a child, to be so callous as to kill your partner and kill yourself and just

leave the child. I mean, I don't get that, Kathleen. You would think that in 2019, with all the resources that are available for victims of domestic violence, that we would see a decrease in this type of murder, suicide, and children put in danger. But it's ongoing. And all I can say is, if any of your listeners are victims of domestic violence, there is help and your family should surround the child and protect your children. Guys, we are bringing you the very latest in the search for a two-year-old little boy, Aiden Salcido. This little boy, at first they didn't even realize there was a child connected to these two dead bodies. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner out of South Carolina,

author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, how do they know when they look at a body, how can you tell, oh, this is a murder-suicide? How do you know somebody didn't carjack them or attack them? I mean, how do you tell it's a murder-suicide? Well, Nancy, we look at the injury itself itself and we determine how far the gun was, if that's what was used, how far that was from the actual target or from that person. And then we determine if it was possible for that person to do that to themselves or not. So we look at the body and the injury itself. I still don't understand. How do you look at an injury,

a gunshot wound, and tell this is a suicide and this is a murder? How do you look at an injury a gunshot wound and tell this is a suicide and this is a murder how do you know that well again we look at the totality of circumstances but we look at the gunshot wound if there is stippling or tattooing which is small powder burns on the skin then we know that it was an immediate intermediate gunshot wound if it's a muzzle imprint then we know there was skin contact if it wasn't then we know that it was within that and we know that the person okay hold on hold on hold on dr dupree please i feel like jackie who is that guy that speaks the other language on the new set of star trek movies he is kind of green yeah she's a kind of a you're like speaking you're not even speaking anything i've heard on this earth not swahili not i don't even know what you're saying okay try to talk

regular people talk to me i know you're way way like far far warp speed ahead of me but what did you just say like how how can you look let's just this. How can you look at a gunshot wound to a human body and say that's a suicide? Remember, talk slowly. You're talking to me. We look at the injury itself. And so we look at a couple of things. First, we look to see if there is a muzzle imprint or an imprint of that gun on the skin. If it is, then we know that the gun was in contact with the skin.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't have done it, but we do know that that person then could have done that to themselves. A little bit farther distance from the person is going to leave, a lot of people call it powder burns, but the technical term is actually tattooing or stippling. And that's little etches in the skin that come from the gunpowder and other things that come out of the muzzle of a gun. If we see that, then we know that it is an intermediate gunshot wound. So the person could have done that to themselves.

And again, someone else could have done it as well. Okay, let me dummy it down. Let me dummy it down just for a moment jackie tell me if this makes sense to you because she's just way smarter than we are you ready if you shoot yourself point blank like the barrel touching your head you will see powder burns or tattooing or stippling where the heat and the gunshot residue actually gets on your skin from the gun. That's how you know it's a point blank range gunshot wound. If it's 36 inches or less, you'll have gunshot residue on your body. If I shoot you in the car, I'll probably have that on my body. Also, if the person is shot in the mouth or the temple in a trajectory path, which way the bullet is going, shows that they could have shot themselves, not like straight down from the top of their head or in the back of their head where they

couldn't have done that. Plus, you look around the inside car. You know what? I'm getting way in the weeds on this. What matters is two-year-old Aiden Salcido. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We start with breaking news tonight. Medford, Oregon police and the FBI are trying to figure out what's happened to a missing two-year-old boy after his parents were involved in an apparent murder-suicide in the flathead a couple of nights ago. Medford investigators say Daniel Salcido and Hannah Janiak were reported missing in Oregon in mid-June. The couple has a child together, two-year-old Aiden Salcido. Police say they have a record of the family buying campy equipment at

Walmart in Medford. Back on June 3rd and 4th, Janiak was scheduled to report to jail on a burglary conviction just a few days after that. But the next trace of the couple comes two nights ago in the Flathead when the pair took off after a traffic stop by Kalispell Police. Following a brief chase, police spiked their SUV's tires and the pair pulled off the road. But when deputies approached, they found Janak dead of a gunshot and Salcido dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot. Now, the SUV was apparently purchased in late June or early July in Central Point, Oregon, but there's no trace of the boy.

And investigators say tonight they're greatly concerned. Anyone with information should call the authorities. We are bringing you the very latest in the disappearance of a two-year-old little boy, Aiden Salcido. Dr. Bethany Marshall, we clearly have a homicide-suicide in a vehicle. At first, cops don't even realize that there is a child connected to these two dead bodies. And I've got to ask you, Dr. Bethany, you're the psychoanalyst. You're the Beverly Hills queen of psychoanalysis. Help me out. I understand. I can't say I understand it, but I'm familiar with that overwhelming desire to commit suicide. I've seen, I don't even know how many domestic homicides typically where the man shoots the woman out of anger, out of rage, out of resentment. But when you have a

child to take away both the parents of the child, to me, that's a whole nother mindset. Help me out. Well, you're right. It's a whole nother mindset and a whole nother mindset. Help me out. Well, you're right. It's a whole nother mindset and a whole nother psychology. So most people who want to kill themselves are preoccupied with their own misery. They are thinking that it would be much better to not be on this earth. They usually have a co-occurring psychiatric or substance abuse disorder. 90% of people who successfully terminate their life have some kind of substance abuse difficulty. That is not what we're seeing here. Murder-suicide in the context of a marriage, the psychology is that you have a personality disordered, disturbed partner, usually the man, and a non-personality disordered spouse, usually the woman.

And the woman is in some way making the husband feel inferior and insulted at some pathological extreme level. So he gets this thought in his head, I don't know if I'm going to be better off if you're gone or if I'm gone. I want to kill you. No, I want to kill myself. And the murder to kill the other person or oneself, in other words, the homicidal and the suicidal instincts, which lie side by side, oscillate.

Now, if you think of the matrix of domestic abuse, usually abusers want to kill the child to get back at the spouse, right? We know children are used as pawns. To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, these two, wait a minute, Kathleen, to Marion Davidson, KECI, NBC Montana, who's been on the story from the very beginning. Let me understand something. Weren't both of these parents fleeing police at the time they were found? Tell me about that. Because many people thought they just happened to be found in a vehicle, murder,suicide, but they were actually on the run.

Yeah, that's right. When they were pulled over in Kalispell, it actually started as just a pretty routine traffic stop for an out headlight. But then when the officer got to the car, he called for backup. Well, he had asked for identification. They gave him false names names and then he called for backup. And as soon as he called for backup, that's when they took off. And then it was right after that chase, when police then approached the car after it was pulled over, that's when they

found them dead in the car. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. How many times are perps caught because of, believe it or not, a traffic infraction? A big one was Timothy McVeigh. He was actually pulled over the Oklahoma City bomber that brought down the Murrah building, the federal building, like the one I worked in in downtown Atlanta when I was a law clerk to a judge, brought down the building, including the daycare in the bottom. He had, I think it was like this, a broken out taillight and they pulled him over and they found all type of bomb explosive material in his car and it happens a lot people don't believe it and it reminds me of something joe scott morgan i've told you this

story before i i know i have when i was a brand new prosecutor i got a file i opened it up and the police officer had written a really short police report and it said i was at so and so it was in a housing project at the corner of x and y and the perp jackie howard let's just pretend jackie held up a small glassing bag at me standing on the corner trying to solicit me undercover to buy a five rock a five dollar hit of crack and I arrested him I looked to the officer who would come to court that day I went get the hell out of my courtroom how dare you try to frame somebody and then give it to me to prosecute what idiot in their right mind would believe a doper would wave cocaine at you from the corner. I mean, I'm so embarrassed. I don't know his name. I don't remember anything about him.

How disgusted he must have been at me at that moment. Miss hotshot out of law school. And probably been working all night and got up early to come to court. He left. All right. Fast forward like six months. I'm out on the street working a case, trying to find witnesses. I'm in that neighborhood. I'm at a red light. Guess what? I look over. Here I am, a little white Honda. I look over. A guy holds up a glassine bag and waves it at me. I'm like crap okay so i know sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction joe scott but it does happen people get pulled over for a taillight and they turn out to be serious perpetrators yeah time and time again nancy and you know that's the thing that's one of the also one of the dangers of being a police officer when you approach that vehicle just because they have a busted taillight you never know what kind of mischief has preceded

this and sometimes you know i've had cops friends of mine that have approached vehicles where they have actually interacted with individuals that have killed two and three people and it was only by the grace of god, in their words, it was a providential event that they weren't killed themselves. And this does happen. The devil is always in the details. And a lot of this plays into this idea. If you are a police officer, you have to pay attention to the little things, because sometimes that's what brings a case to a conclusion. Well, all our discussion about taillights and pulling people over in the Murrah building and a glassy bag of crack, what matters is two-year-old Aiden Salcido.

Guys, I want to tell you about something very important to me. I hope you can join me this Saturday, 6 o'clock Eastern, 5 Central, on Oxygen for Injustice with Nancy Grace. I think about this woman so often, Michelle Mockbee. She got up super early one morning, got her coffee in her car, checked on her two little girls, and headed off to work early. She wanted to take a few days off at the end of the week to spend time with her children and her husband. So she goes to work, this big, huge, sprawling laboratory and processing center, Thermo Fisher. She was head of HR. She never saw her children alive again. She was brutally murdered at work, the perp dragging her body, leaving a trail of blood from her office.

Who in that sprawling lab had an ax to grind with Mom Michelle Mockbee? Who sentenced her little girls to life without a mom? We reinvestigate the case, shining lights on what really happened. Please join us Saturday, Oxygen, 6 o'clock Eastern, 5 Central, in the case of the murder of mom Michelle Mockbee. We want justice.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us right now. The search for a two-year-old little boy, his mom and dad have been pulled over. And it wasn't as simple as a pullover for a traffic stop. Cops apparently had to throw down spike strips in front of the car. Marion Davidson, KECI, is that true? How did spike strips get into it? That is true.

The spike strips got involved after a police chase. The two were pulled over originally for a very routine traffic stop. When the officer called for backup, they tried to flee and that caused a police chase. And that's where the spike strips were deployed. Okay, wait, let me understand this. Kathleen Murphy, when a cop comes up behind me, all right, and I used to argue this to juries all the time. If I see a cop pulling up and I hear whoop whoop i pull over if i see a blue light i pull over i do not want a problem with the cops now i may accidentally flash my badge or i may like oh i'm so sorry i may quickly put on my atlanta police department t-shirt have it handy. No, all that is absolutely not true. I take my ticket and I pay it and don't whine about it. But I would argue this to juries. You suddenly hit the gas. I'm not going to hit the gas and take off 90 MPH like these two did.

And the cops had to throw down spike strips for Pete's sake. Could you explain what a spike strip is, Kathleen Murphy? And I always find it so interesting. When I see you, Kathleen, because you look like a... I haven't been stopped in years. You look like this, like, sweet soccer mom, and your hair is always perfect, and you've got such a sweet little voice, and you take off about spike strips and murders. I love it. Go ahead, Kathleen. Explain a spike strip.

A spike strip is a device that's put in the road so that when we drive over it, not me personally, of course, but when it's driven over, the tires will blow out and the car will stop, essentially, because it can't move any further without the tires operating. I have to laugh at this, Nancy, because I actually have been stopped twice in the last 30 days by police officers. Wanted to run, didn't run. For tickets, only for... Okay, I'm glad to hear that. You might be on the Nancy Gray Show. Guys, we're talking about a missing two-year-old little boy, Aiden Salcido. His parents apparently on the run from cops, and this is what I know about why they're on the run. Joining me is Marion Davidson out of KECI NBC Montana. Police and the FBI had been desperately seeking two-year-old Aiden after his parents were fleeing a prison sentence in Oregon and skipped town. That's why they took off running. They were pulled over inadvertently for a taillight being knocked out of their car.

And then in the midst of that, they take off. Cops had no idea what they were dealing with. They end up having to throw out spike strips to take out their tires, and then they're found dead. At first, cops didn't even know a two-year-old little boy was connected to this crazy couple in an apparent murder-suicide in Montana, then they realize there is a little boy. Where is he? Two-year-old Aiden. Right now, breaking news. Again with breaking news, the Medford, Oregon Police Department says Montana authorities may have found the remains of a missing two-year-old. We don't know officially if it is Aiden Salcido, but the remains were near the area where his parents were seen by witnesses several days earlier.

As we reported Saturday, Hannah Janiak and Daniel Salcido were found dead in an apparent murder-suicide on Wednesday. Both were wanted on felony burglary warrants. News 5 will continue to follow this story. We'll bring you any information as soon as we get it. You are hearing from our friends there at Fox 5 and the discovery of a body of a child. If this is not Aiden, then who is it? Take a listen to our friends at KPAX. Law enforcement believes the toddler is possibly the missing child whose parents died in a murder-suicide in the Flathead earlier this week. Aiden Solicito has been missing for nearly four days.

Today, a body, which authorities believe to be Aiden's, was found near a campground where witnesses last saw him along with his parents. Hannah Janiak and Daniel Solicito were found dead in a vehicle on July 24th after a police chase on Highway 93 in Kalispell. Let's break this all down. Medford, Oregon investigators say the family was reported missing in Oregon in mid-June. Police say they have a record of the family buying camping equipment at a Walmart in Medford in early June. The next trace of that

couple came on Wednesday night in the Flathead when the pair took off after a traffic stop by Kalispell police. It's after police found the parents dead in an apparent murder-suicide when authorities noticed the child was no longer with them. Authorities have been searching for that boy since, and today Medford Police, along with Montana Police, believe they have found the two-year-old dead near a Lincoln County campground. Straight out to Marion Davidson, KECI NBC Montana. How did cops find this body in a camping area and what was the

cause of death? Do you know? You know, finding that body was not easy. So after they realized that there was a missing two-year-old in this case, authorities had a huge geographic distance to cover. I mean, if you think between Medford, Oregon and Calispell, Montana, that's a really large swath of land there. But a tip from a concerned citizen actually led them to a very, very rural spot in Lincoln County, Montana. A person out recreating saw this, this green SUV that they'd been driving and they thought twice actually, and they had the wherewithal to call the Lincoln County authorities and let them know. And that brought police out to this very rural campground. I was actually out there and it's on a dirt road. I, you know,

it's on a highway on a dirt road. They drove miles and miles down that dirt road. And it's very, very thickly wooded terrain. So they got out there, they found the remnants of the campsite, and they began a ground search. But that that area is not easy to search. So they searched for gosh, I think they I was told that they were out there until 3am searching and then took they got back out there after a few hours of rest got back out again with authorities from the Flathead County Sheriff's Office, Lincoln County Sheriff's Office, Medford Police. And then around 6 o'clock, they brought in search dogs. And within an hour, they were able to locate a toddler's body. For those of you just joining us, we are discussing the disappearance of a two-year-old, a beautiful two-year-old little boy, Aiden Salcido.

Parents Daniel Salcido and Hannah Janiak found victims of murder-suicide on the run from a burglary charge in Oregon. You know, on a burglary, they probably would have gotten like five years to do and done like maybe eight months max behind bars. Instead, when they're pulled over for a taillight infraction on their car, they take off running. They commit murder-suicide, and when cops get to the bodies, they have no idea that somewhere out there is a two-year-old little boy connected to these two. CRIME STORIES WITH NANCY GRACE. LINCOLN COUNTY SHERIFF DARREN SHORT REPORTS THE MONTANA STATE CRIME LAB IN MISSOULA IS CONFIRMING THE TODDLER WAS IN FACT TWO-YEAR-OLD AIDEN SALCIDO. HIS REMAINS

WERE FOUND OVER THE WEEKEND ALONG WEST FISHER CREEK, SOUTH OF LIBBY, A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER MEDFORD, OREGON POLICE ISSUED AN ADVISORY TRYING TO LOCATE THE MISSING BOY. HIS PARENTS, HANNA JANIAK AND DANIEL SALCIDO, DIED IN A MURDER-SUICIDE AFTER A ROUTINE TRAFFIC STOP IN CALISPEL TURNED INTO A SHORT PURSUIT. THE PAIR HAD TAKEN OFF AFTER BEING STOPPED BY a routine traffic stop in Kalispell turned into a short pursuit. The pair had taken off after being stopped by a Kalispell officer and then pulled onto a side road after their car tires were spiked. Deputies found them dead when they approached the car. Medford police say the pair had apparently taken off just days before Janiak was to have reported to jail to serve time in a burglary conviction in early June.

But little is known of their travels or activities during the weeks they were on the road. You are hearing from our friends at KTVQ. Now, the body of a two-year-old boy has been found. Cops now trying to determine, is it Aiden? Listen to our friends at KPAX-TV. An autopsy may help us understand how a two-year-old toddler died before his parents took their own lives following a police pursuit in the Flathead. Flathead County A TOPSY MAY HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW A TWO-YEAR-OLD TODDLER DIED BEFORE HIS PARENTS TOOK THEIR OWN LIVES FOLLOWING A POLICE PURSUIT IN THE FLATHEAD. FLATHEAD COUNTY SHERIFF BRIAN HAYNOE TELLS K-PAX THAT LINCOLN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE IS TAKING THE LEAD IN THIS CASE. THEY BELIEVE THE BODY DISCOVERED NEAR FISHER RIVER EAST OF LIVEE IS THAT OF TWO-YEAR-OLD AIDEN SALCIDO, WHO WAS REPORTED MISSING FRIDAY, A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER HIS PARENTS DIED IN A MURDER-SUICIDE OUTSIDE CALLISVILLE. Salcido, who was reported missing Friday, a couple of days after his parents died in a murder-suicide

outside Kalispell. They were identified as Hannah Janikak and Daniel Salcido. Last Wednesday night, a Kalispell police officer tried to stop the couple for a broken light on their vehicle, but they gave some false identification and then took off. When they pulled off onto a side road, deputies approached and found them dead of gunshots in their car. Autopsies are also being done for Salcido and Janiak. To Marion Davidson, KECI, NBC Montana. Marion, how was the little boy, Aiden Salcido, killed? The autopsy confirmed that he was killed by a gunshot wound to the head.

You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us, I don't understand it because this little boy, Aiden Salcido, was killed well before the two parents had gone on the run before they were pulled over. So they killed their little boy first. What I'm guessing, Nancy, is this was a typical domestic violence situation. And we know that in domestic violence situations, the children are targeted to get back at one of the parents. So let's say if the father is the abuser, hates the mother, feels rejected, feels that she is going to abandon or betray him, instead of lashing out at her, he will lash out at the child. So one scenario is that the father, Daniel Salcido, killed Aiden in order to punish his wife.

Now, the other scenario is that they acted in concert. In other words, that Daniel may have been one of these paranoid characters who tried to brainwash his wife into thinking that Aiden was a problem and Aiden was bad. And it was primarily a child abuse situation that escalated into homicide. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Aren't you forgetting a major, major fact? And that is they were both involved in a burglary. They were both on the run. That's absolutely true, Nancy. But I don't think that fleeing law enforcement is a reason to kill a child because that parental bond is so strong. No, I know that. But what I'm saying is it's not like he was forcing her into a burglary. She was part of that. They were both to report

to an Oregon prison for a burglary. It was time to go to the pokey. Well, that may speak to the theory that she was brainwashed into acting in concert with him, that maybe he was the primary criminal and the one that masterminded this, I guess, small town burglary and that he convinced her that she should go along with him. But then that means that she could also have been the passive type of individual that allowed herself to be seduced into thinking it was time to get rid of the child. Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

Dr. Dupree, how often do you see a whole family wiped out? Well, unfortunately, it's more often than any of us would want to see it. And as was just said, we find that families that have domestic violence, the children are three times more likely to suffer some type of injury from this type of goings-on in the home. To Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, we also know that some of the forensic evidence shows that they had both been out shopping with the little boy, shopping for camping equipment at Walmart. You're absolutely right, Nancy.

And, you know, they've got the family on CCTV. And keep in mind, this is the last time that aiden was known to be alive i think i think my thought here and it's very sad is that when they purpose to go out and camp was this uh was this their intent to go to this isolated area just as the reporter had stated she stated it was very isolated they went out there with the single single purpose to dispose him, to end his life and to walk away from him. And for all of these selfish reasons, starting new life on their own without the burden of the child in their life. But why buy camping equipment to do that? I mean, they're caught, as you said, on closed circuit TV buying camping equipment and other things.

And they clearly use that to go to this campsite, and then they suddenly decide to kill Aiden and go on the run? I think maybe in desperate times like this, they're facing the potential of going to prison, and maybe on the run he was just too much. He was too much of a burden for them to have to carry around. And that I hate that the sound of that coming out of my mouth because it just diminishes his level of life so much. But they get out there and they finally make this fatal decision to end his life

and to go on about it. Maybe they just wanted to be able to go out and be contemplative about it before they decided to end his life. One never knows. Are you kidding me? Kathleen Murphy, did you hear what he just said? These two wanted to go out and be contemplative? Okay, i.e., think about it, contemplate it, kick it around intellectually before they murder their kid. That's BS. Sorry, Joe Scott.

That is major BS. Contemplative, my rear end. Kathleen Murphy, these two are like sharks. They are. But, Nancy, where were the people that were supposed to keep this child safe knowing these parents were going to jail? How did that child get with them and go on this supposed camping trip knowing that the parents were going to jail?

We all have to watch out for our children. This is what I know. This little boy is dead. And I wonder if family, if relatives, if neighbors knew it was such a powder keg and did nothing. A two-year-old little boy gone because of these two parents. May they rot in hell. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.