Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HEARTBREAKING REVEAL: MOM SAYS MISSING GIRL, 6, "EATEN BY WOLVES," WHERE'S OAKLEY?

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

Grays Harbor County Undersheriff Brad Johansson told the press, "We are hoping for the absolute best but, unfortunately, preparing for the worst." He was referring to 5-year-old Oakley Carlson, who is missing. Her parents have been arrested for not cooperating with investigators. Oakley Carlson was just 8 months old when foster parents Jamie-Jo and Eric Hiles took her in. Over the next two years, she became part of their family. However, during Thanksgiving, Washington's Department of Children, Youth, and Families reunited Oakley with her biological parents, Jordan Bowers and Andrew Carlson. Nine months later, Oakley was missing, but no one realized it immediately. After a fire at the home of Bowers and Carlson, Oakville Elementary School Principal Jessica Swift visited to bring supplies for the family. During her 45-minute visit, she did not see Oakley. When she asked about the child, Bowers and Carlson claimed Oakley was in her room. Later, Oakley's sister attended a sleepover at Swift's home. When Swift inquired about Oakley, the girl became upset and said, "Oakley is no more." Pressing further, Swift was told that Oakley had returned to her former foster parents. Concerned, Principal Swift contacted the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Office to request a welfare check. Officers located the family in a hotel room, where they were staying due to the fire damage. Oakley was not with them. The parents provided inconsistent accounts of Oakley's whereabouts and eventually stopped cooperating. A search of their home revealed no signs that Oakley had lived there recently, as well as a bloody handprint on a wall in a downstairs hallway Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Jamie Jo Hiles - Oakley Carlson's foster mom Jarrett Ferentino – Pennsylvania Attorney/Homicide Prosecutor; Facebook & Instagram: Jarrett Ferentino; Host: “True Crime Boss” Podcast Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Dr. Carole Lieberman - Renowned Beverly Hills Psychiatrist {specializing in treating patients impacted by terrorism} Author: LIONS and TIGERS and TERRORISTS, OH MY!  Dave Mack - Crimeonline.com Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A heartbreaking reveal. Mommy says her missing little girl, just six years old, was eaten by wolves. Really? Where's Oakley? I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. The desperate search for a missing little girl continues. What happened to Oakley Carlson? Where is Oakley? And, and, and, and, and, and, um, um, um, look, I need to take a son from me. Oakley. And he took his phone from you? Yeah. Did you have Andrew's phone?

Yeah. I was in Tocqueville, Maryland. Okay. And then you take it. And then what happened? And Jordan put him back in his bed. Is there anything more precious than a little baby girl? This case is haunting not just me, but so many others. And then Jordan put, okay, Jordan put Andrew back in his bed?

Yeah. Oh. Did she hit him, Oakley? Yeah, him dead, like, with your heart, like... Jordan, why did she hit him? Because him, because her, him, him was being mean. Why was he being mean? Like, rawr! How many nights I have lain awake wondering, where is Oakley? Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go to a very special

guest joining us, Jamie Jo Hiles. Jamie Jo was Oakley's foster mom and loved her so much. Jamie Jo, thank you for being with us and leading the rally to try and find Oakley. Tell me how you ended up getting to foster Oakley to start with. We were really fortunate when it came to fostering Oakley. She kind of almost fell in our lap. It was as if, you know, a family friend contacted us and said, Hey, I know of a foster child that is most likely going to be put into adoption. Is this something that you're interested in doing? And my husband and I looked at each other across the couch and we just were like, yeah, let's do it. And we weren't sure at first if it was going to be a long term situation or a short term. But as the years went by, we were like, wow, like this is actually happening.

Like we're going to get to adopt her. And we love the time that we had with Oakley. Tell me about Oakley. I'm seeing all these fantastic photos that you so kindly have given us. It's you and Oakley, your husband with Oakley. And she's so happy. She is so happy, Jamie Jo. Yeah, she was a happy little girl. Like, I know that I, she definitely had her toddler moments, but she was such a good little girl. She was polite. She was adventurous. She wasn't scared of anything. She tried all of her food that we put in front of her and she slept all night. She was adventurous. She wasn't scared of anything. She tried all of her food that we put in front of her and she slept all night.

She was just the best little girl you could ever think of. I'm looking at a photo of you and that's when she's little and then progressing. Now she's got on tennis shoes and walking. Now she's with you. She's got all of her baby teeth and she's got a big smile. There she is with your husband, kissing him, sitting on his shoulders. Here you guys are all dressed up. She looks like little Bo Peep.

Just the love on her face. That's what happens when a child is really loved. Tell me about your daily routine with Oakley. Yeah, so a lot of the time, Oakley would go to the daycare here in town. I'd pick her up after school and then we would always go to sporting events, whether that was like the high school basketball or I coached a dance team at the high school where I work. And so she would often come to dance practice with us. We had her in dance class also.

So every Tuesday she would go to her little ballet class. And then the weekends we were always doing something something going to the zoo, going to the Hands-On Children's Museum, going to the beach, anything like that to kind of get those experiences with her that every little kid should get to have. Oh, my stars, Jamie Jen Hiles. You're reminding me of when the twins were little, I felt like a cruise director. Every weekend I was trying to think, what can we do with the twins this weekend? Whether it's the hands-on museum or some other museum or some festival or looking for pumpkins or picking strawberries or just anything to get them out and about and see their face light up and have a brand new experience. The dance classes, the soccer, the this, the that, just there I saw her in the floor playing with

pots and pans, something the twins love for me to take out all the pots and pans out of the cabinet, put them all on the floor and give them two wooden spoons each. And it was the most beautiful music I've ever heard. Why couldn't you keep Oakley? I know that mom had gone to the rehab classes that she was ordered to go to. And shortly after she went to those rehab classes, she became pregnant and stayed clean. And I don't know if it's because she had stayed clean for so long or what kind of law happens but she was able to get Oakley and her siblings back I saw you take a big swallow like you had a little coal in your throat just then. From here, I could see you swallow at that last sentence. Why? It never gets easier to talk about this because my husband and I grieved the loss of Oakley. And then to find out that she was missing, it still hurts our hearts and it doesn't make sense to us.

And it never will make sense to us why we didn't get to have her with us permanently. What did they tell you when they told you they were taking Oakley away and giving her back to bio mom who had been just out of rehab? So it was really confusing at first because in the spring, we were asked by our social worker, Angela Freeze,

if we would be interested in taking the new baby when it was born. And my husband and I were like, yes, we would be interested in taking Oakley's younger sibling. And then the next month at the next health and safety visit, we were told, nevermind, like that's not an option anymore. And then it slowly kind of came to that, oh, she's going to be returned. And when my husband and I went to fight it with the Grace Harbor Department of Children, Youth and Families, we were told she's not your daughter. You need to let go of this. I bet that hit like a ton of bricks. Yeah. And I'm not a confrontational person. And I had my whole listing of like, you're going to give this child attachment disorder. She's barely spent any time

at their house and you want to return her in the next month. Why do you think that this is conducive to her or the parents? It seems like an asinine plan to me for somebody that has struggled with drugs to have a baby, get all their kids back at once and be able to cope and do okay? Like, doesn't that seem like a plan for failure at the kids expense? Joining me in addition to Jamie Jo Hiles, who loves Oakley with all of her heart. A renowned guest, psychiatrist, Emmy honored personality, Dr. Carol Lieberman, best-selling author of Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, Oh My. She is on a mission to help parents and teachers protect children. Dr. Carol Lieberman, thank you so much for being with us.

Can you explain something Jamie Jo Hiles just said? She referred to attachment disorder. What is that? Well, what that is, is when a child is being raised by parents who are very traumatic towards the child. In other words, where there's physical abuse or sexual abuse or neglect, some kind of problems that makes the child have a lot more trouble when they then are placed in another home. But that's the thing that I was noticing in these photographs, that clearly she did adopt to Jamie Jo, you know, did feel loved and did flourish. And so she would have not had attachment disorder. She would have

continued with them and felt that love. What happens when you disrupt that, Dr. Laberman? Well, it's very difficult because, you know, as if she were going to a loving home as well, it's still difficult being disrupted, especially at such a young age, but there might have been some possibility of still growing and things being okay. But going back to the place that she had to be taken out of, I mean, obviously it was a horrible situation that she wouldn't have been put in foster care to begin with. To Cold Case Investigative Research founder, forensic expert, and star of a hit news podcast, Zone 7.

Cheryl McCollum is joining us. Cheryl, I don't understand it. At this point, I don't try to understand it. I just accept that it's true. Why defects? And I reserve this for very few entities. May they rot in hell. Continue to put these defenseless children,

they take them out of the fire, then throw them back into the frying pan with bio parents that treat them like crap to start with. And then we're all surprised when the child goes missing. I'm not surprised. Why does that keep happening? It's like Groundhog Day over and over and over again. In this case, the foster mom emailed and emailed and called. Her husband emailed. They documented the injuries on Oakley and those were ignored. When that baby was given back to the biological parents, it is without reason that they would go 10 months without a social worker going to that home and visiting with Oakley, re-interviewing her, making sure she was safe. Straight back out to Jamie Jo Hiles joining us. This is Oakley's foster mom. Jamie Jo, how long did you have Oakley? We had her for a little over two and a half years.

During that time, did she have any visitation with the bio mom or dad? She had on and off weekly visits with both Jordan and Andrew. Sometimes it was just Jordan. Sometimes it was Andrew. Sometimes it was both of them, but she did see them pretty regularly. And how would she respond to that? Sometimes she'd come home and she'd be upset because Jordan or Andrew would be upset at the visit.

So she would come home and be upset. Sometimes when she had weekend visits, like right before she transitioned home, she told me that she was at their house for too long and that she would have liked to have come home sooner. Did you ever notice any injuries on Oakley's face or body? Yes. So one time she came home from a visit with scratch marks on her face and I documented them and I took a picture and I sent it to the social worker and asked what happened. And I did not really get any kind of response. She said that she was going to be out on vacation

and would address it later. So the little baby comes home covered in scratches and the social worker goes on vacation. Yeah. Did she explain how she got the scratches? We never pushed her, we asked her, but we also never wanted to give her an idea of like Jordan or Andrew, like would cause harm to her. So we never wanted to put that in her head. Just like the video earlier of my husband and Oakley talking, like she came back from a visit and started to say that violence happened. And I immediately got out my phone to record that because it was shocking that she was just talking about it as if it were normal. What was she saying about violence in that video with your husband? She was at an overnight weekend visit with Jordan and Andrew, and this was a month before

she transitioned home. And she said that she was watching Cocomelon on Andrew's phone and that Jordan took the phone from her and was upset that Andrew must have given her the phone. And then she began hitting Andrew. Violence is something she never would have seen in our home. So it was very unusual that she was talking about it. And you could tell she was nervous because she was stuttering as she was talking. That was not her normal dialect.

She never spoke like that. You could tell she was nervous because she was stuttering as she was talking. That was not her normal dialect. She never spoke like that. You could tell she was nervous. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Carol Lieberman is with us, a renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of Beverly Hills. Dr. Carol, let me tell you a quick story. When Lucy and John Dave were little and I would have bath time, each one would get their own bath time and I would read books to them and I'd be getting ready to sneak out after the bath so I could go to work at night. So I would read this one book called Caps for Sale, I think it was. And it would be about, I've got a point, a guy that sold caps and they were,

it was a children's book and they were stacked up in a big stack and a bunch of monkeys got the caps and ran off with them. And the salesperson, the guy, said, give me back those caps in the book. And had his fist like that. And so I would act it out like I just did with you. And I remember Lucy would go and just look at me

like when I said, give me back those caps. And then she would look at the book, at the picture of the man arguing, fighting, arguing with the monkeys up in the tree. And it was only later I realized she had never heard anybody threaten anybody. This was just a book.

And so I would try to turn the page and she'd reach it back and turn it back and just look at the page. And then she'd look at me like, what's happening? Because she had never seen anything like that. I mean, all we watched was PBS for Pete's sake, Charlie and Lola. And now I understand why that bothered her so much, the confrontation, Dr. Carol. Yes, so your point is that the fact that it wasn't bothering Oakley, that she was telling this story as if she was just saying, and then we went to the store and we got bananas, you know, that shows that this is what she was exposed to all the time,

a lot of domestic violence, and how her parents must have just treated it as if this was normal. They give the baby back and then a bizarre event. Listen. Andrew Carlson calls police fire dispatch to report a fire at the family home earlier in the day. He tells dispatch his daughter used a cigarette lighter and caught the couch on fire. Carlson says he doesn't need fire response, just wanted to report the fire. Jordan Bowers tells others Oakley started the fire and it took four hours for her and Carlson to extinguish the blaze. Fire investigators confirm a fire at the home, but say it appears to have started in the microwave, not Oakley using a lighter to start a fire. You know,

Dave Mack is joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. I worked really hard to develop an expertise in prosecuting arson, Dave Mack, as you and I have discussed when I was a prosecutor, because first you have to prove a crime even happened. Then you have to get to the bottom of how it happened and who did it. They're a technical type of prosecution and investigation. And when an arson expert tells me it started in the microwave, I'm telling you that's where it started. I don't know how it started, but that's where it started. It's really, Dave Mack, not that hard to determine where the fire started. Because just think about it, Dave Mack, at your house. If you threw gasoline on the floor in, let's just say, the den where your TV is, and then the rest of the house burned as well or was smoke damaged. You can see with the naked eye that the den is where the most concentrated burning has been.

That's where the most damage is. You can even see where accelerant can be poured onto the floor sometimes. You can smell it. So if they say it started in the microwave, they know that to be true, probably from the naked eye. But yet the parents blame Oakley. Oakley's just a baby. They're saying Oakley started the fire. But arson investigators say it started in the microwave. Right. From the earliest call to the fire, they said, oh, man, she lit it. Our daughter

was playing with a lighter and the couch caught on fire. That was their claim, blaming Oakley from the very beginning and then even said that with one of the other children who repeated the lie so jamie joe hiles when you heard there had been a fire and that oakley started it what did you think i'm 37 and i can barely use a lighter so that was alarming to me that suddenly this four-year-old has the grip strength to start a lighter um but secondly, one of my friends shared the GoFundMe that Jordan had started to get money to help them with the fire. And that was alarming to me.

So I immediately screenshot all the pictures of the damage of the house and I sent them to DCYF and I said, this is not right. This is not right. This is like something else is going on and you need to investigate it because this is not what happened. This wasn't because of Oakley. I didn't even get a response from Oakley social workers, not a single response. Joining me, an all-star panel. Let me go out to Jarrett Farentino, who's joining us along with foster mom, Jamie Jo Hiles, who actually took care of Oakley and really fought tooth and nail for her not to be returned to these, let me just say, no good bio parents.

Jarrett Farentino is host of Primetime Crime on YouTube, a former prosecutor in Pennsylvania at JarrettFarantino.com. Jarrett, let me understand, why is it that DFACS, Department of Family and Children's Services, CPS, Child Protective Services, anything but, works so hard to reunite the baby with the bio parents? The baby's already been taken away from them. Why do they want the baby back with the bio parents? You know, Nancy, that's a great question. The way those systems have been long set up is they say the best interests of a child is to be with their biological parents. If parents meet these thresholds, if a parent is in need of drug rehab, if a parent is bettering their life situation, is taking certain classes, the courts favor putting a child back in a situation like this. And unfortunately, it could have tragic consequences sometimes.

The desire, Jamie Jo Hiles, maybe you know more about it than I do. All I know is it's wrong. And I have railed against it for years, seemingly without effect. But I've seen one case after the next, after the next. Why does the system, D-Fact, CPS, put the priority on the bio parents who have already either neglected, abandoned, or mistreated their child? Why do they get what they want, not what the child wants? And I don't mean a child going, oh, I want to go to the candy store, or I want to go to Six Flags.

I don't mean that. I mean as to where they live. Does a child's voice mean nothing in the system? No, it doesn't. And what's unfortunate is Oakley even had a CASA, which is a court-appointed special advocate, and he is supposed to be the voice for Oakley and her siblings. And he only came out to meet her twice in the whole two and

a half years. And so I don't think he even had a thumb on how Oakley felt or anything. I think that he just kind of did what the court suggested and what the social workers suggested. But it's really unfair because I could tell Oakley she wanted to see her siblings and her biological parents on occasion, but she didn't want to go back there permanently. But I couldn't do anything about that. But she was forced to. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace where is oakley the tip line 360-533-8765 repeat 360-533-8765 first the bizarre fire that they blame on oakley and now this this. Oakley Carlson's six-year-old sibling goes to Principal Swift's home for a play date and sleepover. When Swift asks about Oakley, the sibling gets upset and says, quote, Oakley is no more. Swift presses and asks again about Oakley,

and the sibling tells her Oakley went to live with her foster parents that she lived with before. Concerned about what she is hearing, Principal Swift contacts the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Office saying she's concerned for Oakley's safety and requests a welfare check. So after the bizarre fire, then we have the Oakville Elementary principal, Jessica Swift, stopping by with a care package after this fire. Never sees Oakley. Where's Oakley? Then she goes back, never sees Oakley. And I'm going to circle back to Dr. Carol Lieberman about how very often we see one child of several picked out as a scapegoat, which I don't understand that. Tell me what happened. What happened is Principal Swift, actually, she knew something's going wrong.

So she orchestrates to have a sleepover with Oakley's older sister. She can't find out anything about Oakley in a positive way. So she calls police. Go check on her. I didn't see her. I've been there twice. Now I'm hearing something weird from her sister. Please go check on Oakley.

Now, by the time police go to check on Oakley, the family is not in their house where they had the fire. They've actually moved out to a hotel. And it's in that hotel. Wait, I mean, did you see the damage in the house? I guess they did move into a hotel. Well, hold on. So the principal, Swift, is so worried. She sets up a play date for a sleepover.

And this is with Oakley's six-year-old sister. The sibling gets upset and says, quote, Oakley is no more. And then the sibling says, Oakley went to live with her foster parents that she used to live with. Do I have that straight, Dave Mack? Absolutely. That's what the principal was working on, that type of knowledge. So Principal Swift is being aggressive, but within what she's supposed to be doing. She's looking after where is Oakley. So we go from this bizarre fire in the family home to Oakley not being present when the principal comes by with a care package to then the sibling telling the principal Oakley is no more. Those are very odd words coming from a child. So principal very

wisely calls for a welfare check. Listen to what happens. Due to the fire, Oakley Carlson's family is staying at a hotel when the Tumwater Police Department conducts a welfare check. Andrew Carlson tells police Oakley is with his parents, Oakley's grandparents, but he doesn't know his father's phone number and can't remember the address. Carlson's father tells police he hasn't seen Oakley for quite some time. Returning to the hotel, the officer's report claims Andrewlson doesn't seem surprised that oakley is not with his parents speaking to jordan bowers about her daughter oakley bowers becomes uncooperative and refuses to answer questions after the officers leave the hotel andrew carlson

calls police dispatch and reports oakley carlson missing jamie joe did you know at the time that all of this was happening what were were you told, if anything? I wasn't told anything until, so I received two phone calls when I was at school that day. One call was from the Grace Harbor County Sheriff's Office asking me if I'd seen Oakley. And the second call was from DCYF from Grace Harbor asking if I could take Oakley's younger brother and Oakley when they found her. So that's all I was told. I still have never been told by DCYF that Oakley is missing to the capacity that she is. So you take care of her.

You take her in. I'm looking at all those pictures. You're the one that bought that baby blanket right there. You're the one that bought those clothes. You're the one that put the smile on her face and took care of her. The bio parents did nothing, nothing except neglect and mistreat her. And now suddenly you're hearing the siblings say, oh, she went back.

She went back to live with the foster mom. When you know darn well she's not there. She hasn't come back to you. And that's why they came and called you. Why they came to see you. Because the sibling was told she was with you. And that's why they came and called you, why they came to see you, because the sibling was told she was with you. What went through your mind when they called you looking for Oakley? My first thought was, oh my goodness, like, where is she? Is she okay? And then when they said,

can you take her little brother and can you take Oakley? I thought, oh my gosh, we're going to get, we're going to get our girl back. And so it was coincidentally her birthday. And immediately I thought I have to run to Party City to plan a birthday party for for when she shows up at my house. I had no idea for at least 24 hours that it was as bad as it is. No idea. I checked my phone all night that night waiting for a phone call that Oakley was going to be dropped off at my house. So when they called you looking for Oakley, you get excited and they say, can you can you take Oakley when we find her? That had to ring a red bell of alarm in your head when we find her. And can you take the little brother, the newborn?

And you're like, I'm going to get her and a sibling. And your thought was, I got to go to Party City right now because it's her birthday and we're going to have a party. That's what was going through your mind? Yes. I immediately told my husband and my father and I said, we need to get the nursery ready for her younger sibling. And we have a guest bedroom, which is where Oakley would stay. And we'd figure it out later to make it more like not so non-kid-like. And I thought, okay, we have to make her birthday special

because obviously if she is not at home or if she is being placed back into foster care, she's had a really bad birthday already. So let's try to do something to make the day at least good for her fifth birthday. And then this, listen. Investigators question Oakley's nine-year-old brother, who says Jordan Bowers would put Oakley in the closet, possibly under the stairwell, and has witnessed Jordan beat Oakley with a belt and has been worried about her starving.

During a forensic interview with a child advocate, Oakley's six-year-old sister said her mother, Jordan, had told her to not talk about Oakley. She had gone out into the woods, she said, and had been eaten by wolves. To Jamie Jo Hiles, when did you learn, the bio mom told the other sisters and brothers, that Oakley went out in the woods and was eaten by wolves. So I think it was on December 9th the city of Oakville held a really beautiful candlelight vigil for Oakley and a lot of us walked and just kind of thought about Oakley and had hope for Oakley and it was as soon as I came home from that, I saw the police reports and the news reports that this is what Jordan had been telling Oakley's siblings. Don't talk about her.

She's been eaten by wolves, that there was abuse that happened, that she was starved. And the feeling of knowing that that's what she endured is, I mean, it just kills you. You know, Jamie Jo, I torture myself the same way. I have to stop myself because I think back on when my fiance was murdered and I wonder what happened.

What did he endure? Did he understand what was happening to him? Did he know he was dying? It gets me nowhere what goes through your mind when you heard this story that mom is telling people the children that oakley went in the woods and was eaten by wolves what went through your mind do you remember that moment? Well, first of all, I thought that was the stupidest thing that she could say,

because we don't have wolves around here. But then I also thought how incredulous of Jordan to sit there and tell her children, you better watch out. You better not talk about this, because this is what happened to her. And it's going to like happen to you too, if you're not good. Like that's terrifying to, as a little kid, be like, this happened to my siblings, so I better be on my best behavior. And it just makes me feel like I want to go to DCYF and be like, I told you so. I told you that this was a major concern. And I felt like nobody listened to me. And now here now here we are well did it dawn on you that that story was impossible she wasn't eaten by wolves and that mommy is trying to come up with an explanation about why Oakley is gone forever yeah that would mean like a ton of bricks

and it did and it's just so it's so infuriating to know that that's the kind of, that's the story that her siblings are, are thinking, okay, like, you know, Oakley's gone. That this is, this is what happened to her. Like, that's so frustrating. And as a, as a foster parent, and I don't even like to call myself her foster mom. I was her mom nobody wants to think of their kid being eaten by wolves and she just jordan just okay first of all she wasn't eaten by wolves she wasn't eating my wolves we don't have to think about that happening because that didn't happen which leads me to the conclusion something else horrible did happen. And what's also very

infuriating, Jamie Jo, is that there were so many red flags that were waving in front of everybody right under their nose. For instance, listen. Oakley's grandmother tells investigators the last time she saw her granddaughter, quote, Oakley didn't look well. Oakley had dark circles under her eyes, pale skin, and she had scratches or sores on her face. Now, the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Office has renewed its call for information regarding the girl's disappearance. Oakley Carlson is often referred to now as the missing girl who was kept in a cell under the stairs. Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. What did I hear about a cell under the stairs. Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. What did I hear

about a cell under the stairs? You mean like Harry Potter? It was a place that the children described like a cell under the under the stairs. It was an obvious area where they would put her where she was in the dark, locked in, couldn't get out. And they all knew it. Dr. Carol Lieberman with us, renowned psychiatrist. Why do we see over and over one child out of the whole family targeted for abuse? What it might have been is the fact that she is so adorable, and maybe that got her more attention, like from the father or from people who would, you know, come to see the family, and the mother couldn't deal with that, that she didn't want Oakley stealing attention that she wanted for herself.

You know, I know that sounds far-fetched, but Dr. Lieberman is absolutely correct. That exact scenario has happened. Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Research Institute founder and director. Cheryl, we've seen it a hundred times, 500 times where one child is targeted and they are abused horribly. And let's talk about the mom's statement about the wolves, Nancy, to your point.

When she accepts, number one, that her child is dead, she accepts that her child is dead in the most violent, horrific manner that you could imagine. And then she tells the other children about it so that, hey, everybody knows there's no chance she's ever coming home. And then they start a GoFundMe where they talk about, hey, we escaped with our three children. They had four. You are so right. They said we escaped with our three children and they had four. You are so right. They said we escaped with our three children and they had four. Jamie Jo Hiles, what do you make of what Cheryl has just pointed out? When we saw the GoFundMe and we saw that statement, we thought that that was a really interesting statement. That they have four kids, but why does it say three?

And that was something I also mentioned to DCYF in my email to them. This is not right. Something's wrong. It just went ignored. Jamie Jo, what have you learned about Oakley being kept in a cell under the stairs in the dark. Horrible things. She was put into the cell all the time. It's like a little cabinet because I've seen pictures of it. And sometimes they would push the couch in front of the cabinet and she would be on the door until she passed out from exhaustion. Like that was just like her holding place and everybody knew about it.

Jamie Jo, do you think there is any chance Oakley is still alive? In my heart, I hope I see her again alive. I always will be a little hopeful, but when you hear about the abuse that she endured, the starvation or the drug use that the parents had, it's hard for me to think that she's alive. But I hope I get to see her again. I hope she's alive. Have you ever, Jamie Jo Hiles, confronted DFACS about what they did? I have written Governor Inslee multiple times asking for an outside investigation. I have, you know, as soon as this kind of started to come to light and be in the media, Washington DCYF called me and was like, hey, just a reminder that this is a private

situation and don't talk about it. And I was like, no, like her case is closed. So I'm going to talk about it because you guys messed up. And I've never gotten anything. Patrick Dowd, the ombudsman for the Department of Children, Youth and Family, they say there was nothing wrong done in her case. And we know that that's not true. So they will never take accountability. He actually said we did nothing wrong. They handed the baby back, snatched out of your arms and gave it back to two no good

parents who all they ever did was sleep together and have a baby. That's it. And then spend the rest of their time mistreating this baby girl. And if they don't like what I'm saying, they're more than welcome to join us. We've extended an invitation. They didn't join. I wonder why. They still, DFAC still says they did nothing wrong.

Yes, correct. And it's so, it's laughable because I can say, well, what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And they say, well, we followed all the rules. We followed all the laws. Okay. Well, why didn't, if I'm a mandated reporter by the state, why didn't you check in on my claims of abuse? I contacted twice. Why didn't you check in on them? That should have been a red flag right there. Did you ever hear back from Governor Jay Inslee? He won't even say her name. He's never said her name. He says, oh, we're really sorry to hear about this, but he's never said Oakley Carlson. Let your voice be heard. The number for Governor Jay Inslee in Washington is 360-902-4111.

Repeat, Governor Jay Inslee. You know what? Grow a spine. Do something. Just anything. Governor Jay Inslee. Repeat, 360-902-4111. I don't care if you have to blow the whole office up.

This girl is very likely dead thanks to defects putting her back in harm's way with two drug addled parents. She had a slim chance at happiness and they snatched her away from that. Living in a dark cell under the stairs, barricaded in by a sofa, she would scream to get out until she passed out from exhaustion? Governor Inslee, how can you stand

by and do nothing? Are you like Pontius Pilate? You just wash your hands and it's all over and you can turn away and just go back to what you were doing? It's not that easy. Tip line. If you know or think you know anything about Oakley

360-533-8765 repeat 360-533-8765 there is a $100,000 reward for information Jamie Jo thank you for being with us reward for information. Jamie Jo, thank you for being with us. I fear deeply that when you do see Oakley again,

you will only meet in heaven. Thank you. I fear that too. We stop now to remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Ned Byrd, Wake County Sheriff, North Carolina. A U.S. Air Force vet, Deputy Sheriff Byrd, survived by his beloved canine partner, Sasha, and nephews, Tyler, Logan, Gavin, Kobe. An American hero, Deputy Sheriff Ned Byrd. End of watch. Thank you to all of our guests, but especially to Oakley's real mom,

Jamie Jo Hiles. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.