Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - High school football star, Ahmaud Arbery, unarmed, shot dead: Shooter claims citizens arrest

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

It's been more than two months since Ahmaud Arbery was gunned down as he jogged through a Brunswick neighborhood. Two armed residents chased the former football star saying they thought he was a robbery suspect, claiming citizen's arrest. Arbery was not armed. As he was confronted by the residents a struggle ensued and Arbery was shot in the abdomen. Family members want to know why no one has been arrested. The prosecutor says he'll let a grand jury decide.Joining Nancy Grace today: Kirk Nurmi - Jodi Arias former Attorney, Author "Trapped with Ms Arias"  Psych Dr Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga Jeff Cortese - Former FBI Special Agent,  Dr Katherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiners office, Buffalo, New York. Levi Page - Investigative reporter Crime Online  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. At a time when we are all pulling together to fight coronavirus, COVID-19, I have something for you. An all free e-chapter on coronavirus crimes and how to fight them. Don't be a coronavirus crime victim from door-to-door sales of fake

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Hit the link and download it for free. Arm yourself against criminals and scam artists, cons, that will not only take advantage of you, but take advantage of you, your parents, your grandparents, the people you love at a time when we are all fighting the virus. I hope you go to CrimeOnline.com and download this. It's been highly researched and presented for you for free. Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. How does a young guy jogging through a residential neighborhood end up being pursued and gunned down? Dead.

Or is that what happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's kick it off. Take a listen to this. This is the locations operator, Smith. Yeah, we've got a few of those. Okay.

There's a guy in the house right now. It's a House under construction. Okay, do you have your address or the other that house is addressed? Uh, right at 2 19 or 2 20 to drive. And you said someone's breaking into it right now. No, it's all open. It's under construction and he's running right now. There he goes right now. Okay, what is he doing? He's running down the street. Okay. Okay, that's fine. I'll get them out there. I just need to know what he was doing wrong.

Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be stuff on it and he's been caught on the camera a bunch of fortnight. Kind of an ongoing thing out here. The man that's building the house, he's got heart issues. I think he's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? A white t-shirt.

Black guy, white t-shirt. And he's done back runs. He's done runs back to the neighborhood. Okay, and... Up front yard. What happened? and he's done run backwards in that room. Okay. What happened? Was the guy breaking into a home? Was he just jogging? Again, thank you for being with us.

This is a case that is tearing apart a community estate and taking the center stage in national news. Joining me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again, Kirk Nermy, former trial lawyer for convicted killer Jody Arias and author of Trapped with Ms. Arias on Amazon. Renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold. And boy, do we need a drink. Jeff Cortese, former special agent, Dr. Angela Arnold. And boy, do we need a drink. Jeff Cortese, former special agent,

FBI, Dr. Catherine Maloney, deputy chief medical examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office in Buffalo. But first, to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. Now, this happened in the small town of Brunswick, Georgia. Residential area. Brunswick, compared to other big cities like L.A., New York, Atlanta, is small, but there's a good bit of business there. It's near the Georgia coast. This was a really nice residential community. There was construction going on in the community. And I want

to understand there are two sides to this story. One side is that the guy gunned down, Ahmaud Arbery, was breaking into a home under construction. So was it just a dig site? How advanced was the construction? Did he just walk around looking to see what was happening? Is he the person that has been spotted in the past, caught on camera, breaking into residential homes where people are home, where people live there? Or was he just jogging in the neighborhood and gets gunned down? Or is it somewhere in between? Straight out to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. I hear the 911 call. That was before the shooting.

What do you know now, Levi Page? What do we know about the construction site itself? Well, we know that this was a home in the Centilla Shores neighborhood of Brunswick, Georgia. It's February 23rd in the afternoon, and there's this home that's under construction that they say the homeowner couldn't finish construction. So it was just kind of sitting there. And Ahmaud Arbery, he's 25 years old, and he's in this neighborhood and he's in hold on hold on wait wait right there so the homeowner could not finish it so it was let's see when you first hear under construction you think that there are people out there working on it and hammering and sawing. But this sounds more like a home that was under construction that everything had halted.

Okay, let me rephrase my question, Levi Page. Was it just the bare bones? Was it a home that was being remodeled? I mean, were there walls? Was there a ceiling? What do we know about the scene? I don't think it was, it was basically bare bones. It was not a fully developed home. I'm just wondering if there were walls to it, Jackie. Let's see if we can pull up another image.

Okay, guys, before we go any further, take a listen to more of that 911 call. Let's see what we can learn. 911, what's the address of your emergency? I'm out here at Satilla Shores. There's a black male running down the street. Satilla where where where at Satilla Shores? I don't know what sweet world. Stop right there. Sir hello sir., where you at? Hello? Hello? Okay, there you hear the caller to 911 say we're in Satilla Shores. You hear there's a black male running down the street, doesn't know exact address. And you can hear him calling out, stop right there. Hold on just a moment. To Kirk Nermy, former lawyer for Jody Arias and author, we've all seen Andy Mayberry, right? Where people are always making citizen's arrests. But how often does that really happen?

If there is a burglary, let's just say there's a burglary, and the burglar starts running Kirk Nermy, it's my understanding that for a burglary, cops are not to shoot the person. Clarify citizen's arrest and deadly force. Kirk. Nancy, this isn't maybe our RFD by far. This is the kind of

execution that really stains the soul of the nation. These men, we don't even know that there's a burglary. I hate to even presuppose that. From what Levi's told us and everything I've read. That why i said let's assume what we're hearing on the 911 call is correct all right this person was in a home construction site i mean if there are not walls there's i don't know that that would be considered entering.

Let's just assume he was on the side. And then he leaves. But even if it is a burglary, even if. You're right. I don't believe even police are justified in using deadly force, shooting somebody for a burglary. No, not at all. Not at all.

Even if they are running away, as was the case of this jogger, this was not any kind of action that the police would be justified in taking. So this claim of citizen's arrest is certainly lost on me as it comes to the shooting of this man. Nancy. Who's jumping in? Who is it? This is Levi, and I just want to point out that according to the Brunswick News, Nancy,

that he was, one of the person that called 911, the person that lived in the area, said that he was walking inside an open home that was under construction for some time. So, open home. Because, okay, Jackie's holding up a sign that it was a shell. I've got to tell you, wrong or right, when I was growing up in a very rural area and somebody would finally start building a home, we would walk in and look around at the construction site and go, wow, this is going to be pretty.

I bet this is the bedroom and this is the bathroom. I don't know that that's considered a burglary. I actually think technically it would be. But even if that's true, police themselves are not justified under the law in gunning somebody down that's running away from a non-violent crime. Guys, we are talking about a case that is tearing not only a community, a state, but a country apart. Ahmaud Arbery, just 25 years old, gunned down by two people that say they see him inappropriately, illegally on a construction site. And the guy takes off running. They also tell 911, hey,

this guy's been spotted on video before breaking in. Is that true? Don't know. But even if it was, not saying it is, but even if it was, does that justify deadly force a citizen's arrest? Take a listen to this. Gregory McMichael and his neighbors in Satilla Shores in Brunswick, Georgia, have seen a number of homes under construction robbed recently. One of those homes has surveillance cameras and a man has been recorded prowling the properties late at night. It's a situation that McMichael has experience with. He has an extensive law enforcement background as an investigator for multiple agencies in the area. When he sees an unknown man on one of the properties

on a Sunday afternoon when no construction is taking place, he calls 911 to report what he believes could be a robbery. When the person he suspects is a burglar takes off running, Gregory McMichael, armed with a pistol, tells his 34-year-old son Travis to grab a shotgun. The two men head out the door, talking to a 911 operator as they try to catch the person he believes could be responsible for break-ins in their quiet neighborhood. You're hearing Dave Mack, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com. I want to open up what's happening to the panel with me, Kirk Nermy, Dr. Angela Arnold, Jeff Cortese,

Dr. Catherine Maloney, and Levi Page. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent. Jump in, Jeff. Well, Nancy, I'm really just not sure what the plan was. You know, as we just heard, this was a former investigator. He's supposed to understand how these things work. Even if everything he says about Arbery is true, it was reckless from the onset, right out of the gate.

Reckless is one thing, but there's such a thing as reckless homicide, and it may be reckless from one point of the view, but let's just say that that was his home that was being built, and he was wandering around looking at the construction. And then suddenly two guys with weapons start chasing him. I'd run too. Now, these two guys probably know Gregory McMichael and Travis McMichael the father and the son probably know whose home that is that's

being built so they know that Ahmaud Arbery is not the homeowner that said it still doesn't explain a way a shooting to you Levi page pick it up right there so Nancy we know that 25 year old all that Aubrey caught the attention of Greg McMichael he worked for decades as an investigator for the Brunswick Judicial Circuit District Attorney's Office and he was outside his son's home. His son is Travis McMichael, and he spotted Ahmed Arbery, and he called 911 at 1 0 8 p.m., and he claimed that Arbery stopped at the property of a home under construction like we've been talking about. He said he matched the description of someone that he'd seen in the neighborhood before who put their hands down their pants,

a gesture that he suspected was because he had a gun. And McMichael became suspicious. He says, I think this is the person I've seen before acting suspicious. So he told his son, come on, we're going to go get him. They got in a truck that Travis McMichael, 34 years old, was driving. And his father, Greg McMichael, was in the back of the truck, in the bed of the truck. They chased him down. And Travis McMichael got out of the truck, got into a fight with 24-year-old Ahmed Arbery, and shot him and killed him. Guys, take a listen to our friends at WTLV, WJXX News. This is Troy Kless.

The Satilla Shores neighborhood is quiet. As a mother, I never worried about him jogging or just running because as long as he stayed within the streets, I mean, no one should bother him. I raised him as a yes ma'am, no ma'am type of guy. Arbery went jogging down Satilla Drive around 1 p.m. on Sunday. According to a police report, Greg McMichael spotted Arbery running down the street and thought he had been going into this home, which at the time did not have doors or windows. And you said someone's breaking into it right now?

No, it's all open it's under construction and he's running right now there he goes right now okay what is he doing he's running down the street mcmichael stated he and his son travis mcmichael got guns and followed arbery down the street in their truck eventually stopping him travis got out of the truck with his gun and got into an altercation with Arbery. What we are learning now is the case of this young man, Ahmaud Arbery, being shot, is headed to a Georgia grand jury. I want to go back to what we were learning in the neighborhood. Kirk Nermy, one of the aggressors,

say that Arbery put his hands down his pants as if he had a gun. I don't know. When you're chasing someone under the law, that makes you the aggressor. Then when somebody takes out a gun and turns at you, that's because you're chasing them. But here, Arbery was unarmed. We also know that the two jump out of the truck and a fist fight starts they have described it as a violent fight how does that change your opinion jeff cortese or does it no it really doesn't uh you have uh individuals with guns uh presumably with no uniform on uh nothing to identify themselves, who try to stop somebody who is running down the street.

There are only one of a couple possible outcomes, and this, unfortunately, was one that this former investigator should have anticipated, which should have kept him at home. Back to you, Levi Page, what can you tell me about a 30-second video that has emerged? Yeah, so there's a 31-second video that was released to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and it is someone that is driving in a vehicle, and they're recording from their cell phone, presumably, and they are pulling up to the scene right before the shooting happens. And we see the 25-year-old, Ahmed Arbery, try to get away from the two men that were chasing him. And then we see a fight break out.

We hear one gunshot that apparently misses the 25-year-old and then another gunshot and he falls over dead. So, bottom line, the argument that there was a struggle for the gun and then the gun goes off, is that what is depicted in the video, Levi Page? Well, it is hard to say exactly, Nancy, because this is a person recording from their cell phone and we don't see everything because they pull up right before it happens. But we do see a struggle, Nancy. We do see 25-year-old Abed Arbery in a white t-shirt and shorts, swinging fists, looks like he's trying to get away away and we hear a gunshot and then another gunshot and then he falls over well to me when i hear you're fighting over the gun means that you're not just taking punches that you're hand to him or like wrestling trying to get the gun away Anyway.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, a video has emerged in the shooting death of a 25-year-old young man. Claims are he had been burglaring a home. Other claims are he was jogging in the neighborhood. Whatever that truth is, chasing someone down as a citizen and shooting them for a nonviolent felony is illegal even for a police officer to do, much less a citizen. Who's to say that I can't say I see Jackie Howard over here and she starts running and that makes me suspicious so I go shoot her down? No. Absolutely not. A video has emerged, a 36 second video. It was at a radio station website and has then been taken off the website.

Was apparently taken by a person in a vehicle that pulls up behind the pickup truck that was stopped on the road. That is the report. The recording has sound, but the yelling in the recording is largely, you can't understand it. What we know is that one man is in the bed of the pickup, and I assume that is 64-year-old Gregory McMichael. The other is standing near the driver's side door. A man in a T-shirt, who we now know to be Ahmaud Arbery, just 25 years old, approaches, goes around the pickup on the right side, and just as he's passing the front of the vehicle, suddenly a fight breaks out with the man with a shotgun. A shot goes off, the two disappear,

the man standing in the back of the truck takes out a handgun, but doesn't fire. A second shot is then heard as the fighting had been going on off screen. That's what we know right now. Joining me, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, Atlanta. Dr. Arnold, if you see someone breaking in your home, that instills fear. They are the aggressor and people can fire. But when you are chasing somebody down the road that you think may have burgled somebody else's home and nobody's there, it's not even a real home yet, it's a construction site. How can that be justified as reasonable fear of serious bodily harm? It can't be. Also, Nancy, they left their homes.

The two men left their house but got their guns before they left their home. Who does that in the middle of the day on a Sunday? They had been, to me, it sounds like they had been thinking about this. They were waiting for him and they were so, they were so ready to go get this guy because they had seen him on the, on the tapes and all of this other kind of stuff. What did the guy steal? He didn't, did he even have anything in his hands? Like you said, we used to do that all the time. We used to go through houses all the time that were being built. It was just not fun today. And no harm intended whatsoever.

I want you to take a listen now to CBS News correspondent Omar Villafranca. Ahmad is no longer with us, and he's not with us because two men followed him while he was jogging and killed him. Ahmad Arbery was shot and killed in Brunswick, Georgia. We spoke to his mother, Wanda Jones. What do you think should have already happened to these men? An arrest should have been made already. According to neighbors, there had been break-ins in the area. Arbery was allegedly spotted at a home that was under construction before he began to run. 911 calls came in moments later. And you said someone's breaking into it right now?

No, it's all open. It's under construction and he's running right now. There he goes right now. Okay, what is he doing? He's running down the street. According to a police report, Gregory McMichael told police he saw Arbery run by and recognized him from the break-ins. According to the report, McMichael and his 34-year-old son Travis grabbed a shotgun and a pistol and got into their truck to go after Arbery. To Dr. Catherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office, Buffalo, New York, what do we know about 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery's injuries? Well, it looks like he suffered a close-range shotgun wound to his abdomen. So that would have resulted in probably rapid and severe blood loss,

where he probably would have been conscious for some time and could have potentially moved, so he could have run. Probably he would have been able to talk, things like that. But with the blood loss and just the shock from the pain, moved, so he could have run. Probably he would have been able to talk, things like that, but with the blood loss and just the shock from the pain, he probably wouldn't have gotten very far and then would have kind of collapsed and gone into shock. We know that he, Aubrey, fell face down, that he was rolled over by one of the McMichaels to see if he had a gun and he did not. Question to you, I know that one of the weapons used was a.357 Magnum. The other one was a shotgun. Levi Page, do we know which

weapon was used to actually shoot Aubrey? The shotgun or the.357? The shotgun that Travis McMichael had. To Dr. Catherine Maloney, what would being shot with a shotgun at close range do to the human body? Well, depending on the type of ammunition, if it was, you know, it could be like a slug, which would be a single large bullet, versus if it was multiple smaller bullets or pellets, they would have entered the body and then basically would have destroyed the tissue that they hit. So after going through the skin in the abdomen, most likely he would have suffered injuries to his intestines, his liver, possibly his stomach or spleen. He would have probably pretty rapidly gone into shock and there would have been a lot

of blood loss. When you go into shock, what effect does that have on what you feel and what you can perceive happening around you? Well, I imagine right after he was shot, he probably would have been in a great deal of pain and then probably panic would have set in as he realized he had been shot and experienced the pain of being shot and realized that he was losing blood rapidly before he subsequently lost consciousness. To Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, how many times was he actually shot? I know there were two gun discharges, but how many times was he shot? It appears that he was shot once, that one miss, and that he was shot in the abdomen. Yeah. Was he shot from the front to the back or the back to the front? Front to the back.

Front to the back. Guys, take a listen to CBS News correspondent Omar Villafranca. Gregory McMichael told investigators Arbery violently attacked Travis and the two fought over the shotgun before Travis shot twice and killed him. The prosecutor who previously had the case says Travis acted out of self-defense and the pursuers acted within the scope of Georgia's citizen's arrest statute. It essentially deputizes all citizens to go out and perform police functions. They did not do that properly. Lee Merritt, an attorney for Arbery's family, says he believes there have not been any indictments because Gregory McMichael is a former investigator for the Brunswick District Attorney's Office.

That's why the case was transferred to the Ware County District Attorney. There's more than enough evidence for a case for murder. What do you think those men should have done? They should have waited until the authorities arrived. They had already made a call to 911. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the facts are murky. But we do know this.

In the worst case scenario for Ahmaud Arbery, if he was on a construction site, realized he got spotted, maybe or maybe didn't commit burglaries in the past, takes off running, even if all that is true the law does not justify under any citizens arrest statute that you grab your gun and chase somebody down and inflict mortal deadly force on that person when you're not yourself being pursued That is clearly what happened here, even in the worst case scenario for this young man. Guys, a case is tearing our country apart. If you have any information on this case at all, the tip line is 912-264-1333. 912-264-1333. And, Kurt and Ermi, listeners or viewers may be wondering why I keep taking the worst case for Aubrey side.

The reason is, even under that case, this type of deadly force is not justified. It's just not justified at all. Agree or disagree? I don't know. You're absolutely right. That's why I used the word execution earlier. You know, like the doctor said, these guys might have planned it. They were ready to go. And with the guy in the back of the truck, it looked like they were going hunting. And I think the doctor was. Well, I don't think that there's any way that they could have known that at one o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday, they were going to see a burglar. Now, I do know the whole neighborhood was very frustrated over many, many

break-ins. There had been a lot of burglaries in the area, and they were angry, and they were frustrated, and the burglar couldn't be stopped. But I don't think there's any way they're lying at wait at one o'clock in the afternoon thinking they'll see a burglar in broad daylight. However, they mobilized very quickly and chased the guy in their pickup truck. Take a listen now to Tariq Minor, News 4 WJXT. Police say McMichael then armed himself with his.357 handgun. He and his son followed Arbery, who was running for two blocks before the report states McMichael shouted, stop, stop, we want to talk to you. They pulled up next to Arbery and police say the former investigator's son exited the truck with a shotgun. McMichael told police Arbery then

violently attacked his son and the two men started fighting over the shotgun. Travis McMichael fired two shots, killing Arbery at the spot of this memorial. Police say the McMichaels rolled Arbery over to see if he had a weapon, and no weapon was found. Arbery's former football coach suspects it was a case of mistaken identity. People are known for jogging that area all the time, and people know my jogs the area. Like, he would stop, and sometimes he was in the middle of his workout, and he would just play like basketball with the younger kids. He would sit right out in the street and he'll just play like basketball with the younger kids. He'll sit right out there in the street and just kind of shoot hoops with the kids

and then, you know, at the end of the game, he'll just go back to jogging. That's the kind of person he was. Everybody knew him for exercise. This case is headed to a grand jury. But what has taken so long? Listen again to Tariq Minor. Well, this shooting happened in Glynn County back on February the 23rd before the coronavirus pandemic.

But the case was transferred to Ware County because of the shooter's family's ties to local law enforcement. The case was then transferred again to the Hinesville District Attorney's Office for the very same reason. Arbery's family says the use of deadly force just wasn't necessary, and they want the shooter and his father held accountable. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR THE VERY SAME REASON. ARBORY'S FAMILY SAYS THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE JUST WASN'T NECESSARY AND THEY WANT THE SHOOTER AND HIS FATHER HELD ACCOUNTABLE. I'M OUT HERE AT CITILLA SHORES, THERE'S A BLACK MALE RUNNING DOWN THE STREET. CITILLA WHERE AT CITILLA SHORES? I DON'T KNOW WHAT CREATURE WE'RE ALL IN. THAT'S THE VOICE OF FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATOR GREG MCMICHAEL McMichael, suspecting 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery was burglarizing houses under construction

at 108 p.m. in this Brunswick neighborhood. According to the police report, McMichael called for his son Travis, who grabbed his shotgun because they didn't know if the male was armed or not. I just need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be? He's been caught on camera a bunch before tonight. Okay, how do we know that's the person caught on camera? Have these two been watching?

Right now, I'm trying to understand the delay in any formal charges or at least a grand jury investigation. Now, Kirk Nermy, former defense attorney for Jody Arias, author of Trapped with Ms. Arias, in my jurisdiction, which had a very, very heavy crime saturation, a grand jury was held twice a week, every week, rain or shine. In fact, we had lawyers I presented to the grand jury when I first started. We had lawyers dedicate.

That's all they did was present to grand jury twice a week. They would hear between 150 and 300 cases a day. Then those indictments or no bills would be fed to the clerk's office and assigned to courtrooms randomly by number. One courtroom might get 10 shopliftings. One courtroom might get 10 murders. But they were assigned randomly by number. One courtroom might get 10 shopliftings, one courtroom might get 10 murders, but they were signed randomly by number to courtrooms. Long story short, twice a week, like clockwork. So what is the holdup with not necessarily a grand jury indictment,

but a grand jury investigation that most likely would lead to an indictment? What's the holdup, Nermy? Well, I think from the looks of it, by the time all these conflicts got resolved and the authorities were ready to prosecute the grand jury- You mean all the people recusing themselves, that conflict? That conflict due to his ties with law enforcement. Now, Georgia has suspended the grand juries, and that is the reason for, cited anyway, for the lack of indictment. And unfortunately, it appears the lack of arrest as well. Well, you're absolutely correct. The grand juries have been suspended until June 13 at the earliest. The reality is a grand jury is made up from anywhere between 16 to 20 people to 43,

44 people. And they are pulled from the voter pool and residence. So that's how you get a grand jury. A grand jury is usually in session for about three to four months. And they come, as I told you, once or twice a week. That's in big jurisdictions. So this grand jury in a much smaller area may only meet, let's just say, once every other week or once a month. But long story short, people want to see movement in the case. They want to know the case is being investigated because, Dr. Angela Arnold, we're just hypothesizing. We are speculating about what we think happened. Although we've got a video, I'm looking right at it. You can see it

at crimeonline.com. I don't think the video lies. So I've got a pretty good idea. Plus the two, the father, son, McMichaels have given statements publicly about what happened. So I've got a pretty good idea. So people get concerned when they don't see the wheels of justice turning, and I don't blame them. As they should. It's very scary, isn't it, that you could go outside and there's so many questions about this, but you could go outside and do something that somebody doesn't like and somebody can shoot you and get away with it.

And one question I had been asking Levi was, was he dressed as a jogger? Ahmaud Arbery, he's 25 years old. I'm looking right at him. He's got on a white T-shirt and shorts and tennis shoes. And Nancy, a lot of people are wondering, you know, if he was going to rob anywhere, wouldn't he have a duffel bag, something to store items in? I mean, what's he going to take from a house that's under construction? Plywood? And there was no car

for him to get away from the robbery scene from. I mean, he was a jogger and he was very athletic. He was a high school football star. So it would make sense that he would be out there working. He was a star. He played in the all-star football games, 2012. You're right. What was there to steal? Even if he did steal it, what would he do with it? He's got on a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. What's he going to do? Stick it down his pants? Maybe. I don't know. But my point is, again, even if that's true, and I'm not saying it is, that still does not justify deadly force by a citizen on someone running away

to Dr. Catherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Erie County ME's office in Buffalo. He bled out lying on the ground in his neighborhood. One minute, everything's fine. The next minute, he's bleeding out. 25 years old. What does that mean to you when you hear a layperson like these witnesses say he bled out? Well, to me, that means that he lost so much of his

blood that he basically didn't have enough to sustain his vital organs so he couldn't transport enough oxygen to his brain and his heart and other and his other tissues to keep himself alive because he didn't have enough blood left to do that a 25 year old dead we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.