Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - High Velocity Spatter Place Lawyer Alex Murdaugh At Grisly Murder?

Episode Date: April 28, 2022

High-velocity spatter found on a shirt worn by disgraced attorney Alex Murdaugh may show he was present at the time his wife and son were murdered.   FITSNews is reporting their inside sources are saying that multiple forensics experts, including one at an out-of-state lab,  confirm the preliminary analysis of a significant amount of high-velocity spatter from at least one of their bodies. Alex Murdaugh has since been charged with multiple financial crimes and faces numerous civil lawsuits, since Maggie and Paul Murdaugh were found dead. He's even been named a person of interest, but not a suspect, so far.  Sources close to the investigation told FITSNews that multiple shots from a high-powered rifle killed Maggie Murdaugh, including one that went through her back and another into the back of her head as she was face down on the ground. Paul Murdaugh’s death certificate said the he had two shotgun wounds: one to the head and the other to the chest. At least one of the guns used in the murders belonged to the Murdaugh family. Alex Murdaugh’s attorney has repeatedly said that his client’s whereabouts are “accounted for completely.”      Joining Nancy Grace Today: Susan E. Williams, South Carolina Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor (Summerville), swilliams-law.net, Instagram: @carolinaladylawyer, Twitter: @ATTYswilliams Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Bobby Chacon - 27 years former FBI Agent, BobbyChacon.com, Instagram/Twitter: @BobbyChaconFBI, Writer and Co-producer: Audible Original Series, "After the Fall" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Matt Harris - Morning Show Host of The Matt and Ramona Show on 107.9 WLNK (Charlotte, NC), Podcast Host: "The Murdaugh Family Murders: Impact of Influence" See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell in the Alec Murdoch investigation in South Carolina. Everything went quiet for a moment, even after his wife, Maggie, and his son end up dead on his estate, his hunting mansion. After he ends up with a bullet wound to the head, miraculously survives right now? New evidence. Blood spatter evidence. Does it directly link the drugged up lawyer Alex Murdoch

to the double murders of his wife and his own son? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. We're learning all this from a source, Fit News,

and I want to go straight out to Matt Harris. Matt, the morning show host of the Matt and Ramona Show, 107.9 WLNK podcast, The Murdoch Family Murders. Matt, what is happening? Well, according to Fitz News, they're the ones who reported this,

that there's forensic evidence on his clothing, and it could have only come from blood spatter. They are reporting that there's been multiple tests done, and it proves that Alec was at least near the bodies when, or one of the bodies, when they were shot and killed in June. Let's analyze what Matt Harris, joining us from WLNK, just said.

Blood spatter. There's a lot of different kind of blood spatter. There is, I drop, I drop a jar of ketchup in a glass and it spatters. Then there's what we call high velocity blood spatter. Completely different thing. Because high velocity blood spatter, you probably can't even see it with the naked eye. It's like a mist, but it hits, for instance,

in this case, his shirt in a different way than other spatter would hit. So let me understand. Matt Harris, I'm a morning show host. Matt Ramona, WLNK. You're attributing to Fit News the report that a shirt worn by Alex Murdoch, the drugged up lawyer who we now think embezzled literally millions of dollars from his clients. night his wife and son were murdered not only has high velocity blood spatter a significant amount of high velocity blood spatter is that what you're telling me that's what fitznews is saying the high

velocity impact spatter was specifically high velocity now we know that Alec touched the bodies, at least according to him, in the 911 call that night. So that would be on his shirt and pants maybe as well. But they're saying there is the high velocity impact spatter on that shirt, which puts them right in the proximity of either one or both the victims when they were shot. Yes. Straight out of Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, host of a hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart. Joe Scott, telling me a lot.

He's telling me not only was he about, within 36 inches of the bodies of the dead people, his wife and his son, but he was there when they got shot yeah he was and that's that's what's being at least implicated here or implied uh relative to this finding when you start to talk about high velocity uh blood spatter nancy for our listeners at home just think about this right you were when you mentioned that it's very fine, very difficult to see. If anybody has an aerosol hairspray

container at home, go to your mirror and see it's at one time very lightly. And it particulates. And that's generated from a high energy impact. And it's generally associated in most every single time I've seen it, is always associated with gunfire. That means that it has to reach a certain level of velocity to impact that body, to spray that blood out. If you're anywhere in proximity to that, and you mentioned about 36 inches, that's kind of the standard. It's going to literally blow out and mystify all over the place.

Now, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Not everybody in this studio, let's just talk about Jackie sitting right there going, what? What? He just ran over 36 inches. We standardize 36 inches. What do we mean by that? When you shoot, the spatter will travel about 36 inches. Past that, it starts to dissolve in the air or drop to the ground, which tells us, and this is after years and years and years of exhaustive experimenting we know that if you got blood spatter you are three feet or less

to the point of impact bullet to body yeah you're absolutely right blood unlike a bot unlike a bullet has horrible horrible aerodynamic qualities so a bullet can spin through the air and go for a long, long ways. But the way this liquid, very viscous, thick liquid substance, even when it's mystified like this, it doesn't hold together very well. And so after about 36 inches, it's lost its velocity, but it's still particulate like this.

In other words, it goes like this. Yep, you're absolutely right just like the hairspray i was referring to so that gives you an indication nancy that if this is true if what they're saying is true they would have had to have tested the shirt looked at it very carefully under you know like probably um alternative lighting sources like ultraviolet and that sort of thing to be able to pick this up it'll kind of luminous and they'll get a they'll get an idea of the distribution of this pattern as well. And maybe what are you saying? The distribution of the pattern?

Well, it'll give you an idea. Regular people talk. It will give you an idea, perhaps relative to his position to the bodies when this weapon was fired or whoever was wearing this shirt they have a shirt pants whatever the clothing is when they begin to examine it and also look at the concentration nancy keep in mind as you've said many many times before you always use the analogy and i love this of the water hose where you spray it, the tighter that grouping, the closer the individual is. So if it's tightly concentrated, that means that the proximity of the individual that's on the receiving end of this spatter, okay, and they're saying it's Alec,

that it's going to be very tightly concentrated the closer he is to the body. Further away, it'll be spread out. 36 inches is about an arm's length. That's what we're talking about, which makes perfect sense. You're holding the gun, you shoot. They're not saying, is it on the chest? Is it on the sleeve of the shirt?

We're talking about timing. When was he caught? He says he was at his dad's bedside in the hospital. Is he caught on video wearing the same shirt or a different shirt? And when can we identify he was wearing the so that the purported bloody shirt the night his wife and son were killed you know what before i go too too deep into blood spatter we're going to revisit i want you to

hear that very night now if this is true what News is reporting, what we are hearing from our friend Matt Harris, WLNK, if it's true, that means he was at the body at the time of the shooting. That particular blood spatter marking cannot be created in any other way. It's not a transfer where he reached out and hugged the bodies or touched the bodies. It's not a drop. For instance, in Travis Alexander, when blood, he was aspirating blood up from all the stabs in his chest. His lungs were filling up with blood. Travis Alexander goes to his bathroom mirror and looks at himself as he is dying and blood drips down from the mouth or the nose and we see drop marks. It's not an orb. It's a spatter. Big difference under a microscope. But wait a minute. If what Fit News is saying, if what Matt Harris is reporting is all correct, then Alex Murdoch

managed to call 911 and say this. Take a listen. ... ... ... ...

... ... ......... I think the police just passed us immediately. My wife and child just got badly. Okay, you said 4147 Moselle Road in Arlington? Sir? You said 4147 Moselle Road in Arlington? Yes, sir.

4147 Moselle Road. Stay on the line with me, okay? Yes, sir. Stay on the line with me, okay? Yes, sir. Stay on the line with me, okay? Conn, accounting communications. Collison, I have an Alex Murdoch on the line. Call us from 4147 Moselle Road. He's advising that his wife and child was shot. Okay, and sir, give me the address again. It's 4147 Moselle Road. I've been up to it now. It's bad. Okay. Okay, and are they breathing?

No, ma'am. Okay, and you said it's your wife and your son? My wife and my son. Are they in a vehicle? No, ma'am. They're on the ground out at my kennel. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm down in our own way in an emergency. This is Alex Murdock. It's 4147 Moselle Road. I think the police just passed us immediately. My wife and child just got badly. Okay, you said 4147 Moselle Road in Arlington?

Sir? You said 4147 Moselle Road in Arlington? Yes, sir. 4147 Moselle Road. Stay on the line with me, okay? Yes, sir. Stay on the line with me, okay? Conn, accounting communications. Colleton, I have an Alex Murdoch on the line. Call us from 4147 Moselle Road.

He's advising that his wife and child was shot. Okay, and sir, give me the address again. It's 4147 Moselle Road. I've been up to it now. It's bad. Okay. Okay, and are they breathing? No, ma'am.

Okay, and you said it's your wife and your son? My wife and my son. Are they in a vehicle? No, ma'am. They're on the ground out at my kennel. You know what? There's just some things in life you just can't get enough of. And hearing Alex and Murdoch, if Fit News is right, and I have no reason to believe they're not right, think about this guy making this 911 call when according to the blood and the blood doesn't lie,

his shirt is covered in high velocity blood spatter. Take a listen. Here he is again. He just can't talk enough, can he? Did you see anyone? Okay. Is he breathing at all?

No. No one. Is she? Okay. Did you see anyone? Okay, is he breathing at all? No, no one. Is she? Okay, do you see anything? Do you see anyone in the area? No, ma'am. No, ma'am. What color is your house on the outside? What color is your house on the outside?

It's white. You can't see it from the road. Okay, is it a house or a mobile home? It's a house. Okay, and what is your name? My name is Alec Murdoch. Okay, did you hear anything or did you come home and find them? No, ma'am. I've been gone. I just came back. Was anyone else supposed to be at your house? No, ma'am. Please hurry. We're getting somebody out there to you. Oh, Bobby Chacon, Bobby Chacon, Bobby Chacon. Nearly 30 years, former FBI agent at BobbyChacon.com. Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.

Oh, how I would love to be a fly on the wall and watch him make that 911 call. Did you hear all that blubbering and snotting and the the tremulous wails? Yeah, but he became suddenly very literate when he had to say that I just got back. I heard that. I even wrote that home. I've been gone. Yeah, he got the things that he needed to get out very clearly and very articulately. And so so he knew it was almost like a script. He knew what he had to say. He obviously knows those calls are recorded. We all do. And so he knew what he had to say.

And he walked. You listen to that call. It's almost like a walkthrough of, hey, I didn't do this. And so it's really interesting to hear that and to hear how he goes from this blubbering guy who's you can hear the snot coming out and you he can't even comport himself and then all of a sudden he's very clear when he has to make the points that he wants to make susan e williams joining me high profile south south carolina criminal defense attorney former prosecutor in somerville she is at s williams-law.net susan williams i'm sure you've had a lot of clients who want to get up and start crying and blubbering and snotting please tell them don't do it because it just makes it worse well we're

talking about someone who has just found his wife and son dead with blood spatter on his shirt well do we know for sure if it is blood? Fitz News is reporting. I have no firsthand knowledge and it has not been confirmed by any independent sources. But that we don't I don't know that we know for sure that it was blood. It was something bodily fluid, perhaps. On his shirt, what bodily fluid would that be? It'd be whatever type could be snot. It could be saliva. It could be snot. It could be saliva.

It could be who knows. But we don't have any statements from the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division. We don't have any statements from Alex Murdoch's lawyers. Alex Murdoch has not been, of course, charged with anything. So I just don't know for sure exactly what has been found. I like the way you did that, by the way, Susan E. Williams. Note to Jackie, whenever I'm charged with double murder, hire Susan Williams. Because, see, I asked her when your clients busted, stop the snotting and the crying.

And she immediately turned around to tell me that it's probably Fit News. They're the ones. They must be wrong. Okay, I like the way you did that. I give you all the credit, Susan Williams. But let's just get back to reality of what they're reporting. I'm going to read something.

Listen to this. Matt Harris joining me. Morning Show host, WLNK. Quote, Multiple sources have told fit that the, and they keep saying this over and over, high velocity impact spatter. And Joe Scott, put that in your head because I need for you to go over that for me.

Multiple sources, multiple sources have told this news outlet that the high velocity impact spatter has been independently analyzed and confirmed by multiple forensic experts, including by at least one out-of-state laboratory. Put that in your head too, Joe Scott, because I'm just wondering, did they send it to Quantico? Because if you're going to send it out-of-state, why go from South Carolina to Alabama or Georgia or North Carolina? If you're going to send it somewhere, make it count, man. Send it to the feds. I mean, that's what I'm just surmising.

Because South Carolina, I mean, South Carolina has their own crime lab, don't they, Matt Harris? Yes, yes, they do. Probably more than one. I mean, in Georgia, we have a major crime lab in Atlanta. But, I mean, I know South Carolina's got to have their own crime lab. Oh, they sure do.

I mean, they've been backed up a lot because of COVID and what other things are going on. But they have one for sure, if not multiple. So why would they send it next door to North Carolina or to Tennessee or to Georgia? They wouldn't. Right. Right. I mean, I think the feds have been roaming around down in that area for a while now. We know that.

And I think that also to avoid any influence by the Murdochs, thus my podcast, Impact of Influence. I love your podcast. Thank you. SLED wants to make sure, which is South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, to make sure there's no issues of influence by the Murdoch. So they are going to make sure or ask for the Fed's help, I would assume, and not just have one of the counties or state work down there because they don't want any impropriety acknowledged or thought about or rumored. So getting the Fs involved makes sense yeah and as a matter of fact that's what you name your podcast and at first i didn't quite get why you had such a long name for your podcast but now i do the murdoch family murders impact of influence

and i thought that meant just how far reaching the murdoch family influence was because their legal dynasty they've been the prosecutors and they've had a civil law firm which i think is an incredible conflict of interest because you're going to represent people that have been victims or perps in the cases that you're prosecuting i mean wow anyway that has lasted for decades and decades and decades. But in this case, the title of your podcast goes as well. Impact of influence. They are sending SLED, South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, is sending this evidence out, I think, to the feds, although that's not being reported. Right. Where there is no partiality one way or the other

and nobody's got an axe to grind so i i think that's why they did that and i want to also point out um that fit is reporting that this is just one piece of evidence of many pieces of evidence, that placed Murdoch at the scene at the time of the crime. Bobby Chacon, what could they be talking about? Other evidence? MAV system on his car, GPS

satellite on his phone, triangulation. On his phone, if he has a watch that tracks him, if he's got a fitness tracker, you know, there's a lot of different things to... Here's the problem. You may do all that Fitbit, phone, car, all the nav, all the triangulation, but you got to have the time of death yeah narrow down because you can prove he's there at 8 p.m but what if you can't prove the deaths occurred at 8 p.m what if the deaths occurred at 2 p.m that's a problem yeah i thought it was weird we've been saying from the beginning that it was odd to

us that they picked a very short period of time for the possible deaths because they they released that that alec made the call at 9 11 and they uh said the time of death was between 9 and 9 30. well that's according to the autopsy report of paul that's a very short window and you guys are better at the science things than me, but that seems like that's unusual to pin it down to a 30-minute span. Is that what they said, Matt Harris? Is Chacon right? And I think he is. Did they state it was between 9 and 9.30?

The time of, yes, according to the autopsy report of Paul, 9 and 9.30. And Alice Paul was at 10.07. Okay, so the calls at 10.07, the deaths between 9 and 9.30, Matt Harris and Bobby Chone, that is certainly food for thought. How did they do it, Joe Scott Morgan? There may be a way that they're doing not scientifically based on the body and the autopsy. It could be Maggie Murdoch, the wife, made a phone call

and had a conversation at 8.45. Yeah, it's coming back to electronics, Nancy. Listen, anybody that's worth their salt in forensics, particularly medical legal death investigation, you don't ever narrow down beyond about a two- to three-hour window when you're talking about post-mortem interval. That is the moment in time when an individual died until you actually get a chance to examine the body.

We are not fine-tuned enough for that. That gives me an indication here that they're getting information from some other source that's going to pin this down. Extrinsic evidence to show time of death. And I remember they did find Maggie's phone the next day tossed on the side of the road in some weeds. On the street. Yeah.

Yeah, and they've got a really long driveway, and I understand that the phone was not far from the mailbox or is it on down the road, Matt? They had to drive to it. In fact, my co-host was talking with Alex's brother. And they said that they got the information from Buster, the brother of Paul, and how to ping Maggie's phone. So they started walking around on the property. They couldn't find it.

And then John Marvin got in a car with law enforcement and drove to where the phone was and they found it. Wow, that's really valuable information. Hey guys, all of this that we're learning for those of you just joining us according to fit news high velocity impact spatter on alex murdoch's shirt the shirt he was wearing the night his wife and son were murdered high velocity impact blood spatter directly ties him to the double homicide and with this backdrop about the blood spatter directly ties him to the double homicide. And with this backdrop about the blood spatter placing him at the bodies at the time they were shot dead.

Take a listen to him on his 911 call and then we'll give Dr. Sherry Schwartz a crack at it. Take a listen. Okay, what is her name? Maggie and Paul. Maggie is her name? Yes, ma'am. Okay. And please hurry.

We're getting somebody out there to you. I'm asking you these questions. Don't slow them down, okay? Are you sure they're not breathing? Is he moving at all, your son? I know you said that she was shot, but what about your son? Nobody's, they're not either one of them moving. What is your telephone number?

And does anything look out of place? Ma'am not not particularly really no ma'am okay straight out to dr sherry schwartz forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation at panther mitigation.com dr sherry schwartz what do you make of it well i think you know going back earlier to what you and mr chacon were talking about the fact that he sounds so upset in between the questions but when he has to articulate the answers to the questions he seems to do that just fine he even is able to collect himself enough to sort of i'm imagining him looking around to see if anything's out of place before answering that question. And that, to me, seems very odd.

I don't know what his psychopathology is. I've never met this person. But, you know, this seems to be a group of people, the Murdoch family, that has a high degree of comfort being around death. Right. The housekeeper, I believe, was killed at one point or died in their presence. Satterfield. Right. They don't seem to have a lot of empathy. And yet he seems to do a remarkable job of sounding like he's got this empathy for his

apparently deceased loved ones. Let me go straight back out to a special guest joining us from South Carolina. It's Susan E. Williams, high-profile lawyer. Susan, I want you to take a listen to Our Cut 28. It's more of the 911 call. Listen to this. Are they close, ma'am? They've been around with you ever since you got on the phone with me.

I have multiple people coming out there to you. Okay. I don't want you to touch them at all, okay? I don't know if you've already touched them, but I don't want you to touch them just in case they can get any kind of evidence, okay? I've already touched them trying to get a, um, to see if they were breathing. Okay, well, I just don't want you to move anything just in case they can get any kind of evidence, okay? Ma'am, I'm going to call. I need to call some of my family okay well do me a favor for me whenever you see the officer or the medics because they're all coming to you absolutely okay

but we have them come and turn on the flashes on your vehicle so they can see you, okay? Out to Susan Williams, joining us, high-profile lawyer out of South Carolina. He says, quote, I only touched them to see if they were breathing. So, let's analyze that. Completely normal. He didn't reach down to do CPR. He didn't hold his wife, hug her, try to resuscitate her. And if he only touched them to see if they were breathing, then why would there be high velocity blood spatter on his shirt? Which, of course, that would be a transfer mark anyway.

I would chime in just for a second. The 911 call is redacted in many places, which not a lot of, from what I understand, not a lot of states allow the 911 calls when they're released by FOIA to be redacted, but that one is redacted. So some of those pauses sometimes are things that were

taken out by SLID. Yeah, which I don't like at all, but I'm sure they have their reasons. What about it, Susan Williams? Did you hear what he said? I only touched them to see if they had a slit. Yeah, which I don't like at all, but I'm sure they have their reasons. What about it, Susan Williams? Did you hear what he said? I only touched them to see if they had a pulse. Well, he may have done CPR. He may have hugged them. He may have done things that went on that none of us are aware of.

But that's not what he said. He touched the body to check for a pulse. I think that's normal for someone who comes up on a dead body. I mean, particularly if it's one of your loved ones. I believe I'd try to at least resuscitate them if there was any hope. But Susan Williams, what do you tell your clients to do when they're sitting in court and this 911 call is being played for a jury? What are they supposed to be like OJ Simpson act like they're taking notes? Well, it depends circumstances but i would i would i tell my clients that uh you know to listen to what's going on to pay attention to what's going on if they need to write down notes write write down notes

but um you know we're not in a trial for this no one has been no one has i don't i still don't understand how we've gone more than 10 months and there is no arrest well i mean he's been arrested for so many other things it's not like he's going anywhere i mean he's in jail right now matt harris as he should be yes he is why is he in jail right now i wanted to add one more thing is that not only has there been no arrest within 10 months but right after the double murders there was a public statement given by law enforcement that there's no reason for the public to fear that there's a threat there's no threat of safety to the public yeah because they know it's him oh yeah it's possible that's not what i well

i mean how do you interpret that hey everybody don't worry we know who it is well it's somebody associated with uh with alec but when you were talking about talking about that when he said he checked the bodies it's probably important to note that according to i think it's wall street journal uh maggie was was either decapitated or pretty close to decapitated why do you say that matt harris the wall street journal reported that she was either nearly decapitated or decapitated because they, and then Fitz News today said she was shot twice while on her stomach. And we know that the gun that was used was the AK. And short range, that's going to, and with the kind of bullets that were used,

I don't see how you would think that Maggie was alive, according to those sources. So I don't even know why he's checking her. I guess it's just something you do. So how would that have happened, Joe Scott Morgan, if she shot with a gun? Why would she be nearly decapitated? Well, it's a blast injury, Nancy. If, in fact, she has been sustained a gunshot wound to the head and Matt had mentioned an AK platform and just so that folks know that caliber is a 7.62 by 39 it's got a very high muzzle velocity

and if you're in close proximity it's not just the projectile the bullet that's doing the damage it's this blowing out gas and if it's a contact wound heads i have actually seen this occur many times over the course of my career heads literally come apart they'll actually fracture the skulls will fracture along the suture lines and so that can explain this kind of i hate to use the termback, but this fine mist that comes on the individual relative to this high velocity blood spatter. One more thing, Nancy, that really needs to be explored here, I think, is that you have two individuals that are deceased now. So whoever is doing the examination on the shirts, or on the clothing rather, let me phrase it it that way they're having to separate out both of these high velocity patterns perhaps they might you might have two blood sources here so they have

to go in and specifically identify you're talking about mom and you're talking about son to see if both of their blood is in this fine mess yeah it's it's over line or overlaid and it can co-mingle what we call co-mingle. And so that's kind of very difficult to kind of to kind of separate out. And it could take some time to do this. Well, I'm glad you're saying that, Joe Scott, because that answers Susan Williams's question as to why 10 months have passed. If the blood spatter evidence, the high velocity impact spatter, which Fit News says is not the only thing placing Murdoch there at the scene of the double murders, its analysis and the time it takes to send things to, for instance, Quantico, could explain the 10 month lapse. What about that, Joe Scott?

Wait, hold on. I hear Bobby Chacon breaking in. Bobby, could it take that many months to perform such a delicate test? Yeah, and I've talked to Dr. Joe about this before. I mean, these tests take time and oftentimes the results take a while to analyze and get back. In my reading of the Fit News and other sources, I think it only comes from one source. I think it's the Suns. And Fit News is very careful not to say blood spatter, but they say high-velocity impact spatter, which this could be cerebrospinal fluid from the skull of the Sun, because apparently, from other reporting, the wife was shot while on the ground.

It's at least a headshot. She was shot in the back, fell, then shot in the back of the head. The Sun is hit with a shotgun to. She shot in the back cell, then shot in the back of the head. The son is hit with a shotgun to the chest and then the head. The only thing that benefits Alice Marte is in this scenario, I believe he wasn't a shooter, but he probably walked them into the kill zone. He was probably instructed to walk them into the kill zone. And so he was walking with his wife and son just before, and he knew that they were about to be shot. That's why he was so close to them, because these are both long barrel weapons.

It's very hard to shoot somebody within 36 inches with a long barrel weapon with them not knowing you're about to shoot them. It's just these weapons are meant to be fired from a much greater distance than 36 inches so but it's all also conceivable that he was instructed where to walk them so the people lying in wait with these long barrel weapons were able to take those shots and nancy i want to clear up that it was an ar-15 okay i'm glad that matt i'm glad you brought that up because the ar-15 is going to be a 5.56 millimeter or 0.223 caliber it's still a very high velocity round it's the same platform that our military and our tactical police officers use as well but this to bobby's point nancy here you're talking about two shoulder fired long weapons a shotgun and essentially a military style weapon that are being used this has to be fired from the shoulder traditionally it can be fired from the hip if you watch arnold schwarzenegger movies

but firing from the shoulder that's the standard position of these things and so you've got great barrel length here more so with the shotgun dependent upon the platform if it's a say uh or like a riot shotgun then it would have a shorter barrel on it. But if you're talking like a 12 gauge hunting shotgun, for instance, you go out and shoot birds with it's going to have a longer barrel. But it's it's it's this has always bothered me about this case. Nancy, the fact that you've got two shoulder fired long weapons involved in this double homicide. Why in the world would a single perpetrator come out to the scene armed with two long weapons?

It's just, it doesn't make any sense to me. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace isn't it true matt harris joining us from wlnk that at least one of the murder weapons was owned by the alex murdoch family well we know that the murdoch did own an ar-15 that uses the ammo that was found by the 300 blackout according to wall street journal but that was not recovered or turned over for inspection is what we're hearing so that that now so that leaves us to believe if you take every report and put all together that maybe the shotgun was uh found but that is still again one of those rumors that's out there and the ar-15 according to

journal that's not then the murdoch owned one was not collected we're not sure why that was guys take a listen to our friend denae buchi at wjcl 22 our cut one margaret and paul murdall were identified by the colleton county Coroner's Office earlier this afternoon. It was a long day for investigators at this property in Islington, a rural area north of Varnville in Colleton County. The bodies of Margaret and Paul Murdahl were found at 10 p.m. Monday night. The Colleton County Coroner's Office tells us preliminary results show both died from gunshot wounds.

Margaret Murdaw was 52 and was the mother of Paul Murdaw, who was 22. Their bodies were discovered at a family hunting lodge off Mossel Road. According to county records, Maggie owned the property. The State Law Enforcement Division has joined the investigation into their death. The Colleton County Sheriff's Office, as well as SLED, say they don't have any leads, but they don't believe that this incident should be a worry for the public. You know um again the time of the deaths has been placed between 9 and 9 30 that evening. Now back to you Matt joining us. Matt yeah he Murdoch states that he was visiting his father in the hospital at that time

and i'm very curious about whether video surveillance was seized from the hospital of course pursuant to warrant showing him at what time he left and then performing the usual experiments to see how long it would take to get from the hospital to the hunting lodge where they were murdered well i um have since learned we that he was at the hospital at one point with his dad who died a few days later but he was actually at his mom who suffers from alzheimer's and dementia at her house at from nine to nine in that range nine to nine thirty um watching a game show or something and she has a and the word is that she has a uh caretaker that was there at that time to do the vouching i don't know it's true but it's a very short drive from her mom's house i've driven it from the mom's his mom's house to the uh hunting

area i mean 20 minutes maybe 15 so he was saying he was with mom between 9 and 9 30 because law enforcement is very clear that that's the window of the murders. If they're using that as an alibi and they haven't set a specific time, but if it's an alibi I assume it lines up with the 9 to 9.30 or it's not much of an alibi. So if that makes sense that he, if he left his mom's at 9.30 he'd be, well, he'd be there before 10 o'clock but I'm just putting two and two together that if it's if it's his alibi and they think he's they killed it between 9 and 9 30 must say he

was there between 9 and 9 30 straight back to you bobby chacon how do you make sense of what you're hearing right now from matt harris well i think you know as dr joe even alluded to earlier i don't think these time frames or can be that exact i think these are approximations i think both the time of death and these times of travel and the times he left i think these are very approximations i mean if you ask me of my day yesterday i could give you approximate times of when i did certain things but those aren't going to be to the minute those are going to be plus or minus five ten minutes depending on what i was doing well not really if you use your cell phone and your nav data off of your car it will be down to the minute if that's used surveillance videos time is stamped assuming that it's stamped correctly right which is why which is why his

lawyers are snowing by his own statements and saying he had an airtight alibi when the police are saying no he's a suspect in this case a person of interest in this double homicide, because his statements of when he did certain things may not match up with the electronics that they now have. I mean, the lawyer is saying this. Jim Griffin, who is Alex Murdoch's lawyer, is saying, quote, I assure you, we have Alex's whereabouts for completely that time that night he's sitting on the bedside of his mother at her house when the coroner says the murders happened watching a game show on tv how many times have people relied on what's on tv at the time a murder or a crime occurred that doesn't always pan out the way you think it's going to pan out another thing to Matt, we also understand that this is now one of the largest and most complex criminal corruption investigations ever in Palmetto State history. This has gone now into corruption.

How? Well, I mean, Alec has been I think there's 71 charges against him, a little over $8 million that he's alleged to have taken from clients. But the number is estimated by most to be more like 12 or 15 or something. There's a judge that has come under fire because she signed off on the settlement with the Satterfield kids, but it was worded oddly. It seemed to be hidden within the system. So the Beach family who was doing that. Somebody stood by and facilitated all of the embezzlement.

Oh, there's got to be. There has to be plenty of people involved, you would think. I don't think over 10 years you can take like 15 million dollars and do it alone for all of you just joining us uh according to fit news high velocity impact spatter we think blood directly tying alex murdoch to the double murders of his wife and son. As of now, there are no murder charges leveled against anyone in the double murders of Maggie and Paul Murdoch. No one has been named a suspect at this time.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.