Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hiker-Mom Rachel Morin Found 'Naked in Pool of Blood, Side of Face Gone'

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Investigators looking into the shocking death of 37-year-old Rachel Morin, have been tight-lipped on how the mom of five died, the type of injuries she sustained, or whether she was fully clothed or not.  They're also pushing back on comments made by Michael Gabriszeski, who claims that his stepdaughter, Cecilia, found the body of Rachel Morin. Gabriszeski said that Cecilia saw Morin's body first and she began hyperventilating. He says police told Cecilia to sit down, and that she did, in a big pool of blood.  Gabriszeksi says Morin was laying on her back, fully naked, and she had brutal head trauma. It looked like her head had been smashed with a rock. The Hartford Sheriff's Office Spokesperson said of Gabriszeski, "He has no first-hand knowledge of the crime scene." The spokesman says  Mr. Gabriszeski was in the area to help search for the missing woman,  but "was not within eyesight of the crime scene”.  Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Jessica Garth- Chief, Special Victims & Family Violence Unit, State's Attorney's Office, Prince George's County, MD Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst; Twitter:@DrBethanyLive  Ron Bateman - Sherrif, Former Homicide and Undercover Narcotics; Author of "Silent Blue Tears: Voice of The Victims;" Twitter: Ronbatemanbooks Toney Wade - Commander, Cajun Coast Search and Rescue Team;  Facebook: CajunCoastSAR Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV); Board Certified Forensic Pathologist  Jen Smith- Chief Reporter for DailyMail.com, Twitter: @jen_e_smith  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous mother of five. Her body has been found off a hiking trail. Now we know the condition of her body. According to an alleged eyewitness, Rachel Moran was found naked, lying on her back, on a hiking trail near a tunnel with nearly half her face bashed away. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Series 6M111. First of all, take a listen to this. Despite law enforcement swarming the area for almost a full day, Gaberzeski's stepdaughter locating the body in about an hour. Once we got down there and I started seeing them tunnels, I started getting goosebumps. The deadly discovery made in a tunnel drain not far from the trail's main entrance. I saw a terrible mess. Gaberzeski's visions meeting the reality of a gruesome scene.

There's not going to be an open casket, I can guarantee you that. You are hearing our friends at Fox 45, but also the man that says he found the body, Michael Brzezinski. With me in all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to chief investigative reporter with DailyMail.com, Jen Smith. Jen, tell me his description of how Rachel was found. I mean, it's pretty disturbing, Nancy. This poor mother of five, he describes a pretty brutal scene, the condition of her body really, really badly beaten up. And like you said, at the top of the show, half of her face, it looked like almost gone. In fact, the way that he described it was that it looked as if someone was trying to

erase her identity. That is how badly beaten this woman's face was. She was lying on her back, she was naked, and she had been brutally assaulted. We're trying to determine what this means simply in the search for a killer. How likely is it that someone she knew would bludgeon her so horribly as if trying to hide her identity would leave her naked lying there lying there on a public hiking trail. Take a listen to more from our friend Rebecca Pryor. Whoever the killer is Gaberzeski convinced it's someone with close ties to the victim. Because it's it's too personal. If somebody were just to do a thrill kill it wouldn't be as brutal as what we witnessed. Would it? Or wouldn't it? With me an all-star panel to make sense of what we're learning now about the brutal way in which Rachel Warren, a mother of five, was murdered.

Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, very well-known psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, listen, this could go a number of ways. We've got plenty of cases where a woman is out jogging or hiking and she's brutally murdered by a stranger. We're going to talk about those. We have a lot more cases where a lot of other, not necessarily more, but a lot of other cases where a partner, a boyfriend, an ex, a husband, a a longtime high school sweetheart raises his head like a monster. But in this case, I want to hear your analysis of the way Rachel's body was found. What does that tell you about her killer?

Well, I do think it was a crime of opportunity because if this was a domestic, I think it would be in a home. I think there would be a lot of digital evidence of somebody harassing her, stalking her, if it was somebody that she knew. But this was out in nature, which suggests to me that somebody was out there waiting to assault a woman. And we know that women are often at the greatest risk when they take the same route again and again, and in places that are secluded, but also like public hiking trails, the fact that her face was bashed in, I don't see this so much as trying to identify, I'm sorry, to erase the identity of the victim, because obviously it's her.

I see this as somebody who really wants to, wants to do a brutal assault on a woman. That's the MO, a brutal assault just for the sake of inflicting harm and terror. You know, often with these crimes, Nancy, the face is assaulted or the head is removed from the body. It's severed from the body. And often people say, oh, they're trying to, you know, erase the identity of the victim. I don't think of it that way. I think they're trying to destroy the beauty of the victim. This woman was beautiful. If you see her photos, she's beautiful as a woman. She had a mother of five, but beautiful individually on her own. She had a gorgeous face, and I think defacing her in such a terrible way that half of her face was gone,

I think the thrill of the kill is taking away her beauty and her individuality. To Jessica Garth, joining us, the chief of the Special Victims and Family Violence Unit in the State's Attorney's Office, Prince George County, Maryland. Jessica, you and I have both seen a lot of homicides, usually, you know, of women and children. But in this case, I also find it very probative. In other words, it proves something that not only was her face bashed in because the killer didn't have to do that to

affect murder, but that also she was found naked, exposed out on a hiking trail. That tells me something as well. What do you make of it, Jessica Garth? Well, I think the first thing you have to think about is whether or not she was sexually assaulted before or even after she was so brutally taken from us in this case. So, you know, we can hope that that's part of the investigation, that potential DNA evidence might result from that investigation, which would help us find the person who killed her. You know, I'm thinking about that possibility of a sex assault. Jessica, if she, Rachel Lauren, had been sex assaulted, would that tend to indicate to you

her killer was someone she knew or a stranger? Well, to me, Nancy, I think it could cut either way. I think we know that domestic abusers often use sexual assault as a means of power and control. When they're doing the ultimate act of taking a life, it's the ultimate means of taking power and control over that person, usually a woman. However, I think Dr. Bethany makes a good point that if this were a crime of opportunity, this could have been a sexual assault and the victim may have fought back or perhaps the attacker intended to kill her from the first place. But if she did fight

back in this case if Rachel fought you know for her life I think that would also lend itself as to why she was beaten so brutally in this case if she was you know if she enraged her attacker in an attempt to save her own life. Many people suggested she was killed elsewhere and then dumped there but what we're learning about a description of the scene tells me that is the location of the murder. Not that she was murdered in her home or apartment and then dumped there. Let's take a listen to more about what we know about the scene, which I consider to be not a secondary or tertiary, but a primary crime scene. In other words, she wasn't killed at home. She wasn't killed in her car.

She wasn't killed elsewhere, transported there, and then dumped there, making it a tertiary crime scene. I think it was the primary. Take a listen to our Cut 32, our friends at Fox 45. Brutal and gruesome is how Michael Jaberszewski describes what he and his stepdaughter say they uncovered. Today, he took us to the Ma and Pa Trail to show us exactly where he says he uncovered Marin's body. It wasn't far from the William Street entrance here. I'd estimate only about a quarter mile in. I had never walked it myself. For Michael Gaberzeski. I told my stepdaughter, I said look it's not gonna be laying out in the open. The Ma and Pa Trail in Bel Air, uncharted territory. I said she's gonna be tucked away somewhere. Gaberzeski and his stepdaughter taking off on a search rooted on instinct. I

just kept seeing tunnels in my mind. I don't know why but I just kept seeing tunnels. Now it's really interesting that according to others, searchers had been all over this area but not far from the William Street entrance, this dad and his stepdaughter find the body, and it is reminiscent of another case similar. I'm sure you'll remember it. When Gabby Petito went missing, there was basically a worldwide search for her fiance, Brian Laundrie. Now, his parents said, and his car indicated they were telling the truth, that he went into Carleton Reserve, about 25,000 acres of nature, including gators, swamps, snakes, you name it. The FBI and others had searched for days for Brian Laundrie.

But this is what happened when his parents went in to look for him. And just about an hour. Take a listen to our cut 353 from Live Now at Fox. And a worldwide exclusive video obtained by Fox News Digital, shows the Laundries and the law enforcement officer huddling and speaking as the officer appears to show the couple an unknown discovery. The officer appeared to tell the parents, I think we might have found something.

During the couple's time inside, Chris Laundrie could be seen continually moving in and out of areas of the brush. After a short while, he and Roberta Laundrie separated with Chris and the two men moving into the brush on the left side of the trail for approximately 12 minutes. Chris returned without law enforcement and the couple continued on. And more in 354. officer shortly thereafter who later took it from them. On their way out of the park, the couple made a phone call and then received a call. They were soon joined by the law enforcement officer who could be seen patting Chris Laundrie's shoulder as he huddled with the couple. The couple left the park at around 8 45 and appeared emotional when confronted by protesters there. Meanwhile, about a dozen uniformed law enforcement officers

and approximately six people in plain clothes could be seen entering the park with several police or unmarked vehicles and gators seen entering. The North Port Mobile Command Center arrived at the park shortly after 10 30 a.m. local time the laundry's returned home shortly thereafter so with all of the searchers in Carleton Park the parents go in and in less than two hours it was about what Jackie wasn't a little over an hour they find Brian laundry they find articles belonging to him as do police and that seems to be what happened here. Joining me is a renowned searcher, Tony Wade, commander of the Cajun Coast Search and Rescue Team. You can find him on Facebook at Cajun Coast S-A-R. Tony, thank you for being with us. You know, when you go into a search like this,

it's very difficult. I've been on them. You have to go basically shoulder to shoulder so you don't miss anything so much as a sock or a bra or a hair barrette. You know, that reminds me, we took the twins to the beach and Lucy lost her favorite hair barrette. Do you know how long we looked for the hair barrette? We found it, by the way. But long story short, you're looking for anything, any minute piece of clothing or an artifact from the victim. Here, apparently, searchers had been in there for some time, and this dad and stepdaughter go in, and they find her. He says he had had premonitions of looking at a tunnel, and sure enough, she was found near a tunnel. Describe a search like this in a wilderness preserve, Tony.

First of all, you know, these searches are extremely difficult. It's covering a massive area. You know, the first thing that takes place in a search this magnitude is to set up a grid and have everybody run that grid where everybody crosses where each other has walked. You know, also in an instance like this, if there are caves or there are tunnels or things such as that, those need to be targets. You know, they would say correctly earlier that they're probably not going to be left out in the wide open. We find that to be true in most cases. So if there are openings somewhere, we target those pretty hard in first. But the essential part of doing a search like that is

to set up a very good grid, you know, depending on how many searches you have out there and stick to that grid until every square inch is covered and look for anything that doesn't belong. You know, most people get tunnel vision and they're looking for a body or they're looking for a certain object and they're losing focus on other things that are there. You know, we instruct everybody to look for anything that does not fit. If the grass is green and there's something blue, then the blue doesn't fit. But again, these searches are extremely difficult to ron bateman joining us share a former homicide and undercover agent author of silent blue tears voice of the victims and you can find him at ron bateman books.com ron thank you for being with us the search was extensive but it has happened it has happened and we saw it happen with Chris and Roberta Laundrie.

That Carleton Reserve, which granted is 25,000 acres of wildness, had been searched, had been aerial searched, you name it. Dogs have been brought out to the extent they could go into a swamp. But the parents go in and I noticed that they started where his car, Brian Laundrie's car had been parked. They start there and walk straight in, and they find him. It's certainly not unheard of. Yeah, and that stunk right off the bat to me.

In a case like this, where I'm hearing this Michael G. fella taking his stepdaughter to a certain area. That's concerning to me. And to me, talking about the gentleman about a search, this is obvious that it is a bloody scene. So therefore, the suspect is definitely going to have blood on him. So a search really needs to be intensified looking for an article of clothing that the killer would have dumped, whether he or she buried it somewhere in that woods. And again, the grid search would really produce that. But also the surrounding area where you need to search. Dumpsters, you know, where nearby, you know, convenience stores, dumpsters, the person's trash can.

I'd want to know, again, we talked about ring cameras or other type of models on doors the other day. I would want to know what some of our prime people, ex-boyfriend, I mean, a boyfriend, ex-husband, Michael G, stepdaughter, what they were wearing when they left the home and how they returned. Did they return without a shirt? Did they return with a different color shirt? So that search is really, really key. And hitting local dumpsters before they get emptied is real important.

Wait, you were saying, you'd be curious as to what, who was wearing when they left home? So, you know, it's really important to work as hard to exclude a suspect as it is to develop one. So I would immediately look at the ex-husband, the boyfriend, this Michael G. fella, the stepdaughter. And I say the stepdaughter, not as a suspect, but to exclude her because you have the principle of transference of evidence. When you go somewhere, you most likely leave something of yours behind, hair, semen, what have you, and you take something with you.

It could be the person's blood. It could be the person's blood. It could be the person's hair. So we would want to exclude these people as much as we wanted to develop them. Now, I'm curious. When you say Michael G., you are referring to the guy who says he found her, correct? Yes, ma'am. I don't want to destroy his last name. I hear you. Okay, guys, it's not the first time that an innocent person finds a body and then they, because they find a body, become a suspect.

I want to tell you about a story. Jackie, I think I've told you this before. Sid over there. Yeah, Sid, this is a true story. When I was subbing for Larry King, which was a huge, great honor for me to be his permanent guest host. I just couldn't believe that happened to me. Well, one night, Larry couldn't come in, and at the last minute, I did a segment, a whole show on psychic detectives, of course, which I did not believe in. And we covered a case where a woman, I believe it was out in California, was, I think, at her kitchen sink, and she says she had a vision of something

white, just like Tony Wade was saying, if you see something that doesn't fit in, look at it. Something white out in a canyon, and it was so strong, she got her husband and her son in the car. This was at night, by the way, and they go driving out in the canyons and they see something white. They go over and it was a nurse that had gone missing. She was dead. Well, guess what? The cops, I swear I believe it was the L.A. cops. Hey, Sue, could you look this up?

The L.A. cops arrest her because they're like, woman, you did not have a vision. Etta Louise Smith. Yes, yes. Etta Louise Smith. Absolutely. And they arrest the woman because how else in the world would she know there's a body out in a canyon? Well, lo and behold, as the investigation goes on, it turns out the victim, a nurse,

had gotten off her shift at the hospital and some technical legal term, a-holes, had pulled up beside her at a red light and they were heckling her and they grabbed her. I believe they raped her, killed her, and threw her body out there. That woman, Etta Louise, she sued the LAPD and got a huge verdict for that. My point is, when people When people find a body, they often come under suspicion. My friend, Phil Vetrano, is one of those people. Take a listen to our cut 49 from Crime Watch Daily. That's a day that I will never forget. I started to worry, which is unusual. I had a feeling.

So I called her three times, didn't answer, and I went out looking for her. There was no sign of her. Four hours after Phil's phone calls, pings from Karina's cell phone led him and police to Karina. You found your daughter? I did, with the help of the PD. He found his daughter. He was the last one to speak to her. Do you know they pulled him out of her funeral to get DNA? They should have gotten his DNA.

My friend, Vilva Chana, is not necessarily during his daughter's funeral. But that said, he became a suspect. Of course, he is not involved in any way in Karina's death. I believe the person's name is Chanel Lewis, has been convicted based on many factors, including DNA. Okay, here's another one. Roy Cronk, the government worker who's out doing his job, he kept seeing something in the bushes. He called police. They wouldn't come, wouldn't come. Finally, they came. It was the remains of little Kelly Anthony. Anybody remember the name, top mom, Casey Anthony? Take a listen to our cut 50 WFTS.

I was standing behind it. I still didn't think it was real. So I very gently took it and put it into the right eye socket and I gently pivoted it up and I looked down and I realized what it was and I set it down as gently as I could and went up and called my area supervisor. Deputies would later uncover tiny bones next to that tiny skull tossed away like trash. Everybody went cray on Roy Cronk, who without Cronk, we may never have found little Kelly. And then there are the people that find the bodies that really are involved in the murders. Do I have to say the name Alex Murdoch? Take a listen to our cut 48, our friends at GMA. In June of 2021, Murdoch made a 911 call claiming he'd found his wife and son shot to death outside their hunting lodge. My name is Alex Murdoch. Please hurry.

He was indicted by a grand jury last year and has pleaded not guilty. But prosecutors argue he's a man who lived a double life, alleging Alec killed his family to gain sympathy and distract from mounting financial wrongdoings. The day of reckoning was upon him, and he was out of cards to play after he's been playing every card he could for 10 years. So there you have it. Jessica Garth, isn't it true that when somebody calls 911 or they find the body, you look at them? Absolutely. I mean, you have to, especially in cases where they're the person who finds the body when nobody else could.

I mean, it's just such a, it's not a red flag. At least it's an indication that somebody that you should take a closer look at because, you know, how did they know where to go when no one else did when all of these seasoned investigators couldn't find the body that this person could. Now, I want you to listen to our friend in Cut 40, Dave Mack at Crime Online. Investigators into the shocking death of 37-year-old mom of five, Rachel Morin, have declined to comment on how she died, the type of injury she sustained, or whether she was fully clothed or not. However, a man named Michael Gabryzinski claims that he and his stepdaughter, Cecilia, and another person were

helping search for Morin when Cecilia and her friend found the body of Rachel Morin. Gabryzinski says that Cecilia saw Morin's body first and she began hyperventilating. Gaberzeski claims police told Cecilia to sit down and that she sat down in a big pool of blood. Okay, I'm going to circle back to Dr. Jean Gorniak, an esteemed medical examiner on that pool of blood. But my point here is the following. Jack, could you play the rest of 40? When the U.S. edition of The Independent reached out to the Sheriff's Department to confirm what Gabbrzeski is claiming, the spokesperson for the department said, quote, he has no firsthand knowledge of the crime scene, unquote. Mr. Gabbrzeski was in the area to help search for the missing woman, the sheriff's office explained, but said, quote, he was not within eyesight of the crime scene.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I find that really interesting that now authorities are saying he didn't find the body. But what I notice, they're not saying Jen Smith. Jen Smith is the chief investigative reporter with DailyMail.com who's on this like a cheap suit, let me tell you. Jen, they're not saying that what Gaberzeski's saying is false. They're going, well, he's not the one that actually saw her first. They're saying he wasn't within eyesight, but they're not denying that she was lying out near this tunnel naked with her head bashed in in a pool of blood. They're not saying that's incorrect. They're not. And, you know, quite frankly, I think what's happened here is this police department is a little frustrated with this man. He has given away all this information that they have been concealing from the public

as clearly an investigative tactic, right? We've seen it before, where the police department don't want everybody in the world to know things about the state of the body or the crime scene because it, you know, broadens the pool of suspects. If it's only the killer who knows, then it's going to be easier to track them down once they come forward or, you know, whatever it may be. What this man has described, you're

absolutely right, Nancy, they are not refuting it. They're kind of dancing around it. But we know that he wasn't alone. He's already said that he was with his stepdaughter and that actually she was the one who saw the body first. You're right. That's Jackie waving a sign at me. He says it's the stepdaughter. Exactly what you said. Go ahead. Right. I mean, I really think this police department

has kind of tied themselves up in knots and they're getting a little uppity at this guy for no good reason. Like you say, all he's done is shared pieces of information that they were clearly trying to hold back and let me tell you this police department maybe they're overwhelmed i'm not sure they haven't been that forthcoming they have refused to answer many of our questions from the beginning of this they wouldn't even tell us if rachel had gone out hiking alone which was kind of a basic detail you

would think they might want to share um so I think that they are frustrated with this witness, but they are not in a position to deny what he is saying. They also back up to some extent what he is describing. Take a listen to our cut 21. This is the sheriff, Jeffrey Gowler. There's indicators that our detectives have no doubt, and I'm not going to go into what physically they observed at the scene, but the investigators believe, and sadly, it's a homicide case.

You know what? I believe Michael G. I believe not necessarily that he was the one that first found her. I think he was there with his stepdaughter and a friend and that the girls, the stepdaughter and the friend found her and that he is describing what they saw or maybe he came up after that. But they're not refuting what he said and I don't believe that right now he is the culprit, which leads me to an esteemed guest. Dr. Jan Gorniak, medical examiner, Clark County. If you don't know what that is, it's Vegas and there's not a lack of business there. Board certified forensic pathologist. Let's just say that she's seen one or two dead bodies. Dr. Gorniak, what convinces me that Michael G is telling the truth, whether he found the body first or not,

about the condition in which she was found. And this also tells me this is a primary crime scene. She was in a pool of blood and other accounts have stated that there was a trail of blood indicating she had been dragged to that spot from a short very short distance away either way that tells me that's where she was killed what do you think dr gorniak and second question before i forget it dr gorniak with her head bashed in what if she died of just let's say asphyxiation What if she was strangled dead, and then she was beaten post-mortem? How do we tell with that kind of damage to the body, what's the true COD cause of death? Okay, so let's go to your first question about the primary scene. It does sound like that's the primary scene because of all the blood. Had it

been someplace else, i don't think there would have been that much blood she would have bled out someplace else and so there wouldn't be a lot of blood or evidence there where she is or close proximity to her and then also but with the drag marks um the second question with her her extensive head trauma that she suffered, we will be able to still tell. So one thing that we do on all homicide victims, especially blunt force trauma, we take x-rays. So that's going to help us, one, see injuries before we even start the autopsy. So that gives us a diagram to sort of say how to approach the case. So we're going to have x-rays.

And then if someone is strangled, and actually I've had a case recently like this. If someone is strangled, there's this U-shaped bone that sits really high up in your neck called the hyoid bone. And if that's fractured, we can tell whether it's fractured before death, antemortem, or postmortem, after death. And if that's fractured, then we can say that they were strangled. How can you tell if the hyoid, and I'm showing where it is right here, basically, doesn't it just kind of hold the tongue in place? Is that what it does? Correct. Okay, so it's just kind of like floaty there. How can you tell if the hyoid is fractured ante or postmortem? Good, great question. So the hyoid bone is very fragile. So when we're doing the autopsy, we can actually break it, taking it out. So in order for

us to say that there was, it was fractured before death, we have to see hemorrhage around it. Hold on, Dr. Gorniak. Jackie, we just learned something. I did not know. Did you guys know, Sidney, Ellie, that just by taking, removing the hyoid, it's so delicate, you could fracture it? It sounds a little like a delicate seashell that you would find and you pick it up and it breaks in your hand. Correct. Yes. So we have to always be careful when we're taking it out. But the body always tells a story

which is what i love about my my profession it's going to tell the story you just gave me chills by the way when you said that go ahead man would i love to have you on the stand on direct not cross but direct you kill me go ahead so the the hemorrhage so your body always has to be reacting so if the bone is broken before death your body's is going to react to it, meaning there's going to be bleeding around it. So that's like if you get a bruise, right, it's going to bleed. But if you get hit after you're dead, it's not going to have a reaction. So if the hyoid bone is broken and we see hemorrhage at the fracture site, that means it was broken before death. If we see a fracture and there is no hemorrhage, meaning the body did not react to that fracture,

then that means it was after death. So like I said, I just recently had a case where the young lady had a lot of sharp force injuries to her face. And I thought it was going to be that, you know, from the glass. It was a broken bottle. And actually, when I did the autopsy, she was actually strangled because of that hyoid bone. So you will be able to tell. Question, Dr. Gorniak, when you go out to dinner with people or you're having coffee, do you talk about autopsies? It's not revealing, of course, not revealing, you not revealing names or specificities that could identify a victim.

But do people ask you questions? Or am I the only one that could just listen to you all day? No. People ask questions. And obviously, like I said, I love my profession. We get to give a voice to the voiceless, and get to tell their story, right? I, you know, sometimes people think I do talk to them, and they talk back, and they help me tell their story. And that's what, you know, going to court is about to being an advocate for

the patient. So but the questions I don't like is, what's the worst thing you've ever seen? Because you don't want to know that. But I enjoy talking about how I do my job and, you know, in some of those stories. Hey, can you have a high or a broken high? This is a Jackie question. Can you have a broken hyoid bone and live? I would say yes. I would say yes too.

Okay. It's like a broken pinky and you can still live. Right. Because the thing, it takes a lot of pressure to break the hyoid bone. Then you're collapsing vessels in the airway, and that's why people die from being strangled. Like if you took a football to the neck, or a baseball or something,

that could fracture it, but you still live. Okay, she's happy. Let's run for the moment before she comes up with Nancy Grace. We're talking about what happened to Rachel Morin and everybody on the panel remember we're not do I have to come up with a new phrase to get it into your head we're not having high tea with King Charles and Camilla jump in for Pete's sake because I know dr. Bethany Marshall is standing on her head to say something so this is what we know this is what's happening help me figure out who did it is this the work of someone she didn't

know and we've got all the i've got so many similar transactions with examples of women out hiking or jogging and they were attacked by strangers you know for example let's go with 31 molly tibbets our friends at inside edition listen we're learning more about what happened the night Molly Tibbetts was slain allegedly by an illegal alien this was the country road where Molly was jogging when police say the suspect Christian Rivera got out of his car and started running alongside Molly Molly got scared and pulled out her phone and threatened to call police now what happened next remains unclear but somehow Molly ended up inside the

suspects vehicle investigators say he then drove to a spot on this lonely road where he dumped Molly's body and of course there is the daughter of my friend Phil Karina Vetrano 20 year-year-old Chanel Lewis, never met her in life, murdered her, brutally beat her. Her teeth were found scattered all around. Her face was bashed in, very similar to Rachel Moore's. Let's take a listen to Cut 28 CBS. A six-month exhaustive manhunt leading to this moment Karina Vetrano's family had prayed for. 20-year-old Chanel Lewis in handcuffs now charged with the 30-year-old's murder.

Police say Lewis was tracked down late last week at his home in East New York, Brooklyn, that he shares with his mother and sister. It's where investigators say the unemployed man confessed to detectives that he raped and then strangled Vetrano, her body found by her father in the grassy parkland less than a mile from her home. And of course, we just covered the case of the young mom, a teacher, Eliza Fletcher. I believe that was in Memphis. Take a listen to our Cut 23 WREG.

Fletcher was jogging down Central Avenue around 4.30 this morning when investigators say she was approached by someone who forced her into a dark colored SUV and drove off. You don't want to hear that that's going on. We want to find her. We don't know. We don't know what's going on. Hart Robinson is a friend of Fletcher and got the news this morning. Of course she was murdered according to police by 38 year old Cleotha Ab, who had never met her. He didn't know her from Adam's house cat. So who murdered Rachel Morin?

This is what we know. Take a listen to our Cut 41, Dave Mack, Crime Online. Since the body of Rachel Morin was discovered in a drainage tunnel not far from the main entrance of the Ma and Pa Trail, Michael Gabryzzeski has spoken out to the media about what he and his stepdaughter found or witnessed. The following information has been reported as fact by Michael Gabbrzeski. Claim number one, Gabbrzeski's stepdaughter Cecilia discovered the body of Rachel Morin in the drainage tunnel.

Claim number two, Rachel Morin was lying on her back fully naked and she had brutal head trauma. It looked like her head had been smashed with a rock. Claim number three, there was a 15 to 20 foot blood trail. So it looked like she had been beaten and dragged into position. Claim number four, the right side of her face was gone. And claim number five, it looked like the killer was trying to erase her identity. Okay, that's what we know right now.

Based on that, Dr. Bethany Marshall, weigh in. Well, in this case, here's my thought about this. This seems like a serial killer's first kill. And the reason I say that is that it is so crude. The weapon is crude. It's a rock. You know, if serial killers gain sophistication, or even if it was a domestic, somebody would have thought ahead a little bit better, would have had access to a weapon, would have maybe shot or maybe strangled. But in this

case, the weapon appears to be a rock. And that tells me that this perpetrator is not only desperate to kill, but that he or she, most likely he, is in an area that's both secluded, but women who are on their own tend to traverse this path. And that the MO in terms of killing and the blunt force trauma is that the infliction of pain in and of itself is incredibly sexually exciting. And you know, I talk about this all the time that with serial killers, the infliction of cruelty and pain, it enhances their sexual arousal. So the fact that she was found unclothed, in a pool of blood, tells me that there could have been a sexual assault, but not the type of penetration or something that we might think of

in terms of abnormal sex. But somebody who inflicted cruelty, bashed in her face, did what he wanted with the body, and then masturbated on her or masturbated somewhere else so that semen might never be found found can i jump also nancy yeah hold on yeah i just want to say that everything jackie's waving a sign at me that what michael g has said has not been confirmed but nobody's denied it either who is this jumping in is it ron or t? It's Ron. Please do. Guys, this is Ron Bateman, former homicide, undercover, narcotics, sheriff, and author of Silent Blue Tears. Go ahead, Ron, please.

I think DNA is going to be really critical in this case. And I think what I would like to know, and I've already read one report that boyfriend has voluntarily given up his DNA. That's a good sign. But I would really want to delve into doing search warrants on all of my potential suspects or people of interest to get their DNA, again, to exclude or develop that. Because there's going to be trace evidence if that person drove there in their cars, for example. And I would love to get search warrants, again, for people's cars that are people of interest or suspects to see if you can develop any kind of trace evidence. Again, going back to that principle of transference of evidence where you're going to take something with you from the scene or you're going to leave something there. So DNA is going to be critical.

Nancy, if I could jump in about that. Sure, go ahead. Whoever did this is a lurker. He's been lurking along that trail looking for just the right victim at just the right time, just the right time of day or night. So this is a man who has been going past the ranger station, has maybe been talking to women. I'm sure somebody who's been on that trail has seen a strange guy. You know, we think of this crime as, you know, initiating at the point of the discovery of the body or whenever this poor victim was, her face was bashed in. But there has been weeks or even months leading up to this crime where the

perp has been working up his courage. Where has he been? Who has he been talking to? What car has he been driving? I mean, he's going to to leave some not just a footprint in terms of you know dna but in terms of who he's been approaching um trying to work up his courage and then he didn't have the courage and then he retreated to jessica garth chief of the special victims family violence unit at prince george's county what do you think jessica i well i do think it's a good sign that the boyfriend gave his DNA, but of course he could just be doing that to try to throw investigators off the scent. In this case, I think it's a good idea to get DNA from everybody

to not only eliminate suspects for if this tracker and his stepdaughter did, you know, potentially touch the body, you would want to be able to eliminate them from the scene, but also to potentially determine whether or not, you know, he is involved. At this point, Nancy, you know, it's a really tough call. My gut tells me that this could be the work of somebody who did not know this victim. I think it has so many similarities to the other women that we've seen who were killed by strangers, by potential serial killers, that I think that it could possibly go in that direction. But I never cease to be surprised when people are murdered by people who are supposed to love them as well. So I think it just remains to be seen. Jen Smith, of course, we can't. Jen Smith, joining me, chief investigative reporter, DailyMail.com. We can't ignore that the boyfriend just made them a social media couple.

He announced it four days before she's dead. And he's got a rap sheet, I believe, off the top of my head. I remember 14 arrests since 2014. That said, jump in, Jen. Yeah, mean i was you took the word out of my mouth sure he's come forward he's offered his dna a good sign but as you know we just mentioned that he could be doing this to try and throw police off the scent and this rap sheet problematic 14 arrests we've got drug charges assault assault, refusing arrest. They only just became Facebook official. They've been dating for a handful of weeks. In addition to giving police his DNA, this boyfriend,

his name is Richard Tobin. He's 10 years younger than Rachel, by the way. He posts on social media saying, I know what everybody might think, but I promise I didn't do anything to hurt her. I have a past, but I would never hurt Rachel. Now, that's kind of an interesting approach, right? We at this stage, I don't even think her body had been found when he made this post. It was a kind of curious way to respond to some of the suspicion that was surrounding him now we don't know much about their relationship from rachel's side of things we haven't really heard much from her sister rebecca who had been appealing for information they now are kind of battening down the hatches and running everything through an attorney and a family spokesperson which is

you know the kind of arguably sensible thing to do when the investigation is as crucial as it is right now. But aside from what he has said about himself, there isn't a huge amount that we know about this guy or their relationship. He says it was good. We don't know that for sure. We wait as justice unfolds if you know or even think you know something regarding the brutal murder and what many people believe to be the sex assault of Rachel Moran. Remember, she's got five little children, two boys, three girls. Mommy's not coming home for them. please dial 1-888-540-8477.

Repeat, 888-540-8477. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.