Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hiker-Mom Rachel Morin: MYSTERY PERP CAUGHT ON RING CAM 2000 MILES AWAY

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Police now have two new pieces of evidence in their search for whoever killed Rachel Morin. Harford County Sheriff Jeffery Gahler tells Nancy Grace that not only was DNA pulled from the Morin crime scene, but that DNA linked to an assault across the country.  What's more, there video of the suspect leaving the California crime scene.  The video shows the suspect from the back with his head partially turned to the side. There is no frontal view, but investigators say someone should recognize the perpetrator.      Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Jessica Garth - Chief, Special Victims & Family Violence Unit, State's Attorney's Office, Prince George's County, MD Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Sheriff Jeffrey Gahler - Sheriff of The Harford County Sheriff’s Office; Instagram/Twitter: @harford_sheriff, FB:  Harford County Sheriff’s Office  Dr. Monte Miller - Director, Forensic DNA Experts LLC; Specialist in Sexual Assaults and Murder, and Former Forensic Scientist for Texas Dept. of Public Safety State Crime Lab Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine and Founder: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference  Vincent Hill - Anchor/Reporter for FOX 45 in Baltimore, Former Police Officer and Private Investigator; Author: “Playbook to A Murder;" Twitter & IG: @VincentHillTV    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The community is stunned after they learn that Hiker Mom, out on a very well-known trail, the Ma and Pa Trail, ends up brutally murdered and, I think, sex attacked as well. But in the last days, a major break in the case in the search for the killer of a mother of five, so-called hiker mom, Rachel Lauren. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

We have a very good idea who is the perp. First of all, take a listen to our friend, Colonel William Davis. DNA evidence is part of nearly every modern day investigation. And in Rachel's case, DNA evidence was collected by our forensic services unit. That DNA was analyzed by the Maryland State Police and it was ran through the National CODIS system. has come back as a match tied to a home invasion and an assault of a young girl in Los Angeles this past March. Unfortunately, that suspect has not been positively identified, but he did leave behind his DNA. Based on the DNA evidence, we consider the individual in the video we obtained from the

Los Angeles Police Department and that we are about to show you on our TV screens to be the person that murdered Rachel Morin on August 5th. DNA. Isn't it amazing? We actually have someone's genetic identification deoxyribonucleic acid. It's a genetic fingerprint, but we don't have the perp. We don't know his name. We know everything about him because of his DNA, but we don't have him. And why do we think he is Rachel's killer? What more do we know? Listen.

Based on our analysis of this video and witness observations, we believe the suspect to be approximately 5'9", 160 160 pounds and of Hispanic descent if you have any information about this suspect we are asking you to please call our detectives at our tip line and the tip line number is four one zero eight three six seven seven eight eight we've also established a dedicated email address, and that email address is rmtips at harfordshariff.org. Again, that's rm, as in Rachel Morin, tips at harfordshariff.org. It's killing me to know that we know so much about the man believed to have murdered this beautiful young mom of five, but he's connected to a home invasion assault in L.A.

over 2,000 miles away. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, take a listen to Hour Cut 76 from the Harford Sheriff's Office. We collected DNA from our crime scene. The Maryland State Police analyzed that DNA for us, ran it through the National CODA system, and that came back as a match to the crime that occurred in Los Angeles where they had recovered DNA from this person that you saw in the video.

The video that we watched, what did it tell us about? I mean, Los Angeles where they had recovered DNA from this person if you saw in the video the video that we watched what it tell us about I mean what Los Angeles police released the chief of what is it is that home is it I've seen them a crime is that a home and that is the suspect leaving the home the scene of the crime there and that was a home invasion and assault correct our little girl is that just a young girl that's only gonna leave it at a younger I don't want to talk about the family there but it was a young girl in the house that got assaulted. We know so much. She's within our grasp, but we don't have a name. And also, interesting, we don't

have a face. Again, I'm Nancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. Joining us right now, Sheriff Jeffrey Gaylor, Sheriff of the Harford County Sheriff's Office, and you can find him at harfordshiriff.org. Sheriff, thank you so much for being with us. I'm going to get to the who, what, where, why, when, but does it just drive you crazy? You know so much about this guy. You know his origin. You know his height. You know all about him, his very DNA, but you don't know who he is. You can't put out an APB on, you know, Charles Madsen. You can't do it. You don't have a name. Is that driving you crazy? Sure, Nancy, and thanks for having me on,

and yes, you know, it's what our detectives are working so hard on. It's what's driving our community crazy. It is frustrating. But the reason we appreciate the opportunity to be on any media is because someone out there does know that person's name. Someone's going to look at that video. Someone's going to look at the still shots from the video. And I'm as frustrated as everybody else. I read the comments on social media. Where's the other side of his face? If we had it, we would put it out there. We just haven't obtained it yet. Hopefully there's some additional video footage that will come our way. But off of what's there, off of his build, off of his walk, off of his appearance, there's someone out there in the world who knows exactly who that person is, and we need that person to tell us so that we can get a match on the DNA and put this monster behind bars. This is reminiscent of a case now famous, or should I say infamous, the disappearance of Jennifer Kessie, a beautiful young girl. When her parents got to her condo, when she didn't show up for work,

they see that she's just gotten out of the shower. It's still damp. The towels are damp. Her clothes for the day are laid out. She liked to lay her clothes out on the bed before she went to work. But no, Jennifer. An exhaustive search has ensued since Jennifer went missing. And a video emerges.

Yes, a video of an unknown male walking directly along in front of her condo, but no face. Take a listen to our cut eight, our friends from CBS. The person could not be identified because the surveillance video captured a photo every three seconds and each time the figure's face was obstructed by a fence post. In 2017, the Kessies recruited private investigator Michael Toretta to help them conduct their own investigation. Toretta learned from speaking with people who lived in Jennifer's complex that construction workers were living in an empty apartment just across from Jennifer. All this evidence, even a video, but just at the right moment, the camera panned and didn't get the face.

Joining me in addition to special guest Sheriff Jeffrey Gaylor, Vincent Hill, investigative reporter, Fox 45 Baltimore, interesting, former police officer and P.I. Author of Playbook to a Murder. Tell me all about everything you know about getting the DNA and about this video that has emerged out of L.A. Well, Nancy, first I can say when we were watching the presser in the newsroom, it was a WTF moment, if you will. A guy from L.A. or wherever he's from, his DNA found at Rachel's crime scene. Total shock. And, of course, our viewers want to know, well, why do we not know this guy's name?

Because we have his DNA. But a lot of people don't understand. If he's never been arrested before, you're not going to have his name, even though his DNA may be in CODIS. He may be walking out doing other crimes crimes and no one knows who he is vincent hold on hold on i got to follow up on what you're saying don't lose your thought sheriff giller please jump in whenever you have a thought with me jessica garth chief of the special victims family violence unit prince george county veteran trial lawyer jessica hear people, and I'm afraid that includes jurors, they say, well, you got a fingerprint. Can't you match it up? You can get

a perfectly beautiful, perfect, pristine, latent print. In other words, the one found at the scene, the latent print. But unless you have something to compare it to, you can't get a name. Here's a good example. Like DNA in Koeberger. There's three unknown male DNA profiles found in and around the home where the four students were slain. But they've tried and tried. You got to have something to match it to in order to present that to a jury. If the perp has never been

arrested, is not in the system, hasn't had to give a fingerprint for any reason, there's nothing to compare it to. So yes, we've got this guy's DNA that we think murdered Rachel Morin, leaving her five children without a mother. They've been split up and gone to different homes, but we can't get the guy. Explain. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, you know, we kind of refer to it as the CSI effect when we're trying cases that jurors expect that we're going to have, you know, all kinds of DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, and that there will be an immediate match that's going to pop up on the screen and it's going to tell us, you know, who committed the crime.

But you're exactly right. You know, you have to have a suspect to compare it to. So what our DNA analysts do is they develop what's called a profile, and I'll leave it to the doctors to explain that a little bit more. But we take that profile and we compare it to the known profile of a degree of certainty that it is the same person who left this DNA. And then as lawyers, it's our job to explain to the jury that, you know, the statistic means that this is the person who left this DNA on the scene. But if you don't have that person to compare it to, then you just, you know, your investigators are just trying to track down who they can draw that profile from. crime stories with nancy grace back to you vincent hill reporter fox 45 baltimore go ahead yeah i mean a lot of viewers are trying to track down why do we not know this guy's name i mean

i've seen the comments all over facebook, our social media. And again, if he hasn't been arrested, it's like I told my newsroom, if he hasn't been arrested, this guy is free to walk around until he does something even more drastic, more horrific, and he's actually caught. But to go back to something else, we only have a side profile in the back of his head. I can tell you for a fact that my mother, even at 50 years old, could spot my head from a crowd. So someone knows who this guy is just by that quick picture of him walking out of this house in Los Angeles. And Nancy, Sheriff, I agree with Vincent 100%. That's what I said. And I think it's going to be, you know, opportunities like this to reach a large audience, to have people go to our social media page and look at this.

I said in a few hours after we didn't have, you know, somebody in custody very quick that this is going to be solved through science and technology. And the science part has narrowed us down to this individual. And I wish the technology had given us a better picture. We're still out there scouring and hopefully we can come up with one, but this is what we have for now. But I agree with Vincent a hundred percent. Somebody knows somebody looks at that picture and they know exactly who this person is.

Hey guys, you know, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Of course, I agree with Sheriff Geller. That pretty much goes, you know,

unsaid. And we, we know I'm going to agree with him. Vincent Hill. I agree with Sheriff Geller. That pretty much goes, you know, unsaid. And we know I'm going to agree with him. Visit Hill. I agree with you partially. Yes, your mother may be able to pick your head out of a crowd. I could pick out my children. I could pick out my husband. But what mom is going to turn in their child?

And what mom? Who is going to ID some guy's head? Well, you know what? Let me throw this to a shrink. All right. Dr. Bethany Marshall is joining us. A psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, bottom line, if you can identify somebody's head, you're not turning them in. You know why? Because you're close to them. It's got to be a mother or a sister. Not going to turn them in unless they've got some very, unless they're like a cone head, a very odd shaped head that co-workers can identify.

It's so true, Nancy. You know, this family, well, first of all, this perp probably went straight to mommy's house after the commission of the crime because that's what they always do. I don't know about that because this is in, typically, yes, they go run to mommy's. Isn't that true, Sheriff Jeffrey Geller? When a guy, BS, bond forfeitor, doesn't show up to court, I always say, go to mommy's house and look under the bed and look in her closet. She took him in, and that's where he is. They always go to the auntie, the grandma, the mommy.

That's typically true. No, I would just say I agree with you. Be it a mom or be it family. You know, people, when they're in trouble, yeah, that's where they turn to. And that's who they trust will hide. But this person, this person should not be hidden. This person is a threat to every single person on the planet until we figure out where they are, I'll say on the planet, because wherever he is, whether he's still here

in our community or he's moved to, you know, next surrounding state or he's came back to LA, he poses a threat. Anybody that would commit these kinds of crimes in both LA and our homicide here, he poses a threat to anyone that is around, family member or not, and he needs to be taken off the street. You know what? You left out a big swath of area between LA and Bel Air, Maryland, not Bel Air, California. All in between. How the hay does he get that? We counted up, Jackie, what was it? 2,600 miles? Yes. 2,669 miles from Maryland to LA how the hey did he get that far and I'm looking at his picture guys I assume everybody has looked at the stills or the video let's talk about what we see in this picture number one

do you see the hairstyle I guarantee you he's either got still that hairstyle or something similar where part of his head is shaved from like the neck up and then he's got like a fake mullet going down the back there's going to be some type of a unique hairstyle mark my words okay he looks to me between I'm gonna go with 19 to 29. Do you agree with that or disagree, Sheriff Gaylor? Yeah, we put it at 20 to 30, so right in that same ballpark. But the haircut's very distinctive.

It's been the number one source of the tips that we've received. And I would ask, you know, anybody hearing this, and if they have a tip, you said the numbers earlier, but we have a special email box, rmtips, Rachel Mor tips rm tips at harford sheriff.org um to let us know but that hairstyle is certainly distinct and i think if you look at his walk is you know how he carries himself uh you know he's a muscular young man um and five nine", 160 pounds. Again, somebody has seen him. Somebody has maybe been at the gym with him or working a job with him. Somebody knows who he is on that picture. And Nancy, not only that, but he's a menacing figure. And even though the family may circle the wagons,

just like remember Brian Landry's family, they knew possibly that he had murdered Gabby Petito. But did they turn him in? Did they assist Gabby Petito's family? No. They circled the right wagons and they protected their own son. But with this perp, because he's menacing, because he's a creeper, I'm sure that there's women he's dated, people he went to high school with, people he works with who knows that there's something off or wrong about these guys. Right. Even like with Brian Koberger, all these people are coming forward now saying that he was dominating other women, that he was a scary figure, that he was a bully. So there are plenty of people. I don't think we have to rely on the family to come forward because there are people in his circle who know something's wrong with him.

Hey, guys, I want to find out. Vincent Hill, can you tell me what is he accused of doing in L.A. specifically? Well, Nancy, and I may get the share to correct me on this, but I believe there was some type of home invasion and assault of a young female inside that home in Los Angeles back in March of this year but I defer to the sheriff on that but I believe that's the information we received from the Los Angeles Police Department. Let's take a look at the video. He's opening up the door of the home of the victim. I think that he raped. He's leaving. He doesn't even have his shirt on. Man, could you at least get dressed before you leave? It's in a residential neighborhood. It's in the evening. Don't know what time. It's a female victim. The MO is different because here he's gone into the home and he has, I believe, raped a female victim. We're hearing assault, but we know that there's DNA.

And that makes me think that it's sperm. So was it a rape, Sheriff Giller? I'm not going to because, you know, there's still part of the active investigation. Other than what we've released, which are spot on a home invasion with an assault. We're not covering, you know, I'm not at liberty to go into any other details, but it certainly, you know, his actions there are similar, you know, to some of the MO that we have here. I'll just leave it at that.

Exactly. Okay. And I, of course, do not want to in any way impede the investigation or harm the integrity of the investigation. So when you finally, God willing, get to trial, you can be accused of spouting out information that's privy to the case. We want to give our investigators every opportunity to keep it to what needs to be kept out of the public for right now. But while we still share what we can to help us bring this person into custody. And again, you touched on the thing about traveling. We don't know whether he lives there and was visiting out here or whether he visits, you know, was visiting out there when he committed this crime, that crime in March and lives

out here or any combination thereof. He could live in Ohio and just have visited both places to commit these acts. So until we know who he is, we don't know what part of the country he is hanging his hat. No, Sheriff, I don't think he visited one of the two places just to commit the act. I think he's a predator. He happened to be in L.A. for whatever reason. I don't think he went there just to assault. I'll say assault because we don't know if it was a rape or a sodomy. We don't know if it was touch DNA somewhere in the home.

But we know there was a home invasion and there was an assault on a female victim in LA and that there's DNA. We know that in Bel Air, Maryland. It's a completely different scenario. different MO, modus operandi, method of operation. He's out on a hiking trail. He sees a lone female, and I'm assuming the female in L.A. was alone. Don't know her age.

But he sees a female alone, and he pounces. And he, I believe, raped Rachel Morin and murdered her. I know you're not going to tell me whether she was raped or not, but we're getting DNA from somewhere. Plus, we know that she was naked and lying on her back, or so we've been told. So straight to Dr. Monty Miller, Director, Forensic DNA Experts, LLC, Specialist in Sex Assaults and murder. Now, this is where he gets a lot of his training. Former forensic scientist for the Texas Department of Public Safety Crime Lab. Can I tell you how many thousands of DNA comparisons you do if you're at the crime lab? You can find them at

ForensicDNAExperts.com. Dr. Monty Miller, thank you for being with us. You're hearing the facts as I am. Tell me what you think happened in L.A. and what you think happened in Maryland. Well, I think that, first of all, I'd like to commend the police departments, both of them, for doing the DNA and getting it out quickly. Amen, brother. You're so right about that. Go ahead. Yeah, we have so many cases that sit there for a while and they're not able to identify the person quickly when the second crime happens because the first lab hasn't finished.

So yeah, I mean, the crime labs did a good job. Oh, you just gave me a horrible feeling. Remember Elisa Fletcher, the Memphis mom that was out jogging 4 a.m.? I think she had two children at home doing it all. And this perv grabs her, I believe rapes her, murders her. And he had actually committed another rape, but the DNA kid had been sitting on a shelf for like a year.

And if he had been apprehended in that rape, Eliza Fletcher would be alive today. Well, yeah, and that's exactly what they did great in this case. You know, they did the DNA. And so somebody didn't go at least unnoticed for a second crime across the country. So, but he has left his DNA. So that, you know, there's a good indication that there was some DNA that they knew came from him inside that house. And that, you know, oftentimes comes from a sexual assault because, you know, they have DNA that from sperm and they, that way they know that it's the perpetrator and not somebody else who visited that house.

So whatever it is, they're confident that they got his DNA from that house. It doesn't look like he's leaving in a hurry or that he's bloody or that he's injured. So it could have been touched DNA, but there's a good chance that was a sexual assault. And the same thing with, you know, the murder victim, Rachel Marin. You know, they might have gotten DNA off of the rock that was found that he used to hit her. But that might have blood and other things on it. So a sexual assault is oftentimes the best case to get a really good DNA profile because, you know, it came from the person who had sexual intercourse with the other person. So, you know, I think there's a good chance they're both sexual assaults if one of them is. You're hearing the voice of Dr. Monty Miller, director at ForensicDNAExperts.com.

Who was that jumping in? It was me, Sheriff. I was just going to say, you know, I hear a lot of speculation. Again, I just wish I was in more of a position to be able to speak freely. But I just, you know, I've heard how the scene looks and this and that. I just want to be clear that we haven't released any of those investigative details. And we know some of the information out there is accurate. We know some of it is not accurate.

And I wish I could clarify which is which, but you're 100% right. I mean, but DNA can be left in many different ways. And I am thankful that it was, you know, and again, I'd rather have this guy's name and face straight on, but I'm thankful that LA detectives out there took that case seriously. They did a good investigation, which included the collection of DNA at the scene and has put back a tie. So much of policing used to be just cops and robbers, but now without our civilian forensic experts and the people, the science part of this thing, we'd be nowhere in this investigation. And that is important to know. But again, I hate to be the guest who kind of has the facts in his head, but is not free to share them.

But that's unfortunately where I find myself as I listen to the other callers. You know, what's interesting, I'm taking from what you said, I'm interpreting that we got one of those facts wrong. Maybe it's the rock. Maybe she wasn't naked. Maybe she wasn't on her back. Maybe there wasn't a rape one of those facts wrong. Maybe it's the rock. Maybe she wasn't naked. Maybe she wasn't on her back. Maybe there wasn't a rape. We got something wrong, but we got something right.

But since the sheriff, Jeffrey Geller, refuses to play 21 questions with me, I'm going to go forward with what I do know. And you know what this is reminding me of, Jackie? Let's take a listen to our Cut 77. I think now it kind of leads us down the path that we believe this was a person that Rachel probably didn't know. Maybe you could say potentially a random act of violence. And we're hoping that the community now can watch that video and we also got still pictures that we're going to be putting out and that somebody can identify

him. We don't have any clue where he could be. We don't even know if he's still in Hartford County or in the state of Maryland, because obviously in March he was in California, and then here in August he was here in Maryland. So we don't know if he's still here or not. This is eerily reminiscent, for various reasons, of the Delphi murders of Little, Libby, and Abby. And I'll tell you why. Take a listen to our cut nine, AR Friends at People Magazine. Police have announced that a widely circulated photo of the main suspect in a double homicide of two Indiana teenagers

was taken by one of the victims before she was killed. On February 14th, the bodies of Liberty German and Abigail Williams were found one day after they were reported missing. At a press conference on Wednesday, police announced that Liberty not only took the photo of the male suspect, but she also recorded a video moments before her death. That includes audio of a man talking, although officials are unsure whether the voice belongs to the suspect. You will recall with Abby and Libby,

the two little girls murdered off the trestle bridge in Delphi, that there was wild speculation that there was a transient, someone that had come from out of town. We argued against that at the get-go because it's highly unlikely a transient would have known about that trestle bridge kind of tucked away out in the middle of nowhere. It didn't make sense. Now we're trying to figure out, does this guy caught on surveillance video on a ring camera, a doorbell cam in LA, does he live in Bel Air, Maryland now? Is he a transient? If he is a transient, how did he know about this hiking trail?

Now, is it true, Sheriff Giller, that the hiking trail butts up against apartments? Yes, the Ma and Pa hiking trail is actually working on a new section of it that's going to connect it and make it around eight. I think it's about eight miles long total when it's finished. So there's a north section and a south section. This actually happened on the south section, which is closer to the town of Bel Air. The county seat, very, very, very safe. In fact, I can't even remember when the last homicide in the town of Bel Air was. But it runs right behind the mall area, the big shopping area for the town. It runs from where she had parked her car,

where Rachel had parked her car, is right behind one of the local breweries. Always a lot of people there, a bunch of condos. And it goes down behind the mall and stuff and then finishes at the big fields where we actually have our county fair every year. It's a very, very popular, well-used, improved trail from an old railroad system, the Ma and Pa Railroad, that just gets a lot of activity. And to have something out there happen is just, you know, to have any crime out there happen is just so far outside the norm, much less something so horrific as Rachel's homicide. Sheriff, are you gathering video surveillance from the brewery and anyone else in those apartments and homes

that look onto the trail or onto the trailhead? Yeah, we have collected, investigators have collected all the video. Unfortunately, there is not video on the trail. It's actually the part of the trail. The trail is part of the Hartford County Parks and Rec system. They have announced, the parks and recs have announced that they're going to put cameras along the trail now, which would be great. But unfortunately, we didn't have them before. But we've also done solicitations out in the public social media and through our robocall system,

asking people, you know, for video footage around the time that Rachel went missing and up to where she was discovered, because we're hopeful as we pour through all this investigators pour through all this video footage and stuff that we have been able to gather that we'll get a better picture of this individual, of the suspect and perhaps a vehicle or something like that. But, you know, we do not have that at this moment. It's reminiscent of another case that I worked with the victim's families. The family of Jennifer Ewan, beautiful mom who would ride about a 50-mile bike trail multiple times a week. She was about 30-ish miles in on the Silver Comet Trail when she was attacked and murdered by Michael Ledford. Michael Ledford. Surrounding the trail, there were a number of vantage points where you could see onto the trail, including apartments.

And this guy, Ledford, had been scaring women and exposing himself and staring at them, surveilling them many times before Jennifer was murdered. So let me go to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I'm going to talk about why this trail. Was he living in those apartments? Was he living on the trail as a transient in the woods? Because I know for a fact that a group of law enforcement, LE, were out in the woods, you know, many feet off the trail, huddled together looking at something. Did they find evidence someone had been living out there, tenting? You know, Eric Rudolph, who was the Olympic bomber in Atlanta, then he bombed two abortion clinics. And by the way, the shrapnel hit my investigator. It was time. So one would go off

and then the next one would go off as soon as people came to investigate the first one. I don't know who this guy is. I don't know why he's in Bel Air, Maryland. Does he live there? Is he visiting? It's hard to believe. Is he a transient all the way from LA? But let's think about the MO. And another thing, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I had a gut feeling at the get-go. I didn't go after the boyfriend. There was just something about the fact that he had her children.

They were out looking for her. He called 911. It just didn't feel right, even though statistically it's the love object, but not in this case. So I'm glad we didn't put the nail in his coffin, right? That's right. Nancy, there's something about the brutality of the crime that tells me that sexual excitement and inflicting harm were a part of the MO. And in terms of why this trail, why near an apartment building, why near a brewery and everything you're describing, I have a theory that he is a serial killer in the making. Maybe he's already a serial killer and there are multiple victims in the pathway between the two crimes. But if he's a serial killer in the making, his choice of the mom-pa trail is going to be

influenced by the victim profile, like who he's fishing for, who is he on the hunt for. He's on the hunt for young women. If the first victim was a very young girl, you know, he could be a pedophile, that that would be a part of his multiple perversions. And also that he, women who are vulnerable, women who are on their own, are separated from family members or loved ones. I think you said on their phone. Did you say on their phone? On their own. On their own. And I think that Rachel may have had earbuds in. I don't know that yet, but we believe that may have happened. Go ahead. Well, unsuspecting victims, right? And also this guy is pretty brave.

I mean, the fact that he accosted a girl as a part of a home invasion. Tells me that he's desperate. He's desperate to kill. He's desperate to inflict cruelty while sexually accosting a victim. And this desperation may have driven him to the Ma and Pa trail where it's very secluded. There are places where he could hide. And there are easy weapons. He bashed her face in with a rock. So he didn't have to go and buy a gun.

He didn't have to go get a knife. He didn't have to do anything like that. He didn't have to put a big effort into it. All he had to do was hide along the trail and wait for Rachel Morin to come by. So that to me speaks of a certain type of desperation. Nancy, if I can, I did want to say that, again, we haven't released anything other than saying it was a violent attack as far as the specifics of how Rachel's life was taken. But you talked, the trail is very popular, goes by a lot of different condos, buildings, a couple of housing areas.

I don't know. I've said on some of the interviews I've done, my backyard actually hits a portion of the Ma and Pa Trail. So we've always considered it a very safe place. But, again, it has very secluded areas along it. So, you know, it's a place that they could hide. But this individual, I can tell you, although I won't go into the specifics about how her life was taken, other than the general saying it was very violent, this guy has an absolute disregard for human life. And I think he demonstrated that in what I know of L.A. and obviously in the homicide here. So, yeah, talk about is he a serial killer or is he becoming one? He certainly has no no care in the world for the value of a human life.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, joining me right now is a very well-known medical examiner. Joining us out of the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. I wanted him to hear the analysis before he weighs in. Lecturer, University of Florida Medical School, Forensic Medicine and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. He founded that. A true expert in his field. Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us. Dr. Gallagher, the sheriff is neither confirming nor denying that Rachel Moran was bludgeoned. We have also heard reports, not from him, that she was naked. A naked lady lying out on a trail tells me she was sex assaulted.

I'm curious how often you see bludgeoning cases. Now, I'm not saying that's her COD, cause of death, which I want to also ask you, even if she was bludgeoned, would you still be able to determine if she was, for instance, asphyxiated? Just because she's been hit in the head with the rock, if she was, and that's based on alleged eyewitness accounts. But the bludgeoning, the bludgeoning, I find that peculiar. And I wonder if the female victim in L.A. was beaten about the face. We don't know that. They seem very much opportunistic.

But what do you make of the bludgeoning? And can you get a different cause of death? Dr. Gallagher? Good points, Nancy. Typically, the bludgeoning would be if the offender needs the victim to become unresponsive very quickly. You know, if a strangulation can take about three or four minutes to complete and to be on this popular trail for three or four minutes strangling somebody, you know, you would definitely get a lot of attention. But the bludgeoning, and I'm going to assume here possible skull fractures or an injury

that would incapacitate the person instantaneously would be more advantageous, you know, to his MO, to sexually offending on the victim, you know, and then leaving very quickly before other people can come by and identify the same. So when we do the autopsy, these are things that we look for. We look for the skull fractures, the brain injuries, the internal bleeding that is representative of the blunt force trauma. We also have to look at the neck area, which is the most common area for strangulation, and look at the muscles, look at the windpipe, look at the blood vessels that are in there and see if they have linear patterns of hemorrhage or linear patterns of damage on them, which would

be representative of a strangulation. But we need to keep in mind that strangulation does take three, possibly four minutes to complete, and it certainly would expose them for a long time on the trail. So bludgeoning would render the person unconscious instantaneously, and then the offender would be able to enact his MO. Wow. Well, Nancy, on that trail. That was a lot of information. Is this Sheriff Gaylor? No, this is Vince.

Go ahead, Vincent. On Saturday, I had the opportunity to walk that trail. They had a 5K in honor of Rachel. I actually walked with her sister, Rebecca. It was part of my story for the day, but as the ex-cop and private investigator, there were parts of the trail where I was literally thinking, wow, he could have lied in wait right here. It's very secluded, could have done what he had to do. He actually could have taken three or four minutes to do

whatever he had to do with Rachel because there were parts of that trail, Nancy, during that 5k, where I was just thinking, man, he could have come from here. It backs up to a road at certain parts. He could have parked the car. It goes by a farmer's market. He could have parked across the street. I mean, it's very secluded over in that area. So there are plenty of opportunities for him to have done something there. But I want to go back to something you said earlier, Nancy, about Delphi and the guy likely not knowing the trail. I'll be honest, I've been living in the Baltimore area for almost a year. I had never heard of the Ma and Pa trail until two weeks ago when Rachel went missing and her body was found. So the investigator in me tells me this guy knew about this trail because when I think of Los Angeles, and don't get offended by this, Sheriff Gaylor, when I think of Los Angeles and I think of Maryland, I don't think Hartford County. Most people think Baltimore, Annapolis, Aberdeen.

So that tells me this guy may have known the area and known where that trail was. I agree with you 100%, Vince. This is not, you know, we're a quiet community about 30 minutes north of Baltimore and, you know, not known for low crime and a safe community. So it's not generally where we have stuff like this, but not generally. If you're going around the country, you kind of have to explain where it is in relation to Baltimore because people just don't know where we're located. You know, it's interesting, Sheriff Geller. Everybody jump in. Jessica Garth, this is right up your alley.

In the L.A. case where we get, we believe, the killer's DNA, I'm looking at the video over and over and over. Somebody follows him to the door and they shut the door behind him. I'm not sure who that is, but it looks like a female hand shutting the door behind him. That victim lived. This victim did not. I'm curious about the differences in the attacks, the method of operation, Sheriff Geller. What do you make of it? No, again, it's something that a lot of people have brought to our attention that we know is there. We know that there's an arm there, that somebody closes the door behind the suspect leaving. And again, it's not what you would expect, not what a seasoned police officer

would expect someone leaving the scene of a crime, you know, the home invasion and an assault, to be casually walking out with his clothes tucked under his arm, you know, and the door being shut behind him. But, you know, our investigators continue to work the case hard to try to make sense of what doesn't make sense by appearances. And hopefully, you know, the investigation will explain all of those things out in time. But the main thing that's needed at this point is figuring out who this guy is. Is that victim a minor? Was she a minor at the time of the attack, Sheriff, in L.A.? Yes. So, you know, think about that. Attacking a minor, I could easily see a minor not really knowing what to do after a rape or a sex assault or an ag assault.

And walking to the door and shutting it in complete astoundment and confusion. What about it, Jessica Garth? There's a big difference in a grown lady like Rachel Morin, who's 37, and a girl, a minor girl that's attacked. 100% agree. I mean, when I saw that video and I saw that he had been essentially walked out of the house, a few things occurred to me. And, of course, it's speculation. But, number one, if this is a minor victim, which I am assuming since her name hasn't been released, and it was in her own home, I mean, where is she going to run to for safety? She's in the safest place that she knows. So I think at some point, it's just a matter of staying alive in that situation. If this is a

grown man in her home, she's not going to fight back. She's not going to create a fuss. She's going to get out of the situation as safely as she can. So, you know, if he is making moves to leave the home or if she said something like, oh, my parents are going to come home. You have to get out of here and he's leaving. She's just going to let him leave and she's going to close that door and I'm sure lock it immediately behind him. And the second thing I thought was that even if it were a grown woman, you know, playing along or going along with somebody who is assaulting you is one method to survive a violent attack like this. You're right. Rachel Morin may have fought back and this young girl didn't or couldn't. Dr. Monty Miller joining us are forensic DNA experts. What's your analysis of what we know right now?

Well, I think that, you know, we have the guy's DNA. And so we're going to be able to identify the guy at some point, like, like, you know, other people have mentioned, he's probably going to turn out to be a serial killer or something similar, or certainly has no problem killing people and raping people and having, you know, any kind of issues. So the guy's going to continue to do these things. We're going to continue to find his DNA until we find out who he is, until we identify him and put him in jail. I'm curious to find out if his DNA pops up anywhere else in the country or just along this 1-888-540-8477. Repeat, 1-888-540-8477. We want justice not only for Mama Five, Rachel Morin, but for her children that have now been split up.

Their family has been broken apart forever. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.