Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Holy Toledo: Ohio dad, son use Bible in rape defense

Episode Date: January 23, 2017

A Toledo, Ohio, man and his son want to quote biblical scriptures in their defense against charges they raped two children, including the older man's stepdaughter. The judge will allow the duo to represent themselves with lawyers and to have the Bible at the defense table. However, Timothy and Esten Ciboro won't let them use it when questioning the children testifying abut the alleged sex abuse. Nancy Grace & Alan Duke discuss the case. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Timothy Saboro's 13-year-old stepdaughter escaped from the Saboro's Noble Street home after being shackled on and off to a beam in the basement. The pair was indicted for sexually abusing her. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Timothy Saboro, a former Toledo firefighter, and his son, Esten, will be their own lawyers when they go on trial. In a serious criminal case, you're at a tremendous disadvantage if you try to represent yourself. They asked the judge today to make sure they had access to what they call the only law

book that truly matters, the Bible. Both of them told Judge Linda Jennings they wanted to properly quote scripture as needed. They said it was vital to their defense. The two young victims in the Saboro's case will be on the witness stand, possibly questioned by their alleged accuser. Two adult men accused of imprisoning and abusing a girl. They're in court, but they say they are going to use the Bible to defend themselves. They asked the judge for a Bible. I think it's a little too late for that. Hello, everybody. Nancy Grace here with Crime Stories. And of course, I'm talking about the father and son duo out of Ohio accused of keeping a girl, a young teen girl

whose mother, if you can call her that, left her with the uncle in about 2012, and she has been being sexually abused ever since. They locked the girl and imprisoned her in the basement, and she is there for over a year. This abuse has been going on since 2012, and now this father-son duo have the gall to ask for the Bible to use that as a defense in court. And you are going to love this quote. They say the Titanic was built by professionals, but amateurs built the ark. You know what? Good luck with that. Joining me right now is Alan Duke, investigative reporter. Have you seen these two? I mean, looking at them in court, they look like dumb and dumber. That was my first thought. It looks like from central casting of two really dumb guys.

Why do you always say, when I say something, you go, well, I already thought of that. But you didn't say it. You said that was your first thought. You had already thought they looked like dumb and dumber. All right, fine. Go ahead and take credit again. They do, though. And the judge is just looking at them. The shot is the two of them standing there staring at each other like idgits. The judge looking at them quizzically as they demand a

Bible. Now, I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said one of his most famous quotes, only a fool has himself for a lawyer. And these two are a double of that. So what are the facts surrounding this case, Alan? Well, it started back in September when this 13-year-old girl said, well, she was seen wandering on the streets. And this woman saw her and said, looked like to run away. She called, she brought the girl in and called the police and the girl started telling her story. She's just 13 now.

She's 13 now. And she was left with him in 2012. Yes. Her mother abandoned her there, which means, uh, so she's 13 now and she was left there five years ago. That places her at eight years old.

And according to reports, the abuse started when she's eight. Eight! According to the report that I read, the mother left them with the stepdad so she could go to Las Vegas. They locked her in the basement if she failed to obey their quote rules. You know, I frankly think the mother needs to be indicted too. I was wondering about that. I figured you would think that. Of course I do. You leave your children in this unstable environment. What do you think is going to happen? Nothing good. And I guarantee you, they're not going to find anything in the Bible, Old or New Testament, contents, index, title page, that's going to help them out of this.

Nothing. I would think that actually the Bible would condemn what they did rather than defend it. Have you had any experience with people representing themselves in a situation similar to this on a serious charge? Yes, yes. And of course, I couldn't have been happier than when they insist that they're going to represent themselves. Do you remember Colin Ferguson, the shooter? Certainly. Yeah. I remember covering his trial. Colin Ferguson was a killer that

represented himself at trial. And when one of the victims that lived pointed him out in court, he was standing at the lectern representing himself and questioning the witness. When the witness would try to point at him as being the perpetrator, he would duck down behind the lectern. I bet that made a good impression on the jury, huh? He was the guy, the subway shooter who said he was defending himself. Yes, yes, yes. So here we've got these two. The first thing I would imagine a hired lawyer would do would make a motion for severance so they would not be tried together. Although, unless it's a death penalty case or there are interlocking statements, which means one of them gives a statement and points the finger at the other

and vice versa, unless you've got a situation like that, there's really no legal reason it has to be severed. I guess they're going to go to trial wearing their prison orange jumpsuits with chains around their waist. Well, each court appearance has been that way. Well, if their, quote, lawyer, quote, doesn't make a motion for them to wear street clothes, they're going to look like this in front of the jury, unless the judge takes pity on them and just says, hey, you know what? I always kept a spare suit and an assortment of clothes for defendants that did not have street clothes to wear in front of a jury. Kept them in my office. And don't think I felt sympathy for the defendants. That's just so the day of trial, they couldn't jump up and say they wanted a delay. I go, oh, no, no, no.

I've got clothes for you. Don't worry about that. They claim that they are going to use, quote, God's holy word to ask questions, questions that we believe are absolutely vital to our case. You know what's concerning me about this? It's not their constitutional privileges, Alan, but you know, under our Constitution, they have a right to cross-examine state's witnesses, which will mean the girl. So she is going to be questioned by her alleged rapists. What more do you know about these two? What happened? She told her story and said that she, for about four years, had been, was being,

she said, being punished for bedwetting. And I would be wetting my pants in my bed I'm certain if I lived with these guys as a kid they were punishing her keeping her in the basement and then they were raping her over a several year period and that she finally escaped because the two guys the stepdad and I guess stepbrother went for a jog in the park and she found a spare key to the handcuffs and escaped. So they were making her wear handcuffs, and she was described as unclean and traumatized by witnesses and was helped by two janitors from the Port Authority building about a mile from the kidnap home. She was told to obey according to sources a 50 point system and that if she lost those 50 points she would be taken to the basement and handcuffed that had

been happening for about a year she told police that she was forced to eat spoiled food and use a bucket full of ammonia as her commode. I mean, these two adult men were making her live worse than an animal. Like you said, she hasn't seen her mother since mommy went to Vegas in 2012. She says she didn't know why her mom left her or why she didn't come back. Can you even imagine? This child, I hope, is getting some serious therapy. She's in foster care now with her two other siblings. She said they were being home-schooled. I can imagine what that is, home-schooled. It said that the Facebook pages of the father and son were filled with ramblings about Satan. I mean, it just calls me that so many evildoers, there's no other way to put it. I know that sounds draconian and throwback to call them evildoers, but they are.

They use some sort of crazy mixed up religion to buttress what they're doing. So they're picking the jury today. And what kind of juror would you choose as a prosecutor to watch this? Anybody. I'd pick the first 12 that got in the box. You know, funny story about that. I remember one time when a defense lawyer was kind of like swaggering around the courtroom and I was a brand new prosecutor. I'd so far only done, I guess, attempted shopliftings and a couple of thefts. I had one of my first serious felonies. I was, you know, concerned. I had been working night and day on it. I was starting void dire, jury selection, and the defense attorney was a braggart. I can remember him right now. And he was walking, swaggering around the courtroom. He announced

very loudly in front of the jury pool of about 100 people, you know what? I'm so confident about my case. I'll take the first 12. And I'm like, oh, crap. What can I do? So I said, I bammed my fist on the table and went, me too. I'll take the first 12.

And, you know, I felt like I had to. I couldn't say I doubted the jury pool. So, dadgummit, we took the first 12. Well, I got a conviction. So, what I'm saying is, that was with no voir dire, no questions, no nothing. I didn't know one thing about them except the order in which they came into the courtroom. This case is so horrible. I can't imagine anyone would be a, quote, bad juror for the state. One of these guys was a firefighter, but the fire chief, Santiago, remembered him as, quote, not being a very good employee. I can just only imagine what kind of firefighter he was. You mean that one of these Saboros? Yeah, they used to be a firefighter. Used to be. The Timothy, Timothy Saboro was once a

firefighter until 2004. And catch this, he filed a harassment and wrongful dismissal against the city. After he was fired, he was fired for demanding a discount on ice cream at an ice cream stand. He got fired. So this is who we're looking at. Now, the jury won't ever know what all we're talking about. All this will be kept from the jury. So the use of the Bible, have you ever had a defendant try to use a Bible in court? How do you do that? I don't remember a defendant ever using a Bible, but I sure did. Hey, hey, hey, don't start with me about the Bible. I don't think I ever tried a single case without a Bible with me. And this was long past the time when you had to swear somebody in with their hand on the Bible. But I still took my Bible up there for them to swear

on it. If they didn't want to, they didn't have to. And I've been in positions where I was sworn in, there was no Bible. So I would put my hand over my heart and swear in court. But you know, that's just the state of affairs as it is now. But you're doing right. I had a Bible with me, but I don't remember a defendant using one. Well, these characters, this dad and his son, are only allowed to bring the Bible to court and have it with them. The judge overruled any of their efforts to quote from the Bible and to question witnesses using quotes from the Bible or references. Question witnesses. Well, I would say that that is not necessarily due to it being the Bible, but as to being irrelevant. I mean, when you put a witness up on the stand and go, can you quote Corinthians 13? I don't think that that would be relevant. And plus, it seems

like a ploy on their part. I just can't wait for them to blurt out that professionals built the Titanic, but amateurs built the ark. You know what? I pray that that's in their opening statement. What if they come out with something like, spare the rod, spoil the child. We were just disciplining this girl because she was not following the rules. And now she's lying to us about our biblical discipline of her. I would welcome that because I hardly think statutory rape is equated to discipline, can possibly be equated to disciplines. I doubt that very seriously. to justify what they have done since 2012 would probably, I mean, I put money on it and I'm not a betting person, will probably irritate any religious person of any sort in the jury pool. It just, you know, it's bad enough what they did, but then to try to hide behind the Bible,

that's even worse. Esten Saburo, he's the son, he's 28. He is quoted as telling the judge, the only book that truly matters is the Bible. He says, there's a great deal of strategy in Scripture, and I use those strategies in everything I do. It's a vital part of everything I do. That's what he told the judge in court in arguing for the ability to use the Bible. Well, I predict they'll have plenty of time to think about their trial strategy behind bars. That's my prediction on this one. And now let's see, they're charged with so many felonies, but I'm sure they're looking at at least a sentence of 20 years behind bars. Now, what I'm hoping now.

40 years, according to what I've seen. At least, because here's my concern. If the judge runs these concurrent or a sentencing on each one to run at the same time, like, okay, there's kidnapping. Let's just, for argument's sake, say that's 20 years, although I think it's up to 40 to life. And then you've got 20 on statutory rape. Some

judges would run those consecutively, one after the other. Some would run them concurrently or at the same time. That's what I don't want. What I think is there, I hate to count my chickens before they're hatched, but I'm betting there's going to be a conviction. So if there is, I say they'll have plenty of time to study the Bible behind bars. I don't think the trial will last very long. I can't imagine how it would, except for the constant interruptions, but I don't think it'll take a lot of witnesses. No, but, well, I don't think it will take very long, but you're going to have to handle the child witnesses with kid gloves, and there's going to be a lot of outbursts. They may even end up in a mistrial, although these two won't have the

sense to ask for a mistrial. And on the other hand, Alan, if you're the one that causes the outburst, you can't ask for a mistrial based on the outburst. you can't ask for a mistrial based on the outburst. You can't ask for a mistrial based on something you did in court. That's the law. What's interesting, one of these guys, the son, Esten, is now only 28, which means he started this behavior five years ago at 23. He's got a long, long road to hoe ahead of him after he's convicted. You know, another law scholar, a legal scholar may have used the insanity defense on these two. Not that I think

it's true, of course, but that could have been a backup defense for them. I'm not sure it's insanity. I think it would be argued that it's not. I think it's just ignorance and stupidity without the insanity and evil. Well, as you know, ignorance of the law is no defense. But oh, you finally have broken down. I've worn you down. You finally admit that it's evil. Oh, it is evil. It is to do this to this child. And this is just what we're hearing. We don't know everything that was done to this child. And can you imagine what the other children were going through that may have known what was happening? wonder, did nobody miss her? She's been in the basement locked in for a year. Nobody noticed she wasn't around. I wonder if she was enrolled at any time in school. They say that they were quote homeschooling them, but you can only homeschool children when you go through the

proper channels. You can't just take your kid out of school and not do any paperwork or updates on their progress. That's the way homeschooling, I think, is supposed to work, isn't it? Well, I doubt if they actually registered them for homeschooling. So there was no district to monitor that. It fell through the cracks, if you will. Probably a huge canyon it fell through. Why do they always say that about children? It's always a child that falls through the cracks. Always. What else do you know about these two or about this case, Alan?

Jury selection today. The trial, we'll be watching it. I wish it was televised. I really would like to watch this. And I'm going to check and see if anybody's going to do a video feed out of this because I would like to see video of these characters in court.

It's going to be very sad. Well, we'll have the latest on CrimeOnline.com. And Nancy, we now have the system set up to where listeners to the podcast can call in and leave voicemail messages with questions. You can call in and it's a very easy number to remember. I really miss talking to our listeners. It reminds me of when I would strike juries, you know, with 100 citizens at a time and question witnesses and talk to them prior to court. And I loved taking calls on Larry King when I got to guest host for him. That led me to take calls on Court TV and for many, many years on HLN. So I'm really looking forward to this. Give me the number again, please. It's 909-49-CRIME.

That's 909-49-27463. Everyone, Nancy Grace signing off. Crime Stories Today. And I want to thank you for being with us. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.