Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Horrific child abusers VIDEO TORTURE of tots

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

Nancy Grace and her team of experts take a look at three cases of horrific child abuse: Gabriel Fernandez, James "Alex" Hurley, and Eduardo Posso. These children end up dead after suffering months of abuse.Joining Nancy Grace today: Ernie Allan - Allen Global Consulting, Former President/CEO International and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children John Cardillo - Host America Talks on Newsmax TV, Former NYPD Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta, Georgia Levi Page - Investigative reporter CrimeOnline  Tip Line: 1-800- 4 A CHILD, 1-800-422-4453 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. We have another pandemic, another epidemic to deal with right here in our own backyard. Child abuse, horrific child abuse, even cases where parents video and photo the abuse of their child. Won't you help us stop the epidemic of child abuse in our country. Today, stories of children horribly abused and how justice unfolds.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Child abuse across our country. Every day I hear about a new and horrific case, and I wonder, will it ever stop? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us on Fox Nation and Sirius 111XM, the Triumph Channel. You know, all the years I prosecuted violent crimes, whenever I got a case regarding child abuse, it was already a felony. And the more I would investigate it, the more I would discover it had been going on for years.

So how do you stop that? And how does it go on with no one saying a word? First, I want to turn to the case of Gabriel. Take a listen to our friends at CBS2 LA. This is Christy Fajardo. In the hours before his death, Gabriel lay in an emergency room. His skull fractured. He'd been burned, apparently tied up. He was missing skin. He had BB pellets lodged in his lung and scrotum. Even the soles of his feet were bruised and swollen. A physician in the emergency room said someone has pulled out this child's teeth? Mary was not the social worker who investigated the reports of abuse, including the complaints from Gabriel's own school. That social worker was also fired. Mary got the case after, when the family was referred to therapy.

She says she never saw anything troubling, but on one occasion, Mary spotted a bruise under Gabriel's eye and a BB pellet in his chest. I asked them about it. And the explanation from Gabriel, brother and sister and mom, her story was that some little kid in the apartment complex's mom got him a BB gun and he was shooting everything and he, you know, turned around and shot Gabriel. Therapy. Therapy. My rear end, when you have this type of physical abuse going on on a little child

and defax department family children services sends them to therapy uh-uh no what a travesty with me an all-star panel joining me john cardillo former nyp, host of America Talks on Newsmax TV, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. With me, special guest, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, Atlanta, Georgia. And boy, do I need a shrink. And joining us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111, a longtime colleague and, dare I say, friend, Ernie Allen, who ran the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the former president and CEO, for I know it had to be 20 years, now at Allen Global Consulting. Levi Page with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

Levi, this is a yes, no. Pretend you're on cross-exam. Yes, no. Did I hear this correctly, that they were sent to therapy? Yes. Okay. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Arnold, I know that you believe counseling and psychiatry, psychology, the time a child is beaten and has a BB in his scrotum, I think that's

the time somebody needs to go to jail. The time for talk is over, Dr. Angela. My mind is open. Please dissuade me. Well, I actually agree with you, Nancy. I feel like perhaps in this case, maybe it was a form of passing the buck. Maybe they just wanted somebody else to take care of this, and they used that as a last resort. If they were going to have some sort of therapy, it needed to happen a long time ago. And even though I know that family preservation is a very important thing, they should have taken the child out of the home. Man, it would be a cold day in H-E-double-L. I don't know if you know that I gave up cursing when I had the twins. I would try to preserve this family.

I think two major components of this family need to be not in the jail but under the jail. I'm talking about mommy and daddy. To Ernie Allen joining me, former president and CEO, International and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. You know, when I dealt with NICMA, I was usually working on a missing child, Ernie, but it's also missing and exploited. And when I hear the injuries to little Gabriel, I almost forced Jackie to stop running the sound because I sometimes just can't take it, Ernie.

I don't know how you dealt with it for all those years and still do. Nancy, this remains a huge problem. 7.8 million children were reported last year involving maltreatment cases, 678,000 confirmed victims, of which 1,800 of those children were killed. Ernie, Ernie, Ernie, wait a minute. You got me drinking from the fire hydrant. Would you give me those numbers again? Because I'm going to quote you.

Go ahead. One more time, please. This is based on HHS child maltreatment numbers, 4.3 million referrals involving 7.8 million children, of which 678,000 were confirmed victims with nearly 1,800 fatalities. So cases like Gabriel's are just one of thousands in this country. The system is overwhelmed. Social workers, child protective services workers are doing heroic things, but the caseloads are too large. They're not manageable, and we're losing this battle. Ernie, I thought you may have some good news for me, but you know what, Ernie Allen? I'd rather hear it. I'd rather hear the truth than hear some airbrush edited version

of what the truth is. We are losing the battle. And I remember back to Dr. Angela Arnold, new to us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111, a renowned psychiatrist. Dr. Angela, I remember one case in particular, so many of them, but one in particular, I had to leave the courtroom. And I remember that because that never happened to me in 10 years of putting felonies in front of juries. Now, I might get sick to my stomach or not be able to eat during the lunch break. But it was very rare. One of two occasions in 10 years, I had to ask for a recess. I had a little girl, she was 23 months old and she had been beaten into a vegetative state. She would never come out of it, Dr. Angela. And just because she was a child, a lot of the records and the medical

records, especially because of HIPAA, were kept secret from me. But we were going to trial. And of course, Grady, the hospital, got them over there the morning of trial when I'd been trying to get them for a month. But the morning of trial, and I got them them and the defense decided on a bench trial in front of just the judge and I was thumbing through the medical records because I just managed to get them and I saw where this little 23 month old little girl had been raped in a vegetative state and I got so overwhelmed I had to leave the courtroom, get myself together, get back in there, try the case. You'll be happy to know who's convicted. But that afternoon, Dr. Angela, I had to pull the car off the ride. I remember it was raining on the way home because

I felt I couldn't take it anymore. And Ernie's right, Dr. Angela Arnold, we are losing the battle. And I don't understand why. I believe that part. Angela Arnold. We are losing the battle, and I don't understand why. I believe that part of the reason that we are losing the battle, Nancy, is because this problem starts so much earlier than when these abused children are found. It goes back so far in these people's history. And I'm not making an excuse for them, but they've been abused. They live in poverty. Often the mother of Gabriel, they found her to be intellectually disadvantaged.

So she wasn't the brightest bulb on the block, okay? I don't know, Dr. Angela Arnold. It kind of sounds like you're making an excuse. Oh, my stars. I'm looking at a picture of Gabriel right now. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, God rest his little soul. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I want you to take a listen now to CBS 2 LA reporter Amy Johnson.

Gabriel had unconditional love for you, and you took advantage of that, knowing he will never turn you in. But Gabriel's teacher, Jennifer Garcia, did report the abuse to a hotline. However, social workers left Gabriel in the abuse to a hotline. However, social workers left Gabriel in the home where he was tortured and starved and eventually beaten to death by Aguirre and Fernandez. I know I'm not alone in hoping that they experience the same abuse in their lifetime and worse. They are evil people for what they did. She described Gabriel as a kind and helpful boy. She no longer uses his student number. I don't assign number 28 to another student because I feel it's only his number now.

And it's a way for me to honor him in my classroom. Five years after the young boy's death, justice. I'm just doing my job. That's it. Deputy D.A. John Hatami, a father of two young children, was emotional. I think Gables affected everybody, including me. You were hearing L.A. reporter Amy Johnson, and you were also hearing his teacher,

and I appreciate the sentiment of her retiring his number because she felt so strong when she wanted to do something. But isn't it the law to John Cardillo, former NYPD host of America Talks on Newsmax TV? John Cardillo, the law is that teachers must immediately report even if they suspect child abuse, correct? Uh-huh. I can't quite hear you, but I think you said uh-huh. Take a listen now to L.A. reporter at CBS2. The judge told that couple that he hopes that they wake up at night

and are tortured by thoughts of what they've done to this young boy. This is a case that has really touched so many because of the sheer brutality of the torture and abuse of this young boy by the two people who should have been taking care of him. THE BUSINESS. THE BUSINESS WAS A CONDUCT OF ABUSE TO THIS YOUNG BOY BY THE TWO PEOPLE WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKING CARE OF HIM. THE CONDUCT WAS HORRENDOUS, INHUMANE AND NOTHING SHORT OF EVIL. AFTER CALLING THIS THE WORST

CASE OF ABUSE HE HAS SEEN IN HIS 20 YEARS ON THE BENCH, JUDGE GEORGE LAMELI SENTENCED ISARO AGUERRE TO DEATH FOR TORTURING AND MURDERING 8-YEAR- OLD GABRIEL FERNANDEZ. HIS GIRLFRIEND, THE BOY'S MOTHER, PEARL FERNANDEZ,

RECEIVED LIFE IN PRISON FOR HER ROLE. IT IS UNIMAGINABLE THE PANTS THAT HE'S PUT ON HIS BODY. HE'S BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THE BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME. HE'S BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THE BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME.

HE'S BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THE BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME. HE'S BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THE BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME. eight-year-old Gabriel Fernandez. His girlfriend, the boy's mother, Pearl Fernandez, received life in prison for her role. It is unimaginable the pain that this child probably endured. Gabriel had a cracked skull, broken ribs, burns, and BB pellets lodged in his body. I want to say I'm sorry to my family for what I did. I want to say I'm sorry for this one happened. I wish we would have died. Guys, I cut it there because I didn't I wish you the best of luck. You know, when I prosecute cases, I have to listen and I have to relay every horrible detail to a jury. And it's easy for us to just say, hey, Jackie, stop. I don't want to hear that anymore. But the truth is we cannot turn away and pretend it's not happening, Ernie, or it will keep happening.

It is happening. It's happening too frequently. It's happening in many cases with greater and greater severity. And the system is overwhelmed. That social worker in Gabriel's case had 280 cases she was trying to manage, and Pearl, the mother, was manipulative. She basically had an explanation for everything. I'm not defending the social workers, but the system has got to improve, and we've got to link social services more with law enforcement and health care and therapists and others. There has to be a team approach to protect these children. Gabriel Fernandez, may he rest in As you see, the abuse went on well, well, over at least two years.

For two years. You want to tell me, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, that nobody knew, no family member, no relative, no neighbor, nobody knew, no teacher noticed a bruise, nothing? It's an impossibility, Nancy. No right-thinking person could ignore this. This child had what we commonly refer to as raccoon eyes, which means that he had an indwelling fracture in his skull

that more than likely had been there for some time, and it was further exacerbated by these just powerful strikes that he had been sustaining. If folks at home will literally just kind of run their hand above their right ear to what's referred to as the parietal area of their skull, he actually had a depressed skull fracture up there that they described with crepitus. And what that means is if you think of peanut brittle, that's literally fractured and covered with skin. That's what his skull felt like, Nancy. He had signs of torture. He had been restrained by the ankles. He had

bruises all over the extent of the surface of his body. And one of the ways that we learn to try to figure out how long something has been going on is to analyze the bruising. And the nurses at the hospital were actually talking about, and they were in tears, they were talking about how they could see bruises that were resolving. That means, you know, when they turn yellow and green and that sort of thing, and yet there were fresh bruising. So he was being hammered upon day after day after day. You know what, Nancy? There was so much blood evidence at the scene that the crime scene investigators actually ran out of markers at the scene in order to annotate the various bloodstains that were all over that house. That's how bad this was.

You know, what hurts me so much is that I know this wasn't a one-time incident like Joe Scott Morgan is describing for us, that this child's life, his everyday life, he woke up in fear. He was in fear all day. He was in fear when he had come home from school because he knew he was going to be tortured and beaten. And when I look at his face, I see my son's face. I see my daughter's face. We are talking about the epidemic in our country of child abuse. And now I want you to go to another child and listen to our friends at KURL8. This is Rachel Louise Just.

Torture, a word used more than once by Gallatin County Associate Attorney Bjorn Boyer. I believe the systematic torture and beatings that were perpetrated on the victim in this case that led to his death. The preliminary report was blunt force trauma to the back of James' head. Court documents reveal a horrific timeline. Detectives found Hurley to be covered with injuries, having lived with Batts and Sasser for about two years. After Hurley's father passed away in 2018. His mother tried to call with documents showing Bats blocked her from reaching him. Bats friend says there was a breaking point. I knew something went wrong and I encouraged her repeatedly to get him some help and to have him put somewhere. And she just really expressed that she just did not like him. Investigators found places in the home where large amounts of blood were cleaned with vinegar. Then they found videos. She's on a lot of the videos that show the torture to this young boy.

She's in the videos seen strangling the boy. What kind of person only abuses a child but takes a video of it? That was actually our friends at KBZK, Cody Boyer speaking, and the Gallatin County Assistant Attorney. Call the abuse systematic torture. That was Bjorn Boyer speaking with the DA's office. Systematic torture. I'm going to go back to a special guest joining us today, in addition to Ernie Allen, former president and CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children,

to psychiatrists in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold. Dr. Arnold, you know, I take videos of, okay, the other day I had forced the children to cotillion. And it was the big ball, I guess you might want to call it. It was at the school. And it was ladies' choice. The girls picked who they wanted to dance. And, of course, Lucy made a beeline for her own brother. And I had, you know, sneakily volunteered to be a chaperone so I could see the whole thing because the parents

weren't allowed in until the last 15 minutes. And I saw her do that and I ran over there, of course embarrassing them both, busting up in there and took a video of them dancing the swing. That was the highlight of my weekend, you know, getting a video of them all dressed up doing the swing. These people took a video of abuse. Now, I'm trying to get my mind around that. If the mom was doing it for probative purposes, she never did anything with the video. Other people were begging her to go to law enforcement. What psyche is it that videos abuse, Dr. Angela?

Well, and then you have to also, what did they do with the video after that? Did they re-watch it? This is one of the most horrific things I've ever heard. I can't even imagine doing this to a child much less like you said, taking a video of it. I want to give you the child abuse hotline, 800-422-4453. Repeat, 800-422-4453. Don't do what these people did and say to the mom, you should really report this BS. You report it. You know, Joe Scott, the other night, we took the twins out from Mexican, and we were sitting there, and I heard a mom yell. And I turned around to look, and she was yelling. She had three boys, and one could not have been over two, and was sitting right by the table on the floor playing. It was doing nothing wrong.

It was outdoor seating, very laid back. and was sitting right by the table on the floor playing. He was doing nothing wrong. It was outdoor seating, very laid back. And I gave her, of course, the evil eye. And she looked at me, and then she looked down really quickly. Well, a few minutes later, I heard the dad yell. I mean, in a mean way. And I turned around. I thought he was going to hit the child. And I was so proud of my husband.

That big lug, he actually said something right there from his seat. He actually yelled it over at the family about yelling at their children. And, you know, later Lucy said, Mom, did you hear Dad yell out in the restaurant? I said, yes, I did. And I'm so proud of him. And by the way, I got their tag number and I plan on doing my own little investigation of them. But Joe Scott, people see abuse all the time and they do nothing. they absolutely don't nancy they're they're afraid to engage with folks even you know even at the cost of of a child's well welfare and well-being uh and they they refuse to interject themselves into this and this has been an ongoing problem

in our society for years now it It's just, you know, we can go all the way back to the sixties, you know, that, that infamous night, you know, when all of the people in New York, you know, kind of gathered around that one neighborhood and watched that woman being beaten to death. And that was the first time in history, you know, where we heard that. And it's just this ongoing thing where people will not interject themselves into a conversation or into a problem. I got to tell you, if David shouted at me, he'd have my attention. You're right. He is a big lug, but it's a dangerous situation that we're in.

And particularly, you know, when we think about defects and them not fully being engaged in the lives of these children, they're the stopgap. They're that firewall that is supposed to protect. And the system is absolutely positively broken. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally

hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't be a victim. You can pre-order now. Go to crimeonline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Everybody, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. The epidemic of child abuse goes on in our country. We can put a man on the moon. We can have robotics going up and down the aisles at Amazon warehouses. We can have robots that take care of you when you're sick,

but we can't stop child abuse. I'm now talking about a little boy named James Hurley. Listen to our friends at KURL8, Rachel Louise Just. Our court documents say that Hurley's grandparents and his 14-year-old uncle regularly abused the boy, forcing him to stand and sit in strenuous positions for long periods of time, with the uncle even making a wooden paddle to hit him. And investigators say many of these incidents were recorded on cell phone video and shared in text messages. Batts, the boy's grandmother, told investigators the 14-year-old uncle and the boy got into a, quote, bloodbath fight in late January. On the morning of

she found the boy dead. E Hurley died as a result of to the head. Gallatin Count Gutkin said in his 27 yea He's never seen a case li It's personal to all of u the worst, worst type of with. And um guess, you know, you just try and

find some justice for Alex. That's exactly what our job is. You are hearing Sheriff Brian Gutkin speaking straight out to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. Levi, tell me about this little boy, James Hurley. So Nancy, he's 12 years old, and he was found dead in his grandparents' home where he was living, and he was beaten to death, and detectives were suspicious. They noted that he had wounds and contusions all over his body, and then they got search warrants for the video cell phone belonging to his grandparents. And his own grandmother, 48-year-old Patricia Batts, had a video, multiple videos, where this 12-year-old little boy was being beaten repeatedly in the home. And this is what's disturbing, Nancy.

Investigators say that the family beat him with makeshift objects. They took food away from him. They strangled him. And the people that are charged in his death are his grandparents, Patricia Batts, James Sasser Jr., his grandfather, and his 14-year-old uncle, who's a juvenile who's being charged as an adult, James Sasser III. And there is an 18-year-old uncle who's a juvenile who's being charged as an adult, James Sasser III. And there is an 18-year-old friend of the family named Gage Rauch. And he was arrested, Nancy, this is what's interesting. They had arrested the family members and the sheriff's department put up a post with their mugshots on their Facebook page reporting about the arrest. And this family friend named Gage Rouch commented defending them, saying they would never do this. Well, you know what?

Somebody did it. What? Well, Nancy, they looked at that family friend's profile picture and they said, hey, he looks familiar. So they pulled up the video of this child being abused and he was one of the abusers. So they arrested him and charged him okay with abuse you know what john cardillo former nypd host america talks newsmax tv john cardillo you've seen a lot but this sounds like a family affair where everyone in the family picked on this one little boy yeah nancy i, look, you find that bad guys tend to congregate in groups, right?

They find each other. You see it with gangs like MS-13, and you see it with the grooming gangs in Europe, the pedophile grooming gangs. So these groups of abusers are really no different. Birds of a feather flock together. People that are going to abuse a child to the point of killing that child aren't going to be hanging around with me or you or Ernie Allen or the doctors on the show. They're going to be hanging around with like-minded people

because ultimately you're going to let that person into your home. They're going to know what you're doing, right? A drug dealer hangs out with a drug dealer because they've got, or drug users, because they've got stashes of drugs in the home. They've got weapons in the home. But part of it, going back to something you asked earlier is why these things happen why we can't get in front of it child abuse unlike a lot of other crimes for law enforcement is very reactive right you don't know about it until it's happened and chances are the bruises and the cuts and the scrapes start presenting after it's been happening for a while so the very nature of it makes it almost impossible for law enforcement to be proactive.

I find it very unusual. Dr. Angela Arnold joining me, psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Angela, I noticed in many cases that even when there are several children in the family, the parents seem to identify one child very often, one child that they're going to pick on, that they're going to abuse and torture. And the other children, whether they join in or not, become complicit in it. They're afraid to tell anybody. They see it happening. They see their

sibling tortured until they die. I find it interesting how the abusers pick one of the children as their target. And also the aunt in this case, Madison Sasser, texted her boyfriend the child should, quote, go die in the woods and described him as a, quote, piece of crap off my effing shoe. And that's according to the Billings Gazette. I mean, these people, no, no shame. Not only do they torture the child, they take videos of it and they write about it and text about it and nobody does anything. It's amazing to me. Nancy, it's not unusual for in a family situation, in a family dynamic, for someone to become the identified patient. So that's also what I'm relating this to. They pick one child.

It's typically not the oldest child that they pick. They pick one child. That child becomes the abused. And then there's also something else called foie a deux, where everyone, the mental illness or the evil that perpetuates in this family, everyone starts to experience it. Everyone living in the family starts to become part of that. What did you name? What was the name of that, Dr. Angela Arnold? Foie a deux. So a deux, that's two, correct?

What's the first? Mm-hmm. I can understand. So, adieu, that's two, correct? What's the first? I can't understand. Typically, that typically describes when one person in the home is mentally ill and then the other person starts to act inside of that person's mental illness. So, you're saying, poids, adieu, correct? Yes. And that's when basically the whole family, whether they're doing the abuse themselves or not, somehow becomes part of it.

And also I noticed, which we first became aware of, I've known about it for many years after prosecuting, the withholding of food. But the public became largely aware of it after the House of Horrors in California with mommy Louise Turpin and her husband they would withhold food from all of their children and they would eat like cakes and pies and food in front of them yet withhold them crime stories with nancy grace i want to switch now to the story of eduardo paso thank you for being with us this is a tough subject but the epidemic of child abuse and child murders is burgeoning. It's actually growing in the U.S., so thank you for joining us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I want you to take a listen to our cut eight, and that is Fox 59 Indianapolis reporter Haley Bull.

We're talking about a little boy named Edward. I did everything I could, but nothing worked. A spokesperson for the Manatee County Sheriff's Office said they were called by the school district to investigate a possible child abuse incident. The spokesperson said they had incidents reported to them in November of 2017 and 2018. They investigated and found nothing. Manatee County Schools confirms Eduardo was withdrawn from the district this past December to be homeschooled. He had attended the district sporadically since 2012. No one will listen and this happens now. Now my son is dead. But Garcia wants people to listen to make sure this never

happens again. He had a horrible death and you don't even do that to an animal. Chain it up like that and abuse it the way he was abused. She's right. You don't even do that to an animal, much less a beautiful baby boy like Edward. Straight out to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. Levi, I'm looking at a photo of Edward right now, and that smile is just breaking my heart. What happened, Levi? Well, Nancy, investigators were called to the Bloomington Hospital there in Monroe County, Indiana,

and 12-year-old Eduardo Paso was there, and he was pronounced dead in the hospital. He was severely emaciated. He weighed only 50 pounds, and he had zero, zero percent body fat, Nancy, and his father, Louis Paso Jr., was charged with murder along with his stepmother, Dana Medina Flores. They were also charged with neglect and battery. And what's so disturbing, Nancy, is that there, again, they took photos of the abuse, just like in the last case we were talking about. And there was a photo of this 12-year-old little boy inside of a bathtub tied up with a dog shock collar around his neck. You know, sometimes I don't even know what to say back.

I know I'm accused of interrupting and talking all the time, but sometimes I don't know what to say back. To Ernie Allen, a special guest joining us today here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Ernie Allen, former president of National Center of Missing and Exploited Children. Now, Allen Global Consulting, still fighting for children, children he's never known, he's never met. Ernie, do you ever get to a point where you're completely saturated, where you can't hear one more word for just a few moments? When I think about them taking photos of the little boy as they're torturing him,

severely emaciated chains and ropes, video of him wearing a dog collar in a tub. How do you even wake up Ernie and put one foot in front of the other? Well, it's very difficult, Nancy, and it's easy to be overwhelmed with the sheer magnitude of the numbers. But in my view, we simply have to do a better job of dealing with these children one child at a time. Somebody should have noticed Eduardo. This didn't just happen overnight. This happened over a period of time. They pulled him out of school. They homeschooled him. There were images, there were videos of the child being abused. So the system needs to improve. We need more resources directed towards social services, and social services needs to be willing to act. I mean, you're not always going to have a smoking gun.

If there are bruises, somebody needs to investigate. Well, here's the thing. How do you mobilize witnesses? For instance, in the case that Joseph Scott Morgangan referred to the kitty genovese case in new york it's a seminal case where people watched her being assaulted and murdered and nobody did a thing they were watching out their windows and did nothing didn't speak up didn't say anything and you know i've done uh crazy stuff before to Joseph Scott Morgan. I remember this was right before the twins were born. And I had pulled into a restaurant to get to go.

And a woman came up to me with three little children and said she needed money for a bus. And I gave her everything I had. And then the next day, believe it or not, maybe, no, no, two or three days later, I pulled back in and got out of the car. And there she was again, dragging the children at night through a busy parking lot. And I realized she lived right there in the area and was using the children as props to get money. She was getting a lot of money too, because I gave her everything I had. And of course, I badged her and told her I was going to call D-Fax. And as a matter of fact, I did. I did call the police right then.

Dragging one of the children was a babe in arms. One could hardly walk, and the other looked like there were seven or eight. And this was a scam. And I saw her going over with the children to a really nice car, like a BMW. And it goes on and on and on, and nobody says anything, Joe Scott. No, they don't, Nancy, and you're right. This idea of using the children as a prop, and if I could just go back to one thing, this thread that seems to run through many of these cases

is this photography, videography of documenting what they're doing. It's almost like these children are used in a way to, to create this, this other reality. And I have to say, I think that there's probably a sexual component to it too, to make, if it couldn't get any If it couldn't get any worse, you've hit the basement in depravity at this moment in time. Because why else would you have a little boy who's emaciated, whose body is literally consuming itself because he has, as Levi said, zero fat. So his body is actually digesting itself. Okay, you know what, Joe Scott? It's my fault because I asked you and you told me.

Sometimes, you know. But here's what I learned in court. No matter how awful the facts are, I want to know them. And I want to tell them to the jury. And I want to tell them to you today because we can stop this. We can. It seems overwhelming like this huge tide that could sweep us away, but we can do something. Let me give you a number, please. If you suspect, even suspect of child abuse, please call this number 800-4-A-Child, 800-422-4453.

If you suspect someone you work with, somebody at school, a neighbor, somebody you see in the laundromat or the grocery store abused their child, please, you can make a difference, and you can save a child's life. You can, and you will. 1-800-422-4453. We're talking about a little boy right now, Edward Paso, who died after his parents allegedly starved and abused him. Very often, we see the mom and the dad or one of them, but today we highlighted stories that involved grandparents, stepmothers, boyfriends, non-blood relatives brought into the

home that then took part in horrific abuse. All of these three children died, but it doesn't have to be that way. Please join us. If you have questions, go to crimeonline.com or 800-422-4453. I hope we can make a difference. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.