Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Horrific sight as beautiful 9 year-old girl dragged off bike, killed by 3 pit bulls

Episode Date: August 28, 2019

9 year-old Emma Hernandez is pulled off her bike by 3 pit bulls. Neighbors try to help by fighting off the dogs but Emma died. Joining Nancy Grace today to discuss the tragedy: Psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, Defense Attorney Jason Oshins, Former Detective Steven Lampley, Medical Examiner Dr Michelle Dupre, Animal Activist Lawyer Penny Douglas-Furr, and Crime Stories Investigative reporter Levi Page. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. From the police to the EMS responders, to the Hernandez family itself, the death of nine-year-old Emma Hernandez is one that will not soon be forgotten. It was a horrifying death and a family is desperate to cope. She's a very, very, very smart girl and she's going to be very, very missed. Emma's pictures show her to be the beautiful, fun-loving child the family describes. This is her neighborhood. She should be able to be free and do what every kid does, walk around, ride their bikes. They shouldn't be afraid to be in their own neighborhood.

Today, the bicycle she rode when the dogs attacked sat in the front lawn just behind the makeshift memorial Mourners started building last night and continued today. Teddy bears, a skateboard, lit candles. Her aunt and godmother, Claudia Stapleton, told Local 4 News that Emma's father, Armando, who didn't feel up to speaking on camera, battled with the dog's owner just last week. I actually had an argument with them that they needed to be property fenced. They couldn't just be roaming out. And he just didn't do anything. The DPD arrested the owner last night. In the meantime, the animal control unit tells us that they expect to euthanize those three pit bulls.

I just feel like I'm going to be sick, physically sick. by not one, not two, but three pit bulls that are so crazy to get at her. They broke through a fence as she rode her bike near her own home. I cannot even imagine dying that way, much less as a nine-year-old child being attacked by pit bulls. You were just hearing our friend at NBC4, that was Rob Maloney, and he was speaking with Emma's family. Oh, my stars. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You know, Jason Ocean's with me, renowned defense attorney in the tri-state area, joining me right now out of New York, but also a long time personal friend, even though he is a defense lawyer. Try not to think about that or hold it against him. But Jason, you have a beautiful

boy and girl. Okay. You and I sat through hours and hours and hours on a darkened set at Court TV, watching live trials and commenting on them in our golf voices. And you know, all the years I talked to you about how I wanted a family and could it ever happen for me? And literally since 1997, we first started talking about would I ever get to have a family? Can you imagine a nine year old little girl just riding her bike attacked by not one but three pit bulls and mauled dead, Jason. I mean, how could anybody defend the dog owner? You can't, Nancy. I mean, it chokes me up listening to this. And, you know, you have a responsibility. You have animals and they have a pedigree and you're responsible for your animals and they need to be secure and you can't be flipping about it. You know, the defendant might be tearful. Who cares? Well, I think I've got somebody that disagrees with you, Jason Oceans. I've got somebody her name is penny douglas fir she's known throughout

the southeast region from georgia to florida to alabama you name it she's also known aka as a quote dog nut and and let me tell you what happened one time i was taking, some kind of legal proceedings or some documents to Penny Douglas Fur's home. Okay. I walked pretty home from the outside. Who knows what dangers lurk inside. I go up to the front porch and it's a nice big two-story home with a front yard and a backyard and the trees and the this and the that. I didn't even get to ring the doorbell when this mass of fur and teeth and snarling insanity hurled itself to the door. I thought I nearly ran off the porch. I just, it was, I guess, eight Rottweilers living in the house running wild.

And if you look in the house, there's all these, you know, like ceramic figurines of ballet dancers and art on the walls and the dogs. So, Penny, I think the dog should have gotten the death penalty. I don't have a problem with it. Oh, I have a problem with giving the death penalty to the dog. I blame the owner, not the dog. They killed a nine-year-old little girl, Penny. I understand that.

So the owner should have had the dogs properly restrained, and it wouldn't happen. I understand the little girl's father got into an argument with the owner the day before about the fact that the fence was broken and the dogs could get through it. And I would never, and I know you wouldn't, let your children go out if there were loose dogs in the neighborhood that are three people. I cannot believe you are trying to put this on the parents. I also understand there are allegations that the dogs had been loose before and went to a nearby store. And on another occasion, they attacked and killed some puppies.

Killed some puppies. I mean, to me, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist, host of the hit series on ID, Fatal Vows, and author, Dr. Brian Russell. I mean, to me, it's just like a machine gun, an Uzi, laying in the front yard, and it goes off and guns people down, guns down a child. To have three wild pit bulls and Penny Douglas Furr, I mean, I don't know how she even fixed her mouth to say this, somehow suggests the parents shouldn't let the little girl out like she's the one that needs to be fenced in to ride her bike. I accuse her regularly of having lost her mind.

But guess what? She hasn't lost her mind. She really believes it. She argues it successfully in court. What? Well, let me first just say that I, too, am a huge dog lover. In fact, it's there's a thin line between dog lover and dog. Well, I don't know if I cross into that territory, but I will tell you, I'm embarrassed to say that no matter what I put on my social media about psychology or crime or law or whatever, the most popular things I ever post are pictures of my dog. And over the last several years with all the media that I've been doing, I have not taken

very many law cases as a lawyer, but I have one now that is almost exactly what you just said. And I took it because these two young women owned this little dog. One of them took the dog out for a walk. And this guy, just like in this case, who let his pit bulls be out running wild in his front yard, the pit bulls be out running wild in his front yard, the pit bulls killed these young women's little dog. They just came out and tore the little dog, there's a little dachshund, tore it to pieces. And in that kind of a case, I absolutely cannot

understand how the girls that own this dog could have any liability whatsoever. And I don't want to hear about, oh, well, they knew that sometimes these pit bulls are out running loose in the neighborhood. It's a negligent, negligent, reckless, irresponsible owner, just like in this case. And I'm so angry, of course, for the loss of this little girl, but I'm angry at what this does to, I mean, it isn't. I can't, you know what, I'm going to let you and Penny Douglas-Furr just stew in the same pot. Take a listen to WXYZ reporter Matt Smith. The family's still really in shock and in mourning. Community members stopping by the house all day. A makeshift memorial already started for little

Emma and really all anybody can say at this point in time is they don't know what comes next. Candles flicker in the picture stands for all the seat Emma Hernandez taken far too soon. Family members telling me she was riding this bike like she always rode when she was turning around

in an alley there she was met by three dogs who mauled her to death. When I come out of my house, I heard all the screaming and that I was aware that something bad had happened. That neighbor wasn't the only one that heard the screams. Emma's 12-year-old brother had to witness the horrifying scene as well, running towards her. This afternoon, police tell me the owner of the dogs is in custody. A warrant request has yet to be filed.

And at last check, two dogs were still being held by animal control. The third was shot by a neighbor. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. One moment that nine-year-old girl having fun playing in this alleyway here. The next, she's being viciously attacked by dogs. When I'd come out of my house, I heard all the screaming and I was aware that something bad had happened. Deborah Golden says it was the worst scene she's ever seen. I seen the little girl flat on her back with the bite marks and part of her neck hanging off. The nine-year-old was attacked by three pit bulls shortly before 4 p.m. while playing in an alley near Central Avenue and Smart Street. I started CPR and I had the dad grab her

neck and hold it. One man who saw the attack quickly came to the young girl's aid trying to free her from the dog's mouth. I went and grab a brick and threw it right at the dogs. They all ran in. I stood next to the girl to make sure if she's OK, I yelled out for help. Police say one of the dogs was shot. A friend of the owners. I was told that fired a shot at the dog is vicious and fatal attack is

leaving neighbors and police wondering why these dogs attacked ending this young girl's life. Are you talking about a nine year old girl who was just out there playing and now she's not here. But I did not realize that they will be doing this. They're not vicious dogs. They're really nice dogs. They're gentle. I don't know what came over them. Who in the hay just said they were gentle and nice? They're not gentle and nice. They're killers. And they stood over this

nine-year-old little girl's body and literally tore her neck out of her body. That was WXYZ Alan Campbell, Pitbull's peaceful, you know, I haven't even gotten to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter or Steve Lampley, detective, but Penny Douglas-Furr, why is it always pit bulls? A nine-year-old little girl, a little girl just riding her bike is now dead. Why is it always pit bulls and rottweilers? It's not always rottweilers and pit bulls. It's just those are the ones you hear about because those are the stories that make the news. But there are plenty of other

kinds of dogs that attack. And when you have more than two dogs, you have dogs that get into this, they're in a group now and they will attack much more than if they're alone. And you said there was a first incident. When that first incident occurred, there should have been a ticket. They should have gone to court. If these dogs were dangerous dogs, they should have been ordered to be kept in a certain type of environment where they could not get out. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The reality is pit bulls are still responsible for most fatal attacks in the U.S. By far, killing 284 people over a period of time, 66% of total dog attack fatalities. And that is despite the breed of pit bulls accounting for just 6.5% of the total dog population. I'm getting that from

Forbes. There's 6.5% of the total dog population, but they are 66% of total fatalities. Now, when I brought home my pound puppy, Nitro, Buddha, Bandit, aka Fat fat boy that's the name that stuck my pound cat cinnamon and two believe it or not pound guinea pigs chloe and abby lord in heaven all i heard from penny douglas fur was dachshunds attack chihuahuas attack you know what they may but they don't kill, as far as I know, Levi Page, Crime Online. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Hold on. Oh, here we go. A group of dachshunds killed a woman.

I'll be glad to send it to you. When? In 1928? No, recently. And is that the only dachshund murder you know of? Well, dachshunds are small dogs. It's going to take a bunch of dachshunds. That's a yes or no.

That's a yes or no. Hogwash to the dachshunds. Hogwash. Hogwash. Thank you. Thank you, Jason Oceans. You could send that to me, Penny, but I'm not buying it. Dotsons are all little and tiny.

They ain't jumping on a nine-year-old and going. They're not going for the thrill. She probably got that at the grocery store from that article that always has Elvis and an alien on front, Dotsons attack, gang of wild Dotsons. It was on Time Magazine. Yeah, Time Magazine. The lady's name is Tracy Garcia. She was killed by seven dachshunds outside her home in Oklahoma.

Nancy, just to add to your statistics, another thing that pit bulls make up is they make up a huge part of the population of shelters in this country because people think, oh, I'm going to get a pit bull and I'm going to look like a badass and I'm going to walk around town. Did you actually just say A-S-S on the air? I did. I mean, if I could get my hands around your neck, as much as I work with the children, not to say, they can't even say F-A-R-T or G-O-S-H. Oh no, no, no. They can do that when they move away from home. But here you jump up with your degree i always say children people that curse is because they don't have a very big vocabulary and that's all they know how to say but i think i think sadly you have a doctorate i think penny would agree though that not only i mean in addition to the horrific damage that this does to people this is horrible dog ownership this is horribly irresistible if you love dogs this is horrible dog ownership this is horribly irris if you love dogs this is because

those dogs do need to be put down excuse me can you cut his mic real quick because i love children i love children you know the dog comes in sadly a distant distant fifth or sixth place in our family levi page can i just get the facts i'll leave'll leave it to Dr. Brian Russell and Penny Douglas for to duke it out. Jason Oceans is in the mix, too. Go ahead, Levi. What happened? Well, just don't pick on German Shepherds or Chows. Those are my breeds.

They're next. Well, this nine-year-old little girl was out riding her bike, Nancy, and she probably never would have thought that she would end up dying in a pool of blood. And that's exactly what happened. And the neighbors were throwing bricks at these dogs. One neighbor shot one of the dogs and killed it. Her father was screaming, my baby, my baby. And in a horrific account, Deborah Golden, a neighbor that lived nearby, she heard all this commotion. She walked out there and witnessed this poor little girl, Emma Hernandez, nearly decapitated, I can barely say it, and laying in a pool of blood. She was rushed to the hospital, and unfortunately, she was pronounced dead.

And now this 33-year-old Pierre Cleveland is in big trouble. You know, I can't believe people are whining because the dog owner has been charged with a criminal offense. Take a listen to WXYZ Matt Smith. Neighbors tell me there had been complaints about the dogs in the past. We're waiting to hear back from police on that front. But right now, what's most important is what was lost. Every parent would be proud of. Today, family and friends come and go from this makeshift memorial, just a little bit of a reminder that this is a time that every parent would be proud of today. Family and friends come

and go from this makeshift memorial. Just a short walk from the alley at Central and smart where Emma's life was ended. Some like this neighbor even showing up with stuffed animals, bringing

family members to tears. A reminder that this is a hurt that will linger for those who knew this sweet girl. You know, you're talking about a nine year old girl who was just out there

playing and now she's not here. As I said, the family is just too shaken up to talk on camera right now, but they do need help. And that comes in the form of a family member who

wants to help. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and

get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a look at this. I'm going to go ahead and who was just out there playing, and now she's not here. As I said, the family's just too shaken up to talk on camera right now, but they do need help, and that comes in the form of donations, if possible, to help pay for the funeral expenses for this unexpected tragedy involving little Emma. You know, I'm looking at the stats right now, and this breed, Pit Bull, is 6.5% of the total U.S. dog population. It accounts for 66% of total fatalities. Second place, Rottweiler, 45 fatal attacks, same time period.

German Shepherd, third, with 20. But all I can think about is this beautiful little girl and what her last moments on earth were like. I'm also thinking about the fact that there had been previous incidents. Levi Page, can you tell me about the owner and what are his charges? He is being charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, and having a dangerous animal cause a death to another. His bond was set at $2 million. He has no criminal history, and his lawyer is using that to try to paint a sympathetic picture of him, the fact that he has no criminal history.

But wait a minute. Isn't it true, Steve Lampley, that there were previous incidents where the neighbors begged him to do something about the dogs and he did not yes nancy there were several in addition to what you mentioned earlier these dogs these same dogs also killed i don't know how many numerous puppies in cleveland's on home as i understand so uh animal control was called they tried to make contact they didn't i think in that case animal control dropped the ball because when they didn't make contact, they dropped any efforts to contact and correct the situation. But this is not the first time these dogs have gotten out.

Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here, a beautiful mom of two. In fact, I call her a Reese Witherspoon lookalike because in a lot of pictures, that's exactly who she looks like. The mother of two beautiful little children, including an eight-year-old little girl, is found dead in a bloody bathtub, a slip and fall. And her eight-year-old daughter, Anna, is the one that found her. This Saturday, 6 o'clock Eastern, 5 Central, on Oxygen, Injustice with Nancy Grace, we investigate the death of Shelly Daniszewski, because I do not believe this was a slip and fall. And from what I can see, there has been a grave injustice on many levels. Please join us in a search for the truth this Saturday, 6 p.m. Eastern, 5 Central, Injustice with Nancy Grace.

Thanks, guys. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, in cases like this that are so sad and so just horrific, people want to know more. They want to know who owned the dogs, what kind of person is he, what is his name, what does he look like. But this case is all about Emma and what happened to her, and the judge made that crystal clear. Cuomo said bond in the amount of $2 million cash, no 10%, no early or administrative release. $2 million. Yes, that is the bond set by this judge for 33-year-old Pierre Cleveland. This during his video arraignment inside 36th District Court. Cleveland is who law enforcement points to as the person responsible for ending the young life of nine-year-old Emma Hernandez. They say it was his three dogs that mauled the

little girl to death in southwest Detroit. His attorney pleading to the court. I know I know this is a serious charge for one he has absolutely no prior felony history whatsoever. The Wayne County Prosecutor's Office has charged Cleveland with second-degree murder, dangerous animal causing death, and involuntary manslaughter. You are hearing from WXYZ reporter Andrea Isen. Guys, in the last hours, Emma's family gathers at a church on the city's west side to say goodbye to a nine-year-old little girl. The place was full of pink and purple flowers, Emma's favorite colors. They decorated the entryway of the church doors as people streamed in and out saying goodbye. Church bells ringing

to be heard throughout the neighborhood. Every seat was full. Long pauses as people summoned the strength to keep talking. It was overwhelming, the pain, with a mother standing over a tiny white casket. She had just come home from a doctor's visit on Monday morning and was riding around the block on her bike when she turned down an alley near her home on Central, three pit bulls leaping over a fence to attack her. These pit bulls withstood neighbors throwing bricks or anything they could get their hands on to try to stop them. Her dad gave her CPR and rushed her to the hospital, but her neck was mortally wounded. The Wayne County medical

examiner says COD cause of death, a fracture to the cervical spine. That means her neck was broken. The attack was so horrific that counseling services were offered to the emergency responders. The family so distraught, but you could see it coming. Take a listen to this. And you will see how they feel very differently on how the punishment should fit the alleged crime.

The defendant was harboring dogs he knew to be vicious. He knew to be aggressive. The defendant knew that a week prior to his dogs killing Emma Hernandez, one of his dogs killed a puppy in his home. One of the dogs killed multiple puppies. I just have a very brief statement from the family. The family is just praying for that precious child, okay? And we think at this time it would be inappropriate to answer any more questions involving this, okay?

Well, I did ask him a question. I asked him what he thought about that bond. He called it outrageous. Well, what happened to Emma is outrageous. That $2 million bond. Okay, back to you. Penny Douglas-Furr, I guess you're still defending the dogs. Oh, absolutely. I don't think it's the owner that's at fault, not the dogs. They should have been properly restrained. I've got very big dogs. As you already said, you don't see my dogs doing anything. Yeah, you're right, because you've got them under lock and chain inside that house. What happens when you...

No, they have never been under chain. I mean a chain on the front door. A chain on the front door. A chain on the front door. Do you ever take them out for a walk? Yes, absolutely. When? In the dead of night so they can't attack anybody? No, they don't attack other people. They're good dogs, and they're with me.

They're very well trained. They've had other dogs run right up to them and they do nothing. All I saw was teeth when I came to your front door. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Tell me about the previous incidents that the whole neighborhood knew about. Is it true somebody tried to burn the owner's house down? Yeah, people were very upset, Nancy, because his dogs had killed puppies. They had been aggressive with people in the past. They'd gotten loose because his fence was not properly secured. And the victim in this case, Emma Hernandez, her own father had had a confrontation with him before the attack about keeping his dogs secluded in that fence and securing the fence so they could not get out. This is so

negligent on his part, Nancy. Explain to me the legal theory, Jason Oceans, how they are charging the owner of the dogs. How is that happening to Pierre Cleveland? Well, in different jurisdictions, this would be criminally negligent homicide. Certainly, he knows from previous encounters of his dogs having blood on their hands with other animals. He knows about the condition. It's no different than driving your car 8, 90 miles an hour down a side street, and you were just joyriding. So he's aware of that. These are not Dotsons, the breed itself, and they're big dogs. He's aware of this. That's enough for a criminally negligent homicide. Maybe some could question the amount of bond because bond is to return to court. He's got

no priors. That's a different story whatsoever. But as far as the negligent homicide, absolutely. That's straight up. There's no dispute about that, Nancy. Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of I.D.'s hit series, Fatal Vows. This owner, Pierre Cleveland, apparently was warned over and over and over and did nothing. In fact, there had been an argument with him just the week before about the dogs. Yeah, there's a personality type, Nancy, that I've seen in my own life that actually sort of gets off on the intimidation factor that their dogs create with other people. There's a guy who lives here in my small town in Kansas who rescues pit bulls who otherwise would be killed in shelters. Obviously, he has a place in his heart for these dogs, but what he'll do is, well, what he used to

do is he would walk them around town multiple at a time and he would let them run at people, snarl at people. He would walk past crowded patios where people were drinking and eating and he would let them go right up to the fence. And he would sit there and smile at how people would get intimidated. They would get up and move back. And and one time he let them run up on my dog. And I said to him, I said, you know, you obviously love these animals. You live in a state where a lot of us carry. Somebody is going to shoot one of these dogs if you continue to let them do this. This is assault. This is putting people in reasonable fear for their own lives and the lives of their pets.

And he actually, to his credit, every time I've ever seen him since, he crosses the street. But there's a personality type, and it sounds like this owner may be that, that actually gets off on the fact that they're scaring the hell out of everybody. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The man who owned the pit bulls, who attacked the girl, Pierre Cleveland, is now facing a number of charges. That includes second-degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, and dangerous animal-causing death. On Thursday, we saw it all unfold in court. The court will set bond in the amount of $2 million cash, guaranteed no 10%. The defendant knew that a week prior to his dogs killing Emma Hernandez, one of his dogs killed a puppy in his home.

Nobody wants to see a child getting killed, especially in such a brutal way. You are hearing coverage from ABC Action News, Channel 7, around the time of the funeral of this nine-year-old little girl. To Steve Lampley, crack detective joining us, Steve, I don't understand why the dogs were not taken away when the first claim against the dogs occurred. In my case, in the cases of the times I've been out on animal complaints, and God knows how many of those I've been on, we would require that the dog owner remedy the situation then, whether it's bring the dogs inside the house take the dog somewhere else and and that could vary by officer that could vary by state it could vary by law i don't know

the situation there but i know in my case we required remedy right then you know the mother of this little girl emma hernandez released a statement and she wants this to be a wake-up call to dangerous dog owners and lawmakers after her daughter out riding a bike was knocked off attacked by three pit bulls and murdered um straight out to penny douglas fur you, the owner is now being charged with second-degree murder. I understand. Ann, do you think that's right or wrong? Well, he was wrong, Nancy, but so was law enforcement.

They should have done something with the first incident. You have to go to court, and if your dog is found to be dangerous, they not only have to be in a fenced yard, they have to be inside a fence, inside the fence. And if they ever go out, they're required to be in a fenced yard. They have to be inside a fence, inside the fence. And if they ever go out,

they're required to be mustered. I had a question for you, Penny Douglas-Furr. You know, I made my children watch this movie. They grew to love them. The Sinbad movies. You actually have to order the DVD, and

they always have some crazy monsters you know like a seven-headed hydra or a sea monster and all the old sin baths and jason and the argonaut and the golden fleece why would you even want a monster behemoth dog that you have to put inside a fence, inside a fence, inside a fence. I mean, why? Well, that's whenever the dog has been declared dangerous. And the problem is by then the person that owns the dog is probably already attached to the dog. If not, they put the dog down. I've had people that have put the dog down. But you have to do that to protect the public if the dog is declared dangerous. Well, this is what I know.

I know that the condition of this 9-year-old girl's body was so upsetting that the EMTs had to get therapy. Take a listen to NBC Forge your Monterey. What happened in this alley is senseless, leaving even investigators torn by the crime scene. It's hard for me not to cry. You know, it's tough, real tough. You know, you're talking about a 9-year-old girl who was just out there playing,

and now she's not here. No, we did reach out to this little girl's family and family members were just simply too distraught to talk on camera. As for the dog's owners, that owner, the young man is in police custody as charges are pending and within the last 15 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes, the fire department was at the home in question where those dogs escaped from. Apparently someone potentially threw something flammable at this home, trying to potentially set it on fire, but thankfully that house did not catch fire. As you can see, some tensions in this neighborhood in light of everything that happened here tonight.

Right now, we are waiting to see what happens in court. Levi Page, what comes next for this dog, this monster dog, devil dog owner? Well, he has to go through the legal proceedings, Nancy. He's lawyered up. He has a lawyer, and the lawyer is really pushing home the fact that this guy doesn't have a criminal record but after he got arrested wait a minute wait a minute neither did scott peterson jason oceans neither did drew peterson neither did well i just wanted to say after he got arrested nancy he sent a text to a friend to come get his marijuana plants out of his okay you know what um i'm so glad you told me that jason oceans that changes everything no no uh they save the plants but uh uh it doesn't you know you you reference the scott peterson uh this uh clearly

different relative uh to the uh to the peterson case uh you know capital murder uh versus the you know seemingly perhaps an overcharge but more appropriately criminally named homicide. That overcharge. Well, that he was warned. And Jackie Howard, with her apparent knowledge of the drug trade, says that's why he had the dogs to protect his pot. What about that? That that that would that would be different. That that, too, if that was the purpose of that, then that would be a factor.

That would be an aggravating factor. Then it wasn't just criminally negligent, but there was purposefulness in having those wild animals, you know, unfettered access to the neighborhood. And for Penny, I just want to say it didn't matter that the father had a confrontation and the father should have known better than to let his girl out. What about the rest of the community that weren't aware of it? It's not just the father who might have known that. It's everybody else. But you had referenced that earlier that the father should have known better for the daughter. That's the whole community, too. That man was responsible for the safety of the community. I'm talking about the story I read said the father had gotten into a fight with him the day before because he knew the dogs were getting out. If I knew that there were a pack of dogs

loose in my neighborhood, I would not allow my child out until the police dealt with it. But wait, Penny, he did not know that they were loose. He knew that they had gotten out in the past, that they had killed the puppy inside the dog owner's home, and he wanted the fence fortified, was my understanding, Levi Page. Yes, you're absolutely correct. They kept getting out of the fence, and that's what he had the confrontation with them about. But even if the dogs were roaming out, he's not to blame for his daughter dying.

Guys, we wait as justice unfolds for the dog owner, 33-year-old Pierre Cleveland. And right now, my thoughts with the family of nine-year-old Emma. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.