Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HORROR 911 AUDIO OF TRAIN-STAB VICTIM REVEAL IRYNA’S FINAL MOMENTS, ‘BLOODY & HOPELESS’

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Iryna Zarutska, a Ukrainian refugee, came to the United States with her family to escape her war-torn country for a better life. Iryna took English classes, had a job and was making a productive life for herself, but all her aspirations were cut short by an unprovoked violent attack from a man with a criminal history.  Video shows Iryna getting on the train in Charlotte North Carolina, taking a seat and looking at her phone quietly. Video shows a passenger sitting directly behind Iryna, who we later came to know as Carlos Brown Jr. A close-up of Brown's hands can be seen opening and unfolding the knife in order to prepare to stand up to stab Iryna. Although Iryna's hat covers a lot of her face, the shock in her eyes, along with the terror she silently expressed during her final moments of life, bleeding out, surrounded by panic is heartbreaking to watch.  Video also shows Brown, in an orange hoodie, walking the aisles of the train with blood dripping on the floor. One passenger notices blood drops and avoids stepping in it, while another witness on the phone with 911 tells them a man just stabbed a woman for no reason and she needs help.  Moments after allegedly stabbing Iryna, Brown is captured on video non-chalantly walking the platform of the train station. On the train, Brown was wearing a hoodie, now he is wearing a black t-shirt, with the now bloody hoody, wrapped around his hands. In reaction to the shocking and violent death of Iryna Zarutska, North Carolina Governor Josh Stein just signed "Iryna's Law" into effect increasing checks on criminals getting out on bail and prohibits cashless bail for some violent crimes and most repeat offender. A Grand jury indicted Brown for murder of Iryna formally charging him with first-degree murder. Brown is being held without bond in the County jail, but an order was filed for him to be committed to Central Regional Hospital. Allegedly he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and also has a lengthy rap sheet of criminal behavior.  Joining Nancy Grace today, Randy Kessler -  Atlanta Trial Lawyer, Emory Law School Professor, Past Chair ABA Family Law Section, Author: "Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids and Your Future", www.KSFamilyLaw.com, Instagram: @rkessler23, Twitter: @GADivorce Caryn Stark -  Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice   Andy Kahan - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston, crime-stoppers.org   Ron Bateman - Former homicide detective, former undercover narcotics agent, former sheriff. Author crime fiction series, “Silent Blue Tears”, and now soon to be released his newest book with Billy Joe Nichols, “opposing sides, memoirs of a drug dealer and a detective”, Website: Ronbatemanbooks.com , TikTok: @Ron.Bateman.655 Dr. Thomas Coyne - Chief Medical Examiner, District 2 Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida; Forensic Pathologist, Toxicologist, Neuropathologist; X: @DrTMCoyne Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks   Dave Mack - Crime Stories, Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Hart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The horror 9-1-1 audio, the train-stabbing victim, Irena, reveals her final desperate moments. And what is described by witnesses as a bloody and hopeless. seen. Can anybody say death penalty? I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. This is Charlotte 911. Do you need to fire a medic?

We only told this man that stabbed his woman for no reason. I was dead like the daughter. Why did Irina have to die? Stabbed dead on public transportation? I would say like the daughter. You said a mail staff?

One for no reason? Do they need medicine? Yes, only three. Yes, I'm freaking bleeding. Okay, do you ever medics? He's going to show it. The community still reeling. Now, what makes this murder different from other murders? I'm about to play you that, newly released to audio,

and I've got to warn you up front. It's very, very disturbing. Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot of high-profile clients. Randy Cusler. emory law school professor former chair aBA family law section author of divorce protect yourself your kids in your future kessler this case is a death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder according to the state occurred on mass transit in a nutshell okay you're not delivering a speech at the aBA why is that and

aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler. That's all they need is to surpass the threshold. And in the law, they're allowed to ask for the death penalty because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor, nobody wants this guy around. They're going to get a good shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public transportation.

That authorizes a death penalty ass. Okay. You do know what you just did, right? Put Kessler up? That is not working. I said, why is it a death penalty? because it's on mass transit. And you say like three times it's death penalty

because it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just regurgitated my question, but you did it beautifully. And now I see why you win so many cases in snow appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now. For your sake,

mass transit killings are DP death penalty because, much like a titular murder, where a governor or a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's not just the individual. It's what they represent. That's why, that or a police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases. This is a, am I actually Q&A with myself, Kessler? This is a death penalty case.

Mass transit, because it's what it represents. Mass transit, government. Who's going to get on a bus or a train? if this guy's walking free with a bloody knife. Well, that's the reason for the death penalty. You want to find the cases where a death penalty is really going to have a chilling effect. Hopefully it's going to scare other people. But the problem is, Nancy, nobody's going to not kill somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison.

To me, it should be death penalty because jury wants it. Really? Because I don't want old sparky. I don't want the needle. And now the firing squad, well, long story short, that is why this is a death penalty case. because Irina was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm of the government, and there's a renter right now. And because it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to step on a bus. Chaos. That is why this is a death penalty case, but I want to get back. This is something

that Kessler loathes and hates when a 911 audio is played in front of a jury. Why do you hate that so much, Kessler? Because I love it. As I said, a picture's worth 1,000 words, and audio is worth 10,000 words. There's no way to unring that bill, period. Jury hears that. That equals conviction. Let's take a listen and see if he's right.

This is Charlotte 911. We only need to please fire a medic. You said a mail staff someone for no reason? Do they need medics? Yeah, throw the train. You have to fucking clean it. Okay, standline with medics. The other, shelter.

Medic in County Fire, what is the address for the emergency? We're right at the, what is this? We're in South here right across from Evercombeian East and West Boulevard. The train station. Yeah, Kessler, you're right. This man calling 911, what he observed, makes a grown man. cry. He's crying, Kessler. How do you think the jury's going to react to that? He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him. That's the whole point of the audio.

You can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself and you don't ever want to be in his position. You don't ever want to witness that. You don't know what to experience it. And you don't want to love when to experience it. And you feel it. It's emotionally draining. It hits you right here. That's a conviction. That audio equals conviction to me. I want to hear that one. I'm going to go to the next, the next 911, but I want to hear that one more time. We're hearing a grown man witness

breaking down in tears over what just happened to Irina. Listen. This is Charlotte 911. Do you need police fire a medic? We on the train, just three and just stop this woman for no reason. I was dead right. You said a male staff someone for no reason? Do they need medicine?

Yeah, so the train. You have to, you clean it. Okay. Stand line with medics. We're on the county fire. What is the address for the emergency? We're right at the, what is this? We're in South here right across from our ever coming in the east and west borderline station.

With me, a renowned forensic psychologist, TV, radio trauma expert consultant. It's Karen Stark at Karen Stark.com. Karen, thank you for being with us. The man is in tears. The man is crying. and he says, I was standing right beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest of his life. Without a doubt, Nancy, that's trauma, terrible trauma,

because just imagine, I want everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being stabbed for no reason at all. Oh, my stars, look. What, but, but, but, but, but, Karen Stark, do you see the video? The guy is one. walking around, here he is, he's about to stand up, he's fumbling in his pocket for his knife, plenty of time to form an intent. You see what's on the, do you see what's on the floor?

He's wandering around with a knife dripping with blood. I guess the 911 caller is traumatized, Karen Stark. Without a doubt. Absolutely, Nancy. How could you not be? I think everyone who witnessed that will be traumatized. How many people see something like that? We're constantly riding on a train. Hopefully, none. Guys, we have just attained the newly released 9-1-1 calls. Listen.

There's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. I don't know if anybody's called 9-1-1 yet. People are just freaking out. Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now? Yes, she's on this train. she's on the train she's on the ground right now there's people around her right now i think

they're holding pressure on this one site there's a lot of luck joining us dr thomas coin chief medical examiner district two medical examiner's office state of florida never like a business there pathologists toxicologists and neuropathologists it goes on and on dr coin thank you for being with us. What, what are they trying, the medic is trying to explain what's happening. What's happening? Sure. So, I mean, from watching the horrible video, you can see that the stab wound was likely to the neck just around the collarbone area. And in that area, you have several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, it could certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches of the aorta, including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood, about a half a

to three quarters of a liter per minute. So if you can imagine, if that's all is cut, you can bleed out probably half of your total blood volume in less than about a two-minute period. So what they're trying to do is put pressure on that area, or at least they hope they're trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding. But very hard to put pressure on that area

because it's your neck, the collar bones in the way, so it's hard to actually stop the blood from splurting out. Most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible to get this person to the hospital in time. You said you can lose half your blood in less than two minutes? Yes, because blood flow here, these vessels carry blood at high volume and fast rate. And so when you cut that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the heart beats, blood will spurt out.

And yes, you could lose, you know, a couple liters of blood within a couple minute window, a very small window of time. Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic has in the 911 call. Listen to the medic. There's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed, and I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out. Okay, I want to get some more information.

Are you with the station now? Yes, she's on the train. She's on the train. She's on the train. She's on the ground. Right now, there's people around her. Okay. right now. I think they're holding pressure on this one site. There's a lot of blood.

And Dr. Thomas Coyne, you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going, hurry, hurry, hurry, get here. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. It's like, she's on the ground. She's a lot of blood. They know, don't they, Dr. Coyne? Have you ever felt that when you're trying your best to save a patient and you know, There's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway. During my early years of training, yeah, and especially in the trauma centers in the hospital where you have, you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive. And when you have an injury like this and you've lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in there and repair it in time to save the patient. It's just, it's a horrible experience.

I know that all of the newly released 911 audio is upsetting. But to me, this one with the medic made me the most upset. Because you know when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people, including me, just power through it. And it's only after it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly X or she nearly X. was hit by a car or fell off the tree or it's after it's over that you have a sigh of relief but here I hear the resignation in the medic's voice listen there's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed and I don't know if anybody's called my one yet people are just freaking out okay I want to get some

information are you with the station now yes she's on this train she's on the train she's on the ground right now there's people around her right now i think they're holding pressure on this one site there's a lot of luck karen start that was the most upsetting part of all the 911 we're about to play well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs nancy and but i also want to point out and watching that that Wynne is suffering. It's not that he stabs her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain and the fact that she's suffering, holding her mouth before she falls down and ultimately dies.

Oh, gosh, you're right, Karen. She's looking down. She's looking down. She looked down at her stab. You're right, Karen. and she's just, oh, she's dying, right in front of us. Here's more of the 911 calls. Did you see the person who stopped the female at all?

No, I did not. We were on a different train park down the road line, and this is the very flat train part. I think the person stabbed him was gone. Okay. She stabbed in the carotid, I believe. but we're not 100% confident that she's gone it. I'm not supposed to know. There's a lot of people around her. They're all saying that she's gone. The pupils are blown out and there's

no pulse. Back to Dr. Thomas Coyne. Two things. What does that mean? Stabbed in the carotid and the pupils are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training. What does that mean? Yeah, sure. So the carotid artery is that is the main artery that, is the main artery that that that supplies blood to our brain. So it travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck. It's where you would feel your pulse. If you put your fingers on your neck, that that's the carotid artery. And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could have cut in that area of her neck.

And it will pump a high volume of blood out of the body if cut. The pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost normal neurologic function. And as you can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply to her. her brain has been separate. And so within probably less than a minute's time, her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood flow it needs. And therefore, you know, her brain's not being responsive. So her pupils have blown.

Her cranial nerves and her brainstem are not working like they should. And those just simply really speak to her dire situation. Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy, I know you're looking at the video right now. you, you, you, you do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt? The guy's getting rid of his bloody clothes before he steps off the train that indicates he knows there'll be a problem. if it goes out on that platform covered in blood.

Right. And personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing, right? In normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene, you're trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're trying to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying to get away. In this case, we know he did it. We've got him dead to rights.

H-E-D-L-N-O, I spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence of guilt. Of course, but what I'm telling you, we don't need it in a sense. For many generations, it was actually a jury charge that the judge would give the jury. Somehow, the defense bar got rid of that. But the jury can consider that as evidence of guilt. Guilted conscience, trying to get rid of his bloody shirt. That's not sentencing?

No, but you don't, you're right, Nancy, but you don't lead with that. You don't leave with, look, he's covering it up when you've got a video of him actually stabbing her. You don't need to start with, hey, he was trying to cover it up. You got him dead rights on the conviction. that's going to go further to it wasn't mentally in stain. He knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the insanity defense. It takes away

any excuse for why he did this other than What are you drinking? What are you drinking smoking? Nobody said I was going to leave with guilty conscience. I'm going to leave with that video and the 911 calls. That's the state's strongest evidence. I would go with the video

that 911 calls and then the witnesses. Every single person sitting in that train car, even though they didn't help, which they're going to get cross-examined on. Yes, that's where I would lead, and then I'd bring on Dr. Thomas Coyne, and then I would bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on Andy Con, and then I would bring on Susan Hendricks, just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience, that's the last thing I bring on, but you darn right, I'll bring it on. Sure, it's piling on, and it's icing on the cake, it's extra, but really you don't need it. That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing,

because is there a question that there's any reason why this guy should be given any breaks? No, he knew what he did was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help. You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner or later, it's going to be overkill. You got him dead to rights. He's guilty of the crime.

Now, what do we do about it? Put him to death because he knew what he did. He can't help himself. I can't. Kessler. I love it when defense attorneys start saying, it's overkill. Stop. You're piling on.

Isn't it true? The state has one. swing at the ball. If there's an NG not guilty, your technical legal phrase screwed. You have one chance. Why not put on all your evidence? When a defense attorney starts squealing and whining overkill, piling on, that's when I really dig in. You can use it. You can add it, but again, it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act, the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of the crime. So that's more important. In this case, I'm just saying it's much less important

than actually what happened. What happened is terrible. It's on video. He's done. He's convicted. That is, it is overkill. It is extra. Sure, use it, Nancy. Throw it in there. But I would say to the jury, we're going to show you this, but you don't really even need it because you've already got enough to convict him. But just in case there was any doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You know, I'm not trying to explain the defense. I'm just trying to explain it for the audience. I've got something for you, Kessler.

All right. You ready? I don't know. More. 9-1-1. Let's take a listen to the newly released audio. I think she's dead, man. I think the girl might be dead, man.

The fire coach has got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that's sitting over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male. He's a dread loss. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket. A black t-shirt because his fingers like hanging off the tan. Not anymore, he doesn't.

Let's see that video of him changing clothes. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist, author of Down the Hill, My Descent, and to the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, the 911 caller, another. one of them, you know, a lot of the people on the train, which totally, is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to help her. They start videoing her, dying. What a bunch of ghouls. However, yeah, go on a video that. I guess he posted it. Long story short,

several people did call 911 and this last call we played describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now he's on another platform. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped in a red jacket because he cut his hand. A black t-shirt. He's got on blue jeans, black t-shirt, hand wrapped up dreads. We've got him on video changing clothes.

And there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video. And there he he. he goes. Walking off, like nothing happens. Susan Hendricks, what's happening in the video right here that we're showing? We're seeing the police move in on this guy and make the arrest. Nancy, it's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning. She was stabbed quickly three times in the neck. And you mentioned it earlier. That look of horror, she's looking down, probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying before our very eyes. What you're

looking at now is the police move in. And that last 911 call Nancy, you hear him say, no police presence. Where is everyone? He's panicked too. And I believe she falls over and dies before our very eyes on that video. That is huge. That, of course, is what the play in court. But you're looking at the arrest, the video we just saw. I think she's dead, man. I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire coach's guy here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that she is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male, if you got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black t-shirt, because his hand is like hanging off his hand.

He got dreadlocks, a blue jeans, a black t-shirt, and his hand is wrapped up. He got laundry and he's walking in the phone on the shirt on. Is he wearing an orange shirt? No, he got a black t-shirt on. He's on the hoodies right around his hand. Okay. There's a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's breaking because he got stabbed. That's when he got up, and he subsequently stopped.

We have her three times. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her. I mean, there's a lot of drugs. We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.

Do you recall the suspect? jumped down off the roof and took off and tried to blend in. And he did blend in with all the other students, his age. Same thing here. I want you to take a look as we're playing that

911 call, one of them, at the defendant just moseying off. Okay, listen. I think she's dead, man. I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire person's got out here, but there's no police present. And the guy that she is standing

over here on the ramp Yeah, he's on the platform. He's a black male dreadlocks. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black t-shirt, because his hand is like hanging off his hand. He got dreadlocks. A blue jeans, a black t-shirt, and his hand is wrapped up. He got lingerie, and he's on the phone on the platform.

Is he wearing orange shirt? No, he got a black t-shirt on. The hoodie's wrapped around his hand. Okay. And what I want you to look at, let's see the video, please, of him getting off the train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did. Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away, don't look at me, I'm normal, I'm not running from the scene,

I'm totally chill, check it out, just wandering along until the 911 calls that described what he was wearing, nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler. He does not want to bring attention to himself by running. His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a hurry to get to the dock in a box? No, because he doesn't want police to see him running. Right, and there's two explanations, right?

One is he's so clever that he's just trying to blend in, and that's how clever he is. Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane and he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong. And certainly, in this case, that's got a good, good chance of success, right? This guy is absolutely off the deep end. You see somebody like that. You immediately jumped to. Why would you do something like that? You've got to have something wrong with you.

It's got to go right to a mental insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise, you're thinking, this is a normal guy who planned that kind of murder or plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't know where he was. You heard later, right?

He's got voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues. That's why he was walking around as if he did nothing because mentally. Yeah, he's got 14. and just got out of jail in January and immediately did this. You know what? Everybody, there he is. There's Kessler.

There is the true Kessler coming up with what some would say is a brilliant argument that he had, he walked off because he didn't know he did anything wrong. You use what you got? Okay, that he didn't plan the incident. Randy Kessler, under the law, isn't it true that intent can be formed in the blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment, as my old judge, Judge Luther Alverson would say. Isn't that true? Premeditation does not require a long, drawn-out plan such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months. Isn't that true?

It is true, and you might have missed another point, which is why did he have a knife on him in the first place? that probably helps the intent or plan it. But the truth of matters, why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's no interaction. You're talking about passion murder where you see your wife cheating with somebody else or you see something that disturbs you and throws you into a rage. That's not his wife cheating? What passion?

That's my point. There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming, you know, the intent because you see something. There was nothing that happened to make him form the intent. It's just something up here. a criminal that did the day just because they felt like it, they had an itch and they scratched it. And we always say, why, why, why? Why ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't have to be a why. All I have to know is who did it? Did they have intent? And

am I in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know. Right. And the defense will come up with the why. The why is because he's mentally insane. Stop, hard stop, dead stop. That's the only explanation that's going to get him any possibility of a defense. And very quickly, if that's possible, Randy Kessler, you're used to making long and eloquent arguments to juries and appellate judges, but we just agreed that intent can be formed in literally the blink of an eye. But you were saying he's clearly mentally insane. This is a litmus test, a yes, no.

Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity test is the old McNaughton rule brought over to the U.S. from Great Britain? And it's one simple question. Did the suspect know right from wrong at the time of the incident? I don't care what he says he heard voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he did at the time was wrong? said that the old mcnaughton test that's the old mcnaughton test and i think it's a it's very applicable here because when at the time he did that clearly it's going to be easy to argue he did not know that what he was doing was wrong he was acting under some impulse some mental diagnosis some

alternate personality something made him do that clearly what but what you're not that he knew what he did you just pull that out of your out of my what law school books the bottom line is he did this and did he know right from wrong at the moment he did it and you can almost argue that anybody doing something like that must not have known what they were doing why else would they do it there's no other reason it's not somebody he knew it's not somebody he did on why why does it matter So we use a defense lawyer, that's what you have. Moments after allegedly stabbing Irina, Brown captured on video nonchalantly walking the platform of the train station.

Police with weapons drawn and up surround the suspected killer, taking him to the ground and taking him into custody. On the train, Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing a black t-shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around his hands. And here he comes. just walking along cavalierly calmly don't look at me

nothing to see you oops I guess they got my description joining me and All Star Pound makes sense of what we know right now straight out to Ron Bateman former homicide detective

former undercover Narc former sheriff and author of a crime fiction series Silent Blue Tears his new book coming out next week Um, question to you, Ron Bateman. When you know, when you see the police closing in, very often defendants do not run. They try to blend in like Tyler Robinson did after he allegedly shot Charlie Kirk.

He came down off the top of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked with grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what I mean? That's just an example I'm giving you that everyone is familiar with. Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent. We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes. And you'll see him, if you play the video back, you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He had to think about that. And then I believe when he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a lock blade. it actually closed and cut his finger. And that's why all the blood is dripping out on the floor of the train.

But then to further show his intent, he has the wherewithal. Remember, we're talking about a guy who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap. He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity. He takes off the hoodie. He wraps his hand in the hoodie. He tries to conceal his identity. He tries to blend in and walk among the patrons.

Let's not even talk about all the people with the train. that didn't do a thing. That's that's another topic. Not a D-A-M-N thing. Not a thing. In fact, some of them, and just not doing anything to help around it, they actually started videoing her as she's dying.

Okay, I'm glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman, about the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by Brian Coburger to butcher for innocent Idaho students, This is a folding blade used in the murder of Arena to Randy Kessler. Uh-oh. Where's Kessler? Don't see him.

Let's see him. Kessler. Go ahead and get your Kleenex because many people would argue one, two seconds don't matter what they do under the law. The time it takes, and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around, digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he unfolds the knife. unfolds the knife and positions it, that buys me about five more seconds to form intent. Weh, weh, Weh, Kessler. Yeah, well, I don't know what you're going to do.

And I don't know what you want me to do with that. He opened the knife and he did something with it, but did he know what he was doing? Did he think it was him? His argument's going to be some other personality took over. Did he think it was him? Wait, what? Yes. Listen to the videos.

Listen to the audio. Did he think it was who? He did not think it was himself. He thought it was somebody else in his body, somebody else. making him do this. He was obviously mentally disturbed. He didn't form the content. Something in his brain went wrong and made him do that. That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have to use. I don't know what else he has. In the last hours, newly obtained 911 audio and video. Now, this is video from the public transport train. There's plenty of video circulating

out there because many of the train riders, the patrons, instead of trying to help around, started videoing her as she died. Let's see 38 showing Irina getting onto the train and taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs new to the U.S. seeking a better life according to her family. And God bless her soul. Look who is sitting behind her and he's staring at her right now like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on, looks around, and takes a seat fortuitously in front of the defendant. Let's move to 39. I want you to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with a knife and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to see the next frame. Let's see it again. Time right there

under the law to form intent. She comes and sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it, unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move to 40. This video showing a close-up of the defendant's hand. That's Arena's hat. Look, if that's not intent, that is intent. What do you have to say to that? Keep on the video, Kessler. Look at that.

I'm totally going to slow-mo that for the jury. So I've maintained it all along. This is a case about sentencing, right? You can tell me all day long that it's not just about sentencing. You're going to get a conviction. But what made him do that? You say the why doesn't matter. Jury's always want to know why.

And you know what? If there's a mental insanity defense, the Y is going to matter. And that's going to be the only thing he has if he goes to trial to argue is that he was out of his mind. He did not know what he was doing. He was being controlled, possessed, whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise, you've got the intent. You've got the, you've got the conviction if he doesn't use a mental insanity defense. I wonder if he was, quote, possessed all the other 14 times that he committed a crime, some of them violent. This is not age progression. people. This is just a few of his mini arrests. Can I see, Kessler, because I don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler, did you actually just say maybe he was possessed? You're going to bring demonic spirits in as a defense? I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I heard it. I can play it back. You said maybe he was possessed. You're using a late person term. You know, you want me to use a psychological term, schizophrenic, somebody, he thought that he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was in his body, some sort of government

device was in his body. He thought something else was going on. He is not owning this act. He did not say, I don't know why I did this. He's saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened, but they need to scan me, they need to investigate me, they need to figure this out. Something was going on in his brain. And we don't understand brains yet far enough to understand why this happened. But clearly he did not say, I did it, and I'm sorry, or I can't figure out why I did it. He doesn't seem to have any recollection. So it's a mental health defense. It's clearly mental health. I can tell you this is the death knell for the defense.

When a JD starts talking like an MD, I just heard you trying to describe the human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations. I am not. Did you hear me talking to coin? I know that I don't know. But I love you theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to special guest joining us, Andy Con.

He is Director of Victim Services and Advocacy, Crime Stoppers out of Houston, long-time friend and colleague who first introduced me to murderabilia, people making money off murder. Andy Con, how many times have you heard a defense attorney, much like Randy Kessler joining us tonight, state, he didn't know what he was doing? Well, you know what? He knew what train stopped to get off, didn't he? He needed to take off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand, not just the hurt hand that he, you know, he sliced himself, but to change clothes. He got off that train at the very next stop and tried to walk away. Hit it, Andy. You know, the video speaks volumes.

I mean, there's no if answer, but he knew exactly what he was doing. He tried to cover up. But the real story to me is you had a young lady who fled war torn, war torn. Ukraine, only to end up being murdered in the United States. Now, we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's got a rap sheet, yay long, 14 arrests, and in and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in and out of mental hospitals, and so forth. This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure.

This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable. And my position, again, is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into our community to do what they do best, and that's commit crimes. This is not just a North Carolina. It's a national issue. In Houston, we've documented over 200 plus people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as it gets, and I'm hoping that this will ultimately open up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country's history. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist, I want to follow up on what Andy Conjus said. This guy just got out of jail again. Why?

Who let him out of jail? Exactly. And it was mentioned the reform laws. They're not working. 14. When you put up those mugshots, Nancy, and that's not all of them. You think, how could this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there?

in the first place, the governor signing a law in her name, Arina's law. But he even says, look, this isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but it's clearly not enough, meaning it will take away some of the power from the judges to make that decision in letting someone who has priors out of prison. Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name is Judge Teresa Stokes.

Let's listen. In September 2022, Brown arrested on assault on a female and injury to property. April 2024, Brown arrested for misusing 911. May, 24, misusing 911. January 2025, misusing 911. January 2025, Judge Teresa Stokes released Brown the same day he was arrested on a written promise to appear. Brown did not present himself for evaluation. Three weeks later, he is alleged to have killed Irina.

If that order was followed, he would have been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in his murder charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity, and Wiggins again ordered to be evaluated. Police have not identified any motive or linked the attack to mental illness. In the last hours, newly released 911 audio and video. Let's take a look. This video is showing the defendant calmly waiting. to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing, making way for people. And look at everybody,

walking around the blood. Yeah, they didn't help her, but they don't want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes. He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows when the train door opens that this is his exit. And he's leaving. Arana, by the way, is bleeding out dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is not only a state case, but a federal case as well. Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed that are death qualified. What does that mean? Because you want to make an appeal proof, right? Lawyers that are qualified to take on death penalty cases, then he can, after the fact, say, well, I had ineffective assistance of counsel.

So my lawyers didn't understand how to handle a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction. Straightforward, easy as that. The case will get reversed if there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words, you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases, either first chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight. Now, isn't it true Susan Hendricks that he, the suspect, has been sent for evaluation,

mental evaluation, to see if he is competent to stand trial? Yes, absolutely. He is and will be evaluated. I was listening to a prison phone call between him and his sister, and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know if that's because he is insane or he's acting like he does have. a problem. But I think they will, of course, be brought into court. And he will be evaluated. And I think that that's the way the defense will go. But how can you erase these 14 mugshots in all? And the video, there he is. Just like you said, Nancy, planning this out, opening the knife

and doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse call that he felt that they wanted him to do it. He didn't do it. He was told to do it. We'll see if that works. I doubt it. You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone for incompetency and insanity. Explain, in a nutshell, what is incompetency? Well, you have to understand the proceedings. It's not fair. You can't help the lawyer defend you if you're incompetent to stand trial. If you don't understand the proceedings, to get off the hook for murder, you have to have been insane at the time that it happened, that the thing happened.

And incompetency is more a question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings? You need to be able to help in your own defense. And if you're not able to help in your own defense, then you don't have a trial until you are able to assist in your own defense. Nutshell. Kessler, would you agree that competency is being able to assist your lawyers in your defense at your trial? Competent.

You are competent to assist your defense attorneys. Yes. Okay. And insanity is whether you knew. right from wrong at the time of the incident, the time of Arina's killing. They're two very different things. Right. Don't like to agree with you, but yes.

So first, the lawyer's going to try to get him ruled incompetent. Why? Delay, delay, delay. That's the first and the last rule in the defense playbook. Why? People forget about it. Their memories fade. Witnesses actually die.

Important witnesses actually die or move. You can't find them. and the inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can die down. People forget about it. That's why the defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that? Yes, and it's probably easier to find incompetent at the time of trial than insanity at the time. How do you get inside of his mind at that exact moment?

Whereas right now, they can interview him now. We can have psychologists, test him now. It's easier for a judge to say, I'm going to put off the time. trial, then do say, oh, we're going to let him off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's an easier thing to argue for the defense counsel. And you get a second bite at the apple. If you lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the time of the murder. Right.

So if at some point, if he is rehabbed and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity. And there are a host of variations. There's guilty but mentally ill. There's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's guilty, but insane. Just a whole variation of what a jury can come back on. Just throw me a few choices, Kessler.

I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what you call them. It's state by state. Each state calls them different things. But you're giving the jury options. If there are people on the jury that say there's something wrong with him, I can't find that he's a normal person that just intentionally went after this person and did it, I want to give him some minor little break because he's got mental issues,

they'll use one of those other excuses to convict and say he had mental issues, mental, you know, but you're right. You named three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch of different things depending on which date you're in, but there are other options besides murder one. What about it, Andy Kahn? You know, as much as you want to blame the offender and obviously he deserves a lot of blame what happened to this young lady, I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept knowingly allowing him to reenter society time and time again, only to see him reoffend time and time again. And how on the heck do you justify giving someone a no bond, a cash, no cash bond, and say, here, you know, appear in court. That's insane to actually allow someone

with his rap sheet just to walk out of court under the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's driving our system and why the public has just lost faith, because we keep seeing offenders like him that are recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable, and it's a total systematic failure. year. And I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and tired of naming laws after dead people. And now we have a new law named after arena that hopefully others won't end up with the same fate as she has now become. Despite all of this past documented criminal history, when Brown was arrested yet again in January of this past year, a Democrat judge,

who I will add, was a supporter, a strong supporter of former Vice President Kamala Harris, released this insane criminal once again without requiring him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal, someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law to just sign a written promise and come back again another day. This is madness. This monster should have been locked up and arena should still be alive.

From Fox. straight out to Karen Stark, forensic psychologist, renowned TV, radio trauma expert. Karen, wait in. I have to tell you, Nancy. Yes, this guy has been diagnosed I've heard with schizophrenia, but I see intent. He knew to have that knife. He fled after he committed that crime. And when her sister said to him, why did you do that?

Why did you do that to this innocent person? And he said, she was reading my mind, which tells me that he has a rationalization, that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain what he did, which means that he knows the difference. He understands he did something, and he wants to come up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent. I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing. Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide detective, former undercover NARC, and author of a series, Silent Blue Tears.

You can find him at Ron Batemanbooks.com. Ron, the investigators here, much like yourself, have their work cut out for them. They don't have to prove just what happened. They've got the right guy. Now, the state, including investigators, are going to have to prove he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong, Ron. How do you go about doing that? Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which is really obvious. If you didn't know what he was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat? If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was going on, what he did

was right, he would have stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it. He did all those things. He tried to conceal his identity and try to blend into the crowd and blah, blah, blah, blah, try to cover his hand up and all that. But I got to make one point that the community, is crying about that maybe you don't hear Nancy, but I do. What the hell is wrong with the media by keep repeatedly showing this murder over and over again? Thank God your staff didn't do it today. We saw Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor girl staffed a thousand times.

Are we so desensitized that we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect? that her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't learn about it in private like they should have. This is really despicable that the media released this video. Now, you can release stills of the suspect so we can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department, you know, I don't know if it was a PIA that went out,

a public information act request, but they released it and they didn't give it any thought. And it was just for a god darn sound bite. And that's bull crap. That is so desensitized. desensitivity is just, just off the charts. Andy Kahn, he's right. We are caring more about defendant's rights than we are about victims' rights.

And we repeatedly see this with crime scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims that are murdered, and she deserves better. But again, I'm going to close with this. The defendant, fair share of the blame. But this is a total systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue to continue to recycle offenders over and over again and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price.

The only question is, how many more are going to pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform that has taken its toll on all our citizens throughout the country? enough is enough. This has to end. Hey, Nancy. Yeah, jump hand, please. Yeah, but I want to say, you know, we're so, we were so hell-bent on showing this video and over and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which, by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.

Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No, that's we're not, because we just care about this little cool soundbite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible for the victims. And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arenda was actually stabbed. Dr. Coyne, question to you, many people want to believe that Irina's death was instantaneous, that she felt nothing, that one moment she's looking at her phone and the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not what happened, Dr. Coyne. She suffered. No, I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious, you know, within a minute or just less,

but she certainly would have felt that stab wound. And you can see when she looked at her attacker, she certainly would have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before she passed out. And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, Susan, what next? We owe arena something. The United States owes her something. I hope there's real change here. The embassy, U.S. Embassy and Ukraine working to get her body back there, guess what?

Her mom said, no. She loved the United States. That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe her something. I hope that real change comes out of this. If you know or think you know anything about this case, the case is being built by the state and the defense as we go to air tonight, please dial 704-334-6-100 repeat. 704-334-6100.

And let me emphasize, as we go to air, DeCrollers Brown is presumed innocent unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence that proves this guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no, we do not want anyone that was legally insane at the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However, his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero, Officer Ray Barantus, Chalachilla PD, California, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife in three children. American hero, Officer Ray Brantus. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye for that. This is an I-heart podcast.