Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hot car baby death, Doc killed by patient's wife, 'Killer Clown' victim named

Episode Date: August 4, 2017

Parents of a toddler who died after being left behind in a car overnight face murder charges. Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and journalist Robyn Walensky discuss the case with Nancy Grace on this episode. They also look at the case against a man who allegedly shot his wife's doctor dead after the physician refused to give her pain pills and another name added to the list of victims of "Killer Clown" John Wayne Gacy. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. A Gatlinburg couple behind bars in Sevier County facing murder charges after their two-year-old son was left in a car overnight. Investigators suspect that that child was left Thursday afternoon but that child wasn't found until 2 in the afternoon on Friday. A two-year-old child was left locked in a vehicle for at least 12 and maybe as much as 24 hours. The parents can face 51 years in prison, life without parole or even the death penalty.

It's not a legal stretch for a state DA to charge felony murder. The state is sending a message to parents, you have to be more responsible. The worst thing a parent could ever do is think that this wouldn't happen to them. Found dead shortly before 2 p.m. in the tourist Mecca in the middle of the Smoky Mountains, Gatlinburg, Tennessee. What happened? The home where the baby was found coincidentally belongs to Jerry Kirkman, the mayor of Westmoreland. It's a small town in middle Tennessee. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. How did a top boy die in front of the mayor's house? How did that go down? The two-year-old little boy apparently died of heat stroke. Or did he? What will the autopsy reveal? And why was the baby abandoned? Well, for one reason, it was the mayor's grandson.

Now, does that clarify what happened or muddy the water? A two-year-old child found dead after apparently being left in a car overnight. Now let's imagine that just for a moment. And I say apparently dead from being left in a car overnight. But how is it that nobody for an entire evening, night, all night long, until the afternoon, after lunch, 2 o'clock the next day, nobody notices the baby's gone? Is that really what happened? I don't know, but I'm having a tough time in my world, in Nancy Grace's world, understanding how your baby can be gone, what, 24 hours and nobody notices? Then it turns up dead in front of the mayor's house? With me, senior news anchor from the Blaze Radio Network, longtime friend Robin Walensky. Also joining me, forensic expert Joe Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University and death scene investigator who has traveled all around the

country investigating homicide scenes. Both of you, thank you for being with us. Joe Scott, I want to delve in with you, but I've got to establish the facts first. Robin, what exactly am I missing? How does that happen? This is really bizarre and it's heartbreaking. And I think that your theory that the baby might've been killed elsewhere and then been put in the car is definitely a possibility. What strikes me about this story, this is a neighborhood full of vacation rentals, as you mentioned, you know, and when you're in a neighborhood with vacation rentals. Robin, Robin, Robin. Yes.

Let me tell you something. When I was a little girl, all the way up through high school, that was the big deal. Of course, you know, my dad worked for the railroad, Alan, Alan Duke, just like your dad, 40 plus years. My mom worked as an accountant for a big company they would get off on friday robin would get would get off five o'clock the car would be packed right and would start driving and our vacation was the weekend we would drive to gatlinburg tennessee would get there that night just enough to walk up and down the strip, get a caramel apple or a candy apple,

see the Smoky Mountains, then would wake up there the next morning and would spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday looking at the Smoky Mountains and being in every nook and cranny of Gatlinburg, Tennessee. And then Sunday afternoon,

we'd drive all the way back and that would be our family vacation okay and now my twins go to the beach for 10 days and they're like I'm like I cannot believe you people anyway so Gatlinburg Tennessee I haven't been there in a long time but it was just yes just what you said it's full of tourists because it's beautiful. How could you miss a baby in the car? See, that's the thing. I mean, I've been to the area myself, and you have the people. People are coming and going, as we stated, okay?

So that's painting a picture of the neighborhood, of people coming and going, vacation rentals. People are into their own thing. They don't know who's living next door. They don't know what cars are parked in the driveway every day, Nancy. That's really the issue here. Robin Walensky, you're right. People coming and going.

And there are a lot of rentals and a lot of tourists. But in that kind of neighborhood, which is very, very nice. I mean, this home is like a dream home up in the mountains. I'm just very surprised that no one knew that. But forget about the tourists or the neighbors. What about the family? What about the mom and the dad and the grandparents or whoever put the baby in the car? To start with, I've got another question and I'm going to go to Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how can we tell if the baby died of heat stroke or the baby died of some other reason and was set in the car?

Well, they're going to play their cards really close to the vest here, Nancy, relative to the examination. I can imagine that the state police are conducting toxicological examination on the child. They're not going to release a lot of information to begin with, but just from a practical standpoint, you're going to be looking for signs of, first off, dehydration. Signs, for instance, that the child was restrained and was probably vomiting in the car, probably gastrointestinal problems relative to hyperthermia. The temperature at that point in time for both of those days was in the high 80s outside of the car. So you can add generally about, I don't know, probably 12 to 15 degrees internal temperature. Couple that with anxiety of being strapped into a car and being abandoned by your parents potentially.

And this becomes a nightmare scenario. Well, I hear that, but that's all about a hot car death. My question is, if the child died from some other reason and was then put in the car to look like a hot car death, how can we tell that? Well, what we're going to be looking for, if the child was killed elsewhere by some other means, the first thing is going to be postmortem changes. We're going to be looking at how has the body changed since that point in time of death. And there are a lot of different factors that we'll look at relative to things like rigor mortis and post-mortem lividity. Whoa, slow it down. Slow down the train.

Don't just throw out rigor mortis and lividity. Break it down. Break it down. Well, the stiffening of the body after death takes place in a very regimented manner. And so if the body, if what they're going to have to do relative to the information that's coming to the police via the family and per their interviews, they're going to match up those changes in the body relative to the timeline that the parents are giving them.

And this is where people generally screw up when they're trying to conceal a death. They don't realize that we will read into what we're seeing at the scene and try to marry that up with what they're saying and see if it makes sense. That is the degree that the body is stiffened, rigor mortis. How has the blood settled in the body? If the child is in a seated position and they find the child. Okay, right there. Let me talk to you about that because rigor mortis can mimic, rigor mortis can look the same whether the child died right there or whether the child died in the house, depending on the position of the child at the time of death. But what you just said, the pooling of the blood.

Yes, most definitely. sitting right there in a car seat, you'll find the baby's blood pooled in the rear end, the legs, the toes, the feet. The body sinks. Like if you're lying flat, the body sinks to your back, your buttocks, the back of your legs. It sinks down with gravity. That's what he's talking about. What else can we tell if the child died anywhere else? Well, if the child died anywhere else? Well, if the child died anywhere

else, I think probably the most obvious thing, Nancy, are going to be signs that we're going to be looking for relative to trauma. Okay. That is if this was, say, for instance, some kind of airway blockage, like a suffocation or a mechanical asphyxiation where a ligature was used, we're going to look for signs in the eyes. What about if the child was suffocated with a pillow and then sat out in the car? How could you tell that? Well, one of the things that we'll look for is when people are suffocated many times, that means that the mouth and the nose will be depressed. A tremendous amount of weight will be placed. There's a little attachment in our mouth that a lot of people don't know about called a frenulum. It's at the bottom and the top, and it kind of connects our upper lip and our lower lip to our gum line. And what happens many times is that area gets a tiny

little laceration in it, and it is easy to spot. Also, in certain cases of suffocation, we can still pick up on petechiae. And Nancy, as you well know, petechiae just doesn't miraculously appear. There has to be some type of pressure applied. What that means is the tiny, tiny little veins in your eyes. Have you ever woken up one morning and you've got a big red thing in your eye? Something like that, except sometimes it's so microscopic they have to see it under a microscope during autopsy. When you're strangled or asphyxiated, those blood vessels explode in your eye, and they're so tiny they're not always visible to the naked eye, but a medical examiner can see it.

So with that in mind, we'd see those kind of particular explosions in the eye and as Joe Scott Morgan was describing other indicia of another type of death be it innocent or nefarious and we don't know we don't know if it was heat stroke which it seems that's what everyone's thinking or that's suggested because the child's in the car okay we don't don't know what happened, one way or the other. Back to Robin Walensky. Now, the neighbors are saying the mayor of Westmoreland was not living in that home. Who, if anyone, Robin, was living there at the time the baby was found dead? Well, here's what we think.

The parents, the names are Anthony and Jade Phillips. The woman, Jade, is the daughter of the mayor are anthony and jade phillips uh the woman jade is the daughter of the mayor and she is a working person she was apparently at work and the dad is a stay-at-home dad and we are we know from the police uh situation that one of the parents actually called police but they're not saying if it was mommy or daddy. So the mom was out to work. Let me just think this thing through. The mom was out to work. Does she work regular hours like, you know, eight to five, eight to six, nine to five, something like that? Or does she work at night? That part of it is unclear, but the baby was found at two o'clock in the afternoon. So if

she worked a regular day job, a nine to five, she was not home. But we don't know that for a fact. The Gatlinburg Police Department and the TBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, both are declining requests to release the incident report, citing it being an ongoing investigation. We don't know right now where the investigation stands, but we know that neighbors are telling us that the mayor did not live there. However, by all accounts, this is the mayor's grandson. Would that be correct, Robin Walensky? Yeah, he is the grandson, but there's a couple of children's type toys that were out on the lawn. So perhaps, and again, you know, this is an assumption, perhaps the daughter and his son-in-law were living there with the baby. Maybe they were just there for a couple of days. It's very unclear, but we know for sure that Jerry Kirkland

was not actually in the home that he owns at the time when the baby was in the car found in the driveway. There was plenty of evidence a child lived there. I mean, you can't get up and leave in the morning without seeing the baby's things all over the yard. And I get that the mom was working and the dad was a stay-at-home dad. But how do you come home at night after work? And I'm assuming this is working the right hour, the normal hours. How do you come home at night and not notice your baby's not there i mean when did the baby get in the car and how do you go all day and all night and nobody notices the baby's not there how does that happen joe scott what do we know i i don't know scratching my head over this as well how do you go for 24 24 hour period n, and not have an awareness that this child who you are responsible for taking care of is not within, well, I'm not going to say within arm's reach.

My children, it was the case, particularly at this age they were, but I don't understand how you can go missing a child when you have these two that are supposed to be responsible for the child. And that period of time, that period of time, if in fact that child was strapped in that car, it's a sufficient amount of time for that child to have succumbed potentially in this environment. People think that if we're just talking about a heat-related death, we're thinking, you know, well, it's in the Smoky Mountains, it's nice and cool and all that. That's ridiculous. These cars heat up tremendously. And here's another thing. You've mentioned this idea of maybe the child was placed there after another event. People panic. Sometimes they do and they place a child in the car. But what else could be involved here? Well, let's think about, you know, because I have to reach out and try to understand this as a parent. Are these people impaired some way? Are they, you know, impaired some way that would diminish their capacity to be able to go out and take care of their child and track the child down and say, gee, where's our child?

Right now, I think there are far more questions than there are answers. You know, a neighbor who owns the nearby Laurel Springs Lodge Bed and Breakfast says that he walked up to Laurel Avenue after he heard police and fire trucks go by. And he says he saw the first responders at the door of the house and then heard somebody shrieking either from pain or misery, screaming out of pain. We also learn, as Robin Walensky just said, people didn't know exactly who was living there. Because it's made up, the neighborhood's made up so much of rentals, so many people come and go. So they didn't really know who was there. But now we know it's the mayor's daughter, Jade, and husband, Anthony. The mom works during the day, but still that doesn't explain to me, Robin, how she didn't notice at night the baby wasn't there. Yeah. You know, again,

was somebody drinking? Was somebody on drugs? Is this also some sort of a cover-up? You know, people scream. Was it a fake scream did someone say oh my gosh you know my baby's been killed and maybe they already knew that the baby was dead I mean who knows it's very odd to me was the scream even faked or was it really someone screaming in a panic that their child was dead I think the circumstances it just does not add up it's too much time that this child is gone. This little boy was only two years old. You mean to tell me you lost track of him for 12 hours in a car?

It makes no sense to me. Now, you're saying 12. You're saying 12. We're saying 24. Where are you getting the 12? There were reports that he was in the car for at least 12 hours. There are reports out in the media that he was in the car for at least 12 at least 12 hours there are reports out in the media that he was in the car for at least 12 hours is what they're saying hmm so if the baby's in the car 12 hours

that means overnight but why would you put the baby in the car at night and then leave it it makes so to me it has to be from the end of the work day at least the day before and the baby's found at 2 p.m. Well, that's the thing. If you do the math, let's say at least 12 hours, Nancy, you're talking about someone putting the baby in the car, let's say, at 2 a.m. in the wee hours when it's dark, and then the baby is found at 2 p.m. What happened in that at least 12-hour time frame? It's very suspicious to me. Why are you putting a child in the car at that

time of night? That makes absolutely no sense at this point in time. The child's found it too. You're actually heading into the hottest part of the day by that period of time. If we back that time up to the late afternoon or early evening the day before, you're still looking at a child being without a parent, being strapped in a car for that period of time, rebreathing their own air in this environment. They don't have access to water. They don't have access to food.

So this is very troubling, Nancy, very troubling. Well, this is what we know at this hour. We have confirmed that Anthony and Jade Phillips have been indicted by a grand jury on charges of first-degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect. Now, what does that mean about the cause of death? The case remains open. And now, on Crime Stories. Michael Jarvis went to the St. Joseph Medical Center with the intention of killing Dr. Todd Graham.

Graham was a beloved orthopedic doctor. Jarvis made that choice to take his life. Jarvis confronted Dr. Graham in the parking lot when he would not prescribe opioids for his wife's chronic pain. He did what we ask our doctors to do. Don't over prescribe opioids. Now we head to Indiana where a well-respected and much beloved doctor is shot dead? Shot dead? Why? As the evidence is being uncovered and the investigation goes on, it seems that the murder may have been committed by a man angry this doctor would not prescribe opioids. Opioids, painkillers, dope like Oxycontin, Oxycodone, I think Fentanyl, all sorts of drugs equals opioids. Remember in Wizard of Oz where Dorothy tries to cross the big field of poppies? She got sleepy because they're poppies.

Poppies make opium. Opium is the natural derivative of opioid. That's where it comes from. Then there's synthetic opioids as well. But to shoot a doctor dead because he won't write a prescription? Okay, Robin Walensky joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan, Robin's senior news anchor, Blaze Radio Network. Robin, it's hard for me to take in. First of all, I've never asked for opioids. But second, if a doctor, I remember when a doctor wouldn't give me what I wanted for John David's skin issue.

It was like a death-eating virus was eating his foot, okay? And I did not like it one bit. I didn't shoot her in the head, all right? In a couple of weeks, in a couple of weeks, it went away, no thanks to her. But it kind of got well on its own. But what happened this is unbelievable in that this the shooter either his wife was in so much pain he was off the deep end and really wanted the pills for his wife or he was on the brink because he was the addict and he was taking the pills that That's what I believe is what is in play here, that maybe he was dipping into his wife's little pill box and he went off the deep end wanting the

medication. He tracks down this Dr. Nancy, Todd Graham, 56 years old. He's a married man with three kids. And he goes to this appointment and the doctor's like, nope, no more medicine for you. And he was very upset. And apparently this Michael Jarvis character, 48, is lurking in the parking lot. You know how there's these medical office buildings and the next door is the rehab center and it's all kind of like an office complex. He apparently is lurking and waiting in the parking lot. And when the doctor goes from one office building to the other, they have this big confrontation and argument in the parking lot. And there are other people around.

And the guy actually says to the witnesses, oh, you better get out of here. And then he goes and he shoots the doctor. Whoa. Dr. Todd Graham, 56-year-old, very beloved doctor, was shot dead by Michael Jarvis of Mishawaka St. Joseph County authorities say and the shooting took place as Robin Walensky is telling us in the parking lot at St. Joseph Rehab Institute and that is where near where Dr. Todd Graham worked at South Bend

Orthopedics now that's giving me a clue right there that he's an orthopedic surgeon or an orthopedic doctor where you go for back pain or knee pain. Jarvis's wife had had a 1045 a.m. appointment that morning with the doctor. Graham told the couple that he would not prescribe any opioid drugs. And Jarvis got crazy. And they had an argument right then and there in the office. Jarvis, 48, came back while the doctor was going from the orthopedic building to the rehab. Right there, as Robin Walensky is telling you. They started an argument again.

Well, they didn't. I guarantee you it was the husband that started the argument. Then Jarvis follows Dr. Graham as he went into the other building. That must have been a horrible feeling. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator. When you know the person is following you, when you know they won't quit arguing, but how could the doctor have known this guy was going to erupt into gunfire? He has no idea that this is coming, I would imagine, Nancy. However, doctors in this environment deal with agitated families and certainly patients on a regular basis. And many times they'll remove themselves from circumstances to try to diffuse the situation. Unfortunately, in this particular instance, that didn't happen.

This guy actually tracked him down. And going back to what Robin said, I found it very interesting that prior to shooting and killing this man, the shooter actually stated, you guys better get out of here. So, you know, that tells me, you know, that he knows that trouble's coming. At least the shooter actually stated, you guys better get out of here. So, you know, that tells me, you know, that he knows that trouble's coming, at least the shooter does. Now, whether or not the doctor was aware of that. You know what that means? That means there goes any suggestion that this was just an angry argument,

and he pulls a gun that he happens to have stuck down his pants. But to tell people standing around, hey, you better leave right now, he knew, he planned for this to happen. Now, we looked at the online obituary for Graham, and it says that he is survived by a wife and three children. The doctor has a wife and three children. I mean, you go to work one day, Robin Walensky, and you come home. Your children are without their father. You're a widower, you're a widow, bam, because your husband wouldn't prescribe opioids. And that's how it happens, Robin. I mean, I remember, I waved goodbye to Keith, he held his arm out the window and drove

away. I never saw him again. That was it. And the shock, this family must be going through, Robin. Yeah, you know, I get the chills when you talk about your personal experience. It's really chilling. You know, it reminds me of people on the morning of 9-11 that never kissed their loved one goodbye as well. It's just a terrible feeling. Keep in mind, being an orthopedic surgeon or a doctor is a pretty low-risk profession. I mean, you think of professions that are high-risk, Nancy, that being an orthopedic doctor is not on the list. Well, guess what I found out, Robin? A Notre Dame University spokesperson said that Jarvis the shooter was an, quote call part-time parking attendant and groundskeeper at Notre Dame

University and that Dr. Graham was a consulting physician at the school so I wonder if somehow he as the grounds person I mean I'm just thinking about at our school or my church or I remember it um at HLN CNN or and at the DA's office I was friends with everybody that was in quote operations they would fix you know the cameras or in the DA's office they would fix ever all the machinery that we use the copy machines the everything uh things you used at grand jury to present cases. You get to know these people that you work with. They're your colleagues. I wonder if that's how they met. I mean, they had to be. They both worked there in Notre Dame in two very different capacities. Right. And it's very possible that he was stalking him, knew his schedule, knew that he

went from one building to the next building, knew all the different places where he was a consultant and had his schedule and, you know, typical stalker behavior. And then think about this. He was probably really ticked off this guy. If he's the drug addict and not the wife, if he's the one who's addicted, he's probably really desperate for his drugs and then takes the gun with him. To me, it sounds like premeditation. You know, he's actually saw the wife that morning. Dr. Todd Graham saw Jarvis's wife there at South Bend Orthopedics that morning. But by all accounts, the wife had no idea what her husband was about to do. I mean, we can speculate, but I find it really hard to believe he did this because his wife was in so much pain. I mean, I would have just gone to a different doctor, you know?

I'm not one for doctor shopping. If one doctor won't help, I mean, I'm constantly telling my mom, both of you have met my mom, let's go to a different doctor because she's always in so much pain with her legs and back. Let's just try something else. Let's do something else. I would never dream of hunting down the one doctor in the parking lot and shoot him in the head for Pete's sake. So at this point, we're trying to figure out, was Jarvis a drug fiend? Had he been getting

illegal opioids? Was his wife involved in any way as this mom prepares for life without her husband and the children face the rest of their lives without their father. What do we mean by opioid, Joe Scott Morgan? Well, opioid, as you mentioned earlier, Nancy, most opioids are created in a lab now. They're synthetic versions of the original opioids that you get from the poppy plant. It's a highly, highly addictive medication that's meant to knock down pain. And when I say highly addictive, it is as addictive as many drugs that we see on the streets, particularly like heroin. People go on and on about the heroin problem in the country. Opioids relative to prescription medications are just as dangerous,

and this is the problem. When people are denied these drugs, when you're telling someone that's dependent upon them, no, this will cause them to take desperate measures many times. And so many people are on these meds now. It sounds like this Dr. Jarvis took a step to say no to somebody, that he dared tell this guy no. I'm with Robin on this. I think that, you know, thinking about this, you're trying to tell me that he stepped into the breach on behalf of his wife. This sounds like somebody who was very, very desperate for drugs. And this absence of drugs can drive them to insanity many times and do things that they wouldn't normally do. But this guy had a weapon with him. Opioids. What are we talking about? Well, I think probably one of the things that comes to mind most frequently, people think

about things like OxyContin, which is prescribed. for instance, in his case, this doctor's case, he would give this traditionally to patients that had undergone some type of orthopedic surgery. Keep in mind, this guy works on knees and shoulders and backs and necks and all these sorts of things. Give them these medications like OxyContin to knock the pain down just so that the person can get into rehab and begin to strengthen that muscle and that structure around that bone that has been fixed. And this is intense pain that these people go through. I've had several surgeries on my shoulders and that sort of thing. And the pain is unbearable many times. And sometimes you need something to help. Well, this is what I've learned. Opium is the hardened juice from the unripe seed pods of poppy plants. It's a yellowish brown or brownish black colored substance.

It can be solid or sticky. Medical professionals prescribe it for pain killing. And now it's being, being used for recreation. it creates a euphoric and calming state i'm talking about heroin big o black stuff block gum hot dover powder i mean there's a million names dope smack h train thunder black tar china white horse junk antifreeze brown sugar henry horse skag hero hell dust it fentanyl, which on the street is Apache, China Girl, China White, Dance Fever, Friend, Goodfella,

King Ivory, Murder 8, TNT, Tango, Cash. I mean, it goes on. Then morphine, which is a painkiller. It's a primary derivative of opium. M, Miss Emma, Monkey, White Stuff, Dreamer. Then you got codeine, hydrocodone, oxycodone. For codone, schoolboy, cough syrup. T3s, which is Tylenol plus three with codeine.

Then you got hydrocodone, Vyx, Vyco, Norco, Hydro. Then you got oxycodone, Ox, Oxycontin, Oxycet. I mean, there. Have you ever heard of any of those, Robin Walensky? A few. I've heard of a few of them. And I had some massive dental work done in the last month. And the doctor, one of the medications was one of those on your list.

And I didn't even feel it. I was just afraid. You know, after my knee surgery, which, you know, you know how that happened. I've have broken one foot trying to spy on the babysitter who was taking care of the twins. Okay. I did not learn my lesson. Okay. Then flash forward a couple of years, Luke is at soccer practice, Lucy, and I'm convinced someone will try to kidnap her. And, um, if I leave, but I needed to go jog. That's my only chance to jog while she was at soccer practice. So I find a stretch of road where I can jog. And if I go back

and forth over and over and over in the same spot, I can keep my eye on her the entire time. Little does she know I stuck a bow in her head just so I could identify her at a distance. So anyway, to get to that stretch of road, I had to her at a distance. So anyway, to get to that stretch of road, I had to jump over a fence. So I climb up the fence. It's about four and a half feet tall. And I don't know what I was thinking and jump down from the top. Okay. Goodbye ACL. That was ripped right along with the meniscus. And they offered me a painkiller. My husband went to the, you know, the doctor,

I mean the pharmacy and brought it home. I'm like, if the twins see that there'll be dope things by tonight. Just flush it right down the commode. Don't even put it in the trash. I was so freaked out about an opioid, you know, Oxycontin, you know,

so it, it gets a hold of you perfectly normal everyday workaday people parents white collar executives you name it get hooked on this and they manage to function seemingly normally hooked on opioids well this is what i know two families completely destroyed because of drugs. And now on Crime Stories. Cook County Sheriff's officers identified James Byron Hawkinson as a victim of notorious serial killer John Wayne Gacy. With Hawkinson's discovery, there are now six Gacy victims who still need to be identified. He was killing so many people that he was burying people on top of each other. Jimmy Hawkinson was just 16 when he left Minnesota, arrived in Chicago, and disappeared.

John Wayne Gacy, a name that has instilled fear for years. How many little boys did he kill, did he murder? Often called the clown killer because he would show up at birthday parties and events as a clown and then lure little boys to horrific molestations and death murder of little boys their remains found all in the crawl spaces of his home John Wayne Wayne Gacy. Yes, we've heard of him, but now, believe it or not, breaking news connected to John Wayne Gacy. And who better to discuss it, to analyze it, to break it down and put it back together again than death investigator, forensic professor at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott

Morgan. You know, I try to put John Wayne Gacy's name out of my mind, okay? I don't want to buy his art. I don't want anything to do with him. Why is he rearing his ugly head again now, Joe Scott? After all of these years, Nancy, a bright spot. We've got a young boy at the time, he was only 16, that has been missing, has finally been identified. 40 years later, been identified, and his family now knows what happened to him and where he wound up. It's very sad, but again, it's one of the things we're about in forensic science, and that is closure, closure. And the fact that this monster got his hands on this poor young man, hopefully the family will have some peace and rest now after all of this time. John Wayne Gacy is one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history. From 1972 to 1978, he lured or forced 33, repeat, 33 boys that we know of. And let me stress that.

How many more are there that we don't know about? Lured or forced them, many of these boys he employed at his so-called construction business, lured them to his home in the suburbs outside of Chicago where he murdered them, sexually assaulting his victims as he tortured them to death, and then buried all but six of them beneath his own home. Neighbors there in Norwood Park Township, Illinois, knew Gacy for appearances at children's parties where he performed as Pogo the Clown, a character he later painted and sketched many, many times behind bars. Now, he was convicted of killing 33 people.

But here's the problem. Identifying the remains of all of his victims has taken decades. Recently, we've been helped with advances in forensic technology and DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. This latest victim, I wish you could see his face. James Byron Hankinson, just had turned 16, was murdered by John Wayne Gacy in 1976. And as we go to air here on SiriusXM today,

his remains have finally been identified. Investigators using DNA evidence to ID one of seven remaining unknown victims. Victims of John Wayne Gacy, serial killer who raped and murdered dozens,

dozens of boys labeled the killer clown or the clown killer. Cook County Sheriff's Department say the newly identified victim, James Byron was killed the summer of 1976. Police found the body and 26 other dead bodies in Gacy's crawlspace of his home in December 78. All this time, all this time, his parents have wondered where he was. Joe Scott, can you imagine? No, no, I can't. And his mom... Is this the age of your boy? Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's just absolutely heartbreaking. This poor kid's mom went to her grave, I think in 2007 or 2008,

not knowing whatever happened to her son. But one of the really compelling parts of this is that there was a nephew in this family who had never met this young man. He wasn't even born yet. Yeah. And amazingly enough, the young man just became fascinated with this case and kept pushing and pushing and pushing the rest of the family to get behind his efforts to get the body identified. And what happened was they had an unidentified body.

As you had mentioned, there were several of them. And because of this kid's mother, who was the sister to the victim, and a brother, they got familial DNA and compared it. And they came to the conclusion that there was very strong evidence that the remains of this young man were actually their long-lost brother that had passed away at the hands of Gacy, that was murdered, that was slaughtered, and placed underneath this man's house with all of these other victims. It just hurts me so much for the mom to have gone her whole life not knowing what happened. Just thinking her son must have run away. Not having any idea where he was. I mean, it's just heartbreaking. And I wonder, Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the perfect person to ask.

I know so many bodies were found in the crawl space of his home. What a freaky feeling that must be to come home and know your murder victims are buried in your house. That must have been some sort of a sick thrill that he got from burying all of them there in his own home. But I can't help but believe, Joseph Scott, that there are other bodies in other places that are right now still not credited to him. Oh, yeah. I would imagine, Nancy, that there are. You know, that this person, Gacy, I hesitate to call him a man,

would go and treat other human beings like pieces of garbage and discard them and throw them away beneath his house. And no telling how many are out, just out there that no one will ever know about. He took that to his grave when he, you know, received the death penalty and finally was lethally injected. Curious about this, he took all of these bodies, and this is not a big house that we're talking about, Nancy. This is kind of a ranch-style home. It doesn't obviously have a basement. We're talking about a crawl space. He would have to enter in through a small hatch in the floor and drag these bodies beneath the house. And after a period of time, he had so many bodies, Nancy, beneath his house, he had to

begin stacking the bodies on top of one another. And interestingly enough, before this young man's body was identified, there was another body that was identified that was not too far away from this young man's body. And that body was identified in 2011. And again, these numbers began to be whittled down. The police do not believe that all of his victims were beneath the floorboards of that house. They still think that probably three or four are still out there, but they credit them to Gacy. The problem with this is as the bodies begin to decompose, it's kind of like a layer cake, if you will. And if it collapses, it collapses in and of itself. And this is a huge problem for investigators because it becomes what we refer to as stratified. And you get what's referred to as well as co-mingling of remains. That is, when the skeleton becomes disarticulated, it begins just by the nature of things to mix and mingle with other skeletons. And it makes it a real nightmare for these investigators.

Think back to when this happened. DNA was not even on the horizon. It didn't come into, even enter into our lexicon really as far as a crime-solving tool until like 85, when Sir Alec Jeffers over in England used it to solve a case of a double homicide, rape homicide over there. And it's only been until recently that we've been able to use this new science. I think it gives us a lot of hope moving forward that we can bring closure. Well, what about this? There are still six unidentified victims killed by John Wayne Gacy. And of course, he's never given it up who the victims were, how he met them, how he kidnapped them or tortured them or lured them, nothing. And those are six bodies that we know of.

I still think that somewhere he's got another cache of bodies, somewhere. And then for whatever reason started hiding them in his home. I guarantee you that there are bodies somewhere else, but no one knows where or when a body is found. It's just like, oh, we found this body. Nobody connects it back to John Wayne Gacy. You know what? I wonder, I don't think it's better that way, but I wonder if it's better that way because the parents don't have to then think about what their child endured before his death. I mean, I still have cases that I investigated or prosecuted and or prosecuted or covered that still to this day get me so upset like Shasta and Dylan Groney. I'll never, ever get over what happened in that case

and many, many, many other ones, what the little victims endured. But for today, for today, we have the resolution on one more case. Robin Lewinsky, Joseph Scott Morgan. Thank you. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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