Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Hot' teacher charged in illicit relationship with middle school boy & Mom to tot killer: 'You're evil!'

Episode Date: March 5, 2018

Florida middle school teacher Stephanie Peterson Ferri allegedly carried on an illicit relationship with a 14-year-old male student, sending him nude photos and giving him marijuana. Nancy Grace looks at what the 26-year-old woman is accused of doing. Nancy is joined by defense lawyer Robin Ficker, analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Atlanta Juvenile Judge Ashley Willcott, & reporter Jennifer Dzikowski. The mother of 2 children who died at the hands of their nanny ended her testimony at the accused killer's trial by yelling “You’re evil and you love this!” Nancy discusses the trial of Yoselyn Ortega with reporter John Lemley and forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. A married middle school science teacher. Wow, when I think of my science teacher, I don't think nude photo at all. That just doesn't come to mind. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on Sirius XM 132. Wow. To Jennifer Zekowski, heavy.com reporter. You know, Jennifer, first of all, I love heavy.com. I can look everything up in a heartbeat. And it's an awesome website.

And I'm glad you're with us today. Just give it to me fast and furious. How do you put the words middle school science teacher and nude photos in the same sentence, Jennifer. How do you string that together? Right, right, exactly. It's really horrifying. Horrifying to think if you have a child that age. I'm not a parent myself. I do have nephews that age who I completely adore. Well, let me just interrupt you right there. Jennifer, you must run out right now and get two twins like I did. You can get them at Walmart in the tire section.

It's the best thing that ever happened to me. There are many people on this panel right now that lived through my pregnancy with me. That was something. But let me tell you something. You don't risk your life to give birth and then spend every waking moment and every penny you earn all into your children to find out. They've been looking at their science teacher's nude photos that she's trying to have relations with them and even provides him pot and a bowl to smoke it in. Hello? Help me out, Jennifer.

Yes, that's exactly what happened. What really, I guess what started with all of this, the boy was her student in seventh grade. In eighth grade, it was reported that he became her teacher's aide. And apparently what happened is the boy did not have his own smartphone. She allowed him to use her phone and access his Instagram account. Once he left the classroom, she got onto his account and sent a message or figured out which account was his, sent a message to him. And so this is how the atrocious saga kind of unfolded. Wait, are you telling me somehow all I've heard so far, Jennifer Skalsky, is that he didn't have a smartphone?

Okay. Neither do my children. Okay. Neither do my children. Okay. And Ashley, you and I were just, just talking about a drama that unfolded at the children's fourth grade class where a bunch of students, and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet, were texting each other messages. I don't know if they were bully messages. I don't know if they had ugly words in them. I don't know exactly what was in the text messages.

But honey, you know, I stomped right up to the principal and said, I want to get to the bottom of this text scandal amongst the 10-year-olds. And she told me that the twins were not part of it. Well, I stomped back to the car and immediately burst into tears. I was so grateful, you know, that they were not part of it and that the drama hadn't already started in the fourth grade. And now I have to hear about this woman who parents don't even give him a cell phone for reasons I just laid out. And she gives him her cell phone. Did I get that right?

So she could send him nude photos and that ends up with them having S-E-X? Yes, that is exactly what happened. So in how this became, how his parents eventually found out, it's kind of strange how it did unfold and very lucky for another teacher at the school. Apparently, the boy had gone to another teacher and asked if he could mentor him. That teacher, a male teacher, called the boy's parents and said, would it be okay to mentor your son? You know, he came to me asking. And the mom thought that was a little bit weird and questioned the boy. She jokingly said, you know, oh, is he going to molest you? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait wait why would you joke about that i know what okay hold on excuse me jennifer as much as i love heavy.com dr bethany marshall la

psychoanalyst we need a shrink guys with me robin fickerprofile defense attorney out of the Maryland area. Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst. Juvenile judge Ashley Wilcott, who has just launched her own website, childcrimewatch.com. Jennifer Zukowski, heavy.com reporter. Back to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Why would you just suddenly say to your child, is your teacher going to molest you? Is that appropriate? Nancy, first of all, I'm not sure I even believe that the mother said that. It's very hard to believe. But if she did, it's highly inappropriate. The only thought that comes to my mind is if this boy was already being groomed by this older female teacher, that he might have become hypersexual because that's

one of the things we see with molestation victims is they become highly sexualized. And then maybe the mother had observed this and began to wonder about her son's behavior. It's hard to believe that she joked about it, but maybe she was trying to investigate into changes in her son's behavior that she was observing. Before I go back to heavy.com reporter Jennifer Zagowski, joining me just outside the courtroom is allegedly having sex with a middle school student sending nude photos providing him pot and a bowl to smoke it in i mean she looks like a cover girl that should be on the front of sports illustrated the photo i have of her is she's out on the ocean fishing, deep sea fishing in a swimsuit. She looks like an Olympian. And all that is right down the drain. Her education, her youth, her beauty, because she's

probably going to end up rotting in jail, Robin. She can't have sex with a boy that's 14 or a girl that's 14 and and every teacher i'm sure knows that you know the sending of the artwork to him is one thing but actually consummating this if indeed there is proof that it was consummated that's a big problem what artwork well i'm talking about the photo oh the nude explicit photos of herself she sent to him from her own cell phone, that? I hardly thought of nude photos as artwork when you're sending them to a 14-year-old. Is that what you're talking about, Robin Ficker? Every 14-year-old boy can get a picture of a nude attractive woman on his cell phone. I don't think that's the huge problem. The huge problem is,

is that apparently it went much further than, than trading photos. Okay. Right there, Ashley Wilcott, you are the juvenile court judge. Oh, see, I would have a big problem with a teacher sending John David or Lucy nude photos at age 14. I have a huge problem with it. She's a predator. It doesn't matter what his age is in terms of it's your student, it's a child, it's a juvenile. It's not appropriate. It crossed many, many lines and results in criminal charges. Back to Jennifer Skowski, heavy.com reporter. So if you could just tell me concisely what we know. The boy comes home and tells his mother what? After she reportedly said, what is, is he going to molest you? If she really jokingly said that, what was reported was that the boy then broke down crying saying, quote, anyone could molest you. That's what he said, according to the police.

So after that statement, the parents of the boy, they had a feeling that this was Stephanie, because the boy was visiting her classroom on a daily basis, and they knew that she would often buy him McDonald's. I believe as far as what I've seen, that's as far as they knew it was going. But obviously that must have raised some red flags, considering that they thought of her right away. So after that conversation, the teen did go on to tell his parents that he was in fact having a sexual relationship with his teacher, Stephanie, who of course, you know, told him not to tell anybody about what was happening or they'd be in trouble. And then after telling his parents about the abuse, police went on to interview the boy. Stephanie was arrested the next day. So they obviously by that point already had evidence.

They were provided with provocative photos of Stephanie, one showing her nude in the shower. Then investigators also said, you know, both the teacher and boy exchanged photos of their sexual organs with Stephanie allegedly using Snapchat to send the photos. So with that, probably thinking that they'll get lost and there won't be any proof. childcrimewatch.com. You know, Ashley, everyone is acting like the photos, the nude photos are no big deal. I find them to be a big deal. There's a reason I haven't given the twins a cell phone yet. Okay. There's a reason I, when they're on their iPads, I'm in the room with them. There's a reason for that because I want to try and keep them safe. And it seems to me, I mean, I haven't even touched on

the alleged child rape of a 14 year old boy, a boy that had just turned 14, a boy that broke down in tears, crying when he told his mom what had happened. Allegedly, this middle school science teacher had taken him out alone on many occasions alone to have sex with this little boy. Okay. Exchanging nude photos is the tip of the iceberg. There are allegations she gave him marijuana and showed him how to smoke it out of a bowl. You're not supposed to know all that when you have just had your 14th birthday, Ashley. No. And so sending the nude pictures is called grooming. And that's

how she started it. And he's the victim. No 14 year old, no teenager has the capacity, brain development to make good decisions and to know what's right, what's wrong. How do I make a good decision? That's why she's the criminal. He's the victim. It's just like you said with the 10 year olds with texting, they don't have the brain development capacity to know how to say things well or correctly or that it's not hurtful. They don't have the ability. This 14-year-old had absolutely no ability to know what to do next or how to handle when a teacher sends him nude pictures. She was grooming him. A teacher who taught at New Smyrna Beach Middle School in Florida just arrested on allegations she had a sex relationship with a 14-year-old boy.

And here is the kicker to Dr. Bethany Marshall. She seemingly was in a happy marriage. Her husband, a firefighter. I know. Isn't it shocking? I saw the photo. He's so nice looking. They're a beautiful couple. And I want to say something about these photos, though, because this is bugging me, too. Not only is sending a photo a part of the grooming process, as Ashley said, but child sexual abuse is not just having sex with a child. It's stimulating the child to feel feelings that they're not yet prepared to handle. Okay. So child sexual abuse often starts with showing photos. That's where it starts. That's where the grooming process starts because especially with young boys, they're just beginning to get erections or they're just beginning to become sexual beings and they do not know how to handle that.

And the fact that he might look at those photos, get an erection, is the beginnings of him feeling that he's at fault in this whole situation. He might tell himself, well, I'm attracted to her, so I must want it. And there the confusion begins. And we know from so many cases that you have covered, Nancy, and that you've had me on your panel, that these women are often quite beautiful. And what I think about that is that they're really childlike. They're very kind of arrested developmentally. They're very immature. They see their child victims as

an age mate. They imagine, even though there was more than 10 years age difference between the two, it's as if the two are the same age in her mind. Nancy, she would go pick him up at the parents' house at 11 o'clock at night. That is bold. She's the teacher and she would pull up to the house and retrieve him from the house while he was with his parents. And to me, that tells me how cunning, manipulative, and predatory she was. With me, renowned defense attorney Robin Ficker. Robin, joining us from the Maryland and D.C. jurisdiction. Robin, what's going to be her defense? Well, I think her best defense is that

they did not have sex and that there's no proof that they did. I mean, they obviously have the photos. I can't understand why these parents were so derelict that they didn't know that their child was supposedly going out night after night and then coming back in the middle of the night. What were they doing? I think that this woman needs counseling, certainly. She has some sort of mental defect at this point where she knew what she was doing was wrong, but yet she went ahead and did it anyway. She didn't know right from wrong. And I think that as a defense attorney, I would get her in counseling so fast that her head would spin. You do know, Robin, you just said two completely opposite defenses in one sentence.

You said, well, she knew it was wrong and she went ahead and did it anyway, but she didn't know right from wrong. Okay. You know, Robin, you're so used to spinning your yarns in front of juries and they actually buy it guys. Robin Ficker has a heck of a track record at trial, but I picked up on that Robin. She can't know right from wrong and not know right from wrong. And to throw it at me in the very same sentence, Robin, I mean, you didn't think we were going to catch that? Well, that's called being duplicitous as

she was because she was obviously projecting Right, point to her away from you. She was obviously projecting Now I know how you win so many trials. It's like a snake charmer. I'm actually listening to you. Yes, that's what you called

duplicitous. It was you that to you. Yes, that's what you called her. Look at this. It was you that said it. She was projecting one image to her husband, one image to her school fellow teachers, and then quite another image to him. So she was an actress, that's for sure. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst. It reminds me when I did my student teaching. Okay. I was set to be an English teacher before I got admitted into law school, trying to get to university level. When I would go into the teacher's lounge, they were in there sipping coffee, reading, actually knitting and crocheting. Okay. You don't really think of them as picking up 14 year old boys for a booty call at 11 PM at night. Okay. And the whole thing cracked wide open when the boy breaks down crying and explains why his grades have gone down because he started this sex relationship with a science teacher. And then the next year she arranged for him to be her

teacher's aide. I mean, really. You know, Nancy, what it reminds me of, I've had a number of patients who were molested by priests and they were actually referred to me by the local diocese here because there's a victim's therapy unit where they actually pay for therapy for victims of abuse by priests. And a lot of these victims, the abuse started with some kind of a relationship where the young man was made to feel special around the age of maybe 9, 10, or 11. And then they were given special duties with the priest. And then it would progress to sex. But then long after the sex was over, they still felt obligated to the priest, like the priest had some sort of power over them. And a lot of them talked about feeling

stalked by the priest, like the priest was very preoccupied with them. And I'm thinking about that with this woman, that this is not just about sex, but she's obsessed with this boy. I mean, she goes to great lengths to pick him up at 11 o'clock at night, to give him her cell phone, make him a teacher's aid. The trauma for him is not just going to be the sexual aspect, which is horrific enough, but she has made him feel that he belongs to her. He's obligated to her. She's not going to be okay without him, that it's his fault that she's going to jail and that her marriage has broken up. And she may be like a Mary Kay Letourneau where she gets out of jail and she's still obsessed with him. I mean, this is a preoccupation on her part that could go on and on. Some offenders choose multiple victims.

Sometimes they just have one and they just gun for that one person, that that person is the one person they want and it lasts a lifetime, kind of like a stalking profile. Judge Wilcott and Jennifer, hold on one moment. Robin Ficker, I see that both she, the science teacher, and her firefighter husband have now taken down all their social media. I'm sure that was on purpose because the more photos there are of her floating around out there, the more fodder it is for the media, and it can be used by the prosecution. Well, I mean, it's a cause celebra. First of all, it's gotten on the Nancy Grace show. That's where it's going to get the most coverage. But she, the only thing that I can see that she can do, if they can prove that there was

sexual activity is for her to get into intensive counseling, go into an inpatient program. I really can't see much else that she can do. If once they prove that indeed there was sex between the two, I don't know if she made any statements. I hope she didn't for her sake. And the husband, I would just ignore what he's saying and what these other people are saying to the media. Straight back to Jennifer Zagowski with Heavy.com. Jennifer, I understand she's already been released from jail.

Yes, that is correct. From my understanding from the court records, she was released on $25,000 bail. And yeah, it didn't go into length, whether I'm sure she's wearing an ankle bracelet. But, you know, she's not set to be arraigned until the 22nd of March. So what could happen in between that time? You know, she had actually made contact with the teen again. Wait, after all this, she's still contacting him? Well, this was before the police were contacted. But I believe because of, you know, the divorce being filed on the 12th, I'm sure that there were red flags that were raised before that. And so she had left a message

for the boy on his cell phone, and they're not saying who, I'm assuming a parent probably was the person who took the next call when she called back. Right. Well, another concern to me, to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, did you know the judge actually lowered her bond to $12,500? That means she only had to put up $1,200, Ash. I know. And, you know, what makes me sick about it is look at the charges that she's been charged with. Maybe they don't have the evidence yet, but she needs to be charged with rape.

I mean, these are charges that she's going to get a lower bond. She's going to get out. She's going to get probation, but I don't understand why she has not been charged with rape and other felonies that will ensure she doesn't just walk out and bond and go do about her merry business and keep having these inappropriate relationships. I don't get it either. Ashley Wilcott with me, juvenile judge and child advocate. Ashley, the thing is this, I've prosecuted many a case without DNA and it can be done. You don't think a jury is going to believe it when they see these photos and you know, they've got to be text messages, explicit text messages to show to a jury to support a rape claim or

child molestation claim. And not only that, what was she taking him out to do science experiments at 11 o'clock at night? And you have a child who says that she had sex with him. There's no reason to not believe a 14-year-old child that says this. That's where you start and go from there. Back to Dr. Bethany Marshall, LA Psychoanalyst. Dr. Marshall, I don't understand why when someone seemingly has it all. She's a 26-year-old brunette beauty.

Again, I see this picture of her out in the ocean, maybe on a boat or a kayak. She's holding up a giant fish. She's got on a swimsuit. She's beautiful, healthy, athletic, and a happy marriage to a handsome young guy, the world in front of them. Why be a predator on a little boy? You know, female predators are very complicated. It's a very complicated disorder. And I tend to think of the pathology as emanating from the wish to be admired by somebody over whom they have complete control. So with male predators, sex is the primary driver of the molestation. With female predators, the emotional gratification or exploiting the child for emotional gratification is the driver

and then sex comes afterwards that's why i feel that she's going to become preoccupied with him and unable to break away and that's that's further proof for me that she needs to be behind bars for that child's sake because he needs to know that she is is locked up in a way and cannot get a hold of him, or he's going to feel very vulnerable out there in the world. This woman does not want an age mate. It doesn't matter how handsome her firefighter husband is and what a great life they have. He has a voice and he has a mind and he can stand up to her, and she's not going to be the kind of person who wants that.

Alan, what's our tip line number? Nancy, police are asking that if you know of any additional potential victims of this teacher, contact the Sheriff's Department's Child Exploitation Unit at 386-323-3574. Rushing around all day, working hard to support your family, then suddenly you realize something's off. Your daughter didn't make it to dance class. Her nanny was supposed to take her. What went wrong? You start calling around, and then you are trapped in a nightmare

when you learn your children have been killed. It sounds like a nightmare, but it's true. That's what is unfolding in a court of law right now. An anguished mother breaks down in tears. She comes home to find her children dead in the bath. She ran home in a panic with her third child, Nessie, when she discovers Lucia had not made it to dance class. Her husband, a hard-working executive, is away on business. And then she makes the horrific discovery. It is now playing out in a court of law. Joining me right now, Crime Stories investigative reporter, John Limley.

Forensic expert, death scene investigator, Joe Scott Morgan. And LA psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I remember when this happened, John. Refresh my recollection of the facts. What happened exactly? Well, if we go back to sort of paint the scene for the listener, to say that Marina Krim, Nancy, loved being a mom would be a huge understatement. She actually started and kept a blog of her family's activity. She titled her blog, Life with the Little Crim Kids. And in it, six-year-old Lucia, three-year-old Nessie, and two-year-old Leo are the stars. There are entries detailing ice skating outings, trips to Blackberry Patches, and gingerbread decorating contests, all in the family's Manhattan apartment.

What shines through most is the sheer delight that Marina takes in being a mom. She loves these children. But even super moms can use a little help now and then. So after Leo came along, Marina hired a nanny. Her name, Jocelyn Ortega. And Jocelyn would take the girls to ballet and art classes. She blended into the Krem household. Even when she was with her own friends and family, Jocelyn would bring out photos of the kids as if they were her own. This makes what happened all the more inexplicable

and Nancy, to be perfectly honest, chilling at the very least. It's a typical fall day. Marina leaves Lucia and Leo in Ortega's care while she takes Nessie to a swimming lesson at the nearby YMCA. Marina, as you pointed out, made plans to meet Ortega at a dance class for Lucia at 5.30 that afternoon. Now, Ortega didn't arrive on time, so after a while, Marina grows concerned, and so she returns

home to check on the nanny and the children. When she arrives, she discovers that the lights are off in the apartment, which puzzles her. It seems like no one's home. So she goes back down to the lobby, and she asks the doorman if he's seen the nanny, the children, seen them leave. He hadn't seen a thing. So Marina goes back up to the apartment. She goes room by room and finally comes to the bathroom. It's dark as well. So she flicks on the light and what she sees defies imagination as to how a human comprehends this. She finds her two children, Lucia and Leo, stabbed to death, stacked one on top of the other in the bathtub. Marina and her daughter Nessie, right there by her side, walk in just as Ortega, sitting on the floor, is stabbing herself in the throat in what

authorities believe is an attempt to take her own life. The children's father and Marina's husband worked for CNBC, Kevin Krim. He was just returning home from a West Coast business trip when police stopped him as he got off the plane there at JFK International Airport and had to share with him the tragic news. I'm just overwhelmed. I remember exactly when this happened. Dr. Bethany Marshall, LA Psychoanalyst, you were with me, I think, that night on the air. And the story was just so overwhelming.

I could hardly report the air. And the story was just so overwhelming. I could hardly report the facts. And I don't know how you make a comeback from that. The woman, Ortega, the babysitter, had never shown any signs of mental illness. She had been recommended to the mom by the mom's own sister. She had gotten every advantage from the family. She had never been late. She never even asked for a raise. They paid her to fly home on vacations to Dominican Republic. And I did not see it coming at all. The family did not see it coming. There. The family did not see it coming.

There were no signs, Dr. Bethany. You know, not only that, but the Krim family went and visited Ortega's sister and stayed with her in the Dominican Republic. So this family was, the Krims were very invested in Ortega and in her family. I think that what was happening is this nanny had pathological simmering resentment towards the children and the parents for their wealth, for their love, for the good life they led. And this is what we often see with caretakers that abuse children. They're actually envious of the children for having love and care. That's really at the bottom of it. And Ortega's own son had recently come to the United States. She was having a hard time paying for his tuition.

Marina Krim had given the nanny extra work, was paying her $100 a week, I believe, to do some extra light housekeeping. And it sounds like this was a turning point for this housekeeper who became increasingly enraged at the workload. Rather than appreciating what Marina Krim was trying to do for her, she twisted it all in her mind as like an insult. And here she was having to do more and more. And so I think this rageful attack towards the children was out of envy, resentment.

And I don't believe she was trying to kill herself, by the way, Nancy, this stabbing herself in the neck. I think it was just a plea for sympathy as Marina was coming home. I think that's what she did to try to make herself look crazy and get out of the crime. You know, to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, I'm just thinking about this nanny who had never exhibited any signs of mental illness at all. Her son, her 17 year old son had come to live with her. She had recently lost her apartment and had moved in with her sister. She asked for extra work. The mom gave her light housekeeping and was paying her extra money. The resentment apparently just boiled over. What about the scene would we be able to, what evidence would be able to use to determine whether it was premeditated or an act of insanity.

I got to say, Nancy, the fact that she didn't do this in some random location in the home, both of these babies are in the bathroom, specifically in the bathtub, which gives me an indication that these children were taken there for that specific purpose in an area that's probably smaller than the rest of the house that's confined that's in an area that if you wanted to clean up you actually could we see this with a lot of killers and the the fact the brutality of this thing is just almost unimaginable We talked about what the mother witnessed when she walked in. You can just imagine this bathroom is painted in the blood of your children. This little boy, his name was Leo. He was stabbed or cut at least five times. Now, he's a little one. Now, we talked

about Lucia. Her name, by the way, what they called her was Lulu. And he's a little one. Now we talked about Lucia, her, her name, by the way, what they called her was Lulu. Um, and, uh, she fought back, Nancy, she fought back. This, this woman inflicted, uh, what's estimated between 20 and 30 sharp force injuries on this little girl. Uh, that's a sign of, of anger and hatred and rage. And typically we refer to that as an overkill event, that you don't need that much to kill somebody that this is. And Dr. Bethany can really speak to this probably, but there's a lot of anger being directed at these children. And, you know, this woman stabbing herself in the neck, I don't know what to make of that. She obviously didn't do a very good job. She's still among the living.

But just what she did to these children just destroyed it. Not to mention what she's done to the mom and the daddy. And this little kid that's left behind as well. She just ripped these people's lives to shreds. You know, the prosecutor said it will never be known why the nanny, Ortega, killed the children. But I do know this. The prosecutor insists it was intentional. Listen.

Yasmin Ortega, this defendant, intentionally and savagely slaughtered Lucia Krim and Leo Krim, murdering them in the family's apartment in the bathroom of their apartment at 57 West 75th Street here in New York County. Lucia was known as Lulu, and she was six years old. Leo had just turned two. And the defendant, this defendant, who was at the time their 50-year-old babysitter, was entrusted with their care, and she viciously and violently attacked Lulu and Leo when she was alone in the apartment with them, when she knew that their mother was out of the apartment, when she knew that their mother was with their three-year-old sister,

and she was alone with the children in the apartment. As I said, the defendant waited until she was sure that the mother was out of the apartment before she returned to the apartment with Lulu and Leo that afternoon, took knives from the kitchen, and repeatedly slashed and stabbed them in the bathroom of the apartment, laying their bodies on top of one another to bleed out in the bathtub. The evidence will show that the defendant returned to the apartment on October 25, 2012 with Leo and Lulu just before 4 p.m.

and that their mother, Marina Krim, frantically returned to the apartment at about 5.20 in the afternoon looking for her children. In the approximately 90 minutes that the defendant was alone in that apartment with Lulu and Leo, the 90 minutes during which the Crim's trusted her to care for and protect their children. The defendant brutally butchered both children, slitting their throats. The forensic evidence will prove to you that although Leo, two years old, was too small to struggle. Lulu was six years old, and she fought back.

She knew what was happening, she understood what the defendant was doing, and she fought to live. But the defendant was bigger and stronger, and the defendant repaid Lulu's resistance with almost 30 different stab and slash wounds to her body and her neck. Lulu also sustained cuts and abrasions to her hands and arms that you will learn are consistent with her defending herself, evidence of her fight to live. Both Lulu and Leo suffered such severe and deep neck wounds that the first emergency officers on scene thought that they may have been decapitated. Ladies and gentlemen, what I have just told you is the undisputed truth.

That this defendant killed those children on October 25, 2012. That this defendant overcame Lulu's resistance and killed her, as well as her brother. That this defendant slit the throats of Lulu and Leo Krim. That is the undisputed truth. These are the undisputed facts in this case. And these are the facts and the evidence that will prove to you, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant intentionally murdered Lulu and Leo Krim on October 25th, 2012. That she knew what she was doing when she killed them, and that she knew that killing them was wrong. The defense in this case is the devil made me do it. with the defendant claiming that the last thing she remembers before waking up in the hospital

after the murders is the devil taking over her body. To make it more heinous, the mom has to take the stand in front of a jury and relive the moment she finds her children dead in the bathtub in the family home. Yes, she did, Nancy, and it was very emotional. But the judge wouldn't allow cameras to be on during Marina Krim's testimony. But this CBS reporter was in court and tells us what she said. A defense attorney asked Krim about talking to police after the murders. Krim grew upset and yelled,

I don't remember what I said that day. I was grieving in a massive way. Crim testified a few weeks before the murders, she saw the nanny quote, looking at me with this glare on her face that was just pure evil, a really weird mean look. As Crim left the stand after finishing her testimony, she screamed at Ortega, you're evil and you like this. You're getting pleasure. Back to John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What motive, if any, have we been able to determine? Not that motive has to be proved at trial, but what do authorities think played into this? Well, not only authorities, investigators, but prosecutors and defense

attorneys agree on the fact that Yoselin Ortega repeatedly stabbed and killed these two young children in her care in 2012. The question in court now is why and whether that even matters. Opening statements in Ortega's murder trial have begun in Manhattan Supreme Court, and Ortega stands accused of repeatedly stabbing to death the two children, something I've neglected to mention from the outset, were stabbed so many times that they were nearly decapitated and left to bleed in a bathtub. But prosecutor Courtney Groves has told jurors that they would not try to prove a motive in the case. So rather than counter the evidence of Ortega's role in the killings, defense attorneys argued that Ortega was suffering from depression, was hearing capacity to know or appreciate the nature and consequences of her acts, of her conduct. The evidence will show that Ms. Ortega suffered on that date, at that time, and before that date, October 25, 2012, from a chronic mental illness. The evidence will show that she has a corroborated history of hearing voices and dissociating from reality since the age of 16. The defense will show that she suffered from three discrete episodes of major depression,

disorder, psychotic thinking, dissociation, auditory, visual, and command hallucinations, and tactile hallucinations. Well, if that's true then to Dr. Bethany Marshall, how come no one had noticed it? I mean, you think that mother would have kept Ortega on if she thought she was having ideations of that manner? Yeah, I don't believe that she was hearing or seeing things that weren't there. I mean, it takes an enormous amount of energy and psychological organization to kill two young children, all right? You have to really think about it. You have to be methodical. You have to know what you're doing.

This is not a disorganized attack. This was an organized attack, which tells me that she was mentally together. Also, when you're depressed, you have no energy. So whenever people say, oh, well, you know, this guy went on a killing rampage because he was depressed. I'm like, no, depressed people lie in bed all day. They don't pick up guns and kill people. They don't stab a child 20 to 40 times. So no,

I just, I don't believe that she was struggling with her mental health. I think she was struggling psychologically, but she was not hearing or seeing things. With anger. With anger. With anger, because I mean, think about it, Dr. Bethany. Here she is. She can't afford her apartment. Apparently, she moves in with the sister. Her 17 year old son joins her. She's been away from her family. She's broke and she's living in an very wealthy home in Manhattan, taking care of these children.

And the mom isn't working. The dad is an executive. The mom works with the children all day long she had been a teacher before she quit and i think jealousy and resentment over somebody having more than you have that's what i always tell the twins don't look don't look at what other people do or have you think about what you're doing, okay, and how you can make the best of what you have and count your blessings. Because, you know, jealousy is all the fun you think they're having. That is not necessarily true. You know, Bethany, when we were growing up, we were

dirt poor, okay? My parents weren't like dogs. I didn't even know we were Bethany, when we were growing up, we were dirt poor. Okay. My parents weren't like dogs. I didn't even know we were poor. I thought we were perfectly happy looking and coveting and being jealous of what other people have and resenting your lot. I think it just drove her over the edge. I think it did too. There's a well-known psychoanalyst psychiatrist here in Southern California, Reed Malloy. And he wrote a paper where he talked about the fact that if you look at any violent crime, jealousy, envy are the basic motivators of all crimes. Jealousy is you're paying more attention to somebody else than me. Envy is you have something that I want

and I can't have, and I'm going to blot you out because of it. And so I sort of imagine this nanny going with the mother to buy, let's say, the kid's sweaters and thinking about her own child, where maybe she can't afford clothing, or looking at a beautiful meal on the table and thinking, I wish I could be home cooking for my son. But what happens is that the feelings of longing turn into resentment, envy, hatred, and the wish to eradicate the object of one's envy. See, in my field, when we treat envious people, what we see is that they always want to eradicate and destroy the object of their envy. That's where envy ends up. Okay, you're totally messing with my head right now.

You're totally to imagine that envy can take over your whole life. Yes. How do you conceal that all day long when you work with somebody and yet you hate them? You know, I think I've used this term before with you, but sometimes these homicidal people wear what we call the mask of sanity. They are adept at looking like they are like the rest of society. They are adept at looking like they are getting along, but it's kind of a false presentation that hides a very angry, sinister, pathological, unempathetic interior. And I think that's what that external persona cracked at some point, and the inner monster came out. She said to the cop at the time, according to the cop, that the cop said she complained about her job and the way she was treated.

See, the mom had no idea that there was anything wrong, yet she is complaining. She takes time after she murders the children to complain about the way she was treated. Everybody to watch this as it unfolds. You can go for live coverage on CrimeOnline.com where we're streaming the trial live. She actually thought about complaining about her job after the murders, Bethany? I mean, that just proves what we're talking about,

that she's in a very, what I would call like a paranoid, obsessional state, which what that means is that she had the delusion that this family was negatively affecting her well-being. It was the family's fault that she didn't have enough money. It was Marina's fault that she couldn't pay for her child's school, that somehow everything got laid at the feet of the family and there was nothing about her own agency and her own life that she could claim responsibility for to give herself a better life. I mean, so resentful that she's complaining to the police officer. I mean, that's really out of control.

She said, I had, quote, I had to do everything and take care of the kids. I worked as a babysitter only, and she wanted me to do everything, five hours of cleaning. And what the mom is saying is that Ortega needed more money. So she said, okay, you know, do an hour or two cleaning each day and I'll pay you more money. I mean, thinking she was helping her. Nancy, have you ever had a friend that the more you give to the friend and the more you do for them, the more resentful and angry they become towards you? Have you ever had that dynamic? I've had that with people where you're actually trying to help them out and every gift you give just stirs up resentment. And that's because they can't tolerate that maybe you have something better than them that you can offer to them.

That makes them very enraged. And I think that was the psychological situation for this nanny, that she couldn't stand that the family had a better life than she had, basically. She couldn't take it. Well, of course, John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, the defense attorney tried to get all those statements thrown out. It didn't work. They are coming into evidence, John Limley, as I understand it. Correct. As they put it, Ortega's lack of a motive is evidence in itself that she suffers from untreated severe mental illness and belongs in mental health care rather than being behind prison bars. It's been more than five years now since Ortega was charged in the killings, and the

Crimps have waited as Ortega's attorney, Valerie Van Leer Greenberg, tried to convince the court that her client was mentally unfit to stand trial. After several competency hearings, Judge Gregory Caro has ruled that Ortega is indeed fit for trial. Go to CrimeOnline.com to watch the trial as it occurs live. Nancy, the parents Kevin and Marina Krem released a video just before the trial started asking the public for positive thoughts and for financial support for the Lulu and Leo Fund. Hi, everyone. We're here to give you an update and to ask for your help. After five long years, the criminal trial in our case is getting started. And over the next few months, the story of Lulu and Leo and our whole family will be painfully in the news again. This trial will be very hard for us and for a lot of you. We feel like this community,

all of you, have been with us all along through this whole experience. Even if you never met Lulu and Leo, you feel like you know them, you love them, and you're inspired by them like we are. So a lot of people have been asking us how they can help, how they can support us

during this really horrible time. And we thought about it and we realized that we're gonna handle this the way we've handled everything we're gonna focus on the positive and the goodness that's come out of all this when you hear about us on the news or we come up in conversation, we want you to tell people about the Lou and Leo Fund and the Choose Creativity Initiative and the 10 Principles of Creativity. This is the legacy of Lou and Leo, and this is what matters. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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