Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - How did Ariana Grande concert bomber go unnoticed?

Episode Date: May 24, 2017

The 22-year-old man was on the radar of anti-terror cops, but he was still able to kill 22 people at an Ariana Grande concert in England with a suicide bomb. In this episode, Nancy Grace talks with Brian Levin, Director of Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism, about the terror attack and how it could happen again in the United States. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. So everyone just looked at each other and there was just a mad rush. All I could hear was screaming, people crying. Of the 22 people confirmed dead, police say there are still a number that have not been identified. This is my daughter Olivia. I haven't seen her since 5 o'clock last night. Many of the victims who did not make it out were teenage girls. The youngest victim, just 8 years old. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This attack stands out for its appalling, sickening cowardice, deliberately targeting innocent, defenseless children and young people who should have been enjoying one of the most memorable nights of their lines lounging on the beach with his buddies a pothead teen who goes on to massacre 22 people

at an ariana grande concert whoa whoa whoa whoa he was in the street chanting Muslim phrases, anti-Western tirades. M-15 was onto him, but he was allowed to walk free? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Why did the concert bomber. Why was he walking free? Why was he able to access mothers and daughters, many of whom are still missing right now? Their families don't know if they're dead or alive. Why was he able to walk free? Thank you for being with us. In addition to our friend, the Duke, Alan Duke, joining me, special guest, Brian Levin. He is the director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. Joining us. I don't understand it, Brian. Why is he walking free? And now I have to look at the pictures of him high as a kite on pot with his buddies on the beach, living it up prior to a slaughter of 22 people in a public arena at the Ariana Grande concert.

I mean, this guy who detonates his bomb, killing 22, had been out in the street chanting Islamic dogma, anti-Western hatred, spewing it. And now this. And these little girls represented everything he hated. That a woman, girls, could be whoever they want to be. They could dress how they want to dress. They could dress how they want to dress. They could spray paint their hair purple. They could have tattoos. They could wear midget shirts.

They could dance and sing in public with their mothers. And I'm sure that infuriated him. And now 22 are dead. What happened, Brian? Why was he walking free? that is a great question and one that I think many people in England will be asking I can tell you the answer wait a minute Brian don't start with me but by turning my question into a question I'm familiar with that and that is ma BS I want to hear what you think is the answer don't say oh good. I'm familiar with that. And that is, BS, I want to hear what you think is the

answer. Don't say, oh, good question. I'm sure a lot of people want to know the answer to that. Yeah, me. I want to know. I want to know now. You're the director of the Center Against Extremism, blah, blah, blah, blah, big, very important. I'm very impressed with your institute, by the way. Very impressed. Now, give me the answer. Well, I think the answer is that there are so many people in Britain that are radicalized relative to the resources they have that they made a judgment call which turned out to be fatally wrong. Brian, you actually are bringing me to tears and I'm going to tell you why. I was all prepared to disagree with whatever you were going to say, but I remember a moment when I had been trying, I think it was a serial rape case and I wouldn't even bother to go into my actual office in the DA's office.

I would just get up. And I was so worried about my evidence and my files and my research that I would carry it with me wherever I went. You know how you see flight attendants booking it along the concourse and they have one of those pull things and they have their bags on it? I would stack up those white plastic mail baskets and fill it with all of my files, you know, like direct examination of cop number two, direct examination of witness three, blah, blah, blah, research on how to get this piece of evidence in, you know, the order of my, all that. And I would carry it with me during trials because I did not want it tampered with by some unscrupulous defense attorney.

And I would just go straight into the courtroom in the mornings, say, you know, 730, and I would stay there until the end of the day and leave. Okay. Sorry, I'm getting to the point, Brian. So I finished the trial. I come across from the courtrooms to my office finally after being on trial for like three weeks. I opened my door and on my desk, I had missed like the grand jury meet twice a week. I had missed three weeks of grand jury indictments and my share of those from my courtroom that I was running. All these files were stacked upon my desk so tall they had fallen over

domino-esque and covered my whole desk and had fallen onto the floor. There were so many new cases and I was bone tired from trying that case and dealing with all these ladies had gone through and came in to like 150 brand new felonies for me to deal with. So I was all ready, Brian, to say, that's BS. You know, they needed X, Y, Z, blah, blah. But you're right, Brian. There's too many of them and not enough of us. I mean, but this guy, Brian, was screaming in the street. How can you ignore that? And this is an issue that has come up again and again. The folks involved in the Paris conspiracy were known to the authorities

and indeed part of a web of extremism and criminality that had a root in the French prison system. Our situation is not as attenuated. Wait, what did you just say? It has its roots in the French prison system. What? Yes. Hey, you got a dummy down from me, okay? I'm just a trial lawyer, okay?

You're the director of whatever it is. It's a very long Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. Brian, what do you mean this movement? And it would have been longer if there were more administrators involved.

Okay, now I finally get to laugh this morning. But what do you mean it had its roots in the French prison system? This is a Libyan Britain, right? Isn't he a British Libyan? What I'm saying is I was using the example of what happened in continental Europe to show that this is not the first time that we saw individuals who were familiar to the authorities. And indeed, with respect to France and Belgium, they were known to the authorities for some time, but the ability to continue monitoring these folks ended when they went for a while

and didn't do anything. There are all kinds of extremists that are out there, and the authorities in Britain, and you're exactly right, he had traveled to Libya, and now there's a wider conspiracy. Apparently, at least three more people have been arrested. But as we hear, it takes about 25 to 30 people to truly monitor a suspect over a course of time. And there are at least 400 people in Britain that they know about, that they believe to be dangerous, who had actually traveled to the Iraq-Syria theater and came back. So they made a judgment call, plots prior to the Manchester attack, which was the worst terrorist attack to hit Britain since 2005, the 7-7 attacks.

So there's a lot of hand-wringing going on now, but I think the issue is what kind of objective evidence did they have on this suspect relative to all the others that they were monitoring? Yeah, right. Their legal system is very similar to ours. And so they have to have... What do you know about law? I know, really. What am I talking about? And so I'm wondering if they thought that he was just, you know, a radicalized, you know, banshee out in the street, not someone that would actually act. This guy, Salman Abedi, was once an innocent schoolboy. Just a few years before he murdered 22 people,

including children just eight years old, detonating a nail bomb in a giant arena venue where Ariana Grande was playing to a packed house, largely mothers and daughters. You know, my children listen to Ariana Grande. They know who she is. Of course, I did show them the picture of her licking the donuts. Wasn't that her, Alan?

Licking the donuts, thinking she wouldn't get caught. Yeah, she has some controversy attached to her. That's true. Well, licking the donuts is, you know, not the worst thing, but ew. Nancy Grace has gotten people in prison for doing less than licking the donuts. This is Ariana Grande. I showed the children the doing less than licking the donuts. This is Ariana Grande. I showed the children the video of her licking the donuts. They did not want to believe that was her, but they finally gave in.

But you've got to remember, they also liked Justin Bieber until I showed them the picture of him walking around where you can actually see his butt crack. Okay. And TT-ing in a, what what was that in a pail and so i've tried to turn them away from justin bieber okay all that aside ariana grande huge mega success people love her my kids so the arena is packed is my point this guy goes from a boy at the bernage academy a boy's school that catered mostly to manchester's asian community he played football i guess there that's soccer seemed to be normal but a senior uS. intelligence official now claims members of

his own family had warned police that he was dangerous. How, Brian, did he become radicalized? That is a great question, what it appears. We've seen certain milestones that exist with respect to radicalization. And one of the things that we're concerned about is over the years, the duration of time where one goes from normalcy to radicalization really has been compressed. Did you just say normalcy? Did you say normalcy? Yes. Because isn't it normalcy? Am I the crazy one here? Or is it actually Brian Levin? He's a college professor. He grades papers. He grades term papers, so you

might know. Is normalcy a word? I am so afraid to be in the same studio as my two hosts. I'm so happy. I actually got something over on this brilliant person, Brian Levin. I can't believe it. I'm so happy. Now I'm afraid to actually dictionary.com it because I could be totally wrong. Okay, let me just enjoy one moment of victory here because I'm way out of my league on this, okay? I'm way out of my league about this okay I'm way out of my league

about terrorists you are never out of your league I used to I used to watch your show and go I am so glad I am not that person in the box on the side you know is there an ambulance waiting like they have it you know at various kind of like boxing events I'm going to pause and thank our awesome sponsor, our partner in today's podcast. And I'll start with a story out of Racine, Wisconsin. A house catches on fire at nobody's home. It took a while for neighbors to even notice the problem. But at the end of the day, there were $40,000 damages. Priceless items, gone.

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happened in Britain. I love Great Britain. I've taken the children there. You know, we saved for two years to take them on a trip to find harry potter okay it was one of the most wonderful things i have ever done and it hurts my heart to hear this because britain is one step away from the u.s it's our closest ally and my question in my mind is if this could happen to this kid, could it happen to a U.S. kid? Because now more and more U.S. teen boys are getting radicalized. They're getting radicalized over the Internet, for Pete's sake. So how did this happen, Brian? U.S. women have also been radicalized as well.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right about that. So how does that happen? Remember that woman from Mississippi who with her boyfriend became radicalized? I remember. I remember. But usually behind every bad woman, there's an even worse man. Okay.

I'm just putting that out there. Oh, my gosh. I am not even going to. Oh, my. Alan, I think that out there. Oh, my gosh. I am not even going to. Oh, my. Alan, I think that's for you to address. You're not going to touch it because you know it's true, my man. But let me get back to this. How did this kid get radicalized?

They're rolling it up now, and it appears to be part of a wider conspiracy. So I think there are a few markers that we are seeing in this case that are somewhat representative of the template that we routinely see with this kind of horrendous attack. And that is, we have someone who was not born elsewhere, but was born in Britain. I think that's interesting. His parents were from North Africa. And there were travels back there. What else do we know about Libya? Look, Libya has been a new hotbed for some time for ISIS. If people remember, there were Egyptian Christians, Coptics, who were beheaded on the beach in Libya. ISIS has had a presence in Libya for some time.

Okay, guys, I want to bring something up right there that you said. Nobody ever talks about Christians being mistreated and murdered and persecuted. I don't know why, but it is happening and it is happening now. Oh, we did. We had a front page. We had a front page column about it. It is happening now in a terrifying way because the Christians of the Middle East are being cleansed. And when I say cleansed, I don't mean in a good way. You mean murdered? Yes, in places like Iraq, in places in North Africa. This is a tragedy that certainly needs more reporting. And what we are seeing is the dechristianization of many parts of the Middle East, where there has been a presence of Christians, obviously, for 2,000 years. This is deeply disturbing.

I'm very, very disturbed by it because, you know, I really believe that there are a few groups that it's still okay to make fun of, you know, and one of those groups is Christians. I guess people think that Christians have become such a majority in the U.S. that it's okay to take pot shots at them when the reality is that in other parts of the world, they are being slaughtered. Slaughtered! You know, if you ask... Absolutely.

If you ask, people think that the last time Christians were slaughtered. You know, if you ask, people think that the last time Christians were slaughtered is when they were fed to the lions in the Roman arenas. No, no, it's happening right now. Look at the bombings just this year in Alexandria in Egypt and the slew of church attacks that have taken place in a variety of places that have been under the control of ISIS, and then prior to that, during the civil war in Iraq. Iraq was 9% Christian. Lebanon, similarly, had a very vibrant Christian population. So this kind of theological warfare that is taking place within North Africa and the Middle East is of great concern to us. Well, this is where I come from on this. My viewpoint is that according to what I believe, we are to hate no one. We are not to hate Christians, non-believers, Muslims. No one are we to hate or hold in contempt. So I don't understand how radical Islam, what do they hope to gain? For instance, ISIS. And this is not all Muslims. But what is their goal, the radicalized Muslim?

What is their point of slaughtering? I don't, I don't, is that to annihilate all non-Muslim until they are the only people left in the world? Is that the goal? goal for these radicals they believe that what they are doing is an act of religiously ordained legitimate revenge for violence and deprivations that they perceive has been caused by the West okay how did we how are we responsible for that? I obviously don't concur in that analysis, but they would say, look, there are women and children being slaughtered

in various places in the world, and they connect it to either regimes that have had Western support or regimes that they'll say had Western support and therefore we are responsible as well, or military actions that we have. That is posted all over the Internet. So they have a series of countries and leaders who they regard as enemies. And the United States, Britain, France, Australia, and others are stereotyped as legitimate targets for aggression. That being said, there has certainly been conflict in the Middle East and various allied countries have been involved in that. Brian, the reason I ask is that people in America wonder, why are we in this mess?

What do we have to do with ISIS? And I understand the question. I understand the thinking because, you know, it seems so far removed from us. It's a whole world away. It's on the other side of the world. Well, what happened in the Manchester arena is not on the other side of the world. It's just across the pond, as they say, as they refer to it. And that's where our jurisprudence system was birthed, is in England. And this is really hitting close to home. Britain now on lockdown. The British Army sending 1,000 soldiers to guard Buckingham Palace. Parliament has been closed to the public. changing of the guard is canceled, as the Ariana Grande concert, symbolizing everything the radical Islamist hate,

has drawn focus to the brewing hatred that has erupted in now multiple deaths. I don't understand, Alan, how within an arena, an enclosed, you know, somewhat contained crime scene, large as it is, that there are still people missing, that they can't find everyone. I don't understand that. How can that be? It's because it was a bomb blast. It was a bomb blast, and it takes a while for them to identify everybody. By the way, this was not actually inside the arena. This was outside in the foyer near the box office as people were leaving

behind. And the bomber knew that people would be leaving at 1030 at the end of the show and just waited there as people were going to walk to the train station, Victoria Stations right there, just waited and exploded outside the perimeter of security when everybody thought that it was all over. But I have been in a bomb blast. It took a long time for them to identify everybody after the Oklahoma City bombing. It takes a while, and we're only two days into this there's one person that was never identified there was a leg that was found and they don't know who would belong to a boot they found a boot so it takes a while so the people the women and daughters they're looking for could actually be are you saying body parts at this juncture or they could be in a hospital just not yet identified

either a in the morgue or be in a hospital bed, unconscious, in a coma, with no ID. Exactly. There could have been children that were leaving the venue, and they were supposed to meet their parent at a predetermined location. Because of the blast, the parents were not able to meet the child, the child could be unconscious and picked up by good Samaritans, taken to a hospital with no identification as the parents are worried to death about what's going on with their children. It's just the worst case scenario of any parent. Another thing that happened, Brian, and you're not kidding. Did you know that the UK border checks have now been called a, quote, shambles?

Because now we know this suicide bomber traveled to ISIS strongholds Syria and Libya before being able to come straight through back to Britain. And there are hundreds of people who have traveled to that area who may have gotten training. So not only did, and again, the British press is reporting that not only did he travel to Syria, I'm sorry, not only to Libya, but to possibly Syria as well. I don't have confirmation of that, but that's what's being reported. But which brings us back to the excellent point that you had brought up by British authorities. What happened is they had made judgment calls.

And what we don't know are who are all the rest of the folks that they're looking at and what are all the other plots that we haven't been told about that have been interdicted relative to this one? Right. And there's limited resources. Yes, you're right. You're right. There are many plots that have been stopped by the police. A friend of the bomber said that he had just come back from a three-week trip to Libya, which is, of course, an ISIS hotbed,

just a few days ago, that he continued to make repeated trips there. He was never stopped. It was also learned that he traveled by train from London to Manchester on Monday before the bombing, and that many people believe that he is nothing more than a mule, that he was given

the bomb by an unidentified bomb maker. Now, there is a French minister, Gerard Colombe, that has stated that the bomber is believed to have traveled to Syria and had proven links with ISIS. It makes me wonder who else helped this happen? Who created the bomb? He very likely did not create the bomb himself. So who else is responsible? That's what I want to know. I think you make an excellent point. That was one that I said yesterday, which is it's not impossible to make a bomb by oneself. For instance, the Tsarnaev brothers did, but they had gone back to Chechnya, and we know that they had met with various extremist folks. What kind of training they got is not entirely clear.

But the bottom line is, here's the scary thing. I agree with you, and I say this, I think this looks like more of a conspiracy here. Because you usually have someone with a device like that, someone who makes it, and then someone who gets the person to the scene.

And there might have even been somebody else. Now, this is not what's been reported, so we just don't know at this point the initial reports say that he blew up the ied but it's not inconceivable that even someone else did it who was in the area remotely i don't think we have evidence of that but the bottom line is is that in these kinds of instances i think we have to look bigger rather than smaller. I'm not saying a huge number of people necessarily, but certainly it appears more likely that it would be a contained conspiracy. We have different structures. We have directed cells.

We have autonomous cells, duos, and loners. And this, to me, looks like some kind of enabled cell. But again, it's far too early for this kind of definitive speculation, but that's something that's going to be in the template of investigators. And in the United States, when then-Director Comey just this month testified before Congress, it sounded to me like he was saying there were not about 900 to 1,000 folks that were being monitored, although there are, that it might be twice that here in the United States and in all 50 states. In the U.S., the reason we are talking about this now is not just because our hearts are mourning for the victims in Manchester, but because it is one step away from the U.S. As Brian Levin has just pointed out, nearly double that number of potential radicalized terrorists are being monitored on U.S. soil. One quick distinction which gives me a little comfort, because I do believe we're going to be hit again.

But here's the thing. The problem in Europe that makes it more acute is exactly what you pointed to, and that is, yes, we have people that are radicalized, and we have people that are being networked through the Internet. Indeed, we saw that with respect to our community. In the Inland Empire of California, we had a set of Facebook plotters who were going to travel to Afghanistan and murder American soldiers. That was broken up. And interestingly enough, the fear of that investigation caused Saeed Farouk and Enrique Marquez, Saeed Farouk who hit our community San Bernardino in 2015, to put on hold their plans to attack our local community. He later carried that out a few years subsequent.

But the bottom line is that it's not that we don't have radicalized folks. But here's what I don't think we have. We don't have the issue with regard to assimilation to the same degree that exists in Europe. The other thing is, we do not have nearly the number... Wait a minute. Wait a minute. No, Mr. Director of the Center for Study of Hate Extremism. When you say assimilation... Let me just make a second point and then you can attack me any way you want. You haven't even explained the first point.

I'm not attacking, but you can't just throw out... Hold on. The second point is we do not have nearly the number of people that have traveled in theater, gotten trained, and come back that they have in Europe. So while we do have radicalized individuals, their support system and incubation system is much more attenuated here in the United States than it would be in Europe, where we have criminal syndicates. We also have people who are ferreting these folks into and out of theater, that is Syria, Iraq,

that we don't have here in the U.S. Nancy, would you like for me to translate? No, I'm going to put it in. I was just waiting for him to take a breath before I jumped in. I think what he's trying to say in a nutshell is that our homegrown terrorists here have a harder time, as he said, assimilating, which means they don't blend in as easily here in the U.S. They do blend in better here. Can I finish? We're the melting pot. They blend in here.

I'm cutting both of your mics. I'm sorry, pardon me? She's cutting our mics, Brian. You know what? I'm going to end it on this. Our hearts are broken for Britain, and yet in fear and vigilance of the next step here in America on U.S. soil. All I can say is God bless Britain and God bless America. If you're not there when a fire starts, who will be there to save your home? With SimpliSafe Home Security, your smoke detectors immediately alert emergency services at the first sign of a fire. Get 10% off your system today at SimpliSafe.com slash Nancy.

That's SimpliSafe.com slash Nancy. Brian, thank you for being with us. The Duke, as always. Nancy Grace signing off. Brian, thank you for being with us. The Duke, as always. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.