Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HS "HAZING" GOES WRONG: D.A. TO PERPS "TURN YOURSELF IN"

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Syracuse, New York, five underclassmen on the Westhill High School lacrosse team were excited when older teammates invited them to watch a rival school's match and get dinner at McDonald’s. After the game, while driving home, the car’s driver appeared to get lost and pulled over. Suddenly, masked attackers—armed with at least one knife and possibly a gun—emerged from a wooded area and tried to kidnap the boys. Four escaped, but the masked men captured one. Outnumbered 11 to one, the boy had his hands tied and a pillowcase placed over his head before the assailants forced him into the trunk of a car at knifepoint. The kidnappers taunted him as they drove to another secluded, wooded area and left him on the ground—alone and fearing for his life. Still bound and blindfolded, the boy heard the attackers return. He didn’t know if they planned to release him or kill him. Instead, they revealed it was a prank. The attackers were upperclassmen on the lacrosse team staging a hazing ritual. The entire incident was recorded on video. The next morning, the victim’s family reported the incident to the school, as students circulated the video and rumors of the mock kidnapping sparked a social media firestorm in the community. A school resource officer reported the incident to the Sheriff’s Office, triggering an investigation. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Shari Foltz - Mother of Stone Foltz, Son Died during a hazing incident at a frat initiation at Bowling Green State University // Founder of I Am Stone Foltz Foundation  David Bianchi - Trial lawyer at Stewart, Tilghman, Fox, Bianchi & Cain, [recognized as "America’s leading hazing lawyer"], Represented Danny Santulli's family who was left permanently impaired after fraternity hazing incident at University of Missouri Dr. Gary Brucato - Clinical Psychologist and Author: “The New Evil: Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime” Barry Hutchison - Former 26-year law enforcement veteran and detective, now owner & Chief Investigator for Barry & Associates Investigative Services [located in Kansas & Missouri] Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host of "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensic Mary Kielar - Investigative Reporter for CNY Central Media Group; Instagram @MaryKielar, Facebook @MaryKielarCNYCentral, X: MaryKCNY See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, a high school hazing goes horribly wrong. The district attorney makes a public statement to the perpetrators. Turn yourself in. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us. Five underclassmen on the West Hill High School lacrosse team are on a rare social outing with a couple of older teammates. The occasion is

unlike any other. If all goes well, the younger teens might have a shot at proving their worth as new players on the team. It's a golden ticket to the highly coveted prize of social acceptance in the intricate hierarchy of high school politics. Politics? Social status? What? Does nobody get even now that these hazing incidents end in death? Before I go out to an all-star panel, I want you to meet someone very near and dear to my heart. And I finally get to speak to her in person. Sherri Foltz is with us, the mother of Stone Foltz, founder of I Am Stone Foltz Foundation,

the mission to stop deadly hazing. She lost her boy, her beautiful boy, Stone. Sherri, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. Miss Foltz, when you hear of another and another and yet another deadly hazing has happened. What goes through your mind? It's just, it's unbearable to say the least. You know, we continue to hear stories. I continue to read it, you know, through Google alerts that it continues to happen. It's happening more often in high schools.

It's just, it's a nightmare. I remember, you know, four years ago now, hazing wasn't even spoken about. Now it's becoming more prominent. It's in the news more often. You hear about it every day. Joining me is Stone Fultz's mom. There have been even more hazing arrests and hazing incidents since the case we're covering right now, tonight.

But I want to remind everyone who is Stone Fultz. Listen. What county name? What is your emergencyoltz. Listen. What county name? What is your emergency? Hi. Someone that we know is non-responsive. He drank alcohol, like a lot of alcohol. Where is he at?

We're at... How old is your friend? He's 20. 20, okay. And what's he doing right now? He's laying down on his side. His face is really purple, and his pupils aren't responsive. Okay.

Is he breathing? Yeah, he's breathing, but it's really shallow. And he's been drinking, you said? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Is he taking anything else we need to you said? Yeah. Okay. Is he taking anything else we need to know about? No. What's your name?

Okay. Family pageant. Okay. Are you positive he's breathing? Yeah. Yeah, I'm positive. Do you see his chest rising up and down? No, not right now.

Okay. And he's blue? Yeah. Okay, and he's blue? Yeah. Okay, then there's a good chance he's not breathing. I want you to get down, is he on the floor? Yeah, he is. Okay, do you see his chest rising at all? She said, does he see his chest rising?

I don't see it rising, guys. Okay, do you know how to do CPR or do you want me to walk you through it? She said we have to do CPR or do you want me to walk you through it? Do we have to do CPR? Oh, my. Is there somebody else there that can do CPR? No, no, no. I can walk you guys through it.

Joining me is Stone's mother, Sherry. Ms. Foltz, what happened to Stone? Stone was in his sophomore year at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, and he had decided last minute to join a fraternity. Through the process of joining the fraternity, they were required to do several different, I guess you would call rituals, traditions. And as we know now today, as we have learned over time, that's called grooming. So they basically groom you into thinking these things are okay and what you have to do in order to join a fraternity. It ended up early March where the Big Little event was taking place.

It is an event that reveals the Big Brother for the members joining the fraternity. Stone, he ended up going there that night and was taken down into a basement at the fraternity house. And there was seven other pledges that night, pledging to be in that fraternity. And they tied a blindfold over their eyes, walked them down the stairs to the basement. And there was really loud, heavy metal music playing, made them very disoriented. Took them down there, were screaming, yelling at them, you know, and then they actually had them take off their blindfold. And in front of them was standing their big brother, who had a bottle of liquor in their

hand, which they call the family bottle. It's basically passed down as a tradition from each big brother's family bottle. And he was handed that bottle and he was coerced or forced into drinking that entire bottle. And throughout the night, which was only 20 minutes, he had finished that bottle because he, his big brother was cheering him on. And the other big brothers were throwing out the other pledges, drinks,

you know, trying to help them out, giving them a chaser. And he ended up basically being incoherent. He had asked to go home. They drug him up the stairs out. Three of the members drove him back to his apartment. They drug him up the stairs into his apartment, laid him on the couch, backpacked him. And for one last enjoyment, took a video of him and said that he was snoring, making fun of them when actually he was aspirating and dying right in front of their eyes. They then left him there and his roommate showed up. We don't know when, but he didn't wasn't aware of how much or if Stone had been drinking.

But obviously the sight of him noticed, you know, he was in trouble. He ended up calling Stone's girlfriend, who you heard on the 911 call, Maddie. Maddie ended up calling 911. You know, there was talk about fear of retaliation and what the attorney would do if, you know, Stone did survive. What they would do to him or the other people within the apartment. And from there, you heard the 911 call. Ms. Fultz, I noticed your delivery when you say what happened to your boy. I've been asked so many times what happened to my fiance that I can now recite it because I don't want

to feel it. I don't want to think about what I'm saying, but I know the story enough that I can recite it. Sometimes when people ask me, I go, well, that was a long time ago, so I don't have to recite it again. How do you steel yourself to tell that story? I think, you know, to tell that story, I hear the 911 call. You know, often we actually play it in our presentations that we deliver to high schools and universities. Just because it is an emotional something to hear, I think people need to hear it. I think these young adults need to hear it because this is real. To tell his story over and over, it is hard.

It rips the Band-Aid right off. But I know that by telling his story, we can hopefully look for change. We're saving lives. And that's the promise that I made to Stone when I walked in the ICU room and saw all the tubes and everything on him and not breathing on his own. We had a ventilator. I knew what was going on. And I told him, the thing we could do is, is to fight to make sure this does not happen to any other family and to another student. And I guess, and that's what I'm trying to do is just retell his story so that people understand this is real and this is happening and it has to be taken

seriously and things need to be done that are going to take care of hazing once and for all. Listen to Rex H. Elliott. Stone Foltz joined this fraternity to network for a resume building. He saw red flags that this wasn't good. And that night he was brought in. He was told to take his tie off. They blindfolded him, took him down to a basement along with the other pledges and forced them to drink a handle of alcohol before they were allowed to leave. Then the active members took Stone Fultz, a completely incapacitated Stone Fultz, to his apartment and left him there, left him on the couch, face down on the couch by himself. And by the way, clear up one quick thing. While that young woman was on the 911 call, his roommate had come home.

He was a Boy Scout and he was performing CPR at the time. But that's what they did. These actives forced him to drink. A 150-pound kid who really didn't even have a long drinking history. And they left him at the apartment all by himself to slowly die at the hospital. Hours later, his blood alcohol content was 0.394. That's a fifth of bourbon in 20 minutes on a boy that had hardly ever even tasted alcohol on the heels of Stone Fultz's death. Now this. He was taken to a remote area of the county and at some point by pre-arrangement people came out of the woods all dressed in black.

They were armed with what appeared to be at least one handgun and at least one knife. In Syracuse, New York, five underclassmen on the West Hill high school lacrosse team are excited when older teammates invite them to go to watch a rival school's lacrosse match and dinner at McDonald's. Upperclassmen are not known for including younger teammates in social events and the boys see this as an opportunity to be accepted by the older players on the team. The individual had a pillowcase placed over his head. He was tied up and placed in the trunk of a car. That from our friends at Syracuse.com.

Ms. Folt, does it never end? Unfortunately, it's not. I'm hearing more and more stories. Like I said earlier, it's heartbreaking. It's not ending. It's so much more prominent in high schools, and we only hear about it when it gets reported. So, you know, you just think about all the incidents that are happening that are not even getting reported. The number is outstanding, and something needs to be done about it.

And I, kudos to Mr. Fitzpatrick for doing what he's doing. I think that's the number one thing is we have to get these DAs and the judges to understand and place a huge penalty against these, these students who are doing these acts that need to understand that, you know, lives are being taken from hazing. And I just thank you for what he is doing. I think it's very important. I think it starts there. They need to be taken seriously. And that's the only way we're going to get hazing to end is if it's taken seriously. And our DAs and judges, as I said, need to do it. The night takes a turn for the young boys when on the way home, the driver of the car suddenly loses his way, pulling over to the side in a secluded area. In what seems like a blink of an eye, the boys are surrounded by masked assailants

armed with knives and possibly even a gun. He wasn't lost. The driver pulled over intentionally for hazing. Hazing, this is what happens. Listen. He was taken to a remote area of the county and at some point, by prearrangement, people came out of the woods all dressed in black. They were armed with what appeared to be at least one handgun and at least one knife.

The individual had a pillowcase placed over his head. He was tied up and placed in the trunk of a car. That from our friends at Syracuse.com. And then the District Attorney William Fitzpatrick issues a stark warning. You have 48 hours to turn yourself in to the Sheriff's Department. Joining me, an all-star panel, in addition to Mrs. Fultz joining us, Mary Keeler is joining us, investigative reporter, CNY Central Media Group. Mary, thank you for being with us. What happened? What we know is that it was a serious criminal hazing act that District Attorney Bill Fitzpatrick called hazing on steroids when he started that press conference. You just

pulled a little bit of sound from there. But we know that 11 upperclassmen, we know at least four of them are 18 from a source close to the investigation. They put together a ruse that authorities say was maybe even practiced or a dry run was done the Wednesday night before the April 24th. That was not last Thursday, but the Thursday before that they were going to have younger students go to a lacrosse game with the upperclassmen, then go to McDonald's for dinner. That was quickly found out to be a ruse. They were tied at the hands. They had a pillowcase placed over their head. They were placed in a trunk of a car driven to a remote part of Onondaga County. And it's there, we're told, that many other members of the team are

there with black clothing. They're coming out of a wooded area in what appears to be a gun and a knife, and they're all wearing black clothing. And we also know that this whole ordeal was videotaped, that there was a video, at least, that authorities have seen that has been circulating. But what we do know is that this could have gone a lot worse. We just confirmed with the district attorney before I joined this program that he believes it based on interviews with investigators for people who have come in that it was an airsoft gun that was used. But his point being that if a member of law enforcement that was on duty pulled over or drove by that scene in that remote part of the county with some sort of weapon drawn, whether it be real or fake, it could have been a completely different scenario. Joining us now, in addition to Mary Keeler and Sherry Fultz is a renowned attorney in this field representing victims'

families. David Bianchi joining us, trial lawyer Stuart Tillman, Fox, Bianchi, and Kane. Thank you for being with us. Did you just hear the description and this was rehearsed? There's no way really to argue this was hazing that got out of hand. This was rehearsed. Nancy, you're right. It was rehearsed and it's unimaginable that this still goes on. But let me just give you my perspective on this. I've been involved in these hazing cases for maybe 25 years or so, and I've seen all kinds of bad things. And at this point in time, in the year 2025, almost every state in the country has an anti-hazing law. Every major university has an anti-hazing policy. Every major fraternity and sorority has an anti-hazing policy, yet it continues. So what we're doing to try to stop it is not working. But you remember,

six years ago at Cornell, Antonio Cialis died after a night of hazing, and the next day they found his body at the bottom of a gorge. And despite the fact that it was hazing on steroids, in that case also, also in the state of New York, no criminal charges were ever filed against anybody. So what kind of a message does that sound? So we've got to get a very, very weak message. And I want to throw this to our shrink joining us, clinical forensic psychologist, visiting scholar, Boston College and author of The New Evil, Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime. Joining us, Dr. Gary Bricado. Dr. Bricado, thank you for being with us. What I don't understand is why we keep sugarcoating this to call it hazing incident. I mean, Dr. Bricado,

I'm going to do something with you that no lawyer is allowed to do with a jury in a criminal prosecution. And that is asked you to put yourself in the shoes of the victim. You just heard Sherry Fultz describe what was done to her son, left there and mocked, videoed as he was dying. Now in the case in chief, you have boys assailed with hoods put over their heads, hoods, black hoods put over their heads, put in car trunks. What if that happened to you? What if the worst thing that happened to the defendant that did that to you was that he couldn't go to work for six months. Really? Because that's what the penalty is, Dr. Procato. No, it's awful. What I find so especially horrifying about hazing cases is that they are a perversion of the idea of seeking affiliation, closeness, a family-like connection with a group of people.

And of course, the idea is to break down the will, the morality of an individual. So they basically will do whatever it is that you want them to do. You groom them to do that. It's very similar to what you see in cults or abusive relationships, things like that. And of course, in those groups, there are going to be a mixture of people who are seeking that kind of bond and who are afraid. The greater the fear, the more likely you are to create a cohesive bond like that. That's an ancient thing that happens to human beings. Dr. Bricado, you know what? All of this is just running by like a stream. The penalty, the penalty for what they did.

You just heard one moment ago, David Bianchi, the lawyer, state that one hazing victim was found at the bottom of a gorge dead and there were no charges. I mean, OK, listen to this doctor. Players and parents of the Varsity West Hill High School lacrosse team are informed by the school district their season is officially over. The reason given was not just the hazing incident, but the increased media attention and concerns that other teams would not want to play against West Hill. The season is over. That's the punishment that the lacrosse season is over. No. And. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hazing, in other words, murder, kidnapping, aggravated assault, is not going to end.

If the worst that happens is the lacrosse season is over. Boo hoo. And you read where parents are upset about this and it's like, but you don't understand what that victim is going to face potentially for the rest of his life. You know, that is going to haunt him. He is going to have mental health issues probably for the rest of his life. I don't think parents and the staff of these high schools understand the severity that it is causing. You know, they just say these are pranks or, you know, it's not to be meant to be harmful or it's just, you know, unsportsmanlike conduct. These things need to be taken seriously and there needs to be charges pressed and it's the only way. If there's several of them that are 18, they need to be tried as adults. It needs to

be taken further. Otherwise, it's just going to continue to happen. Outnumbered 11 to 1, the boy's hands are tied and a pillowcase is placed over his head before he is thrown into the trunk of a car at knife point. The kidnappers taunt the boy as they drive to another secluded, wooded area of the county and dump him on the ground. A nightmare as the boy is left alone in fear for his life. Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, renowned professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

and now star of the hit podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. But for my purposes, he is a death investigator who has investigated literally thousands of death scenes. Joe Scott Morgan, by putting a hood over a young boy or anybody's face, a hood, securing it around their head, over their nose, over their mouth. I mean, think of Tot Mom's case, Kelly Anthony, where Kelly's nose and mouth were covered in duct tape. Okay. Think of a most recent case that you and I covered, little Miranda Corsetti, where she had something put over her head, the dangers of putting a hood, as in this case, over anyone's head, much less an unsuspected

high school boy and throwing them in the trunk. What happens? Of course, tragedy. Joe Scott, what happens when someone is hooded and thrown in a trunk? Well, the first thing that happens, Nancy, is the fact that you're putting this person in the position of suffering from severe sensory deprivation. And when that, that means that they have, they're completely disoriented and it's a, you just, they're. Okay. I'm sorry, Joe Scott Morgan. You're the death investigator focused on D-E-A-T-H, death. When you have a hood or a covering over your nose and mouth, I just gave you two examples. Kelly Anthony and Miranda Corsetti. Two examples.

Their faces were covered. They died. Can we talk about being disoriented at the end? People die, Joe Scott, with coverings over their face. The important part of this, Nancy, that I was trying to get at is the fact that they begin to shallow breathe. And if an individual is using a bag or a hood, they're shallow breathing, and then it's not going to be porous, perhaps. And so their oxygen is greatly reduced. You talk about binding of hands, they're sequestered in a dark space, and then they're set out, and they have no way of being

able to take care of themselves. And so that fear will cause an adrenaline spike in them, Nancy. And many times an individual with shallow breathes, this can actually lead to cardiorespiratory arrest. That was the point I was trying to make. And they have no idea as to what might happen to them. You can imagine some of the thoughts that are running through their mind. Am I going to be beaten to death? Am I going to be abandoned? Is it cold?

Am I going to be subjected to this? All these questions are rolling through their mind. And all the while, they're anxious. And so they shallow breathe and they can't breathe. That's one of the things that happens that brings about death in cases like this, Nancy. You know what, Joe Scott? You're right. So the shallow breathing when you're, as you say, disoriented and afraid, how does that lead to asphyxiation?

Well, the airway is blocked and if you're shallow breathing or it's compromised, we won't say blocked, but it is greatly compromised. And so the individual can actually go into a cardiac arrest as a result of that, you have, there's no, here's the problem. You have no way of understanding what an individual's anatomy and physiology is. We're all predisposed to certain types of responses in our body. So this young man, he's a kid. He, you have no idea of the effects that are happening on his body specific that are specific to him. It's kind of like these alcohol poisoning cases where you have individuals that are forced to drink copious amounts of alcohol. Okay. You know, we commonly think that 0.4 is lethal range and it generally is. But if somebody has a tolerance for this sort of thing, they can go above that. And I've actually seen that happen in my career. But it impacts the individual very specific to them.

So you don't know what you're doing to this child. And he is a child when you take him out here and abandon him. A hazing prank goes horribly wrong to Barry Hutchinson joining us. Twenty six years in L.A. law enforcement. Now owner, chief investigator, Barry and associates. Barry, thank you for being with us. What I don't understand is when you throw a hood, a black hood over a boy's head, force him, tie his hands and force him into a trunk. Why wouldn't there be charges of kidnapping? And in the other case we've discussed, why not murder charges?

Why? Well, Nancy, first of all, let me say to everybody that's listening, there's a very distinct difference between a prank and a felony. And what these guys did is an absolute felony. I mean, even if it would have been a toy gun, as long as that person believed, and you know this, the prosecutor, as long as that person

believes that it's a real gun, it can be a toy gun. The law's the same. It's an imminent threat. They believe it's an imminent threat, so they're supposed to act accordingly under the letter of law. Why this hasn't been, you know, pursued nationwide as an actual crime is beyond me because it's well beyond that. And the schools aren't doing anything about it. They don't want their names to be sullied.

Well, it's not just the schools, Barry. It's not just the schools. It's law enforcement. It's prosecutors all across the country going light on hazing incidents. So they keep happening to David Bianchi joining me. High profile trial lawyer who is America's leading hazing lawyer. David, you mentioned the case of a hazing victim found at the bottom of a gorge. We always hear the big lead up.

Turn yourself in at 48 hours or else. But it's what happens after that. The perps are either not treated as adults. Of course, we all know juveniles can't be tried as adults or they're given light sentences. How often in a case like this, even when there is a death, David Bianchi, do you see a murder charge? Look, I can't hold a gun to your face and pull the trigger. And when you're dead, I go, oh, I just meant to scare him. That's not the letter of the law, David.

No, no, Nancy, it's not. And to answer your question, how many times have I seen a murder charge where someone dies in hazing? Never. I can tell you never. And in many of the instances, I don't see any charges. I come back to Antonio Cialis at Cornell, 2019, a very carefully orchestrated night of hazing. And the next day he's found dead at the bottom of a gorge. Not a single criminal charge filed. I reached out to the prosecutor at Thompson County, spoke to the office, laid out all the evidence about why they should bring the charges. They never filed a single charge. And the universities go light on these guys to participate. And it just leads to the same thing over and over again. It doesn't curtail the conduct.

And I don't care how many laws you pass or how many seminars they have to go to. It's not enough. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace his wrists and hands are bound and a pillowcase thrown over his head as he's stuffed into the trunk of a car the masked men drive and dump the boy at another secluded area as they taunt and mock the underclassmen i want you to hear about the case of Danny. Listen. Danny Santulli is still unable to speak. He has massive brain damage. He's lost his eyesight. He's blind and he cannot walk. They got all these pledges to come to the fraternity house. They all had to take off their shirts. They then were all blindfolded. This is all on video. You don't have to trust what I'm

telling you. It's all on surveillance video. They then paraded them down into the basement and down there they met their dad and they removed their blindfolds. They were given their bottle, their family bottle of alcohol. Many of them then had the bottle taped to their hand. They then paraded upstairs with the bottle taped to their hand and then started to drink with the alcohol that was spread out around the house. Reports, eyewitnesses relate that a funnel, a funnel was actually put, shoved into Danny's mouth. Listen. The officer comes along, puts a tube in his mouth with a funnel, pours beer down his throat after he had consumed about half the bottle of alcohol. And approximately 20 minutes later, while Danny is still out in the courtyard with maybe 100 pledges and track members, you can see Danny start to wobble and then he collapses. You see him fall backwards over a piece of furniture and onto the ground.

They then pick him up. They carry him into the house and they put him in a TV room where they have couches. And a couple of guys bring him in and they plop him down on the couch. And he's still alive. He's moving around, but you can tell he's in distress. And more. So now Danny is totally left alone. He's now flat on the couch.

He slides off the couch with his face planted on the floor and his feet on the couch. And he's not moving at all. They see that he's unresponsive on the couch and they think, oh, my God, maybe he's dead. And they go to pick him up. And he's having a hard time picking Danny up. So they get some big guy to pick him up and they scoop them up off the couch and they're not going to call 9-1-1 and they're holding them upside down if you can picture such a thing and as they're getting to the exit door they drop him on his head and then they have to get him back up again and they carry him outside put him in the car he's now technically dead they get him over to the uh hospital uh to the er somebody comes running out from the ER. They do CPR and they restart his heart. Oh, my stars. Does it never end? David Bianchi, what happened to Danny? Danny Santulli at the University of Missouri is the worst fraternity hazing injury where the victim lived in the history of the United States. You cannot be more seriously injured than the injuries that Danny has.

He is alive today, being taken care of by his parents. That's their choice in their home. Again, their choice. And his condition is unchanged today. He still is blind, can't walk, can't speak, will never be able to take care of himself. All because he went through a hazing incident that's been repeated hundreds of times around the United States over many years. The passing of the family bottle of alcohol. And every time it happens, everybody says, we're going to make sure this never happens again. And it does happen again because we're not doing the right things to stop it.

When Robert Champion was experiencing a ritual hazing at Florida A&M, at least 18 band members were present. Band members described a chaotic and violent ritual called Crossing Bus C. The band bus is parked behind an Orlando hotel after a game, and Champion has to push his way from the front of the bus to the back. With roughly 20 people punching, kicking, and hitting him with drum mallets. Was he like shaking or anything like that prior to this? No, he wasn't shaking. I don't even know how it was.

He was just sitting there. We were just talking. And they said, you know, he was shaking and not doing anything. Okay, he's totally lying. The boy was not just sitting there. This young man, Robert Champion, for Pete's sake, he was a member of the band. The band. I mean, David Bianchi, how often do you think of the school band turning violent and killing a band member? Never. Maybe lacrosse, maybe football, but the band for Pete's sake, Bianchi? No, no, you're right. Hardly ever. Dr. Bricado, even in the band, fatal hazing. Unfortunately, in any group of people where there are people that are trying to come together under the umbrella of, you know, group brotherhood, sisterhood, whatever, it can bring out this awful quality in people where some sadistic person who wants you to depend upon them convinces other people in the group to basically participate in a process of breaking these people so that in the name of cohesion, you give up your will and you're abused.

And it is horrendous. And I have to tell you, Nancy, I think it's wonderful that you're calling it out because it is not properly prosecuted often, I think, because it's not. It's not, Dr. Bricado. And there's no nice way to say it. We keep calling it hazing. This is an aggravated assault. The other cases are murder. And what I don't understand to Joe Scott Morgan, who was describing what actually happens when you have a hood put over your head, your hands are bound, you're breathing shallowly and you're thrown in the trunk of a car. Joe Scott Morgan, if this happened to an adult, not a child, these would be murder and kidnapping charges. As a matter of fact, Joe Scott, you have everybody on this panel is going to know this 911 caller is lying about what happened to this young man, the band member Robert Champion.

Listen to this, Joe Scott. Are you with him right now? Yes, I'm with him, ma'am. I'm trying to give him CPR. I want you to lay him on the floor. Is he on the floor? OK. Yes, ma'am.

He's on the floor. OK. Is there anything under him? No, no, ma'am. There's nothing on there. OK. Is there anything under him? No, no, no, there's nothing on there. Okay. Is there an AED available? Just got Morgan and AED running, get one in the hotel. What? It's too late for that. Robert is dead. And that 911 caller is lying that Robert, the little boy on the band was just sitting there and suddenly died. That's a lie.

Yeah. It's a load of crap. And, you know, way they're, they're way past this idea that they're going to be able to defigure like this young man right now. He's just trying to cover his tracks.

Did you hear kind of how confused he was? Not really confused. He's trying to get his damn story straight at this point in time. And the thing about it, Nancy, is that when Mr. Champion died, there was a whole bus full of witnesses and also participants

that were egging this thing on. You know what, Joe Scott? I'm so glad you said that. Same thing here. And Mary Keeler, what are the charges in the current case? So because all 11 of those players that have turned themselves in within that 48-hour window, that amnesty window ultimatum that the district attorney gave last Tuesday,

what they were all given was an appearance ticket for unlawful imprisonment. That is a Class A misdemeanor. Are any of them in jail? Let me make it, like, boil it down. Are any of them in jail? Okay. To Sherry Fultz, you heard Mary Keeler. None of them are in jail.

That was some ultimatum. It's never going to end unless we crack down and sentence these perps to jail time. Do I want to see a 17 or 18 year old go to jail? No. But what I don't want to see even more is another dead child over hazing. Absolutely. It's just so distraughting. And I think until staff of these high schools and parents, starts with the parents, take this seriously, it's not going to change.

We can do as much education as we want on it. And you know what? We can do as much education as we want. When you say that, Sherry Foltz, that means another mother, another mother like you is going to get that phone call. Another mother. Do you know, Sherry, that my children are looking at colleges right now? And every time we go look at a college. I think about Stone. I think about Stone. I think about Timothy. I think about Robert Champion.

It just, nothing is changing, Sherry. Nothing is changing. It's not, and it's very frustrating from the parents who have to continue to watch this, who've lost their child from hazing. And, you know, we send our kids off. I sent Stone off to college. You know, he was considered an adult. And you expect that the university, the university president, all the faculty are going to take care of them.

That they're doing what they're supposed to do in their jobs and preventing this, this type of tragedy. And unfortunately, How do you keep from just running out in the street and screaming your head off? Every day. It's, it's definitely, it's mental. I've learned to, you know, just deal with it and continue to do as many speaking engagements that we can. We're fighting to push more laws, you know, and, you know, the federal law was passed this previous last October, November. And, you know, those types of laws being passed, if we can't enforce them, because the federal law was a transparency act, and more transparency is being pushed upon hazing. But if these laws are not being enforced, it's not going to do any good. If you know or think you know anything about the current hazing incident, dial 315-435-3044. We remember American hero Sergeant Lionel Martinez Jr., Alamo College PD,

Texas, 21 years in law enforcement, leaving behind wife turned widow, Claudia, children, Liza, Lionel, Kimberly, Kathleen and Lacey. American hero, Sergeant Lionel Martinez Jr. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.