Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - H.S. Teacher Pamela Smart Poses in Undies, Orders "Mob Hit" on Hubby.

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

Pamela Smart will not be getting out of prison. For the third time, the convicted murderer requested a hearing for a sentence reduction and for the third time, the request has been denied. Smart's request was rejected in a 5-0 vote by a New Hampshire state council. Even though Smart denied plotting to kill her husband, she was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and other crimes, and sentenced to life without parole. Gregory Smart was shot and killed by a15-year-old student with whom Pamela smart was having an affair. Smart was 22 and working as a high school media coordinators. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - Family Attorney (North Carolina), www.ncdomesticlaw.com, Twitter: @RalDivorceLaw, Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark" Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Chris Byers - Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia, 25 years as Police Officer, Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner,  www.chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com  Jax Miller - News writer for Oxygen.com, True Crime Author, Author: "Hell in The Heartland: Murder, Meth, and The Case of Two Missing Girls", Facebook: "RealJaxMiller", Twitter/Instagram: @RealJaxMiller, Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Will she never go away? Why is she still talking? I'm talking about Pam Smart. Remember her? Gorgeous, beautiful, and an alleged crime that shocked not only a community, but a country. In fact, a story with so many twists and turns,

it was developed into a major motion picture for the big screen. That's right, Pamela Smart. You may remember her as posing on a bed in some silky white push-up bra and undies. That Pam Smart? Well, here's the latest. Take a listen to our friends at WMUR 9. Smart was asking the executive counsel for a hearing where she could petition for the possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew Walensky was concerned about her lack of responsibility for what happened. If she's unable to come to terms with that, that creates concerns for me.

OK, wait a minute. Come to terms with that, that creates concerns for me. Okay, wait a minute. Come to terms with murder? Okay, we're hearing all of this, but how did it all start? How are we at this point today? Take a listen to this. 18-year-old Pam Wojcic was a freshman in college who loved to party, and she was instantly drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down on the couch

and started flirting with him and twirling his hair. With his rocker haircut and boyish smile, 20-year-old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was a great guy. If somebody said, hey, let's go away for the weekend and it was Friday night, he would go. He always lived like that. Greg was also known as the ladies' man.

Greg was seeing, as usual, a bunch of other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to flock to him. But soon after Greg met Pam, he began to change his ways and settle down. Over time, it slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to write poems, and she sent me a lot of them. When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January of 1988, she accepted. Wow, it seems like a storybook relationship, but not with a storybook ending.

You were just hearing our friends at Investigation Discovery. For those of you just joining us, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Pam Smart hits the headlines again, breaking developments in her case. We all remember Pam Smart from the infamous photo of her posing doggy style on a bed and a push-up bra and lingerie. Well, that didn't end well. Take a listen to our clip three.

Our friends at Investigation Discovery. Pam dreamed of a career in television. She was struggling to try to find a job as a reporter, which is what she really wanted to do. Instead, she landed a job as the media services director for the local school district, where her responsibilities included making educational videos. One of the projects that she had decided to do was some kind of a documentary which would involve some of the kids in the surrounding high school and that was going to be about self-esteem. She worked closely with student volunteers including 15 year old

Cecilia Pierce. Cecilia Pierce was Pamela Smart's student intern and she became a really close friend in Conferant which was a little bit unusual. Long-haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is an aspiring rock musician. He plays electric guitar. And he's got long hair. He is exactly what her husband, Greg, used to be. Okay, wait a minute. Now she's teaching a student and is attracted to a student that is just like her husband,

how he used to be. We definitely need a shrink for that. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, developments in the Pam Smart case. You may recall the movie To Die For with Nicole Kidman playing the role of Pam Smart. With me, Kathleen Murphy, high-profile family lawyer. That's certainly putting perfume on the pig. No me. Kathleen Murphy, high profile family lawyer. That's certainly putting perfume on the pig. No offense, Kathleen Murphy. Joining me out of North Carolina, you can find her at MNCDomesticLaw.com.

Renowned psychologist joining us out of the Manhattan jurisdiction in New York at KarenStarr.com. That's Karen with a C. Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, lecturer at University of Florida Medical School, Forensic Science, and founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference.

Now, to me, that sounds like a whole lot of fun. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. Chris Byer is joining us, former police chief, Johns Creek, Georgia, 25 years on the force, now PI and polygrapher at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraph.com. But first, I want to go to a special guest joining us today from Oxygen.com, true crime author, Hell in the heartland. Whoa, murder and meth in the case of two missing girls.

I'm on it. Jax Miller, thanks for being with us. Tell me about Pam Smart and husband Greg Smart's relationship. And it's kind of freaky that she then takes a liking to a boy, a teen boy in her class at school that's just like Greg, except a newer model. I'm going to call in a shrink on that, but tell me, Jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart? How did she grow up? Where is this place, Derry, New Hampshire, and who is Greg Smart? Well, it's funny that you use the word storybook before because Derry,

New Hampshire is that storybook setting. It's that fall foliage in New England. It's the church people poking out. It's a town of like 34,000. Wait, hey, you know what you just made me think of? Sure. You know those calendars that have, Jackie's shaking her head, yes, there's calendars. And it's of nature and outdoors.

And they'll have some beautiful fall foliage picture and then they'll have a spire poking up with a cross on the top of church spire in the middle of it it's just gorgeous that's what you made me think of Jack that's exactly what it was and you know it's it's really nice because it's only like 45 minutes away from Boston so it's a nice alternative for people who don't want the hustle bustle of the city. But it's just like it's just like that that that storybook setting what you see on TV. It's that perfect New England image. In fact, Robert Frost was from there, I believe. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It's really. How big of a town is Derry, New Hampshire?

So it's it's about thirty four thousand people and it's right in between Manchester and Salem. And like I said, it's not the big city, but it's close enough to the big city. It's really just like the perfect all-American town. And, yeah, that's where Greg and Pam were, and they had this rock and roll marriage. It was kind of perfect in a way, and I say that as a metalhead myself, of course, but it was that perfect headbanging you know rock and roll they had a dog named halen you know very very rock and roll but it seemed very loving on the outside okay hold on i'm just drinking out of the fire hydrant here it's just too much too fast i'm sorry okay the, perfect headbanger rock and roll marriage.

You know, I hadn't really thought about it like that. But I'm going to take that into consideration. You know, let me go to you first, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us in Manhattan today. Karen, I, first of all, I don't think I've ever seen anyone that reminds me of my husband in his youth. But that's kind of freaky. It's like thinking, considering replacing your husband with a younger version of your husband.

What does that mean? You know what makes me think of Nancy? Not a younger David, but somebody who isn't committed to the relationship, is not really capable of attaching, having commitment. And when we think about younger version, we're not talking about somebody who's a few years younger. We're talking about a minor's a few years younger. We're talking about a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's like pedophilia. Well, you know, if you all weren't awake before, you hear pedophilia, you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just to put it euphemistically, you have seen your share of divorce cases. Have you ever, of course, we always hear of men, no offense, men, marrying a younger woman. Don't usually hear of women

marrying a younger guy, dumping their husbands for a younger guy, but I guess it does happen. But long story short, Kathleen Murphy and all the divorces you've seen, have you seen a woman replace her husband for a younger version of the husband? Are you asking me, have you seen a woman replace her husband for a younger version of the husband? Are you asking me if I've seen a woman replace their husband for a child? Never. Because that's exactly what Pam Smith did. I'm asking you, have you seen a woman replace her husband with a younger version? I don't mean just a younger guy. I mean, somebody that looks, talks, acts, walks like the husband, but younger. That's pretty rare. I don't see that a lot. I see them going to the opposite of what their husband was.

That's a good point. That's a good point. Spring breakers and parents, beware. The disappearance of honor student Natalie Holloway is a warning. We head to Aruba with Natalie's mom. What can we learn? Nancy Grace's shocking new investigation. Streaming now only on Fox Nation. Sign up today.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jax Miller joining us, news writer for Oxygen.com and shoe crime author. So Pam Smart dreamed of a career in TV, such as being a reporter. Is that correct? That's what they say, yes. Yeah, that's what she wanted. She had gotten into media. That's how she got the job at the high school. She was media director there actually okay yes let me ask you about that jax

miller everybody jack's joining us from oxygen.com jax what exactly was her position at the high school so pam worked at winnicott high school where she was a media director um she did have high school interns working with her, including Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a media director. She was an employee. She was about 22 years old, and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now, what does media director be? Because I understand she went off on a tangent making some type of a documentary with the students. Is that correct? Yeah, she made a documentary about self-esteem. I think she was trying to improve self-esteem with her students, which is kind of ironic given the whole situation.

But that's what she did. She would make these videos and involve the students. Okay, guys, take a listen now to the student you hear Jax referring to Cecilia Pierce? I can't hear you. She sat me down in a chair. And what'd she say to you? She said, I think I'm in love with Bill. And what did you say to that? I laughed.

It was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. Why was it ridiculous? Because she was married. She was 22. And what did she do when you laughed? She just kept telling me over and over again. I'm serious. So what happened after that? About a week later, she told Bill. Did you have any heart to talk to Bill about this? I told Bill Pam wanted to see him. And didn't you say about a later, she told Bill, how do you know it was a week later? I'm not positive. That's when she told me that she told him about a week later.

You know, to you, Karen Stark, our renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan, it sounds like a note you would send in the first grade do you like me check yes if so check no if no or you you know pass it through a friend hey i like you will you marry me in the third grade that's what she's actually getting another teen girl to tell the teen boy, Billy Flynn, Bill Flynn, that she, quote, likes him. This doesn't sound like adults. None of it sounds like an adult, Nancy. It's not any kind of adult that we're used to.

And it's really, that was a great, a really astute observation, because when you think about high school, that's the kind of stuff you do. You tell your friend that you like somebody so that the friend can tell the other person and you get an answer, do you like me back? And she's just not mature. She's one of the kids is how she seems to see herself. What is that when you don't go beyond high school? Okay, this is a little off topic, but Karen, have you ever met those people that they still talk about, hey, I was a football captain in high school? Yeah. Was that the pinnacle when you were 16? The head of the cheerleaders. Hey, hey, hey, watch it. Wait a minute. I mean, it's like

she never got past the high school phase. This sounds more like fifth grade girls. What is that? It's an arrested development. That's exactly what it is. It's developmentally delayed. It's somebody who should be a certain age, but mentally they're not. They're not their actual age. It's just somebody who is not capable of getting older. Well, maybe they don't want to grow up. Maybe they don't want to. Perhaps they might not want to, but also they might not be capable. Like they've reached their peak, like you said, at an early age and they just can't go on to be somebody who is a complete adult, a mature, you know, capable of having any kind of real attachment. That's what she sounds like when you're describing her. You know, to Chris Byers, joining me, Foreign Police Chief

Johns Creek, Georgia Now, Chris Byers, Investigations and Polygraph.com. That's a really big mouthful for a website. Just so you know, Chris Byers, Investigations and Polygraph.com. All one word. I mean, you need to think about that. Anyway, that aside, Chris, I mean, you investigate divorces, cheaters, all sorts of investigations. That's just the tip of the iceberg for you. But have you ever seen a woman, very attractive woman? Many people think she's attractive. I don't, but many people do. Go for a teen boy for what? Okay, obviously for sex, but

that lasts about three minutes. Then that's over. Then what do you have? Yeah, absolutely. This is just absolutely absurd. I have never experienced anything like that in any investigations I've done. It's just completely twisted. I mean, you know, but that's what happened.

Now take a listen to this from the horse's mouth. Why? I don't know. But how, when we were working on the video, I was, well, I was told from the beginning, from Cecilia, that Bill had had a crush on me. And I didn't like him at first, but yes, I did. I did start to like him during the, but yes, I did. I did start to like him during the filming of the orange juice video.

Did you ever tell him that you liked him? Yes, I did. Could you tell the people in the jury how that came about? Cecilia had said that Bill was talking about me and that she thought that I should talk to him. And I believe he came over to my office and I had told him that I had known he had liked me and that I thought he was really nice and that I liked him too, but that I was married and that I was not interested in having a relationship with him.

What alternative universe are they living in? I mean, she's married. This is a teen boy in her class that are making an orange juice video together. And they're talking about, he liked me and I liked him. What? You know, I don't know. Jax Miller, you're the news writer for auction.com. I'm sure you see a lot of cases with affairs and sex relationships and marriages break up and murders happen. I saw it a lot as a prosecuting attorney. But even when you hear Pam Smart speak, she sounds like a 14-year-old. I was just going to say that. If I didn't know better, I literally thought I

was listening to a 15 year old talk about, oh, he likes me. You know, I like him, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's exactly what it sounds like. And it's really hard for me just listening to that clip right there to wrap my head that this is a grown married woman. I know. And Kathleen Murphy, have you ever had a woman come sit down in your office and she's willing to throw her family, her home, her career, her everything out the window to get it on with a teen boy, which is pedophilia? I mean, have you ever seen someone? No, no. This is the crazy Nancy. Not only did she take these steps with this minor child,

she thought that her relationship with this child was okay. And she now, she thinks she thought it was okay. She shared her relationship with the other kids. It was no secret. I know, which makes it even worse. Everybody knew. Guys, take a listen to more of the story of Pam Smart from the horse's mouth. Well, I didn't set out to have an affair with him but i did and in february i believe it was february 27th or

something it was during february vacation also while i was over his house we were working on the video we were in his room and he kissed me i really didn't want to have an affair and i was trying to fight my feelings were you successful successful? Up until March 24th. What happened on March 24th? Bill came over to my house, my condo in Derry. Was anyone with him? What was going on? Why that day?

Because Greg was gone to Atlantic City. I said I was gonna be by myself. Cecilia wanted to sleep over and Bill asked if he could come. Well, Bill was planning to asking if he could come over to your house when the president's gone. Do you think it's the same as Cecilia asking to come over and sleep over? No. Did you expect that when he was over, you would have sex with him?

Yes. Did you have sex with him when he came over? Yes. Did you have sex with Linda Campbell? Yes. I mean, this is breaking every rule of being a teacher, which I taught English while I was waiting to find out if I could get into law school. I mean, all the red flags. You don't, teachers don't go to children's homes when the parents are gone to tutor them. Everything she just said was wrong. Take a listen to what that student, Jackson Miller, first told us about the friend seemingly in the middle of the mix, Cecilia Price.

Cecilia Pierce. Did you ever see anything for yourself or hear anything for yourself which indicated the defendant was unhappy in her hearing? Yes. What was that? One day when I was going to Pam's office, fifth period, I walked in and she was on the phone apparently arguing with somebody and I looked at her and I said Greg and she shook her head yes and she was saying something about getting a divorce and then they started fighting over who was going to take the dog and the furniture and everything and then she said fine take the dog and she hung up and then she said I was I told her that was you know, if they were going to get a divorce. And she said, well, I don't know what to do. He's going to take the dog and the furniture.

And she called Greg's parents because, I mean, she called Greg back and told him she was sorry because she didn't want him to call his parents because she didn't want anyone to know they were having trouble. And more from Cecilia Pierce. Listen. Now, when she said she could either divorce or kill Greg, do you think she was serious? I thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it or have it done. And how often were you having these conversations with the defendant at this time? At first, it was just like every few days, and then it was every day.

And what kind of things would you be talking about? What was going on so far, like what they had discussed last period, period her and Bill had discussed and what they had decided upon things like to wear their hair tied back and to wear dark clothes and to make it look like a burglary of all people why would you confide your murder plan to a teen girl. Why? You might as well just put up a billboard on 3rd Avenue in New York. I'm going to kill my husband. Might as well. And then the moment comes. Take a listen to our friends at ABC Nightline. On May 1st, 1990, just a few days shy of their first wedding anniversary, everything changes. Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home about 10 o'clock.

She opens the front door, and in the vestibule is her husband. She starts banging on doors. Somebody call 911. Hurry, hurry. My husband, my husband. I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire, and the scanner radio goes off off and we understand that a young man has been murdered inside his condominium. He's got a bullet wound in the back of his head. This is this looks like a mob hit. This is an execution. I'm still haunted every day by memories of what must have happened to him inside our house before he was killed. It looks like Greg must have walked into the middle

of a botched, screwed up burglary. We noticed that several things were moved. We found that the upstairs as well had been ransacked. The dressers had been gone through completely. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, what did the investigator mean when he said it looked like a mob hit?

What are the earmarks of a mob hit? Well, thanks for having me on the show, Nancy. Oh, the earmarks of a mob hit are quite simple. Generally, it's a single, small caliber gunshot wound to the back of the head, generally when the victim is on their knees or on the ground somehow. How would you describe the injury to 24-year-old Greg Smart, Dr. Gallagher? I would describe it as a single, close-range gunshot wound to the back of the head that caused skull fracture, bleeding, and destruction of the brain. When the brain is hit by, for instance, a.22 caliber, which is a small caliber, the brain immediately quits telling the heart to function, and that's the cause of death, correct? Well,

generally, the heart does not need the brain to tell it to beat. You can actually take the heart out of the body, a beating heart out of the body, and it'll continue to beat. It does not need the brain to tell it to do so. But what the brain needs to do is tell the lungs to breathe, the lungs to expand and exhale so the person can absorb oxygen and to exhale their carbon dioxide. So that's generally the cause of death there. Jackie, when he was talking, did that make you notice that you were breathing? Because I did too. Okay, that settles it. I'm totally going to the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. That was just it.

So the brain doesn't tell the heart to beat. You're right. Of course you are. And I should have known that because people continue to live after their brain dead. Their heart keeps beating. So the brain has to tell the lungs to breathe. I thought that was involuntary as well. But no. No, no.

There is a nerve that goes from the brain to the lungs, and that nerve has to be activated by the brain to tell the lungs to either exhale or inhale. So that is destroyed during the injury that they receive from the gunshot wound, and that doesn't occur any longer, and that's generally the cause of death. In addition to the destruction of the other parts of the brain, the brain swelling and skull fractures, and then the loss of the cerebral spinal fluid, that will also contribute to the cause of death. But it's instantaneous. I'm curious, Dr. Gallagher, do you talk about topics like this when you're not at work? Depends on the company I keep. Are you married?

I mean, generally, yes, yes. Is your wife a doctor? She is, but she is a doctor for female cancers. So a gynecologic oncologist. Right, right, an op guy. You don't just kick this around with her at dinner? We like to watch the shows, and we talk about the shows, and we talk about the people on the shows and if we know them or not.

But generally, medical topics we talk about, but forensic topics such as the gore and the blood and stuff like that, not so much. Although that's what I like to talk about. Yeah, me too. That's why I hang out with my friends a lot. Me too. Okay. Guys, we're talking to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. And remember, panel, jump in. We're not at a tea party with Queen Elizabeth. So if you have something to say, say it. Of course, I'll probably immediately cut you off and reprimand you. But that said, I mean, Kathleen Murphy, are you getting the picture of this woman? It's a grown woman, and she's trading gossip about her love or sex affair with a teen boy, with a high school girl.

But, you know, she's not responsible for killing Greg Smart. You do know that. She's not responsible for that. According to Pam Smart and her mother. So, guys, what happens then? I find this really interesting, and I know, Jax Miller, you're going to do a backflip when you hear this.

Take a listen to our friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery. Less than 48 hours after finding her husband murdered, Pam phones local TV crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamela Smart calls me and asks me to interview her, which completely just blows me away and everybody else. When Spencer arrives for the interview, he's stunned by Pam's appearance. A little over 24 hours after a murder, the wife doesn't greet you dressed to the teeth.

Makeup perfect, hair perfect. He's even more stunned by Pam's strange behavior. One year ago today, we were married right about this time. One of the first things that Pamela says is, it's going to be our one-year wedding anniversary in a couple of days. How would it be if I go into the refrigerator, because I've got the top layer of our wedding cake, and I could go pull that out. You could get some B-roll of me doing that.

And wouldn't that make an emotional, poignant moment in your story? And I was like, holy cats, this girl is helping me produce the story. She's trying to produce the news story. Jax Miller. I remember when my fiance Keith was murdered just before our wedding. And I remember I couldn't even think straight. I just wanted to go out into a forest and howl. I just, I couldn't even form sentences. Did you hear what the news producer just said? Within less than 48 hours after the murder, Pam Smart's on the phone trying to do a lead story.

I wish you could see my face right now. My jaw is on the floor because I've never heard that before. This is the first time I'm hearing that. And I'm having a total WTF moment here. Like, what is that? What is going on? It's diabolical because she knows, oh, gosh, I don't even have words. It's shocking.

It's absolutely shocking. It is amazing. Karen Stark, jump in. Well, you know, I'm not the least bit surprised. Think about it. Nancy, she's describing how she feels about this guy. And she says, well, you know, but I'm married. She doesn't say he's 15.

She says, well, I'm married. Her morals are correct. She doesn't know what she's talking about. And all she's thinking about now, narcissistically, is that she's going to be in front of a camera and let's get the best story we could possibly get. I'm not surprised at all. I'm not shocked by this. It's all about drama. She's young in her head and she's not thinking about the loss of her husband, obviously. Not at all. Well, it goes quickly from high school whisperings in the hall about a sex affair with a teacher to ballistics.

Listen. Local parent, 45-year-old Vance Latime, claims he has information about a murder. He's very concerned because he thinks his son may be involved in a homicide. Latimi says that his 17-year-old son, J.R., and two of his friends have been talking about committing a murder. Mr. Latimi gets to find out that the gun that was supposed to use was a.38.

He owns a.38. He goes and checks to see whether his gun is, in fact, still where he thought it was supposed to be. Well, he opens his dresser. He takes a look at this firearm. He says, well, wait a second, I didn't clean this. Why is it clean now? The gun is sent out for ballistics testing.

When the results come back, police are astonished. The single bullet that killed Greg Smart was fired from Latime's gun. Police suddenly have three suspects in the murder. 17-year-old J.R. Latime and his friends. 16-year-old Pete Randall. And 16-year-old Billy Flynn. straight out to chris byers former police chief now pi and polygrapher chris byers uh i think that a lot of people don't get and they shouldn't they're civilians why should they know this that a ballistics match is just as positive as a fingerprint, a human fingerprint. Explain.

Yeah, every firearm is different. The barrel has grooves and spiraling in it, and when the projectile leaves the muzzle of that firearm, it leaves an imprint that matches only to that firearm. So like you say, it's just like the human fingerprint. There's only one of those that are going to match up. And so it's easy when you have that projectile to come back, find that firearm, shoot some rounds through it and compare it and know that that is the firearm, that that was fired from. I always wished I had a video to show GERARs when guns are actually made. They're made of boiling hot lead. And when the barrel cools down, there are drippings and

irregularities on the inside of the barrel, the inside of the barrel. And they harden, and they can never be changed. So when a bullet hurtles down that barrel so fast, it leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches, that no other gun can leave so when you find the gun in question you take a bullet and you go to the crime lab and you fire it into a tub of water or a pillow and then you take your known bullet that you just fired and the bullet from the body or the scene you look at them under a microscope and you can see the exact same squiggles or markings on the two bullets. That is how you do it. Right, Chris? Absolutely. That's exactly how

it works. Well, amazingly, there was more evidence. Jax Miller, what do you think was the single most damning evidence at trial? Well, I think it was two things. I think it was Cecilia Pierce wearing a wire to get, you know, all the information that Pam divulged to her. And I think it was Billy Flynn copping to a plea deal in exchange for his testimony. I think that those were the biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn, the teen boy lover. What was his testimony, Jax? So he really, he said everything. He was in this illicit relationship with Pam. She was telling him that Greg was abusive.

She was afraid that if she tried to divorce him or leave him, that he would take the dog and take the money and take the furniture. So that's why he did what he did. Take a listen to our friend Juju Chang at ABC. You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment, the moment everybody remembers was Simpson. It was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart in a white strapless bikini posing suggestively on a bed. As if this super sensational trial isn't crazy enough already. My God. They were made between her and a friend, a girlfriend, for a modeling contest. They took photos of each other.

Those photographs made it into court, and the prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those to be seductive, to get Billy Flynn to do her bidding, to kill her husband. She said she didn't want them, she's just gonna throw them out. If I wanted them, I'd get them. When those photographs come in, you can see it kind of was overwhelming for a teenage boy.

This was a lot of sex for a 16-year-old to have. You can get that sense that it had a lot of influence on him, a lot of power over him, enough to make him kill. Phil Flynn was actually 15 at the time. Jax Miller, you hear Pam Smart's mother insisting that these photos that came into trial were innocent. They were taken for a modeling contest. But they came into evidence. Isn't it true the prosecution says these illicit photos taken by Pam Smart were given to Bill Flynn, the teen boy? Yeah, you know, I know that there were the photos.

I know that they had the photos. I know that they had watched some sexually charged films together. I mean, it was very clear that she was seducing this child, essentially. And yeah, that was one of the hugest factors in how she got this young boy to kill for her. I mean, she can say no, no, no until she's blue in the face. But then when the jury sees the photo, she's sending this teen boy. There's really no question in their minds. She set out to seduce the boy. That's child molestation. And then what else would she do?

That was the question for the jury. It was no big surprise when Pam Smart was convicted. But what is a surprise is that even to this day, she refuses to accept responsibility. Take a listen to our friends at WBZ for Boston. I sat down, interviewed her in prison, and she told me she will never admit to planning that murder. It's been 29 years. Is it time to just admit you did it and say you're sorry? Again, I don't think so, because I don't think that a person

should admit to a crime they didn't commit. Would it be worth it to admit it, even if it would just help get you a hearing? To me, no. I wouldn't be able to reconcile that and live with myself. I'm saying this is my fault. What about those people who say that's not enough, though? don't know if anything I ever do is going to be enough. And you're never going to say it. You're never going to say I told them to kill my husband. No.

So even in this new letter, it doesn't seem her position has changed at all. She just says she accepts her role in the crime. And one thing to note, all four of those men convicted in the actual murder murder including the one who admitted to pulling the trigger they've all completed their prison sentences that is very interesting that they've all been paroled but she still remains in prison she's still behind bars but the trigger man has been paroled now take a listen to paula ebbin wbz4 the attorney general's office is now reviewing the petition and needs to go to an executive counsel and then the governor.

Exactly. She's filed this petition before and has never gone to a hearing. What are his parents saying about it? Greg Smart's family, we should say, always maintains that she is exactly where she belongs and they are united in saying they do not believe she should ever be released from prison. We'll continue to follow the developments on Governor Sununu is the only person who can ultimately make the decision if she gets a hearing. So, Jax Miller, at the end of the day, what happens with Pam Smart bid for freedom? Well, this was her third time trying for a reduction hearing.

And for the third time, she was denied. And, you know, it's important to mention that all the other defendants, they all tried for a reduced sentence and they all got that. They've all been released. She's the only one left. She's the only one left behind bars for Greg Smart's murder. Kathleen Murphy, she's also the only one that refuses to admit she did it. She's not going to get out until she admits. Well, she admits now that she's sorry for her role as stated earlier, but the woman had an opportunity to admit her role when Greg's parents were alive and she still denied her role. She's still denying. She orchestrated it. She's saying that she's responsible because she had the affair with a teen boy.

She molested him. She is not saying, am I right, Jackson Miller? I planned this. This is why Greg's dead. Right. She's not owning it. And another thing that's worth mentioning is that this whole time she said, oh, I didn't make him do it. I didn't convince Billy to do it. He did it himself because I was going to break off the relationship.

That's been her excuse ever since. So this is, you know, a very pale, pale image of accepting responsibility. Pam Smart, behind bars, not getting paroled. Now, that's the latest. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye.

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