Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT BLOCK, FEDS WANT HELP

Episode Date: May 24, 2026

It's been twelve years since the discovery of the grisley murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond. The couple lived in a beautiful lakefront property, Lake Oconee, Georgia. The couple was expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors, but didn't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone, the Dermonds agaim don’t answer. Days later, arriving at the Dermond’s home, the neighbor is surprised to find the front door unlocked. The neighbor calls out their names to no reply.   The neighbor looks in the garage to see if the Dermond’s car is there. The neighbor discovers Russell Dermond laying on the garage floor, decapitated.  The neighbor calls 911, racing around the house looking for Shirley Dermond, but she is nowhere to be found.   Investigators begin a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermond, without success.  The search lasts for 10 days until two fishermen find her body in lake Oconee. Shirley Dermond has been dumped in the lake with cinder blocks tied to her legs. Her body is recovered about 5 miles from the Dermond home near the dam. Who killed Russell Joseph Dermond and Shirley Wilcox Dermond? The Federal Bureau of Investigation's Atlanta Field Office and the Putnam County Sheriff's Office renew a call for information. Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Sheriff Howard Sills - Putnam County Sheriff Dr. Kristen Mittelman- Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc., Othram.com, DNAsolves.com;; X @OthramTech  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” X: @JoScottForensic Dr. John Delatorre –  Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok – @drjohndelatorre Cody Alcorn – Reporter, 11Alive WXIA (Atlanta, GA); Facebook.com/CodyAlcornNews  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, neighbors living in fear. The husband found beheaded in his garage. His wife, deep in a lake, tied to a cement chunk. At this hour, the FBI renewing their calls for help in solving the murders of Russell and Shirley, Dermond. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

To Lake O'Conney, Georgia investigators begging for help to figure out who murdered Russell and Shirley Dermond. Neighbors find Russell's decapitated body in his Putnam County garage behind one of the couple's cars parked neatly inside. His head, nowhere to be found. His wife Shirley's body found tied to a cement chunk at the bottom of Lake O'coni. Seemingly at this hour, investigators no closer to solving the double murder. What happened? Russell and Shirley Dermond are happily married and living in a beautiful lakefront property, Lake O'coni, Georgia.

The couple is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors, but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone, the Dermans don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at the Dermon's home, The neighbor's surprised to find the front door unlocked, calling out their names. Nobody replies. With me and all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now about the Dermans disappearance. And I want to go first to a special guest joining us from Putnam County, the elected sheriff, Sheriff Howard Seals. Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us.

Isn't it odd that the smallest detail can raise the red alarm, right? the flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the door was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then, the neighbor knew something was terribly wrong. Well, I suspect so, but a lot of people here in this community still don't lock the doors, Nancy. Yeah, you know what? I'm very familiar with Putnam County. I was a camp counselor there at a National Forest, the 4-H Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful. But it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.

And this home was on the beautiful Lake O'Connor. Those are beautiful homes right there on the lake, right? Why, this was part of Reynolds in Lake O'Connor. So a very exclusive neighborhood of very expensive homes. Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Death Investigator, and host of a hit series Bodybacks of Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I have been to the scene and have very, very extensively walked the area. Not only is the dense forest an

issue, but the fact that this is such a high-end property, a gated community, where crime is very, very low. That's the first oddity in this case. You know, the sheriff had mentioned this being Reynolds, Reynolds plantation, for those of us from anywhere around the south, approximately in this area, we're very familiar with this location. You're talking about very high-end living. And you have an expectation of safety in these particular parts where, you know, something this horrible and this is at the top of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases go, that we've been covering low these many years, you don't expect something this horrific to have occurred in this rather, I don't know how to say it other than just kind of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful Lake O'Connie. and you begin to think about points of access. How in the world would somebody be brave enough to go into this location

and how did they access this home in this gated community? And it smacks a level of familiarity with the area. To me, it always has at least. I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott. Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to hone in on it before I miss a point. You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know, how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard?

Yes. And don't ask me what a jaron is because I still have to figure that out. But you just gave me so much information. And everybody on the panel, do I have to remind you? We're not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if you have a thought. Because although the sheriff has been work in this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.

Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity, as you said. Okay, if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to fly over to Oregon and I want you to find Oregon forest tree neighborhood and go to this certain house. I would not have any idea what they were talking about, right? Where in Oregon? And you know how wooded Oregon is. So where is this neighborhood? It's gated. How am I going to get in unless I climb over a fence?

do I have access to get in? And then you go back through all these windy roads. How are you going to find the place? How are you going to find the victims? How are you going to dispose of the wife with nobody seeing or hearing a thing? And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott, as you know. So when you refer to, quote, high-end living, what exactly do you mean by that? Let me just say this.

We've got a lake that spans five counties. and the opportunity to get there by water is infantestable. Likewise, when you talk about where do you go, if you're looking for Russell Derman, you can go on the website of the Putton of County Tax Assessor's website and find out exactly with one click. And you're right. You're totally right about all of what you just said, Sheriff,

but that takes me to someone with a boat. Okay, that means money, somebody with the boat on Lake O'coni, which narrows my suspect pool, somebody that would take a boat to their home, dock it, commit the murders, and then take the wife's body tied to a cement rock chunk out into the water. Who would approach this by boat? And as far as the tax assessment, you're right again, Sheriff Seals, but that tells me a lot about the perp. Somebody that's familiar with a computer, somebody would think, hey, if I go to the tax assessor's website, I can find this guy that's very targeted. So, Scott, when you refer to high-end living, what's that?

Well, you think you have access to all of these amenities around there, not just a lake, but very high-end golfing, if anyone's ever heard of Reynolds Plantation. This is not something, you know, something, just somebody off the street can walk in and afford to do. And that tells you a lot about the Dermans, I think, relative to the life that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure location where they could live out their golden years in this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had access to a boat that could do this sort of thing, we have to think about, well, how familiar are they with local boat?

ramps where you can launch a boat to get into this location. And you begin to think about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your way through this environment and the placement of the remains is certainly key here as well. So bottom line, let me understand, is Dave Mack joining me, crimeonline.com, investigative reporter, the cheapest house you can get. And when you hear Joe Scott Morgan referring to high end living, his words, not mine, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around that because we thought we were living high-end when we finally got a washer and a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer.

That was the big time for us. And we would all just go look at it. We were not allowed to touch it, of course, until we learned how she used it. But that said, did you know, Dave Matt, that the cheapest place, the cheapest house you can get at this Reynolds plantation on this. lake is in the over $500,000 approaching $600,000. That's the cheapest. It's an amazing, beautiful play. Yeah. And you know, Dave Mack, as you and I have discussed many, many times off camera, I don't care if the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got a PhD or they dropped out in third grade, don't care. My point is the level of crime in this gated

community with multi-million dollar homes on the lakefront is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less beheaded in this area. That's where I'm headed, Dave Mack. Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no, nobody's getting beheaded. Nobody's getting kidnapped. Nobody's getting murdered in this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay. The limit of the level of crime here is very, very low. But again, remember here, we have two people dead in the most heinous way you can imagine. And yet there wasn't, it wasn't like there was a robbery going on and they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There was no robbery. There was nothing taken. And by the way, doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house.

that they were killed inside the house. Who would behead the dad and tie this grandma to a cement chunk and throw her to the bottom of the lake? Who? This is not your ordinary bar brawl, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. So we're looking at an entirely different suspect pool. Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has a certain level. planning. You know, this is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one person says

something. It makes somebody angry and they just fly off the handle and you've got an assault that leads to a homicide. It's nothing like that. This takes preparation. It takes time. And again, I come back to this benchmark throughout this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know, access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could you be aware of timelines? How could you be aware of where to deposit a body and to do it in a stealth, stealthy manner. Guys, I want to go back to the same. What can we learn?

Listen. The same neighbor decides to look in the garage to see if the Dermann's car is there. It's there in the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Dermond laying on the garage floor decapitated. So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong to Dr. John Deletori, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic. psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs.com. Dr. Delo Tore, thank you for being with us.

If there's no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would go to the effort of not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them, but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a cement chunk and throwing her in the water. Why? I think this is someone who feels offended. Somehow the Dermans offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know what they did or they might not even know who this perpetrator actually was. But this person felt offended by what was going on. And I think he was offended. I say he, because more than likely he is the offender is a he. But I think he was offended by Mr. Derman. I think a lot of it is probably targeted because of, whatever it was that, that he was doing. I think this is, I think he wanted Mr. Derman to watch what the offender was going to do to Mrs. Derman. I think that there's a lot more sort of internal struggle, strife.

There's a lot of anger that is associated with this, that I'm not even sure this family even knew existed or even knew that this person existed before it all happened. Okay. To Sheriff Howard Seals joining us, the elected sheriff there in Putnam County, Sheriff Seals, we hear Dr. Deloory, and I'm not saying that he's wrong, but let's analyze it. Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion. Someone angry with Mr. Dermond? Angry about what?

Angry about what he was doing? What was he doing? Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his assessment of that because the assault of Mrs. Dermott was quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull with something like a hammer. I don't know if it was a hammer. but something like that, and that's particularly violent. And there's some evidence that we have that I don't want to go into great detail that Mr.

Derman was present when that occurred. We do not believe she was killed at the house, and we believe he was shot only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt. So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed toward them. We've never thought otherwise. And it's, but through, you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of technology, bank records. I mean, you just can't imagine, but we just simply have not been able to find that individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.

Russell Derman's body is found lying between the two cars in the garage. He's wearing a short-sleeved shirt and a short-sleeved shirt. a pair of boxers and he's found lying on top of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side. Russell Dermann's bare feeder stained with blood and there's a faint red trail smeared from the door all the way to his body. Towels have been placed around him presumably to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His hands are bruised and bloody with a severe gash on the left index finger. Strands of Shirley Dermann's hair are tangled within Russell Dermann's fingers suggesting a struggle between Dermans and their attacker. Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now.

Do you hear all that? That's a lot of forensic evidence to wade through. It certainly is. And you begin to think about the dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on Mrs. Dermond, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint when you talk about what type of weapon this individual showed up with or perhaps access from the home in order to commit such an attack like this. It's very up close, personal, very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have this contact trace evidence that goes over to Mr. Derman. It gives you an idea of the intimacy, the proximity of these two individuals as the attack is going on.

And, you know, for me, I'm thinking what would be the end of game here relative to one of these individuals who have been married for years and years and years, Nancy, for the perp to have. to have terrorized them in front of one another. And so that, again, goes to the dynamic of what the individual that they're looking for, the perp has against these individuals, because the level of violence we're talking about. What do you make of the fact that Russell had his wife's hair intertwined in his fingers? I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined. Is this something that had occurred as a result of hair being pulled from her head by him? You have to consider that.

And then you also have to think about, well, if there's like a copious amount of blood, sometimes, you know, we sluff hair. And many times if you have this tackiness on the surface of the hand and you're in proximity to loose hair, that can transfer onto the hand. So I'd have to know about the placement of the hair. I'd like to know what his fingernails look like. If they, and I'm sure that they probably did at the state medical examiner's office, did nail trimmings and scrapings on both of these. Well, probably not Mrs. Derman. That wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly Mr. Derman, because he was found in a dry environment. I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child, Connor, looking at these two in their youth,

so in love. Remember Joe Scott that Lacey's hair wasn't just sitting on Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair of long-nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now, how did that happen? Same thing here. We've got to find out how was her hair on his hand? was it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his wedding band? Was it stuck in blood that had dried? Did it come from her head? In other words, was the root still attached, the nucleus still attached to the hair?

Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the floor and he got a hair on his hands? We don't know the answer to that. And that's very important. Would you agree? Yes, I would. And the dynamic that you're thinking about relative to bodies. after when you have a multiple homicide, for instance, what's the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And let's just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where you have two bodies that are

essentially contacting one another, at least for a period of time, any number of things can transfer from one body to the other. And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this and this ongoing investigation. He has to. To think about, you know, those points of contact along the way, both inside the house, in the garage, and this mysterious vessel that we might be talking about as well as here, because, you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've got a floating crime scene as well. You really do. Sheriff Howard stills with us, the elected sheriff in Putnam County.

What about the hair? I've heard the description that it was intertwined in his fingers. Is that correct? We believe, and I believe what happened is Mr. Durr's. Herman reached out to block the blow against his wife's head when they hit her. And that caused the laceration and also it was a compound fracture in the finger. And that's where the hair was. So I think that he was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife.

And that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear that's what it is to be. Hey Ontario, come on down to BedMGM casino and check out our newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show. Only at BetMGM. Access to the Price is right fortune pick is only available at BetMGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge.

The FGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The feds rarely are stumped, but tonight they are begging for help in solving the double murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond. What happened there on the idyllic shores of Lake O'Conney? Kristen Middleman, the chief development officer at Orthram Labs. You can find her at dna solves.com, a renowned scientist. And when I say she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist, an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Dr. Middleman, thank you for being with us.

This has got to be a scientist like you, a dream, a conno copia of DNA. evidence. Actually, it's a nightmare of DNA evidence because there are so much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here. And that's part of what makes this crime scene one where you have to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test to try to figure out who might have committed this crime. And if it was only one person that committed this crime or multiple. Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermond without success.

The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermond, was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body. Early on, investigators believe Russell was killed elsewhere and his body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to be placed in. placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to be as much blood in the towels as would be expected had he been decapitated while still alive where his body is found. Which to you, Sheriff Howard Seals, I like to Sheriff Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there, where were they killed?

And what was the purpose of bringing them back to their own home? Well, that's the million dollar question that if I probably, knew the answer that'd be somebody in the back back here today but we don't believe obviously that she was killed there and while earth they would have brought his body back I do not know he was certainly deceased at the time of the decapitation so this was more of a preventive for decop flu and things like that leaking out from under the garage door I think than that that actual blood Joe Scott, Morgan, joining us, explain how a medical examiner can determine if Russell was

decapitated prior to his death, or if that was the cause of death, or decapitated postmortem. With a postmortem decapitation or any severance of any appendage of the body, if it's in the postmortem state, you're not going to have what we refer to as these little focal, which means very specific areas of hemorrhage into the soft tissue. And what that means is that as the body is being traumatized in life, the blood will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where the trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of a body and we see, for instance, something as horrific as this, we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say, what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of circumferentially around the area where this has taken place.

You're going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time that you're looking at a post-mortem or after-death injury. And the sheriff seems very convinced. He stated as a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he was killed. The theory is that there were at least two perpetrators. Why? Listen. Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sill says the evidence points to at least two people being involved in the murders of Russell and Shirley Dermond. The sheriff says he believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet unknown to investigators and the double homicide appears to have been personal, not something that happened during the commission of another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to have been stolen. Sheriff, why are you convinced there were at least two perpetrators that murdered these two? Well, Mrs. Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two bodies here that were moved. She was disposed up by boat five miles down the lake, and I just find it almost impossible that one person could have picked up bodies and things like that and moved them around from one location to another, much less six miles down the lake, then tied the bag with the box in it and all that.

I just found that highly unlikely. It wouldn't, it's at least two, it wouldn't surprise me quite candid that there were more. Dr. Kristen Middleman, joining us, Chief Development Officer at Offeram Labs, who specialize in degraded or even old DNA, really working miracles. Dr. Middellman, thank you for being with us. If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on how and where they should look at. look for DNA at this scene, what would you tell them? I would definitely look at everything that was just like Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the body that may not have been overcome by all the blood

and all of the other fluids that were at the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated that was found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA that belongs to the victim that may overpower. or any touch DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or the robe or anything that was around that victim to stop bleeding. And so those are things, I would say, try to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like skin cells under fingernails, or something the perpetrator may have touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now, the other thing is, you said earlier that maybe her fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom of the lake. I still think that DNA could be pulled from something like that.

We have identified people that have been chopped to bits and in suitcases at the bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks. So we have figured out ways to overcome water and degradation that comes, contamination that comes with being in water for a very long time. So I would still look at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA in her body that could be found that would be more perpetrator. That would be my suggestion. There is no evidence to suggest either of the Dermans were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence of the exact time and date of their death.

Sheriff Sills said Shirley Dermond was working on a crossword puzzle out of USA Today that's left on the kitchen table. The Dermann's bed was unmade and Russell Dermann was found laying on top of his bathrobe, wearing his boxers and a t-shirt. When Shirley Derman's body is found in Lake O'Conney, she is completely dressed. To Sheriff Howard Seals joining us from Putnam County. Sheriff, that tells you about what time of the day do you think these two were murdered? Well, again, we don't really know because of talking. to the Durbin's children, we learned that when Mr. Derman would get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything to do, that he would lounge around for several hours sometimes

with his robe and bed clothes on. However, her custom was when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do know that a man was seen or somebody was seen in their yard on the Saturday, before the Kentucky Derby. So we actually think because of all of that together, that this probably happened initially sometime Saturday during the daytime. Well, I'm curious, just looking at people's behavior, he still had on his boxers in a T-shirt. She was doing the crossword puzzle.

Joining me is Dr. John Deloory, renowned psychologist. and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology. Dr. Delo Tori, number one, I need to know the date of the USA Today crossword puzzle. And it is just striking me that this was in the morning, which makes this even more of an aberration, an oddity. Yeah, because they're unprepared, right? There's nothing to suggest that anything is going on in their daily lives that made them afraid of whatever it is that's going on. Even if there was an individual in their, It certainly doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there. Right.

So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right, the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen. So they weren't prepared. This is not so much a blitz attack because there's nothing to suggest in the home that, you know, all of a sudden there was some kind of fight. But there is something in which they were unprepared and they just kind of, it was just unexpected and instead of using force, the individual probably used some kind of coercive technique,

whether it was a gun or a weapon or something like that, but there was more coercion, more verbal threats more than there was physical threats. Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor Forensics, is not all about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it, Joe Scott, number one, the date of the USA Today paper, was at her custom to do the crossword in the mornings, Were coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table? Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker? Was there anything in the crock pot? Were there dishes out from lunch?

Or did it look more like dinner? We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky Derby party. So that gives us the clue is to the end. They were dead by that time. What else would you look for, Joe Scott? Well, Sheriff Seals has done the right thing by going to speak with the family. It's something we do in investigations to just try to get a, take the temperature of what their daily routine looks like. And you have to try to understand that.

And are there any moments in time that deviate from those normal behaviors moving forward? I think that also one of the things, and if we believe that there may have been more than one individual involved in this. I think that it would be very important to try to examine any kind of available digital evidence that might be available from back during that time period as far as phone records, anything that came off of any of the towers back then. I don't know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly something that's intriguing. If you've got one person in the yard, perhaps, are they communicating with someone else

that could facilitate bringing a boat around? Because that's the rub, isn't it? you know, how do you get a boat into a location where you're running the risk in broad daylight of people being seen at their dock or their mooring location there? How does this work? So there has to be communication involved in this. I think that's certainly something to look at. And of course, you know, the age old question, Dr. John Delatory, you really think two or more people could keep this quiet? No way. They had to tell a girlfriend, a wife, a co-conspirator, there was a reason for this murder.

Somebody has to know why. And that leads you to who? Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by whatever Russell Derman was doing. Whatever he, whatever it was that he was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex-employee. This could have been, this could have been anybody. When you say involved in, wait a minute, that makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he wouldn't give up the PIN number to his checking account or his savings account?

I mean, did that cause someone to go into a fury? But would they go through the effort of driving up in a boat and decapitating him over a pin number? No, no, absolutely not. This is why I'm saying that this is about something that was going on within the individual that was specifically targeting Russell Dermott. Or else none of this other stuff would need to have happened. I mean, these two individuals are killed in very disparate ways and they're dumped in very disparate ways. But I think it's purposeful. This was planned from the beginning that this was how things were going to play out.

And everything is probably geared towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target of whatever this thing was, given the nature of how his wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily wasn't. In the last days, a break in the case. Listen. The case of the double homicide of a beloved couple in a gated community on Lake O'Coni goes cold for nearly 10 years until Sheriff Howard Sills announces. announces a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell Derman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination. The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to Russell or Shirley Derman. Putman County Sheriff Howard Sills says he believes the DNA is from the person who committed the murder or at least somebody who was a party to the crime.

Hey Ontario, come on down to BenMGMGM casino and check out our newest exclusive. The price is right fortune pick. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at bedmgm. Access to the Price is right fortune pick is only available at BedMGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Who murdered Shirley and Russell Dermy? The feds want to know, and they're begging for your help tonight to solve the unsolved murders. Why Shirley and Russell Derman? What did they ever do wrong? Why were they on the wrong end of a murder?

Based on the evidence Russell Dermond was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the garage where his body was found. The sheriff says the injuries Shirley Dermann sustained would have left physical evidence that was not found in the Dermann's home. evidence that the beheading of Russell Dermann occurred there in the home as well. Where were they killed? What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to that gated community home? Right on the waterfront of Lake Oconi. We are now hearing about new DNA. Straight out to the sheriff, Sheriff Howard Seals, where did you discover? Where was the new DNA? We initially took all of our physical evidence out to Othrim. Arthur and did locate and did identify DNA.

There was some further word that needed to be done, and they have referred me to Sorensen Labs out in Utah, and they have found DNA that they are still working on, trying to isolate that we at least know both Othrom and Sorensen found DNA, that does not belong to Shirley or Russell Derman, and Sarinson is still doing whatever they're doing there, trying to narrow that down and up where we can get it into Kodis. So I reached out to them.

Initially, the state lab said there was no DNA. I'm not being critical of them. I don't know the technology at the time, other than the dermans themselves. but after learning of the good work of Othrom and Sorenson and consulting with the FBI, that's where I decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that that's going to eventually turn up something here, hopefully, pretty soon. To Dr. Kristen Milliman joining us, Chief Development Officer at Othram.

Tell me about the discovery of the new, well, it's not really new DNA. It's newly discovered DNA. Where was it? And how did you find it? It was on the clothing, and I guess how we found it is the sheriff sent the evidence here to see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could be detected. That wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy for this type of technology, and that means that any DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to CODIS first and see if there is a hit in CODIS or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hidden codis, then we can proceed and build a profile.

If there is a hidden codis, obviously the case can be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't. If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers rather than 20 and upload that to genealogical databases consented for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic lab that can be. build these CODIS profiles quickly and get them uploaded. That is what's happening now. And if there is a hit, that case can be solved that way. If there is no hit, then we can take over the DNA sample

and build one of these genealogical profiles that will help us infer the identity of the person that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left DNA on their body at the crime scene during that time period. The clothes that they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay, question. Dr. Crystal Middleman joining us. Dr.

Middleman, when I say, how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically, what do you put it under a microscope? Do you treat it in some way? How do you see what other scientists could not sit? Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized, but maybe we took a section of that clothing that was different than sections that had been tested in the past.

How forensic testing works is you section different areas of a bed sheet clothing, anything that might have been found at the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all of those cuttings, and sometimes you're lucky and you actually find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of the victims. And that is what the sheriff is alluding to in this case. Dr. Middlman, it's amazing to me the work that you do at Orthram. You've actually found something that other scientists at the time couldn't see. The way their bodies were treated, Mrs. Derman found at the bottom of a lake, waded down with cement chunks. Was she alive when she was thrown in the lake? Russell Derman, not only murdered but decapitated.

His headless body left in the couple's garage where the car was still neatly parked. Tonight, the fed's begging for your help. Nancy Grace, crime story signing off. Good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.