Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hubby/dad shoots child molester in self defense and gets jail time in TWISTED JUSTICE.

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

Six years ago, David Carlson shoots and kills a fugitive rape suspect, claiming self defense. Carlson is charged with manslaughter. In the time since the shooting, Carlson has lost his job, his wife and children, and his home. His sentence was handled down recently by judge. Is David Carlson on his way to jail?Joining Nancy Grace today: Michael Mazzariello - Former host of "Street Court," former adjunct instructor at Marist College, & attorney for David Carlson  Ben Ostrer - Ostrer and Associates, attorney for David Carlson  John Cardillo - Host America Talks on Newsmax tv, former NYPD  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, & author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, Susan Edelman - Reporter for NY Post  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace premieres March 9th only on Fox Nation. A father, a dad, a union carpenter, never been in trouble, guns down a statutory rape suspect. This is a 35-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old girl. I'm talking about Norris Acosta Sanchez, and now because this guy who manages to capture a child rapist, a confessed child rapist, wanted by Homeland Security, ends up facing 20 years behind bars.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Oh, this is that one. What's going on? 115 Old Plank Road. You can see him, but he's probably dead. My neighbor just shot a fugitive. The fugitive was Norris Acosta Sanchez, wanted for sex with an underage girl. THE FUGITIVE WAS NORRIS ACOSTA SANCHEZ WANTED FOR SEX WITH AN UNDERAGE GIRL. THE OBJECT OF A FUTAW POLICE

MANHUNT IN THE WOODS NEAR CARLSON'S HOME THE DAY BEFORE. WITH THE BODY LYING ON HIS NEIGHBOR'S DRIVEWAY AND COPS ON THE WAY, CARLSON TOOK THE PHONE TO SPEAK WITH THE OPERATOR. SIR, WHY DID YOU SUIT HIM? HE WAS THREATENING ME.

THIS IS THE GUY YOU WERE CHASING YESTERDAY. HE CAME BACK TO MY HOUSE. HE CAME BACK TO YOUR HOUSE? AND HE'S A LITTLE PISSED SO I HAD MY GUN ALREADY OUT SO I THOUGHT I'D GO TO HIS HOUSE. HE WAS A LITTLE BIT PISSED. HE WAS A LITTLE BIT PISSED. HE WAS A LITTLE BIT PISSED. HE WAS A LITTLE BIT PISSED. HE WAS A LITTLE BIT PISSED. He was threatening me. This is the guy you were chasing yesterday. He came back to my house.

He came back to your house? And he's a little pissed, so I had my gun already out, so I pulled it out, I put it on him. I tried to get him up to the neighbors to call the cops, and in the meantime, he just... Mercy? Carlson knew the dead man, in fact, had befriended him when he found him hiding in a hunting lodge out in the woods, but became horrified to learn that Acosta was wanted for statutory rape. So the father and husband tried to turn Acosta in twice, but he kept eluding police and escaping. Did a man now called a vigilante gun down a rape fugitive and end up behind bars? What happened? Let's see what we can learn from that 911 call. The 911 call we got continued to roll after police arrived the day of the shooting.

When you go out of here, David, I want your hands up showing everybody. Yes, ma'am. Yes, I'm not going anywhere. Where's the gun? It's right here, sir. Who shot him? I did. Okay, do you know whereabouts you shot him? I shot him in the side first, in the arm, and he still kind of came after me. Dude, I'm trying to help you guys. The guy came after me. It happened. Dude, that killed somebody.

Do you understand? It happened. I'll be all right. I'm going to be too. No, it's not going to be okay. I'm never going to be the one to be. More of that 911 call along with CBS in New York reporter Lou Young. What is the truth? It's hard to discern. Is it self-defense? Is it revenge? Is it vigilante justice?

Should this guy have gone to jail? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, renowned lawyer, former host of Street Court, attorney for the so-called vigilante, David Carlson, Michael Mazzarello, joining me from New York, Ben Oster, Oster & Associates. You can find him at Oster, O-S-T-R-E-R dot com, attorney for David Carlson as well. John Cardillo, host of America Talks on Newsmax TV, former NYPD. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan.

Renowned psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall from Beverly Hills. You can find her at DrBethanymarshall.com, but right now to Susan Edelman, investigative reporter at my favorite magazine, my favorite newspaper, New York Post. Who is this guy, Susan Edelman? Is he a killer? Is he someone seeking revenge? Is this vigilante justice?

Is it self-defense? What happened? David Carlson was put into a very tough position because this accused rapist befriended him and just stuck by him and terrorized for having sex with a 14-year-old girl. And they went to the police, but the police leaned on them to help them catch this guy. And he gave them all the help he could, but the police bungled every attempt to arrest him. And then the angry rape suspect bangs on his door and he decides to make a citizen's arrest with his gun and that led to the uh to the to the shooting guys we are talking about a now you just heard susan edelman investigative reporter with the new york post say sex with a 14-year-old. Under the law, there's really no such thing because at 14, I mean,

at 14, you can't have consensual sex. In every jurisdiction in our country, that is statutory rape. In some jurisdictions, depending on how well the victim and how well the defendant is, if it's a 14-year-old girl and a 15-year-old boy, it's not going to be statutory rape in a lot of jurisdictions. But in most jurisdictions, quote, sex, unquote, with a 14-year-old is statutory rape. There's a reason, is there not, Ben Osterer, why a 14-year-old child cannot buy a car or buy a house or enter into a contract or buy cigarettes or liquor. There's a reason for that, Ben. Well, Nancy, the law in New York State is a 14-year-old cannot consent. And in fact, under the circumstances in which Mr. Acosta Sanchez took advantage of this child, it's considered a violent crime. And he was indicted, not just a criminal complaint,

but the grand jury in Rockland County actually indicted him on two separate counts of rape in the second degree, which is a violent crime under our law. I want you to hear one version of what happened. This is a guy that heads to jail. David Carlson, a husband, a father. The so-called murder victim, Norris Acosta Sanchez, 35-year-old suspect, is a vigilante justice. Should the husband, dad, go to jail for life? Take a listen to our friends at CBSN. Acosta was unarmed but reappeared after police left. Carlson held him at gunpoint and says he fired when Acosta turned on him. In court, the dead man's mother called the way it ended cruel, vile, and absurd.

Of Carlson, she wondered, did he want to be a hero? For his part, David Carlson said he was panicked when it happened. He told the judge, if I could go back in time, I'd go back to October 11, 2013, and do something different. THE JUDGE SAID HE WAS NOT READY TO TAKE THE CASE. HE SAID HE WAS PANICKED WHEN IT HAPPENED. HE TOLD THE JUDGE IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME, I WOULD GO BACK TO OCTOBER 11, 2013 AND DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I TOOK A LIFE AND I'M NOT HERE

TO MAKE EXCUSES. CARLSON COULD HAVE GOTTEN AS MUCH AS 25 YEARS FOR FIRST DEGREE MAN SLAUGHTER BUT THE JUDGE GAVE HIM FIVE, THE MANDATORY MINIMUM. STILL, IT WAS A SENTENCE NO ONE WAS SATISFIED WITH. SOME SMALL SOLACE, BUT I'm losing my brother for I don't know how long.

I believe in David. I believe he's a good man. Rosario Acosta left without comment. Are you satisfied? Not, she's not, not really. Carlson's attorneys filed an appeal and say they'll try to get him out on bail until it's heard. Five years to renowned psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining me from LA. Dr. Bethany, I mean, this morning when I dropped the twins off at school, I back-timed it. I'm like, okay, eight hours, eight and a half hours till I see you again. That's insane. I miss you. I can't even imagine five years. You know, Dr. Bethany, every time I fly out for business in LA and sometimes get to see you, I'm constantly looking at my phone, hoping one of the twins will FaceTime me. I can't stand even one night, five years. And that's a lifetime to me to be away from your family.

And Nancy, he had a wife. He had two children. I mean, this man had a full life. He was a carpenter. This is really a simple person who served his community. His wife made homemade bread. I read in one story. So this is a family. Dr. Bethany, Dr. Bethany, please, please. It's all I can do to take care of a cat, a dog, a husband, two children, my mother, 89 years old and two Guinea pigs. And now you want to throw in that this woman makes homemade bread. Did you have to? I mean, you remind me of that woman at the swimming pool that made her own organic sunscreen and I poo pooed her and now darn it, it caused, sunscreen causes cancer. So, you know, what's next, but can we get back off the homemade bread and onto being away from your family for

five years? You know, in my field, we talk about trauma all the time. You know, what causes trauma, what causes mental breakdowns and forced premature separation from loved ones is one of the major factors that causes trauma because it's something which we are unprepared for. When we love our family, we want to be with them. So he is separated from his family for five years. He can't drive his kids to school. He can't, you know, have intimacy with his wife. The whole structure of the family breaks down. And remember, he's already gone through a trauma because he's been participating with police while this crazy guy is hiding in the woods behind his house. And then he goes to jail and he doesn't have his family to support him and be there for him.

So that, I would say, is quite a traumatic experience. Nancy, well, actually, David was granted bail pending that appeal. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Arriving at court for sentencing, David Carlson seems an unlikely vigilante. The union carpenter stands convicted of manslaughter in the 2013 shotgun killing of fugitive Norris Acosta Sanchez near Carlson's remote Orange County home. Family and neighbors try to cope with the idea he'll be heading off to prison. He was definitely remorseful. He was just a stand-up guy. THE VICTIM'S MOTHER, WHO FLEW IN FROM SPAIN, DELIVERED AN IMPACT STATEMENT. ROSARIO SANCHEZ SAID HER LIFE

HAD BECOME A PERMANENT INTERNAL CRY. HER SON WANTED FOR STATUTORY RAPE. ALLUDED POLICE TWICE IN THE WOODS NEAR CARLSON'S HOME. IT WAS A MANHUNT THAT LEFT CARLSON'S HOME.

THE VICTIM'S MOTHER, WHO FLEW IN FROM SPAIN, DELIVERED AN IMPACT STATEMENT. ROSARIO SANCHEZ SAID HER LIFE HAD BECOME A PERMANENT INTERNAL CRY. HER SON WANTED FOR STATUTORY RAPE.

ALLUDED POLICE TWICE IN THE WOODS NEAR CARLSON'S HOME. IT WAS A MANHUNT THAT LEFT CARLSON'S HOME. THE VICTIM'S MOTHER, WHO FLEW IN FROM SPAIN, DELIVERED AN IMPACT STATEMENT. ROSARIO SANCHEZ SAID HER LIFE HAD BECOME A PERMANENT INTERNAL CRY. life had become a permanent internal cry. Her son wanted for statutory rape, eluded police twice in the woods near Carlson's home. It was a manhunt that left Carlson and his neighbors rattled. We were really frightened staying there that night because this guy's on the loose. The

police lost him. You're hearing our friends at CBSN New York. That was Lou Young. The whole thing just stinks to me. And now, saving the best for last, Michael Mazzarello joining me, former host of Street Court, attorney also along with Ben Osterford, David Carlson, and I'll go ahead and violate the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. My longtime friend and colleague, Michael Mazzarello. Okay, Michael. First of all, there's no such thing as statutory rape in New York State. It's a deviolent felony. 35-year-old had sex with a 14-year-old multiple times. He was wanted by Homeland Security for entering the United States with multiple passports. Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Cut his mic. Cut his mic. Okay. You're talking so quickly, we can't take it all in. When we refer to statutory rape, that is so-called sex with a minor, regardless of what New York may call it.

But what I want to hear is a coherent rendition of the facts as you know them, Michael. Go ahead. The prosecutor kept saying that. That's why the case as you know them, Michael. Go ahead. The prosecutor kept saying that. That's why the case was reversed and remanded. There's no such thing. It's a colloquialism. It's a deviant felony and it belies the whole point. This case is a case of an example where a man was out on bail for six years, lived a law-abiding life, was able to feed his three beautiful children, support his family, and the horror of the police, what they did to this man, should be an example for every law school throughout the United States. And make no mistake about it, Nancy, he was wanted, he was indicted and wanted by Ramapo for the violent felony rape charge and tried to elude police.

In fact, there's a tape recorded conversations between the deceased and the grandmother set up by the police where he said, what's the problem with having sex with a 14-year-old? You know, in my country, it's normal. I'm not abiding by the laws of the United States. I'm never going to jail. I'm not going to jail. I'm never going to jail. You know what they do with people like me in jail. He befriends a great couple, Dave Carlson and his wife. They feed him. They give him work. He lied to him about his name and then boom, told him that I'm wanted for a rape. What did the police do? They set this man up. Get in the car, put him in the car. We'll pull you over.

They don't show up. What happened? Oh, there was a shift change. Sorry. Next day, do it again. They pull the suspect over and I hope the police officer is listening to this. No, you have any identification? No. Where do you live? Right down the road. They put him in the back of the cop car, uncuffed. They take him to a location where he said he lived, where he didn't. They open the car. He shoves and pushes a police officer out of the way, runs and escapes down the hill. No pursuit.

Why didn't you pursue him? We had no probable cause. Once they found out who he was, they set up a SWAT team unit of, I don't know, Ben, how many guys were there? 25, 30 helicopters, boats. They searched everywhere for this guy. And then what'd they do? They told my client, here's our cell phone number. Call us if you see the guy.

He wakes up the next morning. The guy's there looking disheveled and mad. David Carlson didn't kill him on the spot. He pointed the shotgun at him and walked him 800 feet. He went to the first house. Nobody home. Let go a shot. No one listened.

Went to the second house. Let go let go a shot no one listened went to the second house let go another shot nobody was listening he had four in the barrel two left nancy he goes a total of 800 feet trying to turn this man in and gets on the call 9-1-1 when norris acara sanchez went for it and then he just shot him it's a debacle of the police department unparalleled in my 32 years this 46 year old dad killed a wanted child rapist and then faced 20 years behind bars i'm talking about david carlson 46 years old who shoots down Norris Acosta Sanchez, 35. Acosta Sanchez had confessed to sleeping with a 14-year-old girl. Carlson twice tried to have Acosta Sanchez arrested after he confessed. The two attempts and a third by a SWAT team, all unsuccessful.

Carlson caught Acosta Sanchez himself and was taking him to the police, and while doing so, he lunged at Carlson, who shot him in self-defense. He goes on trial for shooting a wanted child rapist who wandered onto his property and then admitted to repeated sex acts with a 14-year-old girl. Not only that, he's wanted by Homeland Security. Now, what I don't get, day in, day out, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert, day in, day out. You're a death investigator. You have to go to court as much as I did as a prosecutor. I see perps and I read police reports and I see how so many defendants get away. We're always asked, hey, you ever

convicted an innocent person? I'm like, H-E-L-L, no, I can't get all the guilty people. There's not enough police and detectives and agents to get the guilty people. No. And here, Joe Scott, have you ever seen a guy trying to effect an arrest of a child rapist, pulls a gun, and now he's going to jail for 20 years? I don't get it. It's completely bass-ackwards. Yeah, it really is, Nancy. And here's the reality this guy's faced

with. He's having to, you know, to literally step in the gap and do the job that the original prosecutors should have done with this person to dispose of this fellow and dispose of this case in an appropriate manner, and now, as a result of, you know, their lack of attention to detail, their carelessness, they've destroyed this poor man's life. I got to tell you, Nancy, when I began to read the brief on this case, my mind was blown. I had not heard of this case. And it's amazing. We see so much stuff that comes through the news nowadays. It's just idle chatter. This particular case rocked me to my core because, you know, there but for the grace of God go I or anybody else

that's put into this position and now his life is in shambles. A shambles. Hey, Michael Mazzarello, tell me, why was the guy, now he had a warrant for him for, as I say, statutory rape, sex with a 14-year-old child. You call it, I think you said a Class D violent felony. You say tomato, I say tomato. Ben Oster, Oster & Associates, attorney for David Carlson, this guy not only wanted for forcing himself on a 14-year-old girl in a nearby town, also wanted by Homeland Security for what? Well, he had entered the country legally, but he had overstayed his visa, had applied for status based upon his heritage. He had family members that had lived in Cuba, lived in Europe, and he was denied status here, and he overstayed. So he was actually in the country illegally at the time.

That, of course, has nothing to do with the actual underlying criminal conduct. But I think at the heart of this case is the fact that David Carlson had him at the end of a gun. There's one gun in two people, and if Mr. Sanchez is taking action by lunging towards Carlson, I don't think it leaves Carlson with much of a choice. You either use the gun or be prepared to lose the gun. And in this particular case, tragically, it resulted in the loss of life. But I think Carlson's conduct, at least under the law in New York, and as Judge Freehill found at the retrial, found David's conduct to be justified. And if it's justified, that's our our word in New York state for self-defense. Then that base is what the judge

based the acquittal upon. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The hunt for 35-year-old Morris Acosta Sanchez began yesterday when a squad of cops from Orange County tried to serve a search warrant on the Deer Park cabin where the outlaw had been hiding. Acosta Sanchez was wanted on two felony counts of second-degree rape, but he wasn't going easily. From the woods, the accused rapist took off. A pursuit happened last night where the guy ran off and actually swam across the Rio Reservoir into the next town. Somehow, with law

enforcement chasing, Acosta Sanchez was able to make it all the way across the reservoir into Lumberland-Sullivan County. The rape suspect had apparently eluded police. After the nighttime escape, investigators say the wanted suspect did something inexplicable. He returned to the woods from which he had just fled. It was probably a good place for this guy to hide out, or maybe he thought that. This time, though, Acosta Sanchez was greeted not by police, but by a neighbor in the rural community. Details are unclear as to how the confrontation unfolded,

but investigators say that neighbor killed the rape suspect shooting him. How in the hay did a 46-year-old husband and father of three end up facing 20 years behind bars, accused of a violent vigilante justice killing. This guy, David Carlson, shoots an alleged child rapist, goes on trial for murder. Now, think about it. When you don't know a horse, look at his track record with me. Susan Edelman, reporter, New York Post. Susan, the cops had tried unsuccessfully several times to get this guy, Norris Acosta Sanchez. Now, what do you, if he would do that with the cops, a group of cops chasing him,

what do you think he would do with David Carlson, who was trying to turn him in? There was no question that he was desperate and he did not want to go to jail. And that's what was in David Carlson's mind, that this guy was desperate and would do anything to escape. I wanted to also note that the reason he didn't get into the United States or he wasn't given a visa was because he had some kind of crime of moral turpitude on his record, which I was never able to find out what that was. You know, I also know that on several occasions, police were actually recruiting Carlson. It's not like he sat around and hatched this all up all by himself. You know, I'm very curious to Michael Mazzarello, former host, street court attorney for David Carlson, along with Ben Osterer. Michael, at that moment when it was announced in court, he's guilty. He's going to jail.

That must have been like a kick in the stomach, a kick in the teeth for David Carlson. It was devastating to all of us. It was, as Ben always says, there was no winners, but it was devastating. We did the trial pro bono. Ben Ostra is one of the best criminal defense attorneys in the Northeast Corridor. He paid for all the transcripts, you know, dailies for the trial. It was devastating. It was devastating to his three children, all his family members. I don't know what else to say, Nancy. It was, it's very difficult to pick a jury. And, you know, I always say, I don't argue with the jury. They do what they think is right.

I do. I argue with the jury all the time. I mean, they're just regular people like us, and sometimes they can be wrong. Bam. There. I said it. Ben Oster, what was that moment like in court? You guys go to the mat, pro bono, which means for free, to represent this guy, David Carlson,

husband, father, union carpenter. He is the one that gets the bad guy, the child rapist. And now he is facing 20 years behind bars. When you hear guilty in the courtroom, what was that moment like? Well, actually, Nancy, the jury first announced the not guilty verdict on murder in the courtroom. What was that moment like? Well, actually, Nancy, the jury first announced the not guilty verdict on murder in the second degree. So our, you know, we were buoyed by that. And moments later, they convicted him after seven days of deliberations of manslaughter in the first degree. We were obviously devastated, but we had always hoped that we would vindicate David, and thankfully, he was out on bail pending appeal, and the second department

of the appellate division reversed that conviction and gave us an opportunity at a retrial. But it was a devastating moment to hear that jury find our client and find David guilty. We believed he had been enlisted by police. In one quarter, he had great support from his neighbors. They posted his bail. David was out on $100,000 bail. That was increased to $500,000 on appeal. And in each instance, it was his neighbors and friends who posted the collateral and paid the bonding company. David didn't have those resources. You know, I want to talk about the actual wound. A forensic pathologist describing the fatal gunshot wounds at trial. I know that there were two wounds, one entering his left arm about two inches below the shoulder,

exiting from the back. That would indicate self-defense to me. It's not like he got shot in the back. The entry is left arm two inches below the shoulder. It exits from the back of the arm. That's consistent with self-defense. The fatal wound, which entered the left side of his head through the ear. Let me go to death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott Morgan, please analyze the forensic findings regarding COD cause of death.

As you were mentioning, Nancy, there is a shot that passes through his arm. And if we begin to piece this together relative to the description that David had given at the time, he essentially tried to render this guy to a point where he couldn't approach him anymore. Remember, he's talking about that this guy is advancing on him. He senses danger on the part of the fugitive, and he fires at him just to kind of knock him down. And can you imagine being in these circumstances? You're faced with this. It's not like this guy has been trained in escalation of force or anything like the police are. It's a different standard for the general public. He's holding a shotgun on this guy, and the guy utters, literally utters an expletive at him,

rises to his feet, and then begins to advance on him again. Adrenaline's pumping. He fires again and literally, literally drops this guy right where he stands. The interesting part, though, and I think that this is probably what the jury was looking at, they're probably trying to understand, you know, how exactly is this guy killed if he's shot in the left side of the head? Was this, in their mind at least maybe an execution you've already shot him once why didn't you let it go at that and i think that that's probably what turned the tide against him in this case i want to go to john cardillo host of america talks on newsmax tv and former nypd john cardillo you know how much I hate attacking police. But when it's the truth, it's the truth.

There's no way around it. Why would police recruit a civilian? David Carlson, why? You know, Nancy, excuse me. I was speaking to a bunch of former police officers and active police officers, Nancy, and they were all shaking their heads. Look, when we look at this as law enforcement people, this man's a hero. David Carlson is an absolute hero. Now, is it uncommon for small agencies without the manpower of the NYPD, the LAPD, Chicago to sometimes enlist people to assist them? No, it's not. But to me and every other cop I spoke to about this, that strengthened David Carlson's case even further. When he held that guy at gunpoint, this rapist, and I agree with the other guest, there is no statutory rape in New York. This guy

is a violent, predatory child rapist. When he was holding him at gunpoint, he wasn't just some random homeowner. He was now an agent of the government. He was doing this because the police asked him to help. He did all he could. This guy did all he could to summon help, to get a neighbor, somebody to call the police in a rural area where police response times were probably 20, 30 minutes. And when this violent felon, violent rapist, the guy who came into the country illegally and laughed at our laws and went on to rape children and mocked law enforcement, turned on him, to me, to many in law enforcement, I don't care if he shot the guy once or he emptied that magazine of shotgun shells on him. The bad guy deserved it. It doesn't matter. The minute you make the determination to use deadly force,

that means you feel your life and the lives of other innocents are in danger and you shoot until you are sure that threat is stopped. This guy should be given a medal, an acquittal, and an apology from New York State. This case to me is an absolute travesty of justice. Guys, Nancy Grace here. We are heading straight into breaking crime and justice news. But first, how can you keep yourself and your children safe? I have investigated and prosecuted literally thousands of felony cases. I have covered literally thousands of cases of missing people, adults, and children, unsolved homicides, violent crimes. After all the cases, after speaking to all the victims, all the police, all the witnesses over years, what can we do about it? I don't want to just sit back and report on it. I want to take action.

And I know you must feel the same way. You don't want to just hear about crime. You want to do something about it and do something to stop it. And here is the news. Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. This book is for everyone who wants to stay safe or who wants to keep your loved one safe. CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Carlson even tried several times to help police capture Acosta Sanchez just days before the shooting last October. But when things went south, he says Acosta Sanchez showed up to his home angry. Carlson then grabbed his gun and began escorting the fugitive to a neighbor's house to call police. A nearby surveillance camera captured the two walking, but what happens next is out of frame. According to Carlson, Acosta Sanchez lunged repeatedly, forcing him to fire in self-defense. Dave essentially was an agent for the police in trying to assist them.

Carlson's claim of self-defense was never relayed to a grand jury. Thursday, the district attorney's office now has the option to appeal the case. In the meantime, Carlson has a great deal of support and remains hopeful. I am a little worried, but I do have faith in our judicial system. You're hearing our friends at ABC Eyewitness 7 News. That was reporter A.J. Ross. Well, he had misplaced faith because this guy who manages to capture a child rapist, a confessed child rapist, wanted by Homeland Security, ends up facing 20 years behind bars. Straight out to Susan Edelman, reporter with the New York Post.

Susan, isn't it true that once he eluded cops by basically swimming across a body of water, he comes back to David Carlson's house, starts banging on the door, angry, furious. And that's when the whole thing played out, Susan Edelman. His wife and children were staying with a neighbor because they were terrified. And that's when the whole thing He said, this ends today. He was fed up with the police to arrest this guy after another. And he had gotten away. So running down creeks, swimming over reservoirs. And now he was back banging on the door and he decided, hey, I'm going to do something about this now. And he did not want to kill him, he said. He said immediately afterwards, I did not want to kill him. I did not want to shoot him.

But he lunged at me. You know, Susan Edelman joining me from the New York Post, you just told me a fact I didn't know, that the community was so afraid of this guy that Carlson had sent away his wife and children. And now I was just reading the article about it in the New York Post that you helped write, Susan Edelman. He loses everything after this court battle.

He's lost his wife. He's lost his home. He's lost everything, Susan. What happened? Well, it's more than just breaking up with his family. His mind, he's lost his peace of mind. He's going to have to live for the rest of his life knowing that he took a life that he did not want to take, that he killed someone, and he's going to be torn over whether he should have. He told police afterwards, maybe I should have stopped after the first.

OK, with this and tormented and haunted by this for the rest of his life. And so and he is undergoing therapy for post-traumatic stress syndrome. So it's he's going to have to take a long time to heal from this. Take a listen. Our friends at ABC Eyewitness 7 News, AJ Ross. He's accused of taking the law into his own hands against an alleged rapist, but David Carlson says he fired his gun in self-defense, an important detail that was somehow left out of grand jury testimony and one of many details he shared with me here tonight.

A day after an Orange County judge dismissed his murder case, David Carlson and his attorney opened up about new details never before heard by grand jury jurors inside this food pantry where he regularly volunteers. I didn't do this out of being a vigilante or trying to take the law into my own hands. It was just an unfortunate event that ended in a tragedy. Carlson was accused of shooting and killing Norris Acosta Sanchez, an alleged rapist on the run, hiding out next door to his family.

All the families in this area were really very afraid that there was a fugitive at large. Wait a minute, Michael Mazzarello, former host street court attorney for David Carlson, so he's a dad,'s a husband he's a union carpenter you know my dad was in the union with the railroad he volunteers at a food pantry and he was charged with murder michael how did he end up losing his home and his family nancy he had a beautiful house and actually he was a farmer. He had horses, chickens, goats, and the stress of the trial, six years of making, six years versus court appearances. He tried to maintain a steady job and he couldn't pay the mortgage anymore and

everything collapsed on him. It's a mental situation that few people understand unless you go through it. A total horror. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out of L.A. at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I can't remember what they all are, but there are either seven or ten major things that happen in your life that can throw people into depression, make them suicidal, break up your marriage. I think one is divorce. One is death.

Loss of a child, loss of a spouse. This sounds like it to me, what this guy went through. Definitely, he has post-traumatic stress. This sounds like it to me what this guy went through. Definitely he has post traumatic stress. This is so traumatic. Nancy, remember this fugitive, and I didn't realize this until I was listening to the panel, the story came together in my mind. Not only did this fugitive stalk and perpetrate sex crimes against a 14 year old, but then he stalked Carlson and stalked the community. He repeated the offending pattern. And so Carlson ended up being another victim of this fugitive. They took him in. They were kind to him. They find out he's a child molester.

They no longer befriend him. and then he starts to become threatening towards the family and the community. The police should never, ever, ever have enlisted Carlson's support because he was a victim in this whole situation. In terms of post-traumatic stress, there's a new definition coming out of the field of the neurosciences, which is that trauma is when we experience something in our lives for which there's no prior learning. Meaning, let's say your dog dies or your spouse decides to divorce you. There is some prior learning because we all experience loss throughout the lifespan. So we know how every time we have a loss, prior learning for coping with being stalked, your family being threatened, being enlisted by the

police, killing somebody inadvertently, going through a protracted legal proceeding, losing everything, losing your family, finally being freed. And as Carlson said, he keeps looking over his shoulder thinking that the judge and the court system is going to say, oh, I made a mistake. You have to come back to jail. So now he has the fear of being re-traumatized and re-victimized, and he's going to have that for the rest of his life. This guy, David Carlson, was fishing with Powell when a guy in shorts pops out of the woods and says, hey, I'm Daniel. He was the caretaker of a vacant cabin next to Carlson's home in upstate New York. Carlson befriended the guy, gave him odd jobs in exchange for food, his wife's homemade bread. There, I said it, Bethany, just for you.

Long story short, one night while they're out sitting outside around a campfire, this guy that we now know to be Norris Acosta Sanchez confides his real name and that he was wanted for sex with a little girl in Ramapo, New York. He grumbled the charges were unfair. He called the little girl, quote, that little bitch. And I am recounting exactly a quote from Susan Edelman that she wrote in one of her many, many articles in the New York Post. Did you hear that John Cardillo? That little bitch? That's what he called the little girl? Oh, he's a reprehensible guy. But I want the listeners to understand something here

and how devastating this is. Every analysis we just heard from all your experts is spot on. But I've been doing a lot of reports on criminal justice reform. And when a guy like David Carlson, and this blew my mind, when a guy like David Carlson, and this blew my mind, when a guy like David Carlson is convicted and he gets a felony conviction, and if he's retried and they do it again, even if by some act of God, he's allowed out of jail in 30 days, with that felony conviction in the United States, there are 44,000 collateral consequences. People don't think about that. He can't be licensed to even be a barber. He basically can't get a credit card, can't rent an apartment. Most banks won't give him a lease or a loan on a vehicle. 44,000 collateral consequences for helping the police

and taking a violent predatory child rapist out of the equation. And I just hope juries, when they look at these self-defense cases, they don't get sanctimonious and say, well, he's not the police. He shouldn't be doing that. I hope they understand what they're really, really doing with these decisions because this is a good guy. This is a decent, hardworking family man. They destroyed this man's life. And God forbid they do it to

him again. And all it takes, Nancy, you know this, is one overzealous prosecutor who's trying to make a name for himself and victimizing him over again. 44,000 collateral consequences. Look, the cops should never have arrested him. I can tell you this. If this were me and my squad, I worked a gun unit in the Bronx, we wouldn't have to reel bad guys because I've done it. We would have been arguing with the district attorney saying, you put us on the stand. We're going to call him a hero. We're going to blow your case up. Final thought to Ben Oster. Go ahead, Ben. Nancy, I believe ultimately David's faith in the criminal justice system was vindicated. Although it took six years,

Judge Freehill did find him not guilty and freed him. It's regrettable that it took as long as it did, but thanks to people like Michael and we had other people on the defense team, former NYPD officer Vin Scotto, who did some investigative work, Rebecca Linkowski, Marissa Toohey, David Wallace. It was a joint effort and took us six years and three months, but ultimately we did vindicate David's faith in the criminal justice system. From that first day when he went to report the fact that there was a confessed rapist in the woods to the January 16th when Judge Freehill announced the verdict. Certainly it was a team effort, and we couldn't have done it if we hadn't had a stand-up guy like David Carlson as our client. So it's been quite an experience for all of us. And I believe at the end of the day, despite a myriad of mistakes by police in the grand jury, at trial, leading to the reversal, leading to the dismissal of an indictment, we ultimately got a hard-for-it, not guilty verdict for David. And for that, it's probably one of the most rewarding events in my career.

And to Michael Mazzarello, attorney for David Carlson. Michael? Nancy, it's 31 years of picking juries, and my faith in the system was rattled. Rattled because I couldn't believe that police officers could get on the stand and tell wild tales. I couldn't believe that police officers altered and changed documents two years after the fact. I couldn't believe that police officers that I know and love from being an assistant DA would not just come in and tell the truth. I was rattled. Ben's right. My faith in the system was restored, but I'm still rattled. I still can't believe that these people that got on the stand and just lied, law enforcement,

they got promotions, they got raises, and no ramifications whatsoever. I'm very happy for David. I think he is a simpleton that was put in the position that no person should ever, ever be put in. And I just pray to God, Nancy, that, you know, when I looked at Michael and Mario every night and I thought of David's children, I just thank God Judge Freehill did what he did. It was quite a surprise and quite a hard-fought victory. And I have to thank Ben for putting out a substantial amount of money, expertise. And, you know, the first trial, Nancy, was seven days of deliberations. It was stress beyond belief, but it worked out. So we're happy. Another episode in American justice.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, Nancy Grace crime story, signing off. Goodbye. You're listening to an I heart podcast.