Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hubby’s double life exposed when girlfriend dies during 'bondage photo shoot' in desert

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

Serial cheater John Chapman promises his girlfriend, Jaime Feden, an exciting and fun vacation. He then lures her to a Las Vegas desert and ties her up. Police later find Jaime dead.Friends described Jaime as a loving and innocent person with no enemies. Who wanted Jaime dead and why?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Dr. Wendy Patrick: California Prosecutor, Author "Red Flags," co-author NY Times Best Seller "Reading People"  John Cardillo: Host America Talks on Newsmax TV, Former NYPD  Bethany Marshall: Beverly Hills Psychoanalyst Dr. Tim Gallagher: Medical Examiner for the State of Florida   Levi Page: Investigative Journalist Crime Online   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Jamie Fieden, this tiny diminutive woman goes missing. It doesn't take long before police discover a man with a double life. Can you imagine? This guy allegedly living a double life. Can you imagine? This guy, allegedly living a double life, wants to take you out for a ride. You go out, you're driving through a beautiful desert area. You get out, and suddenly you end up tied up to a post or a tree. The last thing you see is the man you love

and thought loved you. Where is Jamie Fieden? Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The Channel 11 breaking news desk. I'm Jennifer Tomaszek and before we go here this morning I want to put up a picture again of a woman who has been missing for two months and police hope that you have some information about her. Her name is Jamie Fieden. She's 33 years old. She is from Bethel Park.

And the last time anybody saw her was September 15th, so two months ago. She's 33 years old again, and she weighs 75 pounds, and she is 4'1". Where is Jamie Fieden? This tiny, diminutive woman goes missing. You were just hearing our friends at WPXI Channel 11. That was Jennifer Trnazik. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. It doesn't take long before police discover a man with a double life. Listen. Well, I got off the phone with Chapman's wife a short time ago, and there are really three big takeaways. First, Maureen Chapman says her husband called her this morning and confessed to murder.

She says she's just learning her husband was living a double life, pretending to visit family and lying about his job. And lastly, Chapman says her husband drove her truck to Vegas and the Nevada desert, where he confessed to murdering Fieden. Chapman has only been charged with kidnapping at this point. He said he had murdered a woman. A frantic 6 a.m. phone call woke up Maureen Chapman. Her husband was calling from the Bethel Park Police Department. His words, I killed her because I had to. I was kind of in disbelief.

This is Jamie Fieden, the woman police say John Chapman admitted to murdering. Police say he drove her to Nevada, tied Fieden up to a post with zip ties, covered her mouth with duct tape, and let her suffocate. Nevada officials are now working to identify a body they found that matches Fieden's description. Our friends at 11 News WPXI, that was Amy Hudak. I think a big giveaway, a tip to the wife who says she had no idea what was going on. On his Facebook page, he refers to her, his wife, as quote, sis, under a profile picture. What? Sis? Are you kidding me? That would be big, big giveaway. Jamie Theden, the victim in this case, as I said, a tiny diminutive woman.

Can you imagine this guy allegedly living a double life wants to take you out for a ride. You go out, you're driving through a beautiful desert area you get out and suddenly you end up tied up to a post or a tree and then duct tape is placed over your mouth and nose and you die that way the last thing you see is the man you love and thought loved you with me an all-star panel renowned california prosecutor wendy patrick author of red Flags at WendyPatrickPhD.com. Host of America Talks on Newsmax TV, former NYPD John Cardillo. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at DrBethanyMarshall.com. The medical examiner for the state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher.

But right now to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Dave Mack. Let's just start at the beginning of this timeline and dissect this as you would if you were preparing a case for trial. When did Jamie Theden go missing? Nancy, the last time Jamie was seen was September the 15th, and that was when she was lured out of town by Chapman. Chapman and Fieden had a long relationship that goes back to high school or community college. It was referred to as an on-again, off-again relationship between the two, but it was certainly one-sided

on the side of Jamie Fieden because we know that Chapman has been married at least two times, the first time for seven years and was married in the last 12 months to a lady named Maureen. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry to interrupt you, Dave Mack, but Bethany Marshall, whoa. I know you have to deal with a lot of problems like how much do my boots cost on Rodeo Drive with all of your clients and my house isn't as big as my next door neighbors and my pool's not in the

right shape blah blah blah but bethany in the real world i got a real problem with this guy john chapman allegedly living a double life now dave mack crime online.com investigative reporter tells me feed in jamie was in love with him but when you look at his bio on Facebook, he says, I'm a 39-year-old single guy from Pennsylvania. I've lived here most of my life. I'm always trying to meet new and interesting people. Translation, I want to get laid. That's what that means on Facebook, okay? That's a technical legal term, Bethany.

I'm not sure you're familiar with it. But then it goes on. Now, wait for it. Wait for it. Any relationship to his wife, Maureen, is further obscured when he comments under his wife's picture, looking good, sis. Help me, Bethany. Well, actually, this is kind of a classic pattern of an antisocial personality disorder. They often lead a double life. They have multiple sexual partners, a great deal of promiscuity. They relate to women as sexual objects, always trying to conquer them. that they will desexualize the wife while being overly sexualized with other women in society. I see this actually in couples therapy with men like this,

where they actually kind of call the wife dude, sis, poke her in the ribs, treat her like she's a little sister. All the while they're having a double life and affairs all over the place. But the other part is that Chapman's wife could probably see them. But why do they do that? Why do people desexualize the marriage partner? Because they want control over the marriage partner, and they only want to have sex with people who do not see them for who they really are. You know, the people in your primary circle know that you have feet of clay, right? They may know that you bounced a check or that maybe you got a traffic violation or

maybe you're not so nice or maybe your breath smells in the morning. That's not sexy to them. They're going to desexualize those partners. There's a very famous case in my field written up by a man named John Malloy, Reed Malloy, who talks about a case where a man goes out, he makes his wife dress up as a little girl, like a doll, makes her lie down in the bathroom, goes out, has sex with other women, comes home and defecates on her. Now, this is a classic case in my field. We talk about it in classes because this perpetrator was over-sexualizing every woman in the world.

And then he was turning his wife into a little girl, an object in which he just defecates on, and she has no value at all. So this is a classic, classic pattern. Okay, can I just apologize right now to the listeners for what Dr. Bethany Marshall just said? Because I'm going to have that stuck in my head for I don't know how many days. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Bethany Marshall for ruining the rest of my day. But you know what? I asked for it. I did not expect that answer, but I blame myself totally, which is probably another neurosis of some sort. You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags. The problem is he's got a double life,

as Bethany accurately pointed out, with a whole life, a whole life going on that Jamie knew nothing about, but that does not a murder case make. That's right, and you know, it's one of those things that likely will play into a defense in a case like this. We hear about love triangles all the time, and then much of the time that does involve a double life. It's also interesting that we have some online evidence

here. The desexualization, though, is fascinating, you know, not just because of the reasons Dr. Marshall mentioned. By the way, the Reed-Molloy case is also interesting. I work with Reed in threat assessment cases, but it will play in circumstantially, Nancy, as you and I, and actually John Cardillo as well, have dealt with in formulating why this isn't just a case of someone leading a double life and why the circumstances indicate it is a murder. Now, that's obviously some of the analysis that they're going to prepare for trial. And as we move forward, because remember, right now it's just a kidnapping. And it's also an interesting case regarding corpus. You know, somebody can confess to a crime, but you also need to prove that it happened.

So all of what we're discussing here will also be relevant in proving that up as well. You know what? You're right, Wendy Patrick. The law is that a case cannot be made on a confession alone. It must be proven otherwise. What happened to Jamie Fieden, and how did 39-year-old, so-called single male, pull off a double life that ended in murder. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We've broken down the timeline of events in this case for you to understand exactly what happened and when.

So Jamie Fieden was last seen September 15th. On September 23rd, both Fieden and John Chapman arrived in Las Vegas after driving across country from Bethel Park. He told her that they were going to look at homes. And then two days later, Chapman told Fieden they were going to drive to the desert for a photo shoot. According to court paperwork, Chapman told police while in the desert, he tied Fieden's hands and feet to a sign pole and covered her mouth with duct tape, causing her to suffocate and die. He then left her and drove back to Bethel Park. Then on October 5th, remains of a woman were found in the Nevada desert. And now on October 14th, a missing persons report was filed for Fieden. Just yesterday, Chapman called police and was asked about Fieden's disappearance.

He apparently gave detectives false information about the case. And today he was charged in her kidnapping. A charge does not a jury conviction make. As you just heard, a confession alone cannot be the basis of a murder indictment or conviction. It's got to be proven and corroborated. Anybody can walk into the police station and give a false confession. Do I believe it happens often? No. But it does happen and it wreaks havoc in the justice system. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You just heard from Channel 11 WPXI Lisa Sylvester

describing what we think is a timeline breakdown. Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. To top it all off, Jamie Fieden, the murder victim, had something called Vader Syndrome. I'm not quite sure what that is. I'm just a JD. You're the MD. I know that she was only about four feet tall. And she had been seeing John Chapman since

either high school or community college. They had been together a long time. On top of that, he was a newlywed. He had been married to his wife, Maureen, less than a year. So explain to me, Dr. Gallagher, what is Vader syndrome? Well, Vader syndrome is a collection of developmental abnormalities that occur in one person after they're born. A Vader, V for Victoria, the first letter represents vertebral anomalies. For instance, they may have severe scoliosis of the spine, which is bending, twisting of the spine.

There may be extra bones in the spine. It's not a normal spine. Also, A, the A part of vater, stands for anus. And oftentimes the anus is not open, and that has to be open surgically. And then there are other abnormalities of the limbs and of the internal organs that prevent them from development, for developing normally, that can lead to a very short stature and a very difficult physical life. You know, apparently all the signs were there. Dr. Bethany Marshall, Hollywood psychoanalyst at drbethanymarshall.com.

Did you notice that her, Jamie's, friends did not like John Chapman? They did not want her seeing him. That's a big, big red flag. I did notice that. And one of the things that keeps grabbing my attention about this is the fact that she had a disability and he didn't. And did he use that to control her? Because people with disabilities are often abused in very specific ways. Maybe they're shamed. Maybe their disability checks are taken. Sometimes they're thrust into a public situation where they're demeaned by their partner.

They're told that they're not allowed to have restroom breaks or that their voice sounds silly. So he chose a partner who he had in his life for a long, long time, who I think he could probably control and manipulate because of her disability. And so that held meaning for him. And we see how it all ended. He tied her to a post. He duct taped her mouth.

He watched her suffer. I cannot believe that this was the first time he treated her this way. It's just that it spilled over into homicide at this point. But I'm sure violence, mistreatment, and abuse towards her had been building for many, many years. Well, I know of one incident, and I'm curious as to whether this will come into trial. John Cardillo with me, former NYPD host of America Talks on Newsmax TV. John, a friend of Jamie's, claims that Chapman mistreated her, including using Jamie for money. And she describes an incident when feeding Jamie allegedly arrived at a restaurant with Chapman and Jamie had two black eyes.

Yeah, I mean, that's indicative of a long-term period of abuse. She was probably hiding it. I mean, look, as an investigator, we'd be looking into why he would choose to cheat on his wife with somebody with such physical infirmities. Was there some kind of fetish? Was he into something weird, bizarre? Quite frankly, if it were me, I'd be looking for other victims at this point, other disappearances of people with similar conditions that lived in his area, because the fact pattern as we know it indicates a very troubled guy, a very dangerous guy. And so I think the instincts of the friends were spot on. Look, they got a bad vibe off the guy. That's typically indicative, even though it's intangible. And now you combine that with physical evidence, signs of abuse, black eyes. I think law enforcement's

going to be looking very hard at his electronic devices, his history, his bank accounts. And again, if it were me, I'd be looking at other victims that were either of similar stature, similar infirmity that may have gone missing, victims of abuse that didn't report it in his area, because it wouldn't surprise me if we find other victims. Yeah, because if he's leading a double life, how do I know it's not a triple life or even worse? Or quadruple. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I hadn't even thought of that, John Cardillo. You know, another issue straight out to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. How was Jamie's body found? It was actually found out in the desert by a man who was out on a hike with his two young sons. They had pulled off, they were looking at old train engines and pulled off onto an old dirt road out in the middle of nowhere. And one of his older sons actually saw something in the distance that intrigued them. And it ended up being what appears to be, because she hasn't been positively identified yet, but appear to be the body of Jamie. What I know is, like Dave Mack just told us, a man was out hiking with his boys,

and he says that the boys saw something in the distance, but they didn't know what it was. So he, the dad, Lenso, tells the boys to get back in the truck, and he went to investigate. He finds a body and immediately calls the Lincoln County Sheriff's Department. He says at first he thought it was a child's body because the body was so tiny. And this is very probative or proves something to me. You know, sometimes I see a fact, and I don't know exactly what it's telling me, but I know that it's probative and will be probative at trial. There were no clothes on the body and no clothes to be found anywhere

nearby. So her attacker, her killer either raped her or had sex with her and left her that way, naked and tied to a post in the desert with duct tape over her mouth and nose, or he took her clothing away so her body would not be identified. Important trial fact. Under the law, the state can bring in evidence of what occurred before, during, and after the incident to show frame of mind, course of conduct, M.O. modus operandi. Neither of those two scenarios reflect well on John Chapman at all. The body, Jamie Fieden, was already heavily decomposed and just dumped off like a piece of trash. According to Lenso, it's not a good sight. He says the road was in a desolate area

and the body could possibly still be there if his boys didn't spot it. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. A Chapman hasn't been charged with homicide. Any kind of homicide charges that if it occurred in Nevada and if there is a a body found out there would fall within their realm and they'd have to assume prosecution. According to police while she was missing the victim's family says someone reached out to them from her Facebook messenger account pretending to be the victim. The police say Chapman was on the other end. I feel so sorry for them, and I just hope they do get that person, and I hope he gets what he deserves for that family because that is so wrong. According to detectives in Las Vegas, they did locate a body that fits many of the unique characteristics of Jamie,

but that body has not been officially identified. Will it be able to be proven at trial that this is Jamie Fieden and that John Chapman murdered her? Big problem. Of course, we all know that a murder case can be proven without a body, but it does present a host of difficulties. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You were just hearing our friends at Channel 11 WPXI. That was Gabrielle DeLuca reporting. Oh man, every time we think we're within reach of enough evidence to charge with murder, another wrinkle appears in the case. How can she be positively identified? To Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida, with her body in such an advanced state of decomposure, how can she be identified? Well, we do have her skeletal remains, and because of her medical

condition, it's more than likely that she has x-rays that were taken at a doctor's office that we can use to compare against the remains to see what her developmental abnormalities are. You know, she does have Vader syndrome, which has very distinct bone patterns, and I'm sure that we could positively identify her using x-rays from her doctor's office and comparing those against the bony remains. Well, what about her dental records? We can also use that as a supplemental form of identification as well. Between the two and the circumstances that surround her being there, positive identification is certainly within the realm of possibility.

And I'm going to circle back to John Cardillo about her missing clothing. But Dr. Tim Gallagher, explain how specific dental records can be unique to one individual like a fingerprint. Oh, absolutely. It can, especially when there are dental restorations, meaning some of the cavities have been filled with an amalgam. Some of the orthodontic work may still be in place. We can use distinct and individualized characters of the person's dental x-rays to compare against the dental work that they received. Additionally, gaps in the teeth or root patterns that are the tooth that are below the gum line are very distinctive individual to individual. And we could use those dental records to compare and find the identification of the person.

What does it say to you, John Cardillo, host of America Talks on Newsmax TV, former NYPD, that all of her clothing was missing? Well, one of the easiest ways to identify someone, right? I mean, if you take the clothing, you can compare it to maybe a photo that a victim posted to social media the day before they went missing, a photo a friend took of them. The family members would have made, maybe the mom or the dad says, oh, yep, that was her favorite shirt. She loved that I bought it for her last Christmas. That's definitely hers.

And in her case, because of her condition, Vader syndrome and her stature, her clothing would have been very unique, potentially child's clothing. So if you had those photos of the clothing the day before or day that she disappeared on social media, on a cell phone or the family friend saying, yep, that's definitely hers. I had to buy for her in the child section. You've got a pretty key piece of evidence for identification. So removing them certainly indicates that someone didn't want her to be identified if she was found. What do you make of it, Wendy Patchett, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags? I'm just sort of adding to what's already been said.

You can get rid of the clothes, but you cannot always get rid of what the remains tell you about whose body this is. And particularly when you have these unique features, as we've been discussing, of course, nobody wants to jump to conclusions or reach them prematurely. But Nancy, circling back to one of the things you said earlier, when it comes to proving a murder, we always like to say we don't want to be callous about it, but no body, no problem in terms of reaching a verdict. But it has to proceed very differently. The circumstances surrounding why we know, even if we hadn't found a body in this case, that's not to say a murder can't be proven. Here, it is a lot easier. And not only do we have the kind of unique features we can match up,

the fact that this man chose this particular woman, John talks about looking for similar victims. One of the things we may find in common is vulnerability. The vulnerability, the exploitation that took place here. You know, this is one we also don't need to prove motive, but motive's going to matter in a case like this. And everything we've been talking about are just more of the things that the prosecutors are going to get in line in getting this case ready to go to a jury and potentially, Nancy, adding additional charges. Well, here's another piece of evidence. Apparently, even after she goes missing, she is still continuing to Facebook. Listen. Authorities were back at the alleged victim's Bethel Park home searching for more evidence. Police say

the victim's uncle was getting Facebook messages purporting to be her, but which were giving incorrect answers to questions. But we don't believe that was in fact her. We believe it was Mr. Chapman posing as her. The chief says the investigation is continuing here and in Nevada. He has said that is it in fact true, and we're going to have to see if we can find Jamie, either living or deceased. And we're hoping that there's still a ray of hope that she is alive and we can bring her back home safely. You were hearing our friends at WTAE News 4. That was reporter Bob Mayo. You're also hearing Police Chief Timothy O'Connor. What more do you need for Pete's sake?

Who would go on her Facebook and pretend to be her? And I've got the Facebook postings. This is Jamie Fieden, the missing woman. Question two, Jamie, did I miss something? Did you and John break up? Someone wrote her. She writes back, yeah, but we're still friends. What happened? She writes, Question.

I feel you, girl. She responds, It was my idea to be friends because I didn't want us to hate each other. My family was also an issue as well. Another question. When's John's birthday? That's an odd question. Have you tried asking him? Maybe try getting to know him? Answer. No, LOL. I just saw a John Chapman in the paper with a birthday. Didn't know if it was him lol she allegedly writes back honestly i'm not sure about john's birthday we dated but i didn't feel he was quote the one and there was a lot i

didn't know about him he has a history i know that but i never felt unsafe around him and he was always up front about his past really Really? Really? Did he write that? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. His family was nearly speechless. His stepmom told me he's married to another woman and has been for about a year. The family says they thought John Chapman was going to work for a trip to Las Vegas, but that wasn't the case. According to police, Chapman's family told me he met Jamie Fieden at either a high school or a college for students with special educational needs and that he often has a lot of close friends. Police say Chapman would often stay at

Feedon's Bethel Park townhome. Chapman's family also tells me he was living with his wife and his mom in Oakmont through the summer and everything seemed to be fine until they got a phone call from police a few hours ago. What went through my mind is just what a horribly sad tragedy you know um we heard that he had gone to las vegas he was going there for he said for a work convention so i think at this point we're all just in shock it's just kind of you know it's just it's just what you know it doesn't seem like it's real a work convention man that is so tired a work convention you were just hearing from our friends at channel 11 WPXI that was Amy Hudak reporting wow and you also heard the voice of

Pamela Chapman this guy had really snowed everybody but I want to circle back to Bethany Marshall psychoanalyst in Hollywood Bethany, she knew this guy. Jamie knew John Chapman since they were in high school. But these Facebook postings, these text responses, honestly, I'm not sure about his birthday. We dated, but I didn't really know that much about him. What? Nancy, the fact that he's on her Facebook,

not only is he trying to throw people off the trail, but this tells me that he has infiltrated every part of this victim's life. He met her at a school for people with disabilities. He doesn't have a disability. So that tells me he specifically chose her because of her disability. People with disabilities tend to be more isolated. They're vulnerable. They have fewer friends. They have less access to the justice system. They are more willing to be pliable, to give their money away, to do anything to maintain the love of the love object. reasons I believe she didn't have clothing on, according to one report, he told her that they were going to like a bondage and discipline photo shoot in the desert. So he may have taken her clothes off before he tied her to that pole. And the poor little thing may have thought that she was, you know, sexy and he wanted her and he was taking pictures of her. But not only that, then he poses as her on her Facebook account, which tells me

that he also believed that she belonged to him, that she was his possession. He could do whatever he liked with her body, her money, her home. He stayed there with her social media, that it all belonged to him, including her life. To John Cardillo, former NYPD, how do you trace from where these messages came? Oh, there's several ways you can do it. You can, obviously, you can locate IP address. You can ping his cell phone. You can look and see if the IP was coordinating with where his vehicle was, if you can get a subpoena for the GPS on his car. I mean, law enforcement today, it's much easier to track your electronic footprint in many respects than if you completely went offline, went totally analog, and were just walking around without

any device. So really, you're a walking homing beacon, as long as you've got a cell phone on you and if you've got any of the laptops that have wireless you know it's even freakier out to crimeonline.com investigative reporter dave mack a friend of jamie's got very suspicious and she's the one posing these questions and he's giving some of the wrong answers she got very apprehensive about chapman because he friended her, the friend, on Facebook and began commenting on her photos like a beautiful rose for a very beautiful woman. If my husband, David Lynch, sent a picture of a rose or commented on a rose, a beautiful rose for a beautiful woman. And it wasn't to me. You know, all H-E-double-L would break loose, Dave Mack. Tell me about these postings. How dare he friend her friend after he's killed her? He's basically coming on to her online. I think he was the

ultimate con man trying to cover his tracks by trying to get this woman who did not like him, but trying to get her to warm up to him to continue his con. But there's something else very interesting about his pattern over the years. In his first marriage, where he was married for seven years, he and that wife stayed with Jamie Faden at some point during the marriage, and Chapman told his wife to pretend that she was his sister so they could stay there. And that wife, Tammy, said that Chapman bled Jamie dry of every penny she had. Then after they divorced, she found a number of Ziploc baggies that Chapman had that had girls' panties in these baggies

with a name written on the baggie. And the question is, how many women did he possibly kill? Okay, that's shedding a whole new light on this. And it was mentioned earlier by John Cardillo, who really hit the nail on the head. Are there other victims? I want you to take a listen to our friends at Channel 11 WPXI. This is Gabriel DeLuca. According to the criminal complaint, the suspect bound the victim's hands and feet with plastic zip ties and affixed her to a sign post. He then applied duct tape to her mouth and then to her nose until such a time that she was unable to breathe. Police say she suffocated and Chapman then untied her, removed the tape in her clothing and left her there. But Chapman hasn't been charged with homicide. According to detectives in Las Vegas they did locate a body that

fits many of the unique characteristics of Jamie. Finding a body you're gonna have to do your due diligence to make sure that's the exact person so until we receive actual confirmation that they have found her I mean there's always a possibility that she's still alive, someone out there, and we'd like to bring her home. The chief did tell us that if Chapman is eventually charged with homicide, those charges will come from Las Vegas, and he'll be extradited back to Nevada. You know, a murder case can be prosecuted where the body is found

or where the murder took place. Wendy Patrick, this woman, Jamie Fieden, has been described as sweet, gentle, loving soul taken advantage of by a predator. And over all the years I've prosecuted and covered crimes, it just hurts me that the most tender and the most vulnerable people are the ones that become victims. Nancy, it's just heartbreaking. And part of the reason that these types of things happen, as you and I and John and Dr. Marshall have no doubt always encountered, is that people that are less than the absolute physical ideal, less than the kind of intelligence most people would want, are uniquely susceptible to targeted

attention. They're not used to receiving flattery or sexual attention of any kind. And they are also uniquely vulnerable for exactly that reason. That's just what John Cardillo said earlier, that maybe this is somebody who does target this pool of individuals. And Dave Mack really kind of shed the light on what we've learned so far that brings it full circle, Nancy, to make it seem like this fits a profile of that kind of a man. And I would even add that what you pointed out about friending the friends of the victim also not only fits that profile, but also serves to further the narrative of this victim somehow is still alive. Something that is going to falter with all of the unknown answers

to what probably are very simple questions from friends and family. Well, I've heard enough. And this is my verdict. John Chapman, rot in hell. Nancy Gray's Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.