Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Hubby's lover to flip evidence in case of missing mom of 5 Jennifer Dulos?

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

The body of missing mom of five, Jennifer Dulos, has not been found. But both her estranged husband and his girlfriend have been arrested for a second time. Now it seems Michelle Troconis is rolling over on Fotis Dulos, telling police she cannot provide him an alibi. With Nancy Grace today to discuss the impact of this new information on the case is: Former Assistant District Attorney and now defense attorney Darryl Cohen, Karen Smith Forensics Expert with Bare Bones Consulting, and RadarOnline Entertainment Editor Alexis Terezchuck. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. ANYTHING ABOUT THE NEW CHARGE? JUST LIKE HER BOYFRIEND FODOS DULOS WHO WAS ARRESTED YESTERDAY, TREKONIS IS ALSO NOW FACING AN ADDITIONAL CHARGE OF TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE. REMEMBER THAT MICHELLE IS PRESUMED INNOCENT AND SHE SHOULD BE. WE'RE PREPARED TO LET JUDGMENT IN THIS CASE REST IN THE JURY'S HANDS.

ACCORDING TO THE ARREST WARRANT POLICE RELEASED YESTERDAY, INVESTIGATORS FOUND A BLOOD-LIKE SUBSTANCE CONTAINING JENNIFER'S DNA. INSIDE THE WORK TRUCK THEY SAY FODOS DULOS DROVE TO NEW CANAN THE DAY JENNIFER released yesterday, investigators found a blood-like substance containing Jennifer's DNA inside the work truck. They say Fotis Doulos drove to New Canaan the day Jennifer disappeared. Fotis and Michelle were later captured on surveillance cameras at an Avon car wash, getting that same truck detailed. When questioned by detectives as to why Doulos would need to have the truck cleaned shortly after his estranged wife's disappearance, Chaconis allegedly replied,

quote, well, obviously all the evidence says because you showed me the picture of the blood in the door. It's because the body of Jennifer at some point was in there. This morning on the Vinnie Penn Project on 960 WELI, Norm Pettis, who was representing Fotis Dulos, had this to say. We were somewhat surprised by some of the allegations. It appears that his girlfriend has changed her tune to the police and is now recanting on the alibi, which we're stunned by. We don't know what leverage the state used against her to get her to change her testimony, and we'll find out. Now in a statement this afternoon, Pattis added, quote, our hearts go out to Mr. Conis. We are confident that she will in the end tell the truth at trial.

The state is a terrifying enemy, but a clean conscious is a powerful ally. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You are listening to our friend at WFSB, Matt McFarland. The husband of a missing Connecticut mom of five, Jennifer Dulos, quote, is in a fight for his life as damning new evidence stacks up against him. In the last hours, his girlfriend, his lover, Michelle Chaconis, is arrested again. Everybody, thank you for being with us today on Crime Stories. Let's go straight out to Alexis Tereschuk with RadarOnline.com. Alexis, I want to start off with a 911 call. Take a listen.

Yeah, I'm worried about my wife and kids because they left to go to New York, and I haven't been able to get in touch with them. Okay. They were going to New York. What's the license plate on the car? Excuse me? What's the license plate on the car? I have to get this for you. Okay. Who's the car excuse me what's the license plate on the car uh i have to get this for you okay what's who's the car registered to it's uh registered to my wife's name jennifer doulos now there you

hear alexis to rest chuck photos doulos now this is the day before his wife files for divorce that divorce. That was 2017. Fast forward, Jennifer Dulos drops her children off at a ritzy school and they drop off line. She drives away like she always does every weekday morning, but she starts missing appointments starting around 11 a.m. Her car found abandoned. Her SUV found abandoned. Bring me up to date. The most recent thing that has happened is that Fortas' girlfriend was arrested again in the case. Police have said they have even more evidence that she was tampering from the beginning. She and Fortas were arrested together

very soon after Jennifer went missing, the two of them together, because there is video of the two of them all around town after Jennifer went missing, the two of them together, because there is video of the two of them all around town after Jennifer went missing. And police believe that these videos show that they are dropping bags of bloody clothes, possibly even body parts of Jennifer in 30 different places around town. And this crime, you said she dropped, that Jennifer dropped the kids off in the morning at school. She did. It was about eight o'clock in the morning. All five of her children, two sets of twins were dropped off. They believe that this crime was committed very quickly in the house. It's amazing that there are 20 to 30 locations where police have found

bloody sponges and clothing. In the last hours, for those of you just joining us here at Crime Stories, the girlfriend of Jennifer Dulos, the missing Connecticut mom of five, the girlfriend of her husband, Fotis Dulos, has been arrested not on murder, not on kidnapping, but on tampering with evidence charges. That really tells me a lot because Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, they're not arresting the next door neighbor. They're not arresting the pizza delivery guy

for tampering with evidence. They keep arresting. This is the second time they've arrested the husband, Fotis Dulos, and his girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, for tampering with evidence. What does that tell you, Daryl Cohen? It tells me they are right around the corner from arresting them for murder. The more they push them, the more they just squeeze them, the more they're hoping that they're going to give up where she is, what happened to her, and who did it. They must be waiting on a body, but can Michelle Traconis, the lover of Jennifer's husband, Fotis Dulos, provide that. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. This is Whit Johnson.

Jennifer disappeared on May 24th after dropping her kids off at school. Authorities believe she was the victim of a serious physical assault, discovering bloodstains in her garage. The couple was locked in a vicious divorce and custody battle. Jennifer claiming in 2017 court documents, I am terrified for my family's safety. He is dangerous. Fotis Dulos strongly denying any threatening behavior.

Fotis and his live-in girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, both out on bail after pleading not guilty to charges of evidence tampering and hindering prosecution. According to arrest warrants, surveillance video from the night Jennifer went missing captured two people police suspect to be Fotis and Traconis tossing bags, including a blood-stained sponge, into trash cans around Hartford, Connecticut. I don't get it. Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com. If they, cops, really have Fotis Dulos, the estranged husband,

and Michelle Traconis, his lover, on video throwing out items, and they follow them video to video to video, different trash cans and, I guess, dumps, and they pull out the missing mom's bloody clothes and bloody sponges that match up to DNA. Jennifer Dulos, why no arrest? What do you know, Alexis? There is no body. Jennifer's body has never been found. And these two together have been silent, despite the fact there is apparently Michelle has changed her alibi tune. She

originally said that she and Fotis took a shower together on that morning that Jennifer went missing, saying they were together, they took a shower. Then she backtracked and she changed her story. She said, okay, we didn't take a shower. That's not true. But she didn't say, I know that Fotis was with Jennifer and he killed her and here's where the body is. They don't have a body. They want a body. So this is an ironclad case. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. So Alexis Tereschuk, you know, you've covered a lot of murder investigations, but Karen Smith, joining me, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen Smith, we've done a lot of cases together. So what, Fotis Dulos, if he's guilty, is going to get a gold star or extra credit because he managed to get rid of the body where we can't find it? So there's not going to be a prosecution? So what, every murderer out there knows, oh, just let me dismember the body or stick it in acid or somehow hide it forever where it can't be found and I'll never be prosecuted. So that's the state of affairs, Karen Smith. What can we do about it? We can do a lot about it, Nancy.

Listen, you and I both know it's better to have the body to go to prosecution, but you don't have to have it. There is so much evidence pointing to these two people at this point. You have blood in Jennifer Dulos' garage in a number of different places, and we're going to get to that because that is key. You have bloody clothing, blood on the bags. You have bloody sponges and mops. You have blood inside of a vehicle that was used, apparently, to transport the body. Listen, this evidence is not just circumstantial. It is directly linked to these two people. And frankly, I don't understand why charges haven't been brought

other than the fact that they just haven't found her body yet. And I hope they do. Tampering, tampering, tampering. The only charges we've got. But we have insight into the new warrant. Listen to Fox 61 Dave Polisi. Shelter Conis said nothing as she walked into Connecticut State Police Troop G to turn herself in. Why are you guys here today? the police. She was arrested for the first time in a year. She was arrested for the first time in a year. Michelle Tricona said nothing as she

walked into Connecticut State Police Troop G to turn herself in. Why are you guys here today? Is it have anything to do with the August 13th interview in which police say you lied accompanied by her attorney, Andrew Bowman, Tricona's talked

to police for the first time since August 13th, a date state police say in a recorded interview that your cone is admits she had not been truthful. According to her newly released arrest warrant, during the interview, she told police that she did not physically see Fotis Dulos at 4 Jefferson Crossing from the time she woke at 6.40 a.m. to 1.30 in the afternoon the day Jennifer Dulos was reported missing. Previously, she had said that they were together that morning. Police say she also told investigators that on the afternoon of Jennifer's disappearance, she witnessed Fotis cleaning the backseat of a 2001 Toyota Tacoma for what Fotis described as a coffee spill. The same Tacoma can be seen here in surveillance photographs parked along Lapham Road in New Canaan that morning, the same area where Jennifer's Chevy Suburban was abandoned. That last thing, analyze that for me, Alexis Torres, Chuck,

RedRoundLine.com investigative reporter. What did they say they saw? They said that they saw them at a car wash, that Michelle and Fotis were at a car wash together. And the reason she said they were at a car wash is because he told her they were cleaning up a coffee stain. And she even said, police have said that she said, it did not smell like coffee. Because it wasn't

coffee. It was blood crime stories with nancy grace surveillance images show dulos taking the truck to get washed and detailed his project manager who owns the toyota told investigators his boss kept pressuring him to replace the vehicle's passenger seats. Quote, he told him to switch out the seats so that they would not be found. His attorney says his client did do that, but kept the old ones just in case. My client was smart enough to know that something might be amiss here, so he held on to the seats. And when the police came with a warrant looking for his truck, he handed all the seats as well. DNA testing on a blood-like substance from the seats matched Jennifer's.

What does he think now? I think he thinks what everybody thinks when you see the evidence. I mean, if you read this warrant, there's a strong circumstantial case could be made in that warrant for murder. How bad does it seem right now for Fotis? I'm concerned. I still think he's a defendable case. I think he's engaged in some conduct that is questionable, but not necessarily guilt-worthy. And that's just the kind of argument that would be made if the case goes to trial. Welcome back. This is Crime Stories. I'm

Nancy Grace, Jennifer Dulos, mother of five in the wealthy enclave in New Canaan, Connecticut, now missing for months. A strange husband, Fotis Dulos, with his lover, Michelle Traconis, ostensibly caught on video throwing out bloody clothes, bloody sponges at multiple stops, multiple trash cans, 20 to 30 of them, caught on surveillance. And now, in the last hours, that girlfriend, the lover, Michelle Traconis, re-arrested for tampering with evidence. Now this is after she's already admitted and given a statement reportedly that she lied in her first statement. She cannot alibi boyfriend Fotis Dulos.

On the morning, Jennifer, wife Jennifer, goes missing. You were just hearing our friend at NBC4, Sarah Wallace, describing how she is no longer, no longer alibying Fotis Dulos. Let's take a listen to the attorney. This arrest warrant suggests Dulos took an employee's red Toyota truck to New Canaan on May 24th and was lying in wait for his estranged wife, Jennifer, after she dropped off the couple's five children at school. The theory is that Dulos drove away with her body, abandoned her Chevy Suburban nearby, and got back in the Toyota. His girlfriend, Michelle Triconis, who originally gave Dulos his alibi, has now backed off that story, saying she had not been truthful. She

confirmed she was with him later when he dropped garbage bags into trash receptacles in West Hartford. But the warrant says she claimed to have no knowledge of what Dulos was doing. You used strong words. You called her a lying lover. I did. You believe that? I wouldn't have said it if I don't i spoke to doulos's attorney exclusively this afternoon is she flipping on him i've read the warrant as you have i have no additional information reading that warrant it sure looks like it you were just hearing again our friend at nbc for new york reporter sarah wallace and she is speaking to Dulos' lawyer, Pattis, who claims that lover Michelle Triconis is just a lying ex-lover. Daryl Cohen, here's the deal. She's in

it up to her eyeballs, because if what I hear Alexis Tereshuk is telling me, if I'm hearing it correctly, she, the girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, followed in a separate vehicle the husband, Fotis Dulos, to the car wash. Because apparently they're both seen on video. Isn't that what we heard, Jackie Howard? They're both seen on video at the car wash. While he is detailing his project manager's Toyota Tacoma. Then he orders the employee to get rid of the back seat because he thinks that one of Jennifer's hairs may be on it when police come looking.

Hey, I'm not worried if police come looking at my beat-up minivan. Have at it. Clean up while you're in there. So that doesn't concern me. So not only does he tell Daryl Cohen, the employee, to get rid of the back seats and the employees to coma. All right. He then insists the employee use his, Fotis Dulos, Porsche back seats. Now, what would you say, Daryl Cohen? If somebody comes up and tells you, don't you drive a fancy sports car? Somebody comes

and rips the back seat out of your car and says, here, use my back seat for my other car. First of all, just somebody saying my other car. You know, I know a few people have more than one car and I'm very suspicious of them. You better not be one of them, Daryl Cohen. But long story short, wouldn't that concern you, Daryl? I mean, that right there to me shows that something's very, very wrong. Ripping the backseat out of somebody else's Tacoma and saying, hey, use my backseat? Uh-uh, no, of course that guy saved the backseat. I think it's very kind of them to ask to use a different backseat. Of course, that's ridiculous.

There's no way that someone... Well, hold on. Let me throw a very technical legal term on you. John David taught it to me. It's redonkulous. Okay. This is so far-fetched. It's crazy talk. It's redonkulous. It resembles that remark. This is people that are scared to death. You know, you need to get with it, Daryl. It's redonkulous like a donkey, not doctor like a document. No, redonkulous. You got to work on that.

I mean, right there, you don't think a jury would convict him right there on that? And he's worried Jennifer has left a hair from when he hugged her? What are they doing in the backseat? They're estranged. She's not hopping in the backseat with Fotis Dulos. No no he's hopping in the back seat to do something that he shouldn't have done he's hopping in the back seat and that seat has got to disappear because there's blood there's dna there's other type of trace evidence that's got to go and it's got to go quick so you're right it's redonkula. Another legal term, another legal term.

No, Sherlock. Yeah, he's doing something back there. Did I tell you, speaking of Sherlock, the twins are obsessed with Sherlock Holmes and they tear apart every mystery possible. And this one certainly doesn't take Sherlock Holmes. Alexis Tereschuk with me, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter Karen Smith,

forensics expert and bare-bones consulting founder, along with former prosecutor, now gone to the dark side, defense attorney Daryl Cohen. Hey, take a listen to this. It's NBC's Sarah Wallace again talking about those back seats. Nothing good happens in the back seat. Surveillance images show Dulos taking the truck to get washed and detailed. His project manager, who owns the Toyota, told investigators his boss kept

pressuring him to replace the vehicle's passenger seats. Quote, he told him to switch out the seats so that they would not be found. His attorney says his client did do that, but kept the old ones just in case. My client was smart enough to know that something might be amiss here, so he held on to the seats. And when the police came with a warrant looking for his truck, he handed all the seats as well. DNA testing on a blood-like substance from the seats matched Jennifer's. What does he think now?

I think he thinks what everybody thinks when you see the evidence. I mean, if you read this warrant, there's a strong circumstantial case could be made in that warrant for murder. How bad does it seem right now for Fotis? I'm concerned. I still think he's a defendable case. I think he's engaged in some conduct that is questionable, but not necessarily guilt, guilt worthy. Wow. OK, back to Alexis Reschuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter. What more do we know about the work project manager?

That's a key witness. And I really believe cops are on to something, something very critical with Michelle Chaconis, because I think she knows more. I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't have a very good idea where the body is. And another thing for everybody wants to know online all the time, where are the children? The children, all five of them are with Jennifer Dulos' mom in Manhattan. And the husband, Fotis Dulos, is driving her insane. The other day, he hit her with a demand to have her mentally evaluated. The grandma. You know what? Okay, that's a whole nother can of worms. So let's stress Chuck.

Tell me what we know. So you're right. The co worker, the man who's who works with him, he was very suspicious. He's told police from the get go. He says that photos had that, you know, they'd switch cars, and he wanted to keep the other car. And the co-worker said, no, you have to give it back to me. And then when he brought it to him and he said that he needed to switch out the seats, he knew immediately that this was something that was very suspicious. So instead of throwing them out or doing anything, he kept them. He knew that this was something that the police were going to come to him with and they did. And what it also does is it sets up the timeline to contradict the alibi that Fotis and Michelle first have floated. She, as I said, is backtracking on it, but this is also going to contradict it because of the co-worker's timing with the car.

This is going to show that Fotis had the car that Jennifer likely disappeared in. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The warrant shows surveillance photos of a red Toyota Tacoma that was seen in the same area where Jennifer Suburban was abandoned not long before. It pulls into 80 Mountain Springs Road at 1222 p.m. That home is owned by the four group and has been the site of police investigations. And according to the warrant, police accused Fotis of taking the truck to the car wash in Avon to get his truck detailed. The worker was asked to replace the seats and get rid of them. But that worker kept the originals without Fotis's knowledge and gave them the abilities to be examined. Lab results of the seats tested positive for Jennifer's blood.

And now Fotis has already been charged with tampering and hindering a prosecution. He's pled not guilty to those charges and will be in court in Norwalk on the 12th. You were just hearing more information regarding that Toyota Tacoma. We know that there are photos in the warrant in the area where Jennifer's abandoned Suburban was found. That Toyota Tacoma just happens to be where her abandoned Suburban is found. Photos show that Tacoma at a home owned by Dulos' construction company. The Tacoma seats test positive for Jennifer's blood. You are also hearing Fox 61 reporter Dave Puglisi. You just told me something I didn't know, Alexis Tereszczuk,

investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, I did not know he tried to keep the Tacoma from the employee and not give it back. And when the employee insisted, he gave it back minus the back seat. Now, did I get that right? He gave it back, but actually asked the employee to swap out the seats. And so he wanted the seats swapped out with the Toyota Tacoma. Do you know what kind of car seats he wanted them switched out with? His Porsche seats.

So I don't know how a Porsche backseat fits into a Toyota Tacoma, but I don't think it looks the same at all. Well, let me ask you a question. I thought I heard you say Fotis Dulos tried to keep the Tacoma. He did. Tell me about that because I guarantee you if Jennifer Dulos was in that car and her blood has been found on the seats, okay, he would probably, if I had killed somebody, I would go and torch the car. I wouldn't wait for it to get stolen on a busy street. I would torch it. I would get rid of it.

I would make it look like, not that I would ever do this, but make it look like it was stolen and then torch it. I didn't know he tried to keep the car, Alexis. That's what the employee said that he tried to keep it. And the employee said, no, I have to have it back. I need to have my car back. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. I love saying that to juries. I don't think it had the same effect on Daryl Cohen.

One more thing, Alexis Tereschuk, you told me, and I want you to explain this, because this is very critical, that the co-worker or the employee, whichever one he is, he's a work project manager of Dulos, story about the vehicle, the Tacoma, torpedoes. What does Dulos' first alibi, explain. Well, Fotis and his girlfriend are saying that they were together at home and that they had showered ago. She changed that. But the employee can then talk about when Fotis contacted him about the car and how he wanted to keep it. And so he has told investigators that this is something that was very, very, very unusual. This wasn't normally what he would do. And that's why he wanted the car back. He thought

it was so strange that he wanted to keep this car. And then he brought it back. But you're saying it ruined the alibi. How does that ruin Fotis Dulos' alibi? Because he said he was just home with Jennifer not doing anything, but it said he's out driving this car. How do you know he was driving the car at the time of the alibi? I mean, he could have just had the car parked at home. How does that ruin the alibi? Because he's then on the camera at the car wash. Ah, okay. Wait. All right. Hold on. There you go. It's not that Fotis Dulos called and wanted to keep the car. You're telling me that the time Dulos and Michelle Tricona say they're at home all loved up, they're spotted on video cleaning out the Toyota Tacoma. Is that correct? That's very critical,

Alexis. Is that right? Yes. To Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor in the same office where I learned to try cases, the Fulton County District Attorney's Office in inner city Atlanta, now defense attorney, Daryl Cohen. You know what juries love, Daryl? They love video. They love video. And when you put it to a jury, they say they're at home in their jammies having mimosas and waffles.

But instead, they're at Quick Clean detailing the employees' Tacoma at the car wash. Mmm. I hate to steal from McDonald's, but I'm loving it. Yeah, they did a great job there. You always tell a nice lie that video will show is a lie. As soon as you do that, juries love it. The more video evidence, the more DNA evidence,

the more I saw it happen evidence, the more they dig their grave even deeper. And we're just waiting for that arrest. Just waiting with bated breath. And Michelle Chacon is the lover.

Was it worth it? Was it worth dating a married man? With all the men in the world, you have to date a married man. That's nothing but problems. It ain't worth it, ladies. Michelle Triconis dates Fotis Dulos, and now she is being brought in for a third interview, a double arrest. Take a listen to Fox 61's Tony Terzi.

On August 13th, according to an arrest warrant released following Fotis Dulos' most recent arrest yesterday, state police conducted their third recorded interview with Traconis. Police say she admitted that during her two previous interviews, she lied. She allegedly told investigators during that August interview that she had not physically seen Fotis Dulos during the morning of May 24th, the day on which Dulos' estranged wife, Jennifer, was reported missing. But prior to this August interview, cops say she said that she and Dulos had showered together that morning. Also in August, Tricona said that on the afternoon of May 24th, she witnessed Dulos cleaning what he described as a coffee spill inside of an employee's 2001 Toyota

Tacoma, which police believe is the vehicle that Dulos used in the commission of the supposed crime. A shower with photos of Dulos. Ew. Why did I have to hear that detail? You know, it's little details like that, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney of the Atlanta jurisdiction, that come back to bite you in the neck. A shower. I can just see you think of all the bubble bath and the suds and the loofah, blah, blah. He's out detailing the blood out of the backseat of his employee's car. Anything but a shower. Water was involved, that's true, but it was at a car wash. Well, the car wash was certainly giving the shower credibility.

I knew you were going to say that. Just so you know, I knew you were going to say that. Just so you know, I knew you were going to say that. A different place for the shower. The car was taking a shower, not them. Why is it when you tell a lie, you know, I love it when defendants tell a lie, but it can't just be a lie. Oh, we were at home.

It has to be a really extravagant lie, rich in detail. We were at home and we were having a shower together. It was so romantic. And then we had tea in the backyard, watched the sun come. I mean, it goes on and on. I mean, it's not just a lie. It's a whopper, Daryl. Why do people do that? Because they forget that when you tell a lie, you have to remember what you said. And the more you lie, the more you have to remember, the more you have to concoct a story. And oh my gosh, did I say that? Oh, I guess I did.

So it never works. It just doesn't. I tell people all the time, don't tell a lie. Tell the truth. Just don't say anything. Right. Yeah. Just don't say anything. You know what, Nancy? K-Y-D-B-M-S. That means keep your damn big mouth shut. And if they had kept their mouth shut, life would have been just a little bit different. But we're going to see a little story here. Words to live by, Daryl Cohen. Words to live by. crime stories with nancy grace and when questioned about the towel doulos used that he asked her to throw away traconis admitted that the towel did not smell of coffee. The following week, when Dulos went to get his employee's truck detailed and washed at an Avon car wash,

Traconis initially allegedly told police he just called her to pick him up there. But when pressed during the August interview with surveillance photos, she admitted to following him to the car wash. And when Traconis was asked by investigators why she thought Dulos would be washing the Tacoma, her reply was, quote, Well, obviously, all of the evidence says because you showed me the picture of the blood in the door, it's because the body of Jennifer at some point was in there. Another fact we are just learning. You are hearing right there, Fox 61 reporter Tony Terzi, Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen, I just learned a new fact. The blood is not just on the back seat. The blood is on the door,

according to the girlfriend, and she's recounting what she sees in police photos. That gives me a really good idea of what happened. Explain. There is blood everywhere, Nancy. It's not just on the door. It's not just on the seat. It's in Jennifer Dulos' garage. And the way police described it in the affidavit was spatter. Not just a bloodstain, spatter. Spatter doesn't just happen. That is indicative of a violent event happening in that garage. Not only was it on the floor, not only was it on other surfaces, there was a second car parked in that garage and there was blood spatter on that car, which tells me that either a blunt force trauma event or possibly a gunshot, depending on the type of spatter that was found, that's what we're dealing with here. So you have the garage, you have the car in the garage, you have the Toyota Tacoma with the seats that were removed that had bloodstains on them. I'd like to know the type of bloodstains, how deep it went, how large the stain was, what type of bloodstain it was. Was it spatter? Was it a pooling? Was it a dripping?

All of those things. Plus you have the blood on the clothes that were found in trash cans and all of the other items in there as well. So we're dealing with lots and lots of blood in lots charge if she doesn't come clean and i mean totally clean back to you karen smith uh beer bones consulting forensics expert you have very carefully reviewed the facts as we know them now if you could recount where jennifer doulos a mom of five blood has been found they found blood they went to jenn Jennifer Dulos' house and they found they did DNA testing and they found her blood in the garage of her own rented home. They also did forensic testing and DNA testing on bloodstains found in the Toyota Tacoma pickup, the seats that were removed by the employee. That blood came back to Jennifer Dulos. They did forensic testing on Jennifer Dulos' 2017 Chevy Suburban that was abandoned, and the blood on the exterior and interior of that vehicle

came back to Jennifer Dulos. They did forensic testing on clothing and items found in bags that were deposited all over the place, and that blood as well, all came back to Jennifer Dulos. There's so much evidence in this case. It's incredible to me. You mentioned a second car in the garage. Yeah, there was apparently another car parked off to the side in the garage, and they found blood stains on that car, which tells me a violent event occurred, Nancy. Blood breaks up commensurate in size with the amount of force impacted upon it. So it doesn't, spatter doesn't just happen. A force has to create that

and it has to take more than one strike for it to be created. So that tells me and the police that a very violent event occurred in that garage that's likely the primary crime scene. Take a listen to CBS 2's Hazel Sanchez. The warrant states the owner of the borrowed truck went to police telling them Fotis Dulos and his girlfriend Michelle Traconis used his truck on the day Jennifer Dulos disappeared, then got it cleaned five days later without his permission. He also claimed Fotis Dulos insisted he swap out the truck seats. The warrant says a blood-like substance was found in the truck and when police asked Dulos' girlfriend why they had the truck cleaned, she allegedly answered, you showed me the picture of the blood in the door. It's because the body of Jennifer at some point was in there.

Police are revealing new theories and evidence. After Fotis Dulos, the estranged husband and his lover Michelle Chaconas were arrested for a second time in connection with the disappearance of Mama 5 Jennifer Dulos for a second time in the last days. Police arrest not only Fotis Dulos, but Michelle Triconis as well. Dulos is a luxury home builder. He was arrested at his Farmington home. Traconis, the girlfriend, turned herself into state police in Bridgeport when she found out there was another arrest coming down. They're both free after posting bond, and they are set to reappear in Superior Court in Stanford later this month. Now, there's a 43-page arrest affidavit and it outlines a host of evidence and theories

regarding Dulos's whereabouts the day Jennifer goes missing and attempts police say Dulos and Draconis made to get rid of evidence. To Daryl Cohen, what happens when you help get rid of evidence in a brutal murder? Well, I think that we're looking at Houdini because I think we're going to have a girlfriend that's going to change her spots. And because she's going to get a deal she is not going to be prosecuted for murder if not she's going down with her boyfriend that they can just go have a shower together in the state prison yeah it'll be a nice group shower behind bars you know using surveillance video and other evidence cops say doulos went to the wealthy enclave of New Canaan, and he went there that morning while his wife Jennifer was in drop-off.

They claim he was, quote, I'm quoting from the affidavit, lying in wait at 69 Wells Lane for his wife to return home. The last images of her shows Jennifer driving back home after dropping her children at school. That was on a neighbor's security camera home surveillance video at 8.05 a.m. Wow. Investigators are convinced a violent crime happened in Jennifer's home between 8.05 and 10.25. Why? Because Jennifer's Chevy Suburban was seen on surveillance camera leaving the home around 10.25 a.m. We're learning all this from the affidavit. So they see her going in at around 8.05, her vehicle leaving at 10.25. I just wonder, Karen Smith, if they can make out him driving the vehicle. That's going to take some doing, but apparently they have some really good footage of

him, not necessarily inside of that car, but they have footage of him inside the Toyota Tacoma at a bank, leaning out of the driver's window, and Michelle Draconis is in the passenger seat. That video is clear as day. He was inside that Toyota. He was at the bank getting money to pay for the car wash. So even though they might not be able to place his face inside of that vehicle driving away from her home,

there is so much other circumstantial evidence pointing directly to these two. I don't know how they're going to get around it. You know, I realized this, Alexis Torres, ChuckRaderOnline.com, when we were covering the Sarah Stern case. And I was speaking, you know, the teen that goes missing from New England and her so-called best friends had murdered her to steal her mom's money. The mom had left her about $10,000. And I found out you could see her car coming in and out of her house through the neighbor's surveillance, but you couldn't see who was driving it. And I'm wondering if that's true here, Alexis.

It seemed like the police, well, the police have said they believe he was driving it, but I don't think that you can actually see who was driving. It might be the angle of the camera in the neighbor's house. So just you cannot see the driver, but you can see the car. And, you know, even if so, let's say fast forward, you know, she never comes out of this house again and she never shows up anywhere else again. So somebody did something bad to her and it was most likely this ex-husband. Well, they say, just as you say, Alexis, correctly, the affidavit says, quote, Dulos is believed to be operating Jennifer's vehicle,

and that that vehicle is carrying Jennifer's body and other items associated with the cleanup, which occurred in the garage of that residence. And of course, Karen Smith, forensics expert, they can look with luminol and see if there's a cleanup of blood. Absolutely. To me, it sounds like if there was spatter, they didn't get it all. Nancy, you and I know you're not going to get every drop of blood outside of a crime scene. You're not going to clean it all up. You're going to miss something. And somebody with a keen eye and something as simple as a magnifying glass, we're going to find it. I would crack my knuckles to get inside that garage because I would find it. And I know the police did too.

Absolutely. Well, another piece of evidence we've totally overlooked. I'm drinking from a fire hydrant here. There's too much too fast. Cellular data, according to the affidavit, shows Jennifer's phone moving from Wells Lane to Lapham Road, where her car was found abandoned during that 1025 a.m. time period, which means she had her cell phone with her in the car when she dropped her children off, and it was still in the car. And her killer didn't know that, and the cell phone traveled with the car to where her car was abandoned. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.