Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ‘I Just Need to Die,’ Nashville School Shooter Tells Instagram Friend Minutes Before Shooting Begins

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

A female shooter shot through the glass doors of a church school to gain access to the building. After breaking the glass, the shooter crawled through the lower portion of the door.  The 28-year-old transgender person is seen pacing the hallway, heavily armed, as alarms are blaring. Six people were killed; three 9-year-old students and three faculty members. Police storm the building, then exchanged fire with Audrey Hale. Hale was killed. A manifesto was recovered, as was a map of the school detailing camera locations and surveillance entry points.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Jason Oshins – New York Defense Attorney Dr. Teresa Gil - Professor of Psychology and Psychotherapist (over 25 years working with child abuse and trauma victim) and Author: "Women Who Were Sexually Abused as Children: Mothering, Resilience, and Protecting the Next Generation" Ken Trump - School Security Expert and Consultant, President of National School Safety and Security Services; Author: “Proactive School Security and Emergency Preparedness Planning;" Twitter: @safeschools   Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference  Leonard Romero - Forensic Firearms Examiner and Ballistics Expert Payton Muse - Fox 17 Nashville Reporter; Twitter/Facebook: @PaytonMuseTV   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Listen to these chilling words. I'm planning to die today. You'll probably hear about me on the news. The final chilling words by Audrey Hale, her final messages before she shoots up a private Christian school, taking the lives of many, including little children. Yes, the school included elementary grade children. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I'm planning to die today. You'll probably hear about me in the news.

So before these little children are murdered by yet another school shooter, she's anticipating, Audrey Hale is anticipating being in the headlines. Let's start at the beginning where every case starts with dispatch. Listen. They've got a description male white camo and they're actually hearing gunfire be advised to stay out of the general area of burton hills road hillsborough pike to find back the shooter metro midtown is on a school shooting fourth of multiple victims down we are training the show radio traffic at this time unknown which school or where they're transporting but it sounds like there's multiple victims down. We aren't hearing that show radio traffic at this time. I don't know which school or where they're transporting, but it sounds like there's multiple victims down inside the school.

Shooter is down now as well. Multiple victims down. They will be sending them to VUH, VCH. At this time, all radio traffic will be kept to a minimum except for emergency situations only. Can you imagine what's running through their minds as they realize the address they're giving out is this little Christian school full of children? Let's go straight to body cam. Listen. Just an update. It's going to be first floor main lobby. I'll make an entry on the front side.

I got a facility in my corner. You're here. okay yes give me give me three let's get three joining me right now, special guest Peyton Muse from Fox 17, Nashville reporter with Fox17.com. Peyton, thank you for being with us. I can only imagine what the officers are going through at that moment, going all the way through the building, trying to find the shooter who ultimately kills so many, including little children.

How did the whole thing start, Peyton Muse? So at 10.13 in the morning, we were told Metro Police received a call about an active shooter inside the Covenant School. And if you don't know, the Covenant School is in a suburban neighborhood. It is a very nice, quiet part of Nashville. It's in the Green Hills area. And officers entered the first

story of the school, began clearing it right away. Officers heard those gunshots from the second level, and that's when the shooter was also shooting at police. 10.13 in the morning. I mean, you know, frankly, straight out to Jason Oceans, veteran trial lawyer across the country now located in New York. Jason, you don't think of violent crimes happening at 10 o'clock in the morning because statistically they don't, except for school shootings. Well, that's correct. School shootings happen sometime early. The anticipatory actions of the shooter relative to, you know, engaging do start early for some reason. Yeah, you know, because they know that's when all the children are there. They're all there starting at 730 in the morning. It's amazing how many school shooters strike in the morning, unlike all other crimes which happen much later in the day or in the cover

of darkness. Guys, I want you to listen to our cut one. Chief John Drake from the National PD. At 10.13 today, officers responded to a shots fired call to Covenant School. It's a church school. Officers immediately responded team of five immediately went in the school went to where gunshots were being heard and engaged the suspect we have identified the suspect right now tentatively a 28-year-old female white. So, guys, almost immediately, we understand who the suspect is,

28-year-old Audrey Aiden Hale. And the shocker is, Peyton Mews joining me from Fox 17, Hale actually went to Covenant School. Do I have that right? Yes, you do. They said that they believe that she went to Covenant School. Do I have that right? Yes, you do. They said that they believe that she went to the school. Police confirmed that. They are not too sure for how long or when she went to the school,

but that is something that Metro Police did confirm. You know, I'm just curious, and I want to go to another special guest joining us, Dr. Teresa Gill, professor of psychology and psychotherapist. Dr. Gill, if you go to, I mean, I wonder, I wondered immediately why target a small Christian school, but really why target any school? But in this case, we find out that Sheeter actually attended the school. Well, when they talked to one of her classmates that she attended school with, they interviewed her on the news,

and she said that she was given a text message that I'm going to kill myself today. You will have more than enough information about why I'm doing what I'm doing, and it will make more sense in time. So I'm not quite sure it's all conjecture at this point, talking about the manifesto or journal that she left, and I think that's going to detail much more. I don't know if that's a part of if she felt socially isolated, if she felt condemned by others, if she didn't feel part

of the group? What was the anger or the rage that made her go back to the school and target the teachers and the children there? To Ken Trump, joining me, President of National School Safety and Security Services and author of Proactive School Security and Emergency Preparedness Planning. And boy, do we need you now. According to all the sources, Covenant School said all their doors were closed and locked. But I find that really hard to believe because how did the shooter get in? And this again is a school she attended, which makes me wonder if she knew about some entrance that the rest of us don't know. Again, the name Audrey now Aiden Hale.

What do you think, Ken Trump? I think that there's obviously some grievance, something that attracted her to that particular school. With regard to the time of day, yes, school shootings do happen earlier in the morning. Sometimes at breakfast, as kids arrive at 9.30, by 10.30, 10 o'clock, maybe up to 11, they're actually starting school lunch period. So you tend to have more movement around. As far as the building itself, reports say that the building, the doors were locked and possibly uh confirmed that they have she shot out the glass out of the door and stepped through we saw that similar pattern in sandy hook i served as an expert witness on the civil litigation on the defense for sandy hook

inspected that building prior to it being taken down. It was not the entrance doorway, but the glass next to that, and then step through that. What I did hear in that video of the officer's body cam is school people were outside immediately feeding information that they knew, albeit limited to those officers. So that was certainly helpful as well. But it sounds like that there was some detailed planning, possibly some surveillance of that area, certainly some diagrams of maps and doors where there was some planning involved. Absolutely, Ken Trump. And you're right. The school does say they had all the doors closed and locked. She did blow out, shoot out glass and go through the glass. And I'm referring to Audrey Aiden Hale, age 28, who actually attended Covenant School.

Why target this school? Why target little children, children so young, having no idea what was going on? Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here. Join us now on Fox Nation for our brand new special Children of Serial Killers, a Nancy Grace investigation. Parents by day, killers by night. But what about the sons and daughters of brutal murderers? Are they forever haunted by their parents' crimes? What happens when they find out mommy or daddy's a killer?

In this new special, we investigate the lives of children of serial killers, weaving the timelines of the parents' crimes into their home lives, speaking directly with sons and daughters of serial killers, including the children of the Craigslist killer, the chameleon killer, and more. We hear from experts in the field. Don't miss this. Join us now for Children of Serial Killers, a Nancy Grace investigation streaming exclusively on Fox Nation. Go to foxnation.com to watch. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace i want to go to peyton muse joining me fox 17 speaking of what ken trump just said regarding maps and planning apparently maps, even a written manifesto regarding what they were doing have been found.

But what can you tell me about these maps and these plans? So, so far, we know that there was maps drawn out of the school in detail of surveillance regarding the Covenant School. And apparently their teacher said yesterday that there is a second location that the shooter was contemplating going to, but there was too much surveillance there. We don't know that second location. They have not provided that, but decided, Hale decided to go to the Covenant School because she knew there was less surveillance there. Guys, take a listen to our friends at Fox 11. The suspect shoots through a side door in this surveillance video released by Nashville police. Then you can see the person identified by police as Audrey Hale step through the door to begin her rampage.

Later, the 28-year-old is seen pacing the hallway, heavily armed, as alarms are blaring. Hale enters the church office and then eventually heads towards another door. We then see Hale walking past the children's ministry. Police say the shooter was a former student at the school. So this is a very familiar area for the shooter. The shooter went to school here. The shooter knows the layout. They understand how to get from floor to floor in the easiest manner.

Which room to visit first. Where all the students are. Where the teachers are at that time of the morning. This was like shooting a fish in a barrel once the shooter got in by shooting out glass and then just stepping through. Very difficult to believe that this shooter could get in with all the doors closed and locked. But apparently the shooter knew this and managed to find a way listen to more photos show the desperation and pain in the faces of this tight-knit christian community some parents communicating with their kids during the lockdown i'm still

telling him son just be aware of your surroundings we don't not sure if it's just one shooter you know how to get out the building you know these are conversations we shouldn't be having we're failing our children we're learning more about the victims killed including this woman dr katherine kunz was the head of the covenant school those who knew her say she died protecting the children she loved. Joining me, a ballistics expert, firearms examiner. You can find Leonard Romero at ballisticsfirearmsexpert.com. Leonard, thank you for being with us. What do you make of all the weapons that Hale carried in? Oh, she was heavily armed, and you could see that.

And that rig that she had on. Describe the rig the shooter had on it basically is uh um you it allows you to carry the rifle uh at your side so you can bring it up very quickly and it also allows you to carry that ar type pistol and also uh has ammunition pouches so that you could go ahead and carry additional magazines in it. I mean, wait a minute, wait a minute. You've got to slow down for me, Leonard Romero. I mean, it's like the shooter is dressed up like Rambo.

Yep. To go in and gun down babies, little children, and some school teachers it's like the shooter's like gonna crawl through the jungle and experience some type of uh attack some ambush oh yes i mean she's totally ready i mean outfitted for like you said some sort of battle it's horrific to think that's how she's thinking what's interesting too are the markings or the stickers that are on the firearms themselves explain one of the firearms had hell riser or something uh written on it i meant so i meant yeah she was totally outfitted for combat you know which is you know so disturbing the way she was just rigged up with all of that uh ammunition and all those

weapons you know that's a very powerful around that 223 round describe tell me about the 223 the 223 is a rifle round it's a small bullet that travels at an extremely high velocity um it was used during the vietnam war still used in the military now it's a very popular round with shooters because it's very light to carry so you can carry a lot of ammunition with you um so um but it's it's an extremely powerful rifle round and then of, she had that 9mm pistol as well from the photos that I reviewed and all. But, I mean, yeah, she was totally loaded down with a lot of ammunition. To go into the elementary area of a tiny little Christian school that the shooter had actually attended. You know, it would be like me going into my little church back home in Macon, Georgia, the Liberty United Methodist Church.

I can tell you every nook and cranny of that church, growing up in that church. So this is what it was like for the shooter. To just imagine those first steps, Jason Ocean. Think about it, Jason. Think about your synagogue and your children that have been there over and over and over. It's by memory. You could close your eyes and walk down the halls.

I mean, it has its own special smell to it. I remember I took the children to my church back home so many times. They said, why does the Methodist church everywhere you go smell the same? And my daughter said, because God's in the carpet. That's a good one. He's actually in the carpet. I mean, you could close your eyes and walk through, right?

And imagine the shooter shooting out the glass and that first step in to the little church that Hale knew so well. Well, there's an intimacy as we're talking about. She knew that very, very well. The shooter has a great intimate knowledge of the surroundings. And even as she's walking, it seems that there was a calmness because she knew where she was going. And so that allowed her to tactically have an advantage. Whoa, wait.

Tactically have an advantage over what? The nine-year-olds? Versus entering a building you're unfamiliar with. So that gave her an advantage. She had that edge of knowing where she was going versus turning the wrong way, entering a building you're unfamiliar with and you make the wrong move. She knew, the shooter knew exactly what she was doing. Nancy, Ken Trump. Jump in, Ken, because when I just said nine-year-olds, wrong move she knew the shooter knew exactly what she was doing nancy ken trump jump in kim because when we i just said nine-year-olds i thought about my twins at nine years old so innocent so trusting and really they still are because i sat i know it's wrong and i'm raising them in a bubble or

trying to but these little children had no idea what was coming but they were afraid kim because many of them were hiding hiding in closets hiding under desks they knew something horrible was happening any school shooting is is horrible but when it touches the youngest it's it just it's even more difficult and harder to process but for the physical environment you're talking about we do security and emergency planning assessment in school for the last three decades. Every setting is different, independent schools, public schools, Christian schools, but those schools that are attached, whether they're Catholic, Christian, other types of schools that have a place of worship and they're attached there,

you run into some unique issues depending on the design. You have legitimate users during the course of the day coming into the facility for worshiping purposes. You have ministry purposes going on. And then you have the education component. So the question is, is there a way to separate access control to that wing into that section but in this case as you've said walking through the one area into the other we always have to take a look at is there some additional barrier that you can put to have them

still connected in the same facility as part of that unique environment, but at the same time where access to them can't just immediately be gained. But when you've got somebody who's shooting out the glass, you have a whole different dynamic coming into play. But just the idea of in a place of worship, having the educational piece, the school in there, sometimes we find that there's a very thin line between those functions, those different sections, and that creates some additional security concerns. With an assault

style rifle in hand, Hale shoots down the door of the Nashville Area School, stalking the hallways before opening fire on nine-year-olds and administrators. And at first, as I said, I found it so hard to believe the school just wasn't doing their job because they must not have had the doors closed and locked. They did. The shooter guns their way into the facility to gun down little children. Dr. Tim Gallagher, joining me, renowned medical examiner for the

entire state of Florida, also lectures University of Florida Medical School, and is the founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, I'd like to believe the children didn't feel anything. That's how I always, you know, explain it in my head. They didn't feel anything. But truth is, they probably did well the automatic weapons uh when they strike the body as the other um panelists said it's a very small round but it travels at a very fast velocity so the entrance wound in the human body is very small but the exit wound is tremendous you know and through the exit wound goes a lot of the organs, the blood, the

bone, and the tissue, you know, so it depends on where the person was struck. If they were struck in vital organs, they may not have felt anything. Their death would have been so immediate, you know, before they can feel the effects of the bullets on them. So you know in this case i don't have any information as to where they were struck but they were pronounced deceased when they arrived at a medical facility you know i'm interested in this manifesto the shooter wrote i'm looking at a picture right now it's as if the shooter has decided to go commando, I expect to see the shooter just swinging down from a tree like she's fighting the Viet Cong in the Vietnamese War. Dressed in camo, cap on backwards, I guess what, to keep hair out of the eyes to make sure you get a good shot at a nine-year-old and as you heard our ballistics expert Leonard Romero speaking she's wearing somewhat of a sling on her on the left side and saying she this is actually a female

transitioning into male Audrey Hale age 28 wearing a sling on her left side because they I guess want to have as much ammo as possible to gun down let's see seven eight nine the third graders guys what do we know about Audrey Hale take a listen to our cut 32 this police chief John Drake the person we know is Audrey Hale, she's a 28-year-old Nashvilleian. We have belief or we feel this very strongly that she went to school here in the Nashville area and she went to that actual school. And so there's some belief that there was some resentment for having to go to that school. Don't have all the details of that just yet. And that's why this incident occurred. Resentment over having to, quote, go to that school.

And a lot has been made that Audrey Hale is a female transitioning to a male. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the shooter is male or female transitioning, not transitioning. This shooter killed three nine-year-olds plus gunned down administrators as well. Administrators dedicated to teaching children. And now we learn of some freaky manifesto. It reminds me of the Unabomber to Dr. Teresa Gill. Do you remember the Unabomber? I hate to even say it to Kaczynski's name. So full of himself, so pompous that he had to leave a manifesto much as this shooter. A clear, detailed account of what they were thinking and feeling and what they were planning

and based in rage and righteousness. So we will see what comes out of her manifesto. Gunning down so many people, including three nine-year-old children. What more do we know? Take a listen to Director Don Aaron at the Nashville PD. She entered the building, which is one structure. The church and the school are in one building. She entered on the lower floor. There were shots fired on the lower floor before she went to the upper level, and it was on the upper level where she was confronted by police and killed. So understand the scene processing will take place over at least two days, today and tomorrow,

and we'll have more details for you, including the release of video perhaps tonight but if not tonight certainly tomorrow we know that the Nashville school shooter was an artist and that she had copious notes regarding the shooting a lot of drawings it makes me realize Peyton me is joining me Fox, it's very unlikely they knew any of the victims. Well, we know Metro Police Chief John Drake had mentioned that they were not sure whether or not Hale knew any of the victims. I know they were not able to confirm whether or not there was any kind of connection that she had with the victims meaning the children and or the staff maybe maybe Peyton may be the top administrator but unlikely the substitute teacher and unlikely the custodian depending on how long the sub and the custodian had been there

had they been there since the inception of the school? Were they there when the shooter went there? I mean, the shooter's 28. Had to be a while back that the shooter went there. So are you saying, Peyton, we're still trying to get any connection, if any, between the shooter and the victims? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying Nancy here I know Metro Police they told me earlier there there's so much information and so much material that they have to go through that they still have to go through right now and hopefully later today we'll get more on the manifesto more on whether or not there's a connection with those victims and these shooters. You know Jason Oceans another thing to consider is that the mother of the shooter was very anti-gun and wanted gun control and had many posts

decrying school shootings is this some way of lashing out at the shooter's mother but isn't this extreme don't you think jason oceans you're angry because you had to go to a certain school so you could shoot it up like a mad person? Yeah, clearly high level of disturbance and doesn't know if, you know, I don't think we know yet whether, you know, the manifesto will create some of the answers that we're seeking. Mother's stricture regarding guns, the angry at school, angry at, angry at you know whatever the anger is that allowed her to uh uh you know to to create this uh you know tragedy i'm looking at something dr teresa gill professor of psychology and psychotherapist of some of the shooters art and i definitely use quotas for that one that really intrigued me is a child's tennis shoes underneath PJs and socks looking up at the sky.

And it says, to be a kid forever and ever. What does that mean? That's really interesting. I think she's quite bright. She did well in college. She did well in school. But they have difficulty with initiating social interactions and managing successful responses and social situations. However, they have difficulty making eye contact, keeping on pace with communication with other people.

And men, although they have difficulties in those areas, They are extremely sensitive. Well, apparently this shooter did not have those difficulties because high school friends of Hale's were shocked to find out Hale was the shooter. They described her as an outgoing girl that they ran track with. That really doesn't sound like someone that can't make friends. One of the things she loved to do was to run around in the playground. So my sense is that there's this kid-like person in there. You could say that about Michael Jackson too. What does that mean to me? Nothing. You continue to say nine-year-old, nine-year-old. Any perpetrator, because I've dealt with victims for 30 plus years, any perpetrator will pick out the most vulnerable because those are the ones that they can be hurtful to and direct their rage on. And so, of course, nine-year-olds

and, you know, K through sixth grade and people who are in their 60s that do not have weapons, that would be the first place to go. In fact, she had another place that she was intending to go to that she decided not to because it was too heavily surveilled. So she did what most perpetrators do and she picked the most vulnerable. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Leonard Romero and Dr. Tim Gallagher. First, to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, you and I discussed, did the children feel anything or were they killed instantly? They suffered fear, Dr. Gallagher, because the other classmates were the ones that survived,

were all hiding in closets and under desks anywhere they could hide. So these children were most likely hiding as well. They knew something was horribly wrong. Somebody had to tell them there was a danger. They were crouching around the school and then they had to see the shooter coming toward them and feel extreme fear. I mean, if you are still conscious when you get, when you sustain a gunshot wound, tell us what that feels like. This is what these little third graders experienced. Right. Well, they were under a lot of emotional turmoil here. Of course, there was the fear. But one thing I noticed in the video was that there was a light flashing as though it was like the fire alarm. And when we were in school, anytime we heard the fire alarm, we got up, walked through the halls, and we left.

So now these children are being inundated by very mixed signals. There's the fire alarm. It's time to get up and go. And then someone else telling them most likely, no, there's, it's not a fire alarm. Instead of leaving, stay in the building, you know, and hide yourself. You know, so they were going through several orders of emotion there. But yes, when you do suffer a fatal wound, it has been, or a fatal wound it has been or a serious wound uh the fear is there but then as the strength leaves the body the people tend to develop a sense of peace a sense of acceptance and a sense of uh this is my fate i'm probably not going to survive this i don't know if a child

would think that that um rationally well i i you're right and we're dealing with nine-year-olds here and to tell you the truth there's really not a lot of experience in this age category with this type of um a weaponry with this type of injury you know um when they do occur they occur in in clusters and then very spaced from each other so it's very hard to collect this type of information you know but i i could imagine them you know wanting their parents you know wanting their friends not not wanting to be alone and then the shooting itself tearing through their body but the shooter just kept going to little romero uh ballistics expert what would this particular caliber bullet do to a body for instance there

are hollow points that do a certain thing there there there's uh bullets that mushroom inside your body what do these bullets do like uh the good doctor alluded to earlier um it's a small caliber bullet that's coming in at a high speed so in my experience the wounds are devastating that i've seen that have where a person's been shot with the 223 um so it's coming in at quite a high speed and again uh it depends where the person was shot kind of just to add a point with regards to the fear this is an extremely loud ground. When you fire these things, it's very loud. And scary.

And scary, exactly. So I'm here, you know, with everything else going on, the flashing of the light and everything else, couple that with the sound. I mean, it just, it had been horrific for these poor people, you know. And of course, we it's become a political football like everything else is. And I want everyone to take a listen to what our president said immediately after these people were gunned down dead, including third graders and their teachers, their custodian, their administrator. Look, I hate politics. I don't trust Republicans or Democrats. But I especially want you to hear what our president had to say in our cut five. My name is Joe Biden.

I'm Dr. Joe Biden's husband. And I ate Jenny's ice cream, chocolate chip. I came down because I heard there was chocolate chip ice cream by the way I have a whole refrigerator full upstairs I think I'm kidding no I'm not Ben how are you pal one of the best guys in the United States Congress Ben Cardin folks uh welcome to the white house what is wrong with him seriously what is wrong with him jason ocean is my longtime friend and colleague you know i i hate politics i think everybody in politics for the most part not all of them are all lying just to get reelected. But what is that? Why did I have to hear that?

How do you think those children's parents feel when they see him trot out, if he can find his way to the podium, that is, and say that? Yeah, that was callous relative to the message that he's going to talk about. It's just so inappropriate. You've got to know that there's a hot mic there at all times, and it just doesn't connect to the messaging after really horrible timing. Just horrible to come out and say that when people are looking for leadership and help, and that's what we get. You know what?

That's a whole get. You know what? That's a whole nother can of worms. But I want to talk about the two officers. They gun down the shooter. Peyton Muse, tell me about it. Nancy, one other thing I wanted to tell you. There was no this private school did not require and they did not have an SRO on their campus. Two brave officers managed to take down the shooter. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. Authorities say the shooter was armed with these guns, two assault style rifles and a handgun, two of which were obtained legally and locally. The first about eight or ten shots were very loud. Police say when the tactical team of five officers arrived, the shooter began firing at them from a second floor window, hitting their cruisers.

There's multiple victims down inside the school. The shooter is down now as well. 14 minutes after that first call, at 1027, these two officers, Rex Engelbert and Michael Collazo, confronting and killing the shooter. Rex Engelbert and Michael Palazzo. Straight back out to Peyton Mews. Where did they find the shooter and gun the shooter down? So from the video, what I saw, I know they found the shooter on the second floor. And Rex Engelbert, Officer Engelbert, is a four-yearyear MMP veteran and then Michael Collazo is a nine-year veteran. The two of them found her on the second floor. I want to circle back to Ken Trump,

president of a National School Safety and Security Services. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Now Peyton Mews is telling me, and she's correct, that the school did not have a resource officer there. I don't know that that would have made a difference. They didn't have metal detectors. I don't think that would have made a difference since the shooter would have known about them having attended there and also managed to sidestep that by shooting their way in. But what could schools do? Help us, Ken Trump. Metal detector or weapons detection system with artificial intelligence isn't going to prevent or even intervene in the incident that happened in Nashville. Most private schools do not have school resource officers.

They're public officers through law enforcement agencies that are assigned traditionally to public schools. They do have, in a number of the private schools we've assessed security for, off-duty officers, a cadre of their own force in some, but not all so that's a tool because that would cut down even tighter on response time if an officer is there and able to engage on that the officers here did a tremendous job uh it seems like forever if you're in the midst of that but they move quickly the video shows them doing what training since Columbine in 99 shows them to do which you can go directly to the shooter but we saw a couple of other key things. The school had trained students to lock down. Some schools and some law enforcement are now training to self-evacuate to run. But you create a target rich environment.

You want to limit your availability for someone who's trying to take out people as many as they can as quickly as they can. So good job on the lockdown. Good job on relaying information to that officer. for someone who's trying to take out people as many as they can as quickly as they can. So good job on the lockdown. Good job on relaying information to that officer. Bottom line is this, Nancy. I have done expert witness work on the highest profile mass school shootings in this country. And while the facts and merits vary on those and other crimes at school, allegations of failures focus on allegations of failures of human factors,

people, policies, procedures, training, plans, lockdowns, all the drill, communications, not failures of hardware and equipment. Having that state of mind to have your children locked down, limit the access to the shooter as best you possibly can, certainly save lives having someone they're relaying information to those heroic police officers who moved to the sound of the gunfire which is what they're trained to do for two three decades now is something that is critical the tree questions here bottom

line on this end on the, were there warning signs? Are we encouraging people to report if there were? And what are the grievances that people have? We don't know for sure, but it may not be a grievance that they had against the individuals in that building at that time. But it's some type of a grievance, as the chief alluded to, about the school itself. You know, Jason Oceans, by the way, we'll put Ken Trump while you're the expert. Jason Oceans, you know, at first, my first thought was, wow, they didn't have the doors locked. Well, of course, we all know how the shooter got in.

The doors didn't matter. Did they have sensors to set off alarms? No. Would it have made a difference? No. They didn't have a resource officer. Did they have sensors to set off alarms? No. Would it have made a difference? No. They didn't have a resource officer. Would that have made a difference? Probably not.

They didn't have a metal detector. The shooter sidestepped that by shooting their way in. I mean, I think we look for some way to have avoided it, to have avoided the whole thing. But I don't think there is one except what Trump just said, and that is trying to see the red flags waving in front of us. Nancy, I think examining social media, being more attentive to that are the keys. A lot of times these manifestos, you know, are published and having resource in our local PD that is scouring this relentlessly and having programs. Are you kidding me, Jason Oceans? Seriously? Local PD can hardly answer all the calls they get, much less take somebody off the street to look at the internet in a perfect world yeah but no government

will give them money to do that that's not gonna happen i understand that i i think that's where the initial it's all good intel that's where you know uh government authorities find uh the bad guys and i mean look at the parkland shooting. People kept calling police. He's going to, he's going to shoot up a school. He's going to shoot up a school. And lo and behold, he did shoot up the school. Everybody knew it was going to happen. I guess I'm angry right now because there's three little children dead, three adults dead because of this shooter. So full of hate. And I can't help but wonder, did the shooter's family have any warning?

We wait as the facts unfold. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.