Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO SLAY SUSPECT BRYAN KOHBERGER 'ALIBI' WITNESS???

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Brian Kohberger is facing an important hearing date in April, the reveal of new information on his alibi. Prosecutors asked last month for more information from Kohberger's legal team on a possible alibi.  Judge John Judge, set an April 17th deadline for Kohberger's legal team to provide documents relating to an alibi. Last year, at least two possible alibis were set out by Kohberger's attorney. The first saying... it was Kohberger’s habit to go for long drives, alone, late at night.  Defense attorney Anne Taylor later gave the court brief information saying, "Evidence corroborating Mr. Kohberger being at a location other than the King Road address will be disclosed pursuant to discovery and evidentiary rules as well as statutory requirements."  That location has not been revealed.  Could there now be an actual witness? Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tara Malek – Bosie, ID, Attorney & Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; X: @smith_malek Dr. John Delatorre –  Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; X, IG, and TikTok – @drjohndelatorre Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, & Host of YouTube channel, “The Interview Room” Dr. Michelle DuPre – Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff’s Department; Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;” Forensic Consultant Maureen Callahan - Columnist for the DailyMail.com; X: @DM_Maureen_  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The trial judge is putting Brian Koberger's feet to the fire saying, so what is your alibi? What is your fake alibi? Who said that? What is your alibi? Now, notice of alibi is due. The state is asking, could you be a little more specific than he's just wandering around town? And the defense is now alluding to the fact they have witnesses that place Brian Koberger somewhere completely different than the crime scene on King Road, where four beautiful young University of Idaho students are slaughtered in their own beds. Where?

Where is he at 3 a.m.? I can't wait to hear this. Witnesses? What witnesses? As I've told many a jury, nothing good happens after midnight. So where is Koberger going to tell us he was at 3 a.m. at the time of the murders. And what witnesses are going to bail him out of four murder one charges? So you want to tell me that's not where he was at 3 a.m. waiting to make his entrance into this home under the cloak of darkness?

Because I say that's exactly where he was. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. First of all, what is a judge looking for? Will they even respond or will somehow Koberger's defense team wiggle out of yet another judicial command. Listen to Nicole Parton, Crime Online. Judge John Judge set an April 17th deadline for Kohlberger's legal team to provide documents related to an alibi.

Last year, at least two possible alibis were set out by Kohlberger's attorney. The first saying it was Kohlberger's habit to go for long drives alone late at night. Defense attorney Ann Taylor later gave the court brief information saying, quote, evidence cooperating Mr. Kohlberger being at a location other than the King Road address will be disclosed pursuant to discovery and evidentiary rules as well as statutory requirements, unquote. The location has not been revealed.

Joining me now, an all-star paneler makes sense of what we know right now. First to Maureen Callahan with DailyMail.com, an author of Ask Not, The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed. Oh, you're going to need a volume two for that, Maureen Callahan. But that said, back to Koberger. What? Alibi. Alibi, my rear end. I can't wait to hear this. Okay, and the judge is basically ordering them because under the law, and I'm going to get with Tara Malik about that, a high profile lawyer in that jurisdiction about, hey, you can't, the defense can't say, oh yeah, I've got an alibi.

No, no, no. Notice of alibi has to be more specific so the state will be prepared to respond. I mean, of course, I'm going to go to deletory in a moment. What kind of alibi is that? Creepy dude driving around and around and around in circles at 3 a.m. Uh-uh. They got to come up with something better than that. But to you, Maureen Callahan, tell me what's happening. Koeberger is now being forced to hand over, fork over an alibi. That's got to hurt. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, it strains credulity that this guy who is on trial for one of the most savage murders of this young century, seemingly so random, so brutal, is taking about two years to come up with an alibi witness in what is, you know, the trial of his life. It also strains credulity. You know, in a post 9-11 world, we live in a 24-7 surveillance state. Whether or not he left his phone at home or left it off, his car was spotted on surveillance cams.

Blood with a 99.99998% chance of belonging to a biological male not in his bloodline was found at the crime scene he was stalking at least one of these victims on instagram well before the murders he was spotted driving around the house well before the murders he had broken into a female friend's house before the murders as a pretext to install digital cameras to spy on her. When he went home after the murders, around the holidays, even his own family, including notably his sister, began to suspect that he had done it and went and searched his car, which they were surprised a little, to find had been thoroughly scrubbed with bleach. I mean, you know, the mountain of evidence is substantial.

So it's an insult to a jury that will hear this case to say it has taken so very long to unearth this most crucial witness. You know what? I'm stealing everything you just said, all of it, because it's all right. And I especially like the turn of phrase you use. It strains credibility. B.S. Let's break it down. They're lying. That's what it is, an outright lie. But I like the way that you said that. It strains credibility. You know, I want to talk about everything that she just said, because right now the judge in the Brian Koberger murder trials has demanded that the defense hand over their alibi. Now, to you, Tara Malik, high profile lawyer joining us out of that jurisdiction. You can find her at Smith Malik dot com. I still think your name should be first. But that said, Tara Malick, as we all that they cannot hold any of that, particularly the defendant's right to remain silent against the defendant.

And they have to agree to that. Typically, they do during voir dire or jury selection, which coincidentally means to speak the truth. So, Tara Malik, since the defense does not have to say anything, then how is it? And put it in a nutshell, how is it the judge could say, hand over your alibi now? How does that happen? They seem to be in direct contradiction. Well, Koberger, you're exactly right, did not have to say anything. And he certainly didn't have to present an alibi. He decided he wanted to. And what is just incredible in this situation is that it's not a typical alibi where you would say something like, I was at Mr. Smith's house, you know, from two in the morning until noon the next day. What they said instead was,

I'd like to take drives at night where, you know, what does that do? What it does is corroborate part of the state's case here, which is he was not home and he was in an unknown location. So now instead of having to prove that Goberger was not in fact home, all they have to prove is, well, he's already admitted folks that he was out for a drive somewhere and they just have to shore up that last little bit that where he was going and where he ended up was this house. Okay. So let me understand this. Chris McDonough, Chris McDonough, I found Chris McDonough on the interview room on YouTube. He's got his own channel. And I can't remember what search I put in, but it was late at night. It was like one o'clock in the morning. I'm still awake researching Koberger. I hadn't

been to the crime scene yet. It's just before I had gone. And I found McDonough, I think with Honey, his wife, but he was in a car driving about literally two miles an hour. And it was perfect because they were pointing out here is just, for instance, the Exxon station. Here's that. And if you go forward and you turn left, you go up a hill and it's very concentrated and the streets are very narrow. And it was if I was driving through the neighborhood myself. And as a matter of fact, that quick check or whatever that gas station was on the corner turned out to be, I doubt that Chris McDonough knew it at the time that he showed us turned out

to be critical because a clerk, and I think it was a female clerk, took it upon herself voluntarily to go through days and days, painstakingly, of video surveillance and catches a white Elantra speeding by that little gas station at about three o'clock in the morning. Bam! That was a huge piece of evidence. And I had actually seen it on a drive along, a virtual drive along with Chris McDonough. And the moment I got out there, I couldn't wait to meet up with Chris to find out everything he knew. Now, I want to ask you, Chris McDonough, you go on a drive about, which means you had nowhere else to be at two, three, four o'clock in the morning.

That was some drive, wasn't it, from his place that coincidentally led him to the crime scene at King Road at the time that they were murdered, right? That's quite the bad luck for him, right? The coincidence. And then we were hearing Maureen Callahan with DailyMail.com describing that he did. She either said didn't have his phone or didn't have it turned on. He is pinging a distance away from the house and takes a long circuitous route back home. And I timed it myself, Chris, as I'm sure you've done, took me over an hour to get from the crime scene all the way back to Washington State University, where he was in school getting his Ph.D. An hour. But if he had taken the normal route, it would have been about eight minutes. What a coincidence that he happens to place himself with his own alibi, much like Scott Peterson.

Yeah, I was at the marina where her body washed up. I was there the day she went missing. He's really placing himself at the crime scene. Chris McDonough, does anybody get that? Yeah, I mean, you're a thousand percent right again, Nancy. I mean, think about it, right? You know, some other dude did the crime, but I happen to be in the neighborhood. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to tell you, I had my phone turned off the whole time. But every other time I've been in the neighborhood. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to tell you, I had my phone turned off the whole time. But every other time I've been in the neighborhood, I've had my phone on.

And, you know, it's almost I can't wait to hear and you more than anybody have been in that courtroom, you know, 100 times with these kind of guys, and you think to yourself, you know, wait a minute, what's the opening statement going to be from the defense? Cause that's how, that's the only thing we're going to have at that moment. And it's interesting that you just said, you know, he's going to, you know, start producing all of these witnesses that are going to buy this alibi out there, you know, some other dude. So when you drive up that road, your whole sense of, oh, my gosh,

this guy knows this neighborhood, it just comes so clear to anybody that took that drive or will take that drive. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's refresh our recollection on this. Maureen Callahan joining us, dealandmail.com, and author of Ask Not, The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed. Again, you're going to need a volume two. But that said, Maureen Callahan, didn't Pings and other information place him, Brian Koberger, in close proximity to the murder scene about 11 times before the night the co coeds and Ethan Chapin were murdered?

They did, Nancy. I believe it may have been 12. And, you know, that information just doesn't lie. What possible reason did that young monster have to be in that neighborhood seemingly surveilling that house and you know that timeline that you just threw up i think is incredibly important i believe it shows he turned the cell phone off at 12 47 and it comes back on at 4 48 so that would be the window of time that these savage murders are being committed and you know when we talk about the delay of this trial um which is you know really to my mind making a laughing stock of the american criminal justice system i think it's important to remember that

there were two young people in the house who survived that night one of whom a young woman who actually saw him exiting the house and froze in a sort of very animalistic fear response. You know, where is the justice not just for these families, but for these surviving victims who will carry this with them their entire lives? Where is the fear that memories will fade or become even more fungible, that the defense might really have something to leverage there? I've said this in a column I wrote about the piece, but even the name of the judge presiding in this case, Judge Judge, who can't seem to make things happen. It feels like a kangaroo court. I agree with you, Maureen Callahan. I've been on the judge's side so far, but as a trial lawyer, having tried so many cases that I've lost count of them, have handled so

many pleas well up into the thousands that I no longer have count of all the guilty pleas I took on felony cases. This is insane. I mean, the incident happened all the way back in November 2022, November 13, 2022, as I recall, and they don't want to have the trial until at best summer of 25. That means we're approaching November of 25 will be then three years since the incident. Back to I'm going to address delay, delay, delay, delay. The defense best friend. You lose witnesses. Witnesses die. Witnesses move.

They can't be found. Their memories become clouded. You lose witnesses. Witnesses die. Witnesses move. They can't be found. Their memories become clouded. You lose pieces of evidence. Everything changes. The house has already been torn down now. There's no way to take the jury over there, even for a drive-by. That opportunity is gone. What else are we going to lose before this judge finally moves this case to trial? And it is on him. Yes, I know this is a death penalty case. Death penalty cases require more time to prepare. That's enough time. That's too much time. Now the defense is whining. They need more time. But I want to get back before I address the delay aspect, which is really being fueled by the judge. As you pointed out, judge, judge. I want to address the alibi situation because now the defense is teasing.

They actually have witnesses to support that Brian Koberger wasn't on the scene. This is what we know regarding Pings and finding him on video surveillance, 2.42 a.m. His phone is at his apartment at Pullman, where he's getting his PhD at a different college. 2.42, he heads south. 2.47, he's in his car. Wow, I think I'll save my battery. He cuts the phone off like this AC, anal compulsive dude, did not have a charger in the car. No way. Three twenty nine, three twenty nine a.m. After he cuts his phone off, we're talking about around 40 minutes later. There he goes by the King Road residence three times in his white Elantra phone off, but busted, man. He got you on surveillance video. You're not getting out of that. 404. He returns and he stops in front of the house. Surveillance video revealing that to us. 420. The sedan leaves the area at a high speed. 448, phone ping. The phone's back on

south of Moscow, State Highway 95. And let me tell you something. I got in the car and I drove that route at night in the dark of night after midnight. There are not street lights. When a big rig would come toward me, I'd practically have to pull off the side of the road. It's a two lane. And that's the route he chose to take at four o'clock in the morning. Let that sink into the jury that this guy's out driving around alone at four o'clock in the morning, turns off his cell phone at coincidentally, once again, a coincidence, the same time the four beautiful University of Idaho students are murdered. Okay. He's in his car driving around. Four beautiful University of Idaho students are murdered.

Okay, he's in his car driving around. Who is going to be his alibi witness? Take a listen to Sidney Sumner, Crime Online. The prosecutors in Coburger's defense have not been able to reach an agreement on a trial start date. Lata County Prosecutor Bill Thompson requested the trial begin on March 3, 2025. The defense attorney for Koberger, Ann Taylor, says she needs more time to review evidence and requested the trial begin no sooner than June 2025. The judge will decide the exact date, but with it happening in 2025, the trial will be livestreamed by the court. Whether Brian Koberger's murder trial begins in March or June, Ann Taylor has mentioned the defense expects to have 400 witnesses as well as a wide variety of evidence to show at trial. Witnesses, witnesses, aren't they alibi witnesses? Let's just hash through this to you,

Chris McDonough. You have driven the route just like me. Who along that route could possibly have witnessed him not being at the crime scene, let's just say between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m.? Who? That's a great question. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. I mean, 400 witnesses. You know, where are you going to find 400 witnesses, number one, alibi witnesses? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's get this straight.

I'm asking the questions. You're giving the answers. Q and A. I'm the Q. You're the A. Okay. Who in the hay could have been a witness? Somebody at a gas station?

No, no, no, no, no, no. Not a gas station. Who could be the alibi witness they're alluding to? Remember, you get those kind of witnesses, and witness testimony is the worst testimony you could ever. Eyewitness testimony is the worst because, you know, so many variants, right, and so many factors that change instantaneously. I suspect they're going to find people that go, yeah, it kind of looked like that, but that's not the guy. We're going to get a lot of that. I think also you're going to have, you know, friends coming up.

Look at, I mean, this guy's sitting in jail and he's getting love letters. Those are the kind of witnesses that you'll get, you know, and, you know, who knows what's going to come out of the, you know, the magic hat when they reach in and, you know, they stick their hand and they pull something out. It's crazy. Yeah, I just don't see how they're going to have an alibi witness. I don't believe it. And what that means, Tara Malik, you're the high profile lawyer in the Idaho jurisdiction.

If they don't have an alibi witness excluding him from the King Road murder scene in that narrow window of time when we believe the murders occurred. And we can, in fact, nail it down because the time they came home late that night after a night of co-ed partying and going to food trucks and walking in and out of Fraternity Row, they get home. We know that they made a door dash delivery. They got the delivery. We know what time that was by their phones. We know that they're on their phones texting and playing games at a certain time. So we know they were alive at that time. And based on the pings when he turns his phone back on, we know the murders had to occur in that time. So go with me, Tara. If there is no witness, no alibi witness, then the only witness to that would be him, which means he would have to stay to take the stand.

He, Brian Koberger, would have to take the stand to establish his alibi. That will be a cold day in hell because he will be torn apart on cross-examination. Absolutely. He absolutely will be torn apart. I mean, that would be a prosecutor's dream for him to take the stand. How is he going to explain the ninth sheath and his DNA? How is he going to explain turning his phone off? How is he going to explain his actions immediately after these murders, leaving the state, leaving the state with his dad, cleaning out the car with bleach? I mean, he would have a really tough time on the stand explaining his actions to a jury in a way that would be even remotely believable. So I don't think that he is going to be put on the stand

by Ann Taylor. I would be absolutely shocked. And as far as his alibi, if he had an alibi, if he wasn't there, I mean, this is a huge case. This is a just heinous crime. And if he wasn't around, why is it that we are just hearing about these witnesses? If it were anybody else who'd been charged with four heinous murders like this, horrendous murders, why wouldn't they be running to the prosecutor's office or law enforcement immediately and going, here are the, you know, 100 people, 30 people, whatever number they want to throw out there who can corroborate that it wasn't me. I wasn't around. The fact that it's taking this long to put some sort of coherent alibi together in and of itself is suspect. Tara Malik, you are exactly correct. Why not on day one go, I was at so-and-so. I was sleeping over at my girlfriend's place. I was out playing pool at so-and-so's house till four that morning. I was drinking at this bar until closing time. They turned the lights on and off and I finally left. Why not? You're right. It has taken since the time of the murders, November 13, 2022, to come up with the alibi.

And here's the other kicker, Tara Malik. Once you commit to an alibi, you're screwed because as long as you don't say anything, that means you have the ability to say anything at trial. But once you commit to an alibi as they have, he likes to take long drives at night. Okay. You're stuck with that. You are stuck with your words. Once you say that. Absolutely. You are. You're absolutely, he didn't have to say a thing. He absolutely, he did not have to indicate that he had an alibi to begin with. He could have just put the state to its burden and say, you know, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and gone from there. But instead, they took this affirmative action of saying, we have an alibi. We'll let you know later on what that looks like and who it is, which is not an alibi to begin with. Let's just be clear on that point. But he's taken this

stand now that there's going to be some sort of alibi. And it's also strange because, you know, it wasn't like he entered a not guilty plea in this case during his arraignment either. He stood silent. So he's standing silent. He's not entering a not guilty plea. He is not disclosing his alibi. I mean, the whole thing makes no sense. And it's very confused as far as strategy goes. And now we're hearing that the judge can't seem to move the case along, get it to go to trial until nearly three years since the murders. That's BS, technical legal term. Take a listen to what the families, for instance, of Kaylee Gonsalves have to say. The families of Kaylee Gonsalves and Xander Canodal issued a public statement sharing their frustration in not having a trial start date yet.

Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson says he could be ready to present his case in March of 2025, while Coburgers Lead Attorney Ann Taylor says she will not be ready until June 2025. Taylor also says she plans to call 400 witnesses in a trial expected to last six weeks. In their open letter, the González and Cronuto family statement begins with, Why are victims' families so misunderstood? The letter concludes with, We want to start healing. We do. We want to find justice and try to move on from this horrible tragedy. So please, please start making some

decisions. Amen. Amen, brother. Start making some decisions, judge, judge, judge. Do something. There should not be a three-year delay. Of course, the judge does not want to jeopardize a death penalty case and get a reversal on appeal if there is a conviction. But three years? No. H-E-double-L-N-O. Way too long. And let me tell you, Dr. John Delattore, I had a case. An incident occurred when I was in law school. The case was tried. There were clear

errors. Two defendants were tried together and both of their statements came in where they blamed each other. You can't do that. It's called interlocking statements. You have the right to cross-examine a, by the way, that that is Chris McDonough, that it's not Dr. John Delatore. You have the right to cross examine any witness brought on against you. And so when your co-defendant blames you, you can't call the co-defendant to the stand if they take the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. So I had this case, Dr. Delatore, that was tried when I was in law school and went all the way up to one level before the U.S. Supremes, came back down for a retrial. 14 years later, I got the case to retry. You know what was left, Deletory? I went in the evidence room. There was one x-ray. I didn't know what it went to, but I could clearly see a bullet in it.

And a baseball cap that said, kiss my bass. What was I supposed to do with that? It took me painstaking work literally around the clock to put that case back together again. I'm happy to report both co-defendants were tried separately and were convicted and are still behind bars today. Dr. Delatore, delay, delay, delay, defense best friend. But what is it doing psychologically to the victims' families? It's destroying them. It's ongoing torture. It's absolutely ongoing torture as to what's going on with these families.

Like they said, they just want justice. They want the machinations of the judicial system to work. But here's the problem is that it's not working in their favor. If this is supposed to be about justice, right, we're not seeing justice for the family members. If this is supposed to be about fairness and equity, sure, Brian Kohlberger deserves fairness and equity, but so do the family members. He violated the rights of these individuals. They should still be alive, and they're not. And they should have the right for their own speedy trial in order for them to move forward with the healing process. You know what? Not only are the victims' families

being destroyed psychologically, the way that the victims were destroyed physically is adding so much pain to these family members. Let's just do a quick reality check as you're looking at the bright, vibrant, happy faces of these four young people. You don't really read about them in the headlines anymore. We often hear about the girls, the girl victims, because many people like myself believe that one of them was the main target of Koberger. I don't want Ethan to get lost in the sauce. But every day their case becomes more and more distant. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, my longtime colleague and now friend, renowned medical examiner, forensic pathologist, former detective with Lexington County Sheriff's, and author of Money, Mischief and Murder, the Murdoch Saga.

That also will require volume two. But more important, for my purposes, she literally wrote the book. She's the author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Could you explain, just so we don't ever forget, what happened to these four young people were their lives in front of them? Nancy, from what I've read and seen, this was the most horrific crime.

I mean, the rage that was carried out on these young people and the absolute devastation of their bodies, I can't even think about it. It was just horrific. It was horrific. And I want to say something about the witnesses that Coburger supposedly has. We know that eyewitnesses are only accurate about 50% of the time, 50%. So this whole thing is crazy. They need to make a decision. The judge needs to start this trial and give this family some closure and time to heal.

Well, let's just start with the murder weapon. We know what the murder weapon is because the killer left the knife sheath. This is a fixed blade, unlike, you know, a switch blade or a pen knife you open up. A fixed blade knife. How do I know what kind? Because Koeberger ordered the identical knife sheath and knife on Amazon. And we have that order. He ordered this knife. Now the knife itself has never been found. The sheath, however, was found almost under one of the victim's bodies with Koberger's DNA on the snap where he had snapped and unsnapped that knife. If you look at the sheath, it has a snap that closes down, right? It is behind

the handle. That sheath folds over and snaps. That's where his DNA was found. That is the type knife used to murder these four victims. And I have long said one of the most painful and brutal deaths is a knife death. Why? That's right, Nancy. I mean, this is a sharp force instrument. You know, when you even a paper cut on your finger, can you imagine a knife like that being thrust into your body all over and several times in so many places? And then absolutely all the blood around. It's just horrific. Multiple stab rooms, one of the bloodiest and most gruesome crime scenes these L.A. law enforcement had ever seen. I've literally seen cops leave a crime scene and vomit,

especially a rookie, vomit over what they've seen. Jump in, Chris. Thank you. You know what? I got to tell you because to your point there for a moment, that when you get to these types of scenes immediately, the cast off, the type of savagery that takes place, because that knife is a very personal weapon to the suspect. And the victim that sees this item coming at them, in this case, it's a K-Bar,

United States Marine Corps military killing machine. It's a tool to kill. And those officers, those detectives that got there, I can tell you, I've stood in crime scenes and looked up the ceiling while the M.E. is counting wounds on the victim. And I'm counting cast off, you know, from that knife on every stab wound. And we're trying to correlate those two together. But in this case, he starts with two and he's got two more to go. This guy is

as evil and as brutal as it can get in those things. And not only are the cops going to be having those memories for the rest of their lives, but the family has not only getting pulled through

this non-decision problem with this judge, but they're also going to have to see all of this that's coming. You know, God bless them. Well, speaking of that, Chris McDonough, you're right. Back to Dr. John Delatore. Dr. Delatore, I had similar reactions and still do, having been a victim of violent crime myself. It's hard for family members and loved ones of the murder victims to reconcile a ton of steaming hot BS with legal rights. Like, they hear alibi. They're like, oh, hell no. He doesn't have an alibi. What is this BS he's trying to unload in the courtroom when we know as lawyers that the defense has a

right to put up an alibi, even if it's a big fat lie. So this is excruciating for family members who hear the judge wants the trial to be three years, three years after. I wish the state could file for a speedy trial three years after the murders. And now they're hearing Koberger is going to have an alibi and they're having to basically hold their feet to the fire to get witnesses to the alibi. I mean, this is excruciating. The legal process is just torturing the families of these victims. Yeah, absolutely. This is what it means when we say terms like time is relative. So for most of us, right, this three years, yes, we're all up in arms about the delay that's happening, but three years is going to pass for us in an instant. For these family members, each day, each hour, each minute is excruciatingly long. Each time,

each experience that it gets brought up is just expands the timeframe with which their trauma and everything that's going on with them is happening to them. And until there's a resolution that they can accept, it's going to be like a wound reopening time and time and time again. To you, Tara Malik, the right to present an alibi, of course, is guaranteed under the Constitution, your defense, and the state nor the judge can interfere with your ability to put up your defense. But this has really got to be tortuous to the victim's families because they don't believe there is an alibi and that whatever alibi the defense is presenting is a big lie.

Absolutely. It is really difficult for victims' families in situations like this to have to sit through a trial and listen to an alibi, you know, be cobbled together like it's, you know, being attempted in this situation, especially under these circumstances where there's absolutely no clarity at all about what this alibi really looks like and whether or not there are actually witnesses who can corroborate that Koberger was somewhere else and couldn't have committed these murders. Yeah, that's right, Tara, because they're saying he has an alibi. Right now we're getting two theories. He likes to go on long drives alone at 4 o'clock in the morning. And that there is, Ann Taylor, the defense lawyer, has said there's going to be evidence corroborating Koberger, quote, being at a location other than the King Road address.

And that location will be disclosed pursuant to discovery and evidentiary rules. I mean, if I had an alibi, I'd be screaming it to the top. I'm looking at Jackie shaking her head. Yes, I'd be screaming it all day. When I wasn't there, I was at X, but that didn't happen. Did it? Because it's a lie. This is what's happening to Maureen Callahan joining us, columnist for thedailymail.com. I love your columns, by the way. Maureen Callahan, I understand that there is a hearing set for April where the alibi is going to be disclosed. Do you know about that? I know nothing about what this alibi is going to be, nor the context for the disclosure. Can't wait to hear it. Can't wait to hear it. You know, as I was listening to your other guests and experts, I was thinking about what this trial, insofar as it's

developing with this like years long gestational period, really sort of why it's striking such a nerve. And I think there's something about what seems to be the white glove treatment that is being afforded the suspect. When you look at images of him in court, he's in there without handcuffs. He's in there without being surrounded by law enforcement. If he is guilty of what the prosecution is charging him with, which most reasonable people think is absolutely the case. He's a very dangerous individual. He seems to be enjoying the dragging out of this process to refuse to enter vocally his own not guilty plea is an F you to the court to make the judge do it. And I think what this goes to is this overall sense that right now in America, like up is down, down is up. It is criminals who are getting the benefit of the doubt, the gentler treatment, while it's law abiding citizens who are really being made to suffer in multiple ways. You see it across the board in this country right now. And when you have the families of the victims making a very rational public plea, please do not destroy the crime scene.

Please do not destroy this house. It is without question any jury is going to want to walk through. I mean, you guys were just going sort of through the drive that you both took to sort of really comprehend how well the suspect would have had to know those roads, those unlit, unmarked roads that, you know, who doesn't drive around in the middle of the night, early in the morning and turn their cell phone off on deserted highways, please.

But to have that very, very logical, rational request just completely denied and to have the house demolished within a month, this all seems unfavorably stacked against the victims and their families. And I think that it's why it's so important as you're doing, Nancy, to keep the pressure on everyone involved in this case. Because the longer it is delayed, the worse it's going to be for the families. And just think, the summer's coming up, Maureen. What's the judge going to be doing? Out golfing on the lake?

He ought to have his rear end up on that bench trying this case until it's done. Enjoy your summer vacation, Judge, while the families of these victims have more and more sleepless nights full of rage, full of anger, full of disillusionment with you and the justice system. You know what? I'm glad Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold because I would hate for her to see what this judge is orchestrating in this courtroom right now. I just want to know, with your own experience, you know, a case like this for any judge, any lawyer, it's a potential star maker. So what's the thinking? Who gives a flying fig about being a star i want justice you think i ever thought i'd end up on tv when i tried a murder case i'm not talking about

you at all i'm not talking at all i hear you this judge yeah okay number one you're right it can make and break the careers make or break the careers of all these prosecutors and all this defense team and this judge in case they ever want to do anything beyond what more or different than what they're doing right now. You'd think they'd take it a little more seriously, right, Maureen Callahan? But apparently, the judge doesn't care what anybody thinks about him. And that includes what the victim's families think about him. Yeah, let's not forget, Nancy, your vegan choices as well in the jail.

You know, today we're serving vegan meals for Mr. Kober, where everybody else is probably, you know, has two pieces of bread with a piece of bologna in between it. So, you know, this judge needs to just say, you know, let's get this thing moving. Let's move it. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm a little more concerned about a true verdict for these families than I am about his bologna sandwich. But that said, we wait until justice unfolds. I can't wait to hear that alibi because I guarantee you there's going to be at least one woman that's going to rip that alibi to shreds. I think you know who that is. Goodbye, friend.