Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO SLAY SUSPECT BRYAN KOHBERGER CLAIMS "I'M AUTISTIC" TO AVOID DEATH PENALTY

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Bryan Kohberger's attorneys have filed a motion to remove the death penalty as a sentencing option for their client. Their motion, titled “Motion to Strike Death Penalty RE: Autism Spectrum Disorder,” was filed Monday, along with a separate motion to "Redact or Seal Newly Filed Records in Support of Their Motion to Strike Death Penalty RE: Autism Spectrum Disorder Under Seal." This indicates the defense is citing autism spectrum disorder in its effort to keep Kohberger off death row. As of early this morning, the full documents were not publicly available online. The motions are sealed, so it remains unclear whether Kohberger has been diagnosed or if the defense is seeking a diagnosis. Meanwhile, Judge Stephen Hippler ruled against Kohberger’s defense regarding the DNA technique used to identify him as a suspect in the quadruple homicide case. Hippler determined that police did not violate Kohberger’s constitutional rights, stating there is "no reasonable expectation of privacy in identity" and that Kohberger’s team "did not prove that his DNA was tested for anything other than identifying purposes." The judge wrote, "Even if the DNA analysis revealed sensitive personal details, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in crime scene DNA." Hippler has rejected multiple defense motions to suppress evidence. He ruled that police did not violate Kohberger’s constitutional rights during searches leading up to his arrest. One motion sought to exclude genetic evidence obtained through forensic genealogy, but the court found no violation. The defense also requested a hearing to determine whether the court was misled in obtaining warrants, but the judge denied the request. The court upheld digital evidence from Kohberger’s Google, Apple, Amazon, and AT&T accounts, dismissing claims that the FBI’s subpoenas constituted warrantless searches and ruling that the search warrants were valid Joining Nancy Grace today: Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," Featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room."  Dr. Monte Miller - Director, Forensic DNA Experts LLC, Specialist in Sexual Assaults and Murder, Former Forensic Scientist for Texas Dept. of Public Safety State Crime Lab Foresnsic  Joseph Scott Morgan  - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Germania Rodriguez  - Germania Rodriguez, Chief US Reporter, DailyMail.com and host of Welcome to MAGAland podcast See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A shocked Koberger claim that an eyewitness says the killer fled the murder scene with a handheld vacuum. And now, after reading court documents, we learn, did Koberger get rid of his shower curtain? Wonder why? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Just around 3 a.m. and a man named Brian Christopher Koberger was taken into custody. Koberger claims he was driving his car, as he often did, to hike and run and or see the moon and stars. Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in Mr. Koberger's innocence. Okay, well, she may be firm in her belief, but a grand jury has handed down an indictment, a true bill, charging him with four murders.

The murders of four beautiful University of Idaho students, dead, slaughtered, in their beds. And tonight, we learned the eyewitness states the killer fled the scene with a hand vac. Listen. Hipler's ruling also revealed new details of what surviving roommate Dylan Mortensen saw the night of the murders. In the closed-door hearing, the defense attempts to argue Mortensen's account is unreliable, and while the judge agrees Mortensen was likely drunk during the murders, he points out that her statements to police were very similar each time and other evidence corroborates what she witnessed. Hippler reveals that in Mortensen's second and third interviews, she mentions the suspect carrying what looked to be a handheld vacuum. Oh, according to reports, that is so Koberger with the handheld vac. Who else would do that?

Now, guys, let me go straight out to Hermania Rodriguez joining us, chief U.S. reporter with DailyMail.com and host of Welcome to Magaland podcast. No politics on crime stories. OK, no crime. No crime. Victim is a political football. So everybody keep your politics to yourself. Back to the hand that Hermania, what do you know? That's right. These new court documents are offering new details about the investigation that led police

to Brian Koberger. We know that there were surviving roommates that were in the house and one of them said that she saw a bushy eyed man. We know Koberger's eyebrows have been a topic of debate after this surviving witness said they saw a white tall man with bushy eyebrows. Now, now we know that she also said in following interviews that he was carrying a hand. Okay, that's bushy. Wait a minute. Hermania, look. That, okay, hold it. That is bushy.

Go ahead. Correct. That has been a topic of discussion. And that part of the witness's testimony has never changed the description of what the suspect looked like. However, it appears that in her initial interview, she hadn't mentioned the handheld vacuum. Now, we know that this witness has said her mind wasn't clear, that she was kind of in a dreamlike state. Of course, Koberger's team of lawyers have gone after this young woman's credibility, saying that what she is saying cannot be trusted because she admitted to being in a not clear state of mind. Now, the judge said that even if... Put Hermonia up. Put her up. Hermonia, I asked you about the handheld vac.

And so far, what I've heard is everything wrong with the eyewitnesses statement. Can you tell me about the vacuum? I'll give Dubay a chance to slice the poor witness to shreds before I sew her back together again. Vac, vac, vacuum, Hermania. Right. So as I said, the surviving roommate said she saw the suspect, bushy, eyebrowed suspect, leaving with a handheld vacuum. She also had said, as we already knew, that the suspect said something like, I'm here to help, before he exited their home through a sliding door. Quietly, this witness has said she then went back to sleep, wasn't clear on what happened, but she has repeated in several interviews this detail about the handheld vacuum.

Well, obviously, it stood out in her mind. She says, oh, my stars. He had a hand vac. That's not the kind of detail you can insert into someone's memory. OK, I need to shrink before Dubé jumps on this. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, I say co-analyst joining us out of L.A., author of Deal Breakers. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. You can see her now on Peacock. Dr. Bethany, it doesn't end there. Everybody on the panel, I want you to envision what you have in your closet,

what you keep in the deep, dark recesses in the back of your closet, okay? Now listen to this. The defense also argues that Moscow PD failed to disclose that lab testing did not reveal any of the victim's DNA in Koberger's car or apartment, but a search warrant return did list a vacuum canister having been removed from a closet in Koberger's Pullman apartment where investigators also found a black glove and receipts. Koberger's shower curtains

had been removed and all trash cans were empty. Wow, he's certainly the neat nick. There's a lot there to dissect, but can we just talk about the fact that in his closet, in the back, dark, deep recesses of his closet, he has a vacuum canister, a spare. Do you have one of those in your closet by all your designers she used Dr. Bethany? I bet you don't. I do not. Can we talk about the killer with a hand vac? What does it say? Well Nancy we use hand vacs to clean things up right? So obviously he was anticipating a messy scene and the fact that he would need to clean things up or he was looking for tokens or fetishes or something he could suck up before he left so he would have something to play with toy with but i think it's likely that it was just an instrument for cleaning after the commission of a crime which obviously he got scared off

and he didn't complete okay um maybe i'm the crazy one on this panel, but I guess I have to spell it out for Joe Scott Morgan and Dr. Bethany Marshall. But I need the help of Dr. Monty Miller joining us, director, forensic DNA expert, specialist in forensic science, forensic scientist for Texas Department of Public Safety. And it goes on and on. You can find Dr. Monty Miller at crimelabforensicdnaexperts.com. Dr. Monty Miller. Okay. Address on the blackboard. Spell it out for me.

Why would a killer bring a hand vac to a murder scene? Yeah, I mean did did he bring it or did he take it from there um yeah I mean you would only bring it for you know to clean up to like vacuum stuff off of you um and things like that so that you wouldn't leave it in your car so he might have just brought his own and then kind of used it to clean himself up so that he doesn't leave a mess in his car. They didn't find anything in his car and maybe because he cleaned up. Obviously, he took the hand vac to get rid of evidence. And no, he did not steal their vacuum cleaner. He took the vacuum cleaner with him. The only question is why? I'm going to give Joe Scott Morgan another swing at the ball. Be succinct. So you're telling me that he thought

so far ahead that he's going to bring a handheld vac with him in addition to a knife. And he's going to take time to utilize this vacuum cleaner in order to clean up. What's he going to clean up? All of the wet blood in there? Because it's not going to work. This guy's supposed to be some kind of forensic genius. Remember, they've talked about this forever and ever. This is not going to be appropriate for the task at hand. I can't imagine. But why would he, put him up. Joe Scott, Joe Scott, my friend and colleague, he brings the hand back to the scene, that's what prosecutors are going to argue, to clean up evidence. Was that feasible? Did it make sense? No. But think, think, thinky, think, think, Use that noodle. Joe Scott, what does he do for a living? He teaches forensic science, criminology.

Stop inflating what he does with forensic science. I've gone over this over and over and over again. He is studying criminology. You're just saying that because you're a forensic professor and you don't like him equating with you. He's a PhD student student criminologist he's a ta a teaching assistant criminology not forensic science okay just because you i don't know he's certainly no joe scott you know what let's just everybody stipulate he's no joe scott morgan now that said with his limited understanding as a student of criminology, he takes a hand vac to the murder

scene thinking somehow he's going to get rid of evidence. Obviously, that's not feasible. But in his mind, having only got book learning about crime, I mean, why else would he bring a hand vac to the scene? Again, be succinct. He's not going to bring a hand-heeled vac to the scene. I don't believe it. I'm just not buying it. This is what he brought to the scene. Are you saying he stole it? Did he steal the hand

vac? The whole house steals a hand vac. We have to go back. Well, then, are you saying the witness is lying? No, I'm saying that she's not remembering correctly, is what I'm saying. You know, bushy eyebrows, face covered, then are you saying the witness is lying? No, I'm saying that she's not remembering correctly is what I'm saying. You know, bushy eyebrows, face cover. It's dark. You know, she's saying that he also had a hand handheld back.

OK, so you are accepting part of her description, but not the other part, because you, a professor of forensics, doesn't think it's feasible. You know what? Let me just jog everyone's recollection. Listen. A police source says Brian Koberger cleaned his car meticulously, both inside and out, in the days leading up to his arrest. The source, speaking anonymously, says during the four days of surveillance at the Koberger family's Pennsylvania home, the suspect was seen detailing

his white Hyundai Elantra, quote, not missing an inch. Some of the trash taken from the car was deposited in a neighbor's trash bin at 4 a.m. Agents recovered the garbage and some items were sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing. Detectives also seized a car vacuum reportedly used to clean out the vehicle. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that's what we call a pattern. M.O., modus operandi, method of operation. He's cleaning up at 3 and 4 a.m.

wearing underwear, shorts, and plastic gloves at his parents' house. He's putting, I guess, evidence into separate plastic bags, putting them in the Dixie dumpster, and putting them in the neighbor's trash wearing plastic gloves. When they go to his home, his apartment in Pullman, 10 minutes away from the murder scene, his apartment is meticulous, no trash in the trash cans, and he has destroyed, gotten rid of his shower curtain. Think, think, think, think. Of course he took a hand back to the murder scene. In his limited understanding of what a murder scene really is,

you know, he's seen pictures and read books. He thinks he can remove forensic evidence. It fits perfectly with what we know of him. Okay, so Nancy, I think he's obsessive compulsive and we see this in his meticulous planning to commit this crime. He probably researched it. There's probably evidence in his computers. He

probably thought about it day and night, probably prepared the car, prepared the handbag to take there. And he probably meticulously studied the house. So criminals who want to commit homicide, not only are they compulsive, meaning they just they can't discharge and neutralize anxiety without committing an act, but they also become so obsessed with every single detail. Joining me now, we've been holding him at bay, renowned defense attorney joining us out of L.A., Philip Dubé. Okay, have at it. Have at what? I mean, listen, a lot of unsophisticated criminals think that a dust buster is going to pick up all shedding, slough off, and trace evidence. It's ridiculous.

It's not going to happen. You're going to leave behind minuscule pieces of hair follicles, skin follicles. You're going to leave behind dust, your own DNA, your own touch DNA. And to think that a dust buster is going to clean up the scene is actually laughable. And frankly, this could support the argument that maybe he is a little on the spectrum because his constant. So to make that argument, you have to admit he did the crime. If you're claiming some sort of a mental defense, the only way to do that under our American jurisprudence is to say, I did it, but I was

insane. Okay. Now, under the spectrum does not rise to insanity. We all know that. Let's not mislead anyone regarding the definition of insanity in our country. So, of course, it's a given to everybody on this panel and probably all of our viewers that a hand vac is not going to get rid of evidence. The point is a person obsessed with crime, a person that only knows about crime through learning in a classroom, has never been to an actual murder scene, has no idea what that encompasses. A person that is anal compulsive, fastidious, that is known to vacuum excessively, even keeping an extra vacuum canister in the deep, dark recesses of his closet would bring a hand vac to a murder scene. This is him fitting him to a tee. I don't understand the issue you guys are having. Chris McDonough, you're the homicide investigator. Is this making any sense,

or am I just screaming out the window on 3rd Avenue here? Well, there's another possibility, Nancy. I mean, remember, whatever comes into that scene, there's a potential that it doesn't leave, i.e. cross-contamination. And so I'm with Doc Morgan on this one, to be honest with you, because the other possibility is we don't know if one of the victims picked up that hand vac and used it as a weapon of defense while they were being attacked. OK, you've all gone insane. The person who did this crime looked at one of the victims and said, I'm here to help.

If that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that you could ever hear. That shouldn't be rewarded with a suit. And a fresh haircut every time. And a beacon meal. That's wild. That's wild. straight out to an investigative reporter the chief u.s reporter with dailymail.com host of welcome to magaland podcast hermania rodriguez hermania the latest it's a bombshell the defense is arguing coberger suffers autism yeah it's truly shocking. They filed this motion on Monday. It's worth noting that this defense team has filed many different motions and defenses that have delayed this case for years now. The latest, they are asking that prosecutors do not seek the death penalty because Koberger, they say, it's on the autism spectrum again this is the first time we hear this we have never heard before

that coberger is autistic now this is going to be another uh court fight while i'm sure the prosecution asks for any evidence of this autism as again it has never been introduced to court before in their motion the defense has not filed any evidence, any testing to support this claim of autism, but they want the death penalty punishment dropped before the trials. Hermania Rodriguez, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the murders occur just before Thanksgiving break at University of Idaho, specifically November 13, 2022? Is that correct? That's a yes, no. That's all right. Okay. So, Hermonio, you're telling me it has taken from 11-13-22 to February 25

for them to determine that Koberger is autistic? That's right, Nancy. It's a shocker. We have never heard this before from the defense team. As again, it's another motion that's going to delay things. Koberger already had the district of his trial change, the judge change. And now the defense wants to start litigating at this point years later whether Koberger is autistic or not. Straight out to psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us from LA.

Specifically, it stated a quote motion to strike the death penalty ray autism regarding autism spectrum disorder that has just been filed by Koberger's defense. I'd like you to weigh in, Dr. Bethany. Nancy, this is just a delay tactic. And one of the things we know about autistic individuals is that they notoriously lack insight into what is going on in the minds of others. They have a hard time reading social cues. But what we know about serial killers is that they are keenly interested in what goes on in the minds of others, stalking them,

tracking them, and trying to instill fear and terror as they're killing them. So on the one hand, you have autism, where the person has little interest in what goes on in the mind of the other. And then you have the psychopath, the alleged psychopath, who's obsessed with the state of fear that he's going to induce. You know, Nancy, there were a lot of witnesses to students who were in co-workers class. None of them said that he had Asperger's or autism. Well, what would be some symptoms or some indicators that he could be on the spectrum? Well, learning disorders that persist throughout the lifespan, narrow range of repetitive behaviors.

He's a PhD student. He's a PhD student. He's a teaching assistant. He does have poor communications skills. I'm just a lay person. Okay. He's a PhD student making all A's. You know, Dr. Bethanyany let me just throw something at you

a few names these are people that either discuss their autism are suspected of autism that they had autism um or who exhibit those symptoms okay albert einstein anthony hopkins elon musk Albert Einstein, Anthony Hopkins, Elon Musk, Dan Aykroyd, Susan Boyle, Daryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Greta Thunberg, Bill Gates, Sir Isaac Newton, Emily Dickinson. Jerry Seinfeld has spoken about his experiences with autism and is an advocate. Bobby Fischer, the great chess champion, Charles Darwin, Courtney Love, Lionel Messi, Michelangelo, Mozart, blah, blah, blah. Andy Warhol, I mean, help me. Well, you know, Nancy, I will say that one of the symptoms of autism is an obsession or preoccupation with one single thing or set of things.

Like an autistic child might pick up a train and just turned it over and over and over again in his hand and have no interest in the people in the room or social interaction or engagement. They just want that one thing. It could be that he was, his one obsession was these four students. He's a Ph.D. student. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. After Philip Dubé, veteran defense attorneys won a lot of cases in court. Dubé, he's a Ph.D. student.

He's making all A's. He's a teaching assistant. He teaches classes. How can this be? How can this be a defense? And it's my understanding in every jurisdiction in our country to launch a mental defense such as insanity or impairment, you must first admit you did the deed. You have to say, I did it, but I'm autistic. I did it, but I'm insane.

That's correct. But first of all, Idaho abrogated the insanity defense. It doesn't even exist since 1982. So you can't even put that on. Having said that, whenever you're charged with capital murder, at least in the state of Idaho, you're on two tracks, the guilt phase and the penalty phase. Court-appointed counsel right now is working up both phases of trial. Their endgame, their agenda right now is to spare his life. It's clear from all their defeats in court that they realize that Brian Kohlberger is going down in the guilt phase.

So right now they're trying to save his life. Back in, I think it was 2002, the U.S. Supreme Court held a U.S. v. Atkins that you cannot execute the developmentally or the intellectually disabled. Now, that does not mean that you have to be living with profound mental retardation or a profound disorder on the autism spectrum. The question is for the court and for the jury is, does he have a true concept of reality because of this type of learning disability? It only goes to mitigation to spare his life, not to guilt. To Chris McDonough joining me, founder of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with literally hundreds of death investigations under his belt. I found him on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room, and he has researched and investigated the Idaho Slaves himself. Chris McDonough, let me just throw this at you since my experts seem to ignore it whenever I say it.

According to Hermania Rodriguez and the court filing, she's right. The defense is now filing motion to strike death penalty regarding autism spectrum disorder. Chris, he's a Ph.D. student that teaches criminology and supervises dozens and dozens of students. Do you buy it? No, I don't buy it. And two words, right? Methodical control. Oh, I don't buy it. And two words, right? Methodical control. It's not. I thought you were going to say B.S. Go ahead.

Well, well, and I'm about ready to get there. A hundred percent, Nancy, where, you know, this guy, if he's our guy, which the DNA evidence is pointing that he potentially could be allegedly. This guy is methodical. And that means, you know, they're going to look at a state of mind from the prosecution side. Does you know more than anybody? You know, what's his what's his evil intent here? Does he have an evil mind? And does he know that society, everything that he would do once he committed that crime would be looked

under that looked at through that lens. So I think he is playing a game here. And I think the defense attorneys are listening to what he's probably saying behind the scenes. It won't surprise me if he ends up in the courtroom really pushing his defense and and the and the defense basically just becomes, you know, a sideline. You mean pushing the autistic theory and the defense to the murders becomes a sideline? Yes, exactly. You didn't get to the BS part. Well, I I think he's in deep. And I think the firing of his attorney recently, remember, Ted Bundy did the same thing. And a superior court judge says, you know, Mr.

Bundy, you're so smart. You really had a opportunity of a future. And I would have loved to hear you defend other things in this court of law, but you took the wrong path. When you live in a small college town, it hurts to not know exactly. Four students from University of Idaho murdered. One of the neighbors down there of the girls called and said, I want to tell you I'm a neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead. Revelation, we now learn an eyewitness says the killer fled the scene of the Idaho slays with a vacuum cleaner. We assume that means a hand vac. Now, welcome to the crazy house, because I've got one guest claiming that he stole the hand vac from the victims. I've got another guest stating that a victim tried to fight off the killer with a hand vac.

Reality check. This would not be the first killer that tried to sanitize a scene. Does anybody recall Fotis Dulos? Fotis Dulos, husband of missing Jennifer Dulos, takes an employee's Toyota Tacoma, borrowed without permission, to a car wash and detail shop to try to clean a brown colored stain from the seats. Dulos tells the employee to replace the front seats, and he does, but keeps the originals, ultimately giving them to police. Police allege the stains were blood. He's not the only one. I assume you all remember the beautiful young teacher out of

Memphis, Eliza Fletcher, out jogging, minding her own business. 4.30 a.m. was the only time she could work out because she worked and took care of children. Remember her killer? The man accused of abducting and murdering Eliza Fletcher is seen cleaning out his car just hours after the Memphis teacher disappeared. Video shows Cleotha Abston spending more than an hour in the passenger side of his SUV. A witness says Abston vigorously cleaned the interior of his car with a carpet cleaner. Fletcher's dead body was found close to where police said Abston is seen cleaning out his vehicle. I mean, it goes on and on and on. You've got Scott Peterson that suddenly cleaned the whole apartment,

the whole home after he murdered Lacey and Connor. You've got Jodi Arias who cleaned up and even did laundry. Luckily, she left her digital camera in the washing machine, which revealed her foot by the dead body. But the cleaning, the obsessive cleaning, the thought that you can somehow wash away forensics, that doesn't happen, Joe Scott. No, it doesn't. I've held early on and I've been proven wrong, I think, at this point in time based on the evidence. I held that the car was going to be, quote unquote, a rolling crime scene, that it would be there'd be so much transfer evidence in there because, you know, having worked many, many sharp force injury related homicides over the course of my career, you've got four victims. There's no way that this individual could not have been potentially supersaturated with blood and transferred that evidence into the car. And right now, that hasn't occurred. So, yeah, when you think about it, I think that there is obviously evidence that this guy is cleaning. However, what's the choice here? Is he cleaning

the crime scene with a handheld vac or is he cleaning his car with a handheld vac? I don't know. Did he show up? He's so deranged in his mind. Put him up. Why do I have to choose? You've got an eyewitness stating she sees a tall white male with bushy eyebrows wearing a face mask, lean, and he's got a hand vac. You have. I mean,

this is a pattern, Joe Scott. Then you've got his apartment immaculate where his shower curtain has been taken out. The rings are still up there, but the shower curtain's gone. What could possibly have been on it? Blood, maybe? Thinky think. And hiding an extra vacuum canister in the back of his closet. But that's all deduction. We know that the law enforcement watched him meticulously clean out his car for hours. His sister even said so. Then they see him at 3 a.m. cleaning out the house, getting rid of evidence. He can't stop himself. Does it make sense to you and I, to you and me, that he took in a hand vac to try to get rid of evidence? No, because we've been to

murder scenes. We know that's impossible. But a 29-year-old PhD student in criminology who's never been to a real murder scene probably thinks, hey, I can get rid of evidence. He planned everything meticulously, Joe Scott. This is so him. Yeah, but he still doesn't wear a belt where he can put the sheath of the knife on it and hold it. He leaves that behind. So if he's so OCD, you know, why in the hell did he leave that critical piece of evidence

behind? Which, by the way, which, by the way, contains allegedly his DNA. He left it behind, Nancy. So he's going to go in and he's going to clean the vacuum cleaner. We are not the engineers of the evidence. We take it as we find it and we build our case. How many times, Joe Scott, I'm really actually surprised at you. How many times have we said, what an idiot? Idiots! Because they do idiotic things. They all do even criminal masterminds. Your supposition here is that everything is based upon this eyewitness statement in the dark, in this hallway, where you can't make out specifics.

So I don't know. He's carrying a handheld back. Well, gee whiz, what brand was it? I don't know. I question to you, Joe Scott, you're doing what Philip Dubé was doing earlier. That is you're parsing, you're cherry picking the parts of her eyewitness testimony that you like. You're going to take some. OK, so you want to throw out all of her eyewitness testimony that you like. You're going to take some. Okay. So you want to throw out all of her testimony then? No, I want to know where was the nine. You only want to keep the parts you like. No, it's not that I want to keep.

I want to seek the truth in this and what is available. So do I. And the witness says hand back. You know what? Let's talk about the shower curtain. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hermano Rodriguez joining us. Chief U.S. reporter, DailyMail.com.

Tell me about the missing shower curtain. That's right. We know that Koberger took a lot of measures to clean everything in his life following this murder. When detectives reached his Washington home, they found that there was no shower curtain, of course, suggesting maybe he could have taken a shower in there and there was evidence he needed to get rid of. There was also no trash at all, Nancy.

And this is something that he was also doing in his parents' house in Pennsylvania. He was not throwing his own trash out. We know he was wearing gloves in his parents' house. So we know Koberger tried to cover his tracks, which is why, as your guests are mentioning, there is a juxtaposition because he seemed to be so careful in some ways or attempted to be careful, but then did things like leaving a knife sheath behind and maybe thinking he could clean up a crime scene with a handbag, which, of course, is absolutely impossible. And I think he should have known that as a Ph.D. student of criminology. I mean, you may be able to pick up some hairs, but he must have expected that this scene was going to be bloody and that a handbag would not have helped. But his home showed that he was taking measures to make sure there was no evidence there.

I don't like him looking like he did a white collar crime. This isn't a wall collar crime. This is people, you work your whole life to get them to go to college, and then they get killed while they're asleep that night. And treat this guy like he just, like, traded insider trading with his own company stocks. It's not white collar. And as we go to air tonight,

we learn Koberger has replaced, fired, a lawyer. Listen. Brian Koberger is fine-tuning the team that will represent him at trial in August. Jay Logsdon, an Idaho public defender assisting Ann Taylor, will be replaced with a Northern California attorney who specializes in DNA and previously testified as a paid consultant for the defense. Bicca Barlow, formerly of the San Francisco Public Defender's Office, has been admitted to the case pro hoc vice. Barlow has run a private law office with a focus on cases that involve forensic DNA for over 10 years and claims to have led the first successful challenge of STR DNA evidence in the U.S. Brian Koberger is not the first famous celebrity defendant to get rid of their lawyer.

Does the name Michael Jackson ring a bell? Just after Michael Jackson's Santa Barbara indictment on nine felony counts in the alleged molestation of a young boy, Jackson fires his attorneys Mark Garagos and Benjamin Brafman, the singer commenting that he needs the full attention of his representation while his life is at stake. Joining me, Philip Dubé, veteran trial lawyer out of the L.A. jurisdiction, has handled many a case in court. I remember when Michael Jackson fired Mark Geragos, and Mark Geragos has tried a lot of cases, but Jackson did it. Yeah, but there's a difference between being privately retained and court appointed. In the court appointed cases, counsel can withdraw if

there is a conflict or if they feel they don't have the skills that are required to do the representation. So you bring somebody else on who's paid by the court. It's very, very common. In this particular case, Ann Taylor is lead counsel. She's the captain of the ship and she needs to decide what, if any, type of assistance she needs by way of second chair, third chair, fourth chair, who's going to do the science and who's going to do the mitigation. And it seems like the people that they had for the DNA or for the science weren't well-equipped enough to defend him with this mountain of forensic evidence. And I think the end game initially was to try to get all the forensics suppressed. When that failed, plan B

now is bring on board people who are really lettered and schooled in the forensics. Philip Dubé, do you think it has anything to do with the replaced, fired lawyer Logsdon putting not one but both feet in his mouth last week in court when he described our country, America, let me get this right, as a panopticon, which is essentially a large prison with guards, a surveillance state where your privacy is going to be trampled upon by the police. He said that and it made all the headlines. Well, at a minimum, it's problematic because everybody's under a gag order. You should not be talking to the press, giving any media statements about the case, about the system, about law enforcement. It was in court.

It was in court, open court. OK, but fair enough. Even the mouse in the corner could hear it. I don't know what you're talking about. Privacy. No, I understand. But the point is, I don't think that's enough to remove court appointed counsel from a case. You have to show that counsel just simply cannot perform to the degree that other similarly attorneys perform constitutionally anyway. A million people can tell me, don't let it consume you.

Be patient. Don't think about it. Just, you know, but I am me. I am, I can't. This is my daughter. This is her best friend. This is her brother. I can't stop just being consumed by it.

In the last hours of Bombshell, the defense now claims that they are advancing the theory that Brian Koberger, the Ph.D. student, the teaching assistant in the criminology department at Pullman, is autistic. Hermania Rodriguez, again, tell me about that claim. Right. So this is a new claim we had never heard before in the years we have been covering this case. And it's interesting that it comes right after the Koberger defense team replaced one lawyer with another who's more focused on DNA. It also came after the judge said he was not going to throw out the DNA obtained through genetic tracking. Now, Koberger's defense has asked the prosecution to drop the death penalty, claiming that Koberger is in the autism spectrum. Again, they submitted no evidence of this, no tests, no historical documentation of this diagnosis. So we are sure to see the prosecution now ask for evidence of this alleged autistic diagnosis.

Dr. Monty Miller joining me out of Riverside, California, director, forensic DNA experts. Dr. Miller, again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Miller, the odds in this case that the DNA is incorrect. I mean, it's hard for a lay person to believe. I didn't believe the first time I used DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid in court, but I had to check it and it's correct. The odds are like one in eight octillion that it could be anybody else's DNA. But Coburgers, would you agree with that type of statistic in DNA analysis? The way I would do them, you end up basically with a number so big, just like that one that says the DNA came from him. I mean, it's to that point where scientifically, logically, statistically,

you've ruled out anything else. It really, unless somebody else's DNA matches him and somebody else's DNA that matched him was left there and implicated him. And so the chances of that happening are just zero. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor of of forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, do you agree with Dr. Monty Miller? Those statistics are real. Yeah, I mean, a thousand percent. And I have to tell you, no, he does not have an expectation of privacy relative to any of this biological evidence that they have collected.

And they're trying to, you know, essentially kneecap the evidence and how it was collected and how it was utilized in this particular case. And I think the defense realizes that this is a real uphill battle when you begin to consider the numeric values involved in this. So, Philip Dubé, veteran trial lawyer joining us out of L.A., bottom line, the DNA is irrefutable. It's one in eight octillion that this DNA could have been left by anybody other than Brian Koberger on a knife sheath under a dead body. So where can they go now with a mental defect claim? That's what's happening, Philip. Well, first of all, in the guilt phase, I think the only thing that the touch DNA proves is that somebody with his DNA on a snap left it at the scene. It does not in fact prove that he committed the quadruple homicide. It just

puts his touch DNA on some item that's in the stream of commerce at the scene. So the question is going to become for the state, what else do they have to put him at that house slitting all these students' throats? We remember American hero police officer Christopher Reese, Virginia Beach PD, shot and killed in the line of duty. Passed away along with partner officer Cameron Girvin. Survived by loving family, sentenced to life without him. American hero officer Christopher Reese.

Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.