Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Idaho Student Murders: Black Glove at Crime Scene

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

It's been more than a month since four University of Idaho students were found stabbed to death in off-campus housing. Families of the victims have complained that they are not being kept informed by Moscow Police. Today the Moscow Police Department says they are holding some of the information they have close to the vest so that the investigation isn't compromised.  Today on Crime Stories, Nancy Grace talks to a former homicide detective who has visited the area of the home and reveals that he found a glove outside the home and pointed it out to police.  Joining Nancy Grace Today; Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills)   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips    Irv Brandt - Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs; Country Attache, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: "Solo Shot: Curse of the Blue Stone" available on Amazon in January; Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor   Robert Crispin - Private Investigator & Former Federal Task Force Officer for United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division; Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; “Crispin Special Investigations;" Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc.   Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation & Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"     Priya Banerjee - M.D. Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Legal Consultant Dave Mack - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. After four students slaughtered in their beds in Idaho on the edge of campus. Police are releasing body cam footage. Body cam footage that occurred the night of the murders. Why now? This, as we learn, the elected coroner assigned to the quadruple murder, who is also a defense lawyer, also represents a killer. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to this. For the first time, detectives in Idaho are releasing body camera footage, hoping it can provide new leads in the case of those four murdered college students. The videos show officers on patrol in Moscow, Idaho in the early morning hours of November 13th, around the time investigators believe Zayner Carnado, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan and Kaylee Goncalves were killed in a home near the University of Idaho. Taking that 21? Yeah. In one video, officers are seen issuing citations to three teens for underage drinking. An apartment complex across the street from the victim's home is visible,

just steps away from the officers. Investigators say the people in the videos have been cleared and the incidents have nothing to do with the murders. As you were just hearing from our friends at ABC, body cam footage has been released. Detectives in Idaho releasing body cam footage, hoping it can provide new leads. With me, an all-star panel, but first to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave Mack, I'm just curious about the timing of the release of the body cam footage, but more important, the footage shows Moscow police on patrol in the early morning hours of November 13, around the time of the murders. And in one of the videos, we see officers giving citations to three teens for underage drinking.

An apartment complex across the street from the victim's home is visible. Now, tell me the significance of that, Dave Mack. It actually sets the entire scene for what was taking place at the moment we believe the murders took place. It shows the police, as you mentioned, they're right near the apartment complex that is near the house. You can see the whole area. You can see the cars. You can see anything that was going on. So again, setting the table for what was taking place in the moment we believe the murders took place. Guys, over the past 48 hours, I have watched one particular video over and over and over. I'd stop it. I'd try to reverse it. I'd watch each segment over and over. And I've got to tell you where I found it.

I found it at a podcast, but there is video to go with it. It's called The Interview Room. And I got to tell you something. Watching the podcast, and you'll see why, not just listening to it, but watching it. You can get it on your iPad, your iPhone. The Interview Room. I'll tell you why it was so significant to me. The words I was hearing as I watched it helped me a lot, too. But what I saw was, well, Cheryl McCollum, this is why I never tried a case without going to the crime scene first. Okay. Cheryl McCollum with me right now is a guy named Chris McDonough. Now, he was a director at a Cold Case Foundation,

former homicide detective. That's coldcasefoundation.org. As I said, former homicide, worked over 300 homicides over 25 years, and he is host of this podcast called The Interview Room. And what I saw is this. He, and I think it's your wife, Chris McDonough, but a lady that you keep calling honey. Apparently, the two of you were in a car, but somebody was in a car. And it slowly eased through town. It looked a lot like where I grew up, Chris McDonough. Not even in a city.

Outside a little city, Macon, Georgia. It was a little at the time. There's snow everywhere in this video. And you're riding along. And you see everything. And the guy, and I think that's you, Chris McDonough, is talking over it. And he is telling you everything you're seeing as you drive through Moscow, Idaho. You get to a gas station.

He's telling you this is this, that's that. And at that gas station, I think that there's going to be video security cam. You turn left and start climbing up a hill. And then you realize exactly what McDonough says. You got to know where you're going to get to 1122 King, the murder house. You go weave all up in there and you see houses all around it. Very similar to the murder house. You go weave all up in there and you see houses all around it. Very similar to the murder house. You see the apartment complex.

Guys, I could throw a baseball from the apartment complex to the murder house. McDonough takes you up this little ridge and guess where you end up? You're right there behind the murder house where many of us believe the killer had been looking down. I mean, it's right there. It's amazing. Chris McDonough, welcome. Now, you just heard Dave Mack, Chris McDonough, describing the relevance of this body cam footage. Explain to us where is that footage in relation to 1122 King, the murder house?

So that path, there's a path Nancy, directly to the front door of that residence from where that footage was being filmed that evening from the body camera. You mean in the woods behind the house there's a path going up to the door? No, if we take the body camera footage that evening from the body camera you mean in the woods behind the house there's a path going up to the door no if we take the body camera footage that evening from the police officers on

the alcohol contact if you if you cross that street it goes directly to the to the front door of that house oh wait a minute wait a minute chris mough. Wow. As if your drive-along wasn't enough. Did you hear that, Dave Mack? Cheryl McCollum, did you hear that? Where this body cam footage is. You cross the street and you're at the crime scene. With me, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder of Cold Case Research Institute. Chris, Cheryl and I fought in the trenches together when I was a prosecutor.

She's a forensic expert. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, why is this so important that everybody look at this drive-along? Well, I think you cannot overstate the importance to visit the crime scene. You and I have talked about that before. Where this house is, where this path is, where these woods are, you're talking about a watch area of the perpetrator. And these young people might have been stalked for an hour and a half. They

might have been stalked for two weeks. But if you remember, days and weeks after the murders, law enforcement returned to that area and you can see them even squatting down and walking through that wooded area. They're not collecting anything. They're literally looking at this watch area to see where this perpetrator might have come and hung out for quite some time. Dr. Bethany Marshall with me, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. She's a star in Bling, Empire, and more. Dr. Bethany, I want you to hear what Chris McDonough and Cheryl McCullum are saying. How, just on top of the quadruple murder, and we're going to go to Dr. Priya Banerjee on that in just a second. She is an assistant medical examiner and forensic pathologist. On top of that,

you've got the possibility that someone was sitting back on that area right, it's almost a butt into the back of the murder house watching them. And I've tried to show this picture a million times, Dr. Bethany. It's a picture taken from inside the Sigma Chi house. And you can see Ethan sitting there. But that's not the point. The point is you look out the window, you look right at the murder house. Nancy.

There on top of it, somebody sitting there watching them all this time. I know, Nancy. And just like you were watching the video, I was looking at the photos of these beautiful young people. They are so attractive, young, at the prime of their life. And there are quite a few photos of all four of the victims together. So you amalgamate that information with somebody who had clear visual access to this home. And in my mind, it begins to tell me a little bit about the motive of the perpetrator, not just to attack one individual and then the others are in their way, but somebody who is attracted to a group, a group of people who love each other, who are

getting along. I haven't heard anybody else comment on this, but think about it. I don't know if I buy into that and I'll tell you why. Let me throw that to Chris McDonough, everybody, former homicide detective. It's hard for me to imagine a killer wanting to murder a whole group. Now, you've done so many homicides, and everybody remember, this is Crime Stories. This ain't high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in for Pete's sake. But Chris, unless it's a family situation, especially as we have a lot at Christmas where everybody gets crazy and goes in with a flamethrower and just blows the whole place up. Unless you're going for a whole family, I find that really hard to believe that you are targeting four people. Yeah, 100% agree, Nancy, because I mean, that's why this is such the magnitude that it is

one interesting point though to your discussion a minute ago was you know this is one way in one way out but what I thought was interesting one way in one way out yes hold the thought Chris because I want to circle back with anybody on the panel about why cell phone tower data may be important and why this white Elantra is so important they're looking for. Because who the hey, Jackie, is going to be driving out of a one-way in, one-way out? I describe it as almost a cul-de-sac at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Who is that person that's high tail and it's

getting out and in your video chris it really hit me the thick snow like he chris was trying to walk down in some leaves to give you a good vantage point he's going to slip so he's kind of like creeping along in the video so i want to circle back on that, Jack. So don't let me forget. Go ahead, Chris. You know, and so what's interesting is the night of the alcohol contact, right, that evening, that officer was in a plainclothes, you know, situation. So you have to ask yourself, what did he see prior to the homicides? If he spotted the juveniles drinking alcohol, he obviously was set up in a surveillance situation. So if a vehicle or somebody was walking, did that officer have visual contact with that

potential suspect, even approaching the home? So it actually strengthened the back of the house as a potential place where this individual would hang out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I don't think I noticed in your video, Chris McDonough, you saw the overlapping crime scene tape, and it looked like Cheryl McCollum, as Chris points out in his video on the Interview Room podcast, I think I found it on YouTube.

Cheryl, number one, you cannot minimize the importance of going to a crime scene. You can't try a case unless you've seen the scene. I've had defense witnesses tell me what they saw that night. And then because I'd been to the scene, I could say, wait a minute, isn't there a huge six foot tall thick hedge between where you were and where the dope deal went down. And then they're like, what? Huh? Okay. Yeah. That's why you have to see it. Now, what are you making of what Chris McDonough just told us? Well, I think the most important thing that he's pointed out is the one way in, one way out. Most killers do not box themselves in. So if they're just driving around randomly looking for somebody to harm,

they're not going to put themselves in a situation where they are trapped. They're not going to do it. They're going to make sure that they've got an escape route forward, backwards, and sideways. This person did not do that here. And to me, that is critical. Joining me, Irv Brandt, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshal Service. Also, DOJ. Author of Solo Shot, Curse of the Blue Stone.

It's on Amazon come February. Also, Flying Solo. Wow! Irv Brandt, how do you have time to do everything that you do, all your books? Question to you, if this guy was undercover, he probably would not have had a body cam, a shoulder cam a shoulder a shoulder

camera no that's correct i mean and until he's coming into contact with the people that he wants to interview uh is when he would turn on the body camera so the events leading up to him uh making contact probably wouldn't have been recorded because he'd had no reason to turn that body cam on. Yeah, and Robert Crispin joining me, PI, former Federal Task Force DEA in Miami, never a lack of business there, specialty homicide and crimes on children. You can find him at crispininvestigations.com. Thank God at some point he did turn on the body cam

it should give us a view or somewhat of a view of what was happening around the murder scene hey nance can i jump in for a second okay jump in bethany sorry crispin i'm so sorry i just disagree with the group about a couple of things and i am not oh dear lord in heaven hold it i'll hold it hold on crispin finish it's about body cam. Hold it. I'll hold it. Hold on. Crispin, finish the thought on body cam. So the issue with the body cams is it's HD quality video. And I'm sure that they've gone back and they've probably pulled a lot more than just his body cam.

Because in the background, as you saw in the ones that they've released, you see some other cars parked there. You see some other things that are going around. So it's kind of giving us more of a sketch of the crime scene area. And with the technology today, and you spoke about those cell phone towers, which we can talk about later, you know, and the timing that this happened, and I'll explain it when you're ready, that is going to be the technology that's going to assist law enforcement in making an apprehension in this case. Now, Jackie has held up a sign and it said the roads look more like alleys than roads. I think that may be because they're covered in snow. And by the time people have driven over them, they

look like muddy tracks in snow. What about it, Chris McDonoughough think about the snow factor here and oh everybody in your mind think about where are they getting the tip on the white Hyundai Elantra and how could it get through that snow Chris McDonough I couldn't really tell were you driving up a road once you get up where the house is? Are those actual roads? Are they paths? What are they? They're covered in snow.

Yeah, so when you turn up the main street on King Street, if you follow it straight up, Nancy, it goes up and around that apartment complex, and it brings you behind the Target house. Yeah. There's a big parking lot behind the murder house. If you're in that parking lot, can you look down at the murder house? Yes, 100%. And that's why it was so interesting to be back there because just even getting up into that area, I have a truck and I had to put it into four-wheel drive to get up that hill

because of the ice, you know, to your point. Jack, you look up if Hyundai Elantra, let's just go with 2013, has four-wheel drive because I don't think it does. But that said. All right. So there's your answer to the roads. Guys, not only is this body cam footage just been released. What can it tell us? We have to review the whole thing.

But in the middle of all this, another bomb is dropped. We now have a neighbor stating they heard a woman scream but thought nothing of it. Take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. And now a neighbor who lives near the house says he heard a woman screaming the night of the murders. 30-year-old Enon Harsh, a chef, says he thinks he heard the scream at around 4 a.m., but he quickly dismissed it as noise coming from a party. I didn't think anything of it after what happened I've definitely had second thoughts

maybe it was not a party sound 4 a.m. he says around 4 a.m. and you know Cheryl McCollum anything can start a timeline It could be a broken watch on a murder victim's hand that cracked and you see what time that happened. It could be the dog in the Nicole Brown, Ron Goldman double murder at the hands of OJ Simpson, where the dog Akita lets out this, as the neighbor says, mournful wail. And here we've got a 4 a.m., about 4 a.m. scream. Cheryl? Well, Nancy, you and I have done a whole lot together on cases, and I am a firm believer in knocking on doors. This man should have been found day one, day two.

They should canvas again. They should go door to door here. Door to door is going to answer things video can't, quite frankly, just like the ear witness. Video isn't going to give you that. So to me, who has moved away? Who didn't come back from Thanksgiving break? Who appears nervous? Who drives a similar car?

They got to get boots on the ground and go door to door. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the most recent updates in the last 72 hours in the investigation into the murders of four beautiful young University of Idaho students. Chris McDonough, you have been all over the scene. What do you make of what this new ear witness is saying? I'm trying to figure out where he lives in relation to the house. He's a chef. He says he hears a scream at 4 a.m.

Well, you have to ask yourself, first of all, you know, to to the last point is, you know, good old fashioned police work. You know, ringing doorbells was needed. and it still is. I 100% agree. But if this, in fact, is the case, then you can do some forensic analysis in relationship to audio. You can bring in some folks to measure off sound, how far it travels at 4 a.m., and see if that's even a possibility. But that box needs to be checked now that this witness has come forward just to verify the validity of that potential. And so the fact that the individual, in my opinion, wasn't discovered immediately, then you have to ask yourself, well, what's going on in that

individual? Why they didn't come forward earlier. And so then you have to, you know, go down. Can I make a comment about that? I heard somebody, I heard somebody screaming in my neighborhood a couple months ago. It was about three or four in the morning. And I heard it, my husband didn't. And we talked about it for about three days. Did you morning. And I heard that my husband didn't. And we talked about it for about three days. Did you hear something? Did you not? Should we have called the police? It ended up being our next door neighbor had a schizophrenic niece he had taken in who ended up attacking him in the middle of the night. But we debated for a few days. And my husband's a judge. And we should have just called1 right away. So it doesn't matter how educated you are,

how smart you are. Witnesses doubt themselves. This is why child abuse is so vastly underreported. So I would wonder who in this neighborhood also knows something, but they don't want to get somebody in trouble who may not be, you know, a primary accessory to the crime. You know, it's interesting, Dr. Bethany, I agree with you. I was called 911. I don't even think it through because I know how critical it could turn out to be. What's interesting about this scream, the chef neighbor hears it's closer to 4 a.m. Now, if we start the timeline there, let's just go out on the ledge and we start the timeline

there, that could include or remove the validity of the white Hyundai Elantra, which by the way, Jackie is saying does not have a four-wheel drive. So could it get up the hills that Chris McDonough is showing us in his video in the interview room? Could it? What if it was parked in that parking lot behind the house? Could it have gone down the hills if it was already there? That's just something. Hey, Nancy, one other quick thing is when does the sun come up? When does the sun come up there? Because that's part of your timeline too, is whoever was watching this group. Oh, that's really good. Hey, Jackie or Sydney, just look up, you can do in Farmer's Almanac, what time was the sunrise on that day in Moscow? I'm going to get that, Dr. Bethany. I always look up the weather at the time of an incident. Dr. Priya Banerjee,

joining me, forensic pathologist, you can find her at Anchor Forensic Pathology. Priya Banerjee, joining me, forensic pathologist, you can find her at Anchor Forensic Pathology. Dr. Banerjee, we believe that the four murders by knife occurred between 3 and 4 a.m. The police didn't get there until noon for a lot of different reasons. Question to you. I know it's a science. I know it's an art determining TOD, time of death. But regarding blood, what condition

would the blood have been if the bodies, if they had been killed at, say, 4 a.m. at 12? Would it have all been coagulated? Would it have all been dried? And then we've got to think about how do you collect dried versus coagulated versus fresh blood? But how can you look at a dead body, dead by knife stabbing, and tell me TOD? Yeah, I mean, I think I have so many thoughts on this case, you know, regarding even crime scene stuff.

I'll come back to it. But to answer this question, it is an approximation. But I think if you work backwards, like when we, I always used to go to a crime scene. So I'm with you, Nancy. I like to see the body at the scene, sort of understand the environment in which the crime, you know, occurred, because that also plays into, did the person fight back? Or here we have multiple, you know, individuals, did they fight back? What might, who might have come first or second, third, fourth? But, you know, blood is a, you know, it's a fluid, but then it'll coagulate and dry. It really depends on if it's near an air vent, is the heat on, how much blood is pooled. I mean, so that it's hard for me to say,

but as time goes on, obviously you're going to have sort of crust forming, dried blood. And so all of that's important, but not just whether it's coagulated, but the pattern, right? If someone's dripping blood from person to person, the knife is dirty, slippery, the blood spatter pattern. And I mean, there's, you know, other experts on this call that are, you know, detectives that really deal with that. You know, all of that's so critical. And that's why I like to go because you really get a feel for the movement

of people within the scene. You're so right. And based on what Dr. Priya Banerjee is saying, forensic pathologist, I think that they can absolutely tell which two victims were killed first because their blood is going to be on the other floor as victim three and four. Guys, in the middle of all of this, we've got the elected coroner. She's not a medical examiner. She's not an MD.

It's a huge problem. Guys, she is now this female coroner. Sid, I looked it up like ten times. Her degree, the coroner, is in I want to say political science or art history or psychology no offense dr bethany

but um you've got to hear this i'm going to break out of our our order jackie go to cut 152 our friends at crime online the coroner who ruled four university of idaho students were stabbed to death is also a defense attorney who is now representing a convicted killer who was just arrested a mile away from the murder house for stalking his wife around the house with a knife the latah county coroner kathy mabot and her office mabot law are representing 39 year old ex-convict james curtis leonard Leonard of Moscow, Idaho. He allegedly assaulted his wife and her daughter and slashed himself with a knife. Leonard was arrested last week just a mile from the scene where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death on November 13th.

Okay, Dave Mack, let me try to understand what I just heard from you. Major, major issue. The coroner, who is not a medical doctor, who is not the medical examiner. Ah, thank you, Jackie. She majored in political science. And she is the one that went out on TV, which my boss, Mr. Slayton, always said,

don't speak to the press. Don't do it. If your jury hears it, they'll be thrown off the jury, the Pettit jury. She's representing a convicted killer. Okay, who did the guy kill, Dave Mack?

He actually pled guilty to manslaughter charge in 2007. I think he was saying it was self-defense and he got into a fight and killed a guy. But here's the thing, Nancy. You know, he was sentenced to like 15 years or whatever, but he ended up getting a suspended sentence. He spent a couple months in jail. That was it and got out.

And then but but but again he is still a convicted killer and he assaulted his wife and daughter and then slashed himself with a knife he chased them around he actually you know the little the girl is 15 years old he slammed her so hard while he's chasing his wife that she showed signs of a concussion was hiding under a table when police got there and he's arrested last week one that she showed signs of a concussion, was hiding under a table when police got there. And he's arrested last week, one mile from the scene where the four University of Idaho students were stabbed dead. Okay, Dr. Priya Banerjee, why do we have a coroner who's not a medical examiner spouting off on TV about the murders?

She's a political science major. She got her law degree degree she's representing a convicted killer at the same time she's talking about a murder case i know conflict of interest so coroner is that it's an elected official so she you know got her way into the position it's a paid political position and now she's out there trying to represent herself in the media. I don't think it's, I think it's malpractice to talk. I mean, ethical, the ethics are just crazy, but even to talk about an ongoing murder investigation and release all these details when there's no potential suspects really nailed down. I think it's ridiculous. Like, I don't know how the bar hasn't come down on her for that.

Yeah, I don't wish the bar getting up anybody's tailpipe. But in this case, there's a big problem. And if anybody is ever, ever brought to trial, we're going to have more problems on that. We got another problem, guys, as if you didn't already know that in the investigation. No fault of the police, okay? So just get off their tail for a moment. It's about the food truck guy. As many people say, the hoodie guy.

If you could just refresh everyone's recollection, Cheryl McCollum joining me from the Cold Case Research Institute. Who's the hoodie guy? He's the guy in the background when you see Kaylee and Maddie. They're ordering food. They're talking to some friends. He's in the background. He's not talking to anybody.

He's not ordering food. He puts his hood up. He puts a baseball cap on. He's kind of trying to shield his face. When they leave, he leaves. And so he's just very suspicious. And I believe Kaylee's sister is the one that found the video in the first place. So it didn't look right to her either.

Chris McDonough joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation. I found him in his podcast, The Interview Room. Chris McDonough, where were the food trucks as they relate to 1122 King, the murder scene? They were downtown at 313 North Main. So it's about, you know, just under three miles from the residence where Kaylee Madison, Zanna, and Ethan were. Okay, now according to police and anybody, Crispin, Brandt, McCollum, Marshall, McDonough, Mack, jump in if you have anything that could help us on this guy. We have been told, and I don't know that I believe this, that the food truck guy, the hoodie guy, has left the country. Okay, I don't believe in coincidences, but take

a listen to our cut 148, our friend Les Trent. You're looking at enhanced video of the confrontation between two of the University of Idaho murder victims and another student at a food truck. The time, 1 30 a.m., just hours before the murders. Kaylee Gonsalves and Madison Mogan stopped for mac and cheese after partying at a nearby bar. Everybody seemed, like, in good spirits. Nothing seemed off. And then they start interacting with a couple other people. They're waiting for their food.

Now look at this. Video shows Madison pointing at a man in a hoodie who appeared to have followed them to the truck. We had the video and audio from the clip enhanced, and you can hear her using an expletive. Blank you, mister, she says. Okay, so you hear her saying F-U. Why is this significant?

Take a listen to our cut 149, our friends at Inside Edition. Police have already announced they have cleared the young man in the hoodie. Audio engineer Anthony Nelson enhanced the audio for Inside Edition. What do you hear in that instant? She says, f*** you. So, was there an argument?

If so, what was it about? Kaylee's parents say in their opinion, some of the individuals have been cleared too prematurely. Now, according to some reports, the so-called hoodie guy was kicked out of fraternity and has left the country. We don't know if that's true or not. But as you all know, evidence of flight leaving the scene of a crime can be, you know, evaluated by a jury. But yet police, do they not, Dave Max, say they cleared this guy. And you hear the parents stating some individuals have been cleared to prematurely. What do we know about this guy? We know they cleared him really early.

I mean, this was something that as soon as that video came out, they were like within 24 hours saying they'd already talked to everybody there in the video and that, you know, the hoodie guy that had drawn everyone's attention was clear. That's what we know about him. All the other information that we could possibly gain about that, the hoodie guy, is just that. It's just a rumor of of hoodie guy we don't really know who he is what fraternity he was supposed to be a part of whether he had been kicked out or left the country i would not equate getting kicked out of a fraternity with wrongdoing you can get kicked out of fraternity for not paying your dues okay so that is irrelevant to me him leaving town quickly

i will say jump in well I will say. Jump in. Well, I will say if this is a serial killer that killed these four young university students, they're not the brightest bulbs. And when we talk about them as if they are like, oh, one way in, one way out, you know, surveilling the property. But often serial killers have something called scoptophilia. That is a perversion with looking. Looking, hunting, like hunting, pecking, gathering. They really fixate on one people or a group of people, and they begin to fuel their sexual and their sadistic fantasies through looking. So I would think that somebody who is that perverse and is that preoccupied with killing is not going

to rise to the level of being in a fraternity. They're really not. They're going to be in a very low wage menial job. And that's really where I began looking as I as the police. Well, I hear your reasoning, Dr. Bethany, but let's not forget Ted Bundy was very likable. That's true. He was a law student. I mean, you've got the outliers like BTK, Bind, Torture, Kill, who was a dog catcher. But he also, I think, wasn't he a deacon at his church? He had a wife and children. I don't know.

I think they assimilate. Chris McDonough, what, if anything, do we know about the food truck guy? You know, I don't think we know a whole bunch about him, Nancy. And I think the PD early on, you know, when the rumors started swirling around him, I'm assuming they contacted him right away. And I think, you know, proper protocol would have been grab a swab pretty quickly. And then through rapid DNA, they may have eliminated him through that process.

And that's why they came out so quickly and said, hey, this guy's out of the circle. And that's about all I know about him. The interesting thing, going back to the crime scene for a moment, is in the back of the house, there is a, like a cinder block. There are a couple out front, but there's one back by a back window where, you know, if you think about the house where it's five women, you know, college students who are staying there, and there's this block that's underneath the window next to the window that has the screen off of it. And when I was standing back there, immediately what came to my mind, you know, through past experience was, is this, do we have a voyeur here somewhere? And has this been, that fantasy been building? And then, you know, he he, you know, executed the these, you know, targets as a result of what he's been, you know, thinking about for so long.

You know, I eat, you know, BTK Dennis Rader. Is that in play here and that was one of the thoughts that i think should be you know considered as we look closely at that crime scene from the exterior in not from the interior out chris mcdonough you said a cinder block was below one of the windows that you saw without a screen was the cinder block in a position that someone could have stepped on it and gone in the window yeah or they could well not necessarily use it as a tool to get into the window, but necessarily as a seat. Or to use it to look around the blinds and that type of stuff.

Was it in a position they could have used it to boost in? Or was it further away? No, it's up against the building, and you can see it in the video. Wow. It didn't look right. Let me put it to you that way. it's up against the building and you you can see it in the video and wow that was it was just it didn't look right let me let me put it to you that way okay because i had a cinder block right outside my dorm room so i wouldn't have to walk all the way through the lobby because it was a long walk to get out of my dorm i just go out the window on the cinder block don't tell anybody at

valdosta state but that said i think i heard uh who was that jumping in? Was that you, Cheryl, or Dr. Bethany? Well, I was jumping in about the idea about this perpetrator being a voyeur. That's what I was trying to say about scoptophilia and why I mentioned earlier that these were four beautiful young people who had so many pictures of themselves. I mean, these were young people who were relating to each other, engaging with each other, going out and partying and then meeting late at night and having food together. And I think there may have been something not just about the individual victims, but the interrelatedness between all of them. Got it. Got it. You think you targeted all four. I understand.

I'd like to jump in about something that I often practice as a medical examiner, which is when I go to the scene, you know, we're all human, right? So we have to notice what doesn't fit, i.e. the cinder block. Like, why is it there? You know, I think that's, these are like big questions that I have. And my understanding is the back of the house,

that parking lot. Hey, Nancy, I'm going to drive you crazy, but I'm going to mention the dog again. That dog was put in the bedroom that was no longer being used. Who would know that unless it was somebody that had already cased that house and understood that to be true? When that dog was possibly led into that vacant bedroom by the killer and the door shut, most people, if you're going to lead a dog like that, you do it by their collar. That is the reason when you take that dog and let somebody come pick it up, you no longer have that collar, which you could have gotten some DNA off of, possibly. Yeah.

That's not driving me crazy. I love every single thing that you've just said. But, guys, I want to clear something up about the hoodie guy. In the last days, Moscow police state that they don't deny the guy has left the country. They say, quote, they are aware of the rumors. They did not deny or confirm them. And they also say the person in question continues cooperating.

That's all we know. And remember, their duty is not to us on the outside. Their duty is to solve this case. Chris McDonough joining me from the interview room. Chris, is there anything else that stuck out in your mind other than the cinder block? Well, you know, Nancy, when I was walking around, you know, out on the public street, and I was, you know, just kind of taking it all in, I looked down by the trash cans out front and there was a black glove and it was partially

covered by snow. Immediately, you know, the red flags went up in my mind. It's like, okay, you know, there's a glove here and, you know, I don't know who it belonged to, how it got there, how long it had been there, but it just another anomaly that just didn't look right. So I got hold of the officer who was sitting there at the scene and, you know, asked him to come over and I pointed it out to him and he went and in his reaction was, wow. And I said, yeah, you know, I'm retired homicide guy. You probably want to, you know, collect that. And he took some pictures

of it and said, I'm going to tell our csi folks well come to find out there is pictures of that glove within the first couple of days you can see it behind the trash cans in the front and this was a couple of weeks later that you know i saw it and i'm i'm thinking to myself, okay, well, how did this thing get here? Is the, you know, is the suspect, does this even belong to the suspect? Does it belong to a neighbor? Does it belong to one of the victims? I mean, we don't know.

But I thought it was an anomaly that, you know, just, again, did not look right. Man, you're giving me a bad feeling, Chris McDonough, as if I didn't already have one with four dead bodies. Guys, the tip line 208-883-7180. Repeat, 208-883-7180. Also, the feds have set up a video tip line, so to speak, where you can upload any video or photos, your ring doorbell, your cell phone, your anything that may help them, which was pretty brilliant, at FBI.gov slash Moscow, Idaho. FBI.gov slash Moscow, Idaho. We pray for justice. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.