Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS: Bombshell Announcement

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Idaho police taking a step back from their comments that the four University of Idaho students killed in their bedrooms, were targeted.  Originally, comments were made by investigators that the public "will just have to trust us," that the evidence collected indicated that the students were the intended victims of the murders and that the public at large is safe. Now, in a released statement, the Moscow Police Department says these comments came from a miscommunication with the Latah County Prosecutor’s Office, and that "detectives do not currently know if the residence or any occupants were specifically targeted but continue to investigate."   Last night the University of Idaho held a vigil in honor of the student. Several hundred people attended.  TIPLINE: Moscow Police Department [phone]  Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA), DrBethanyMarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Stephanie Pagones - Crime Reporter, Fox News Digital, Twitter: @steph_pagones  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As droves of students and others gather together to mourn four University of Idaho students slaughtered in their sleep. The question remains, who's the killer? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

Listen. An eerie silence inside the Kibbe Dome before tonight's vigil. The sound of buzzing and beeping metal detectors made more noise than the thousands of students who stood on the field to honor the life and memory of Ethan, Zanna, Kaylee, and Madison, who were found stabbed to death in this home off campus 17 days ago. Candles weren't allowed inside the Kibbe Dome, so students instead lit up their phones as the names of each student were read aloud during a moment of silence a pillar of light representing each life lost we don't know how long this investigation will take and we don't

know the why behind this horrific act but what we do know is we will all go through this together Xana Cronotals family was not here tonight and you know the elephant in the room obviously the killer still out there. But were they here tonight at this vigil standing alongside students? That's a question some people are wondering. You're hearing our friends over at KREM. But the big question, even touching on the vigil, is a bombshell just dropped by Idaho police. Take a listen to our friend Brian Enten.

We interviewed the prosecutor. He said that one of the victims was not targeted, that the residence was targeted, and then today said something totally different to a different reporter. We've been trying to figure it out, and I just got an email from the police department saying that this has been an internal miscommunication,

and I want to read this. This is a quote now by the prosecutor. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. We want to let you know that there was a miscommunication between detectives and my office to clarify investigators do not believe the murders were random. But we cannot unequivocally state the residents or any occupants were specifically targeted. I apologize for any confusion. And then it goes on to say in big, bold letters, correction. Conflicting information has been released over the past 24 hours.

The prosecutor's office stated the suspect specifically looked at the residents and that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted. We have spoken with the prosecutor's office and identified that was a miscommunication. Detectives do not currently know if the residents or any occupants were specifically targeted, but continue to investigate. OK, this is a big deal. And it was not an, I quote, internal miscommunication. Multiple people within the police force and the DA's office has said these four murders were targeted. One or more of the college students were the target of a, of a killer, a knife killer. That's not a miscommunication.

This is a change in forensic strategy. With me, an all-star panel. Before I go to crime reporter with Fox News Digital, Stephanie Pagonis first. To Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of the hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is a seismic shift because if the attacks were not targeted, that makes the killer much, much more a needle in a haystack. Yes, it does.

And that population at that university, Nancy, it certainly does because now you don't know who you're looking for. Can you narrow it down? Possibly. But you know, there's does, because now you don't know who you're looking for. Can you narrow it down? Possibly. But, you know, there's been look and hear me right here. When you put this kind of information out, that turns all eyes. It turns all minds toward a particular type of person that they're looking for. And that even extends out to the individuals that they might be seeking information from. Oh, they're looking for a targeted person. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down,

slow down. Yes, yes, you're right. And back to the, let me go to Stephanie Pagonis real quick. Crime reporter, Fox News Digital. Stephanie, thanks for being with us because much was made about the vigil. Why is the killer there? If it's not targeted, he's not there. If he's not expected to be, the only way that the killer, if it was targeted, would be noticed in his absence is if he was expected to be there. You know, like when a husband kills a wife and he doesn't show up for the funeral. That's really obvious. But in an untargeted attack, that killer is not going to show up at a vigil. He's long gone. So I was actually there last night.

And not only were, like you said, there hundreds of students there, but there were also what appear to be undercover police officers in the crowd. But one thing, like you said, is walking back to this targeted statement changes so much about this case. Even from the start, police have said, and not at all to fear monger here, but even from the start, police have said that there was not a threat to the community because this was a targeted case. Now, of course, they later said that people should be careful and that is absolutely understandable but this changes so much and I just want to flag that exactly one week ago from yesterday on November 23rd,

Moscow Police Captain Roger Lanier told the press and the public during a press conference, he said we've told the public very clearly from the beginning that we believe it was a targeted attack. To be honest, you're going to have to trust us on that. So they wouldn't say why they thought so. Yeah, they're all pointing the finger now, Stephanie Pagona, saying, oh, yeah, this is an internal communication. I'm calling BS on that because people within the police force, just as you just pointed out, Stephanie, and within the DA's office, we're saying, hey, trust us, it's targeted.

Now, before we get crazy, I also want to state and agree or disagree. Dale Carson is with me. High profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville and also a former fed with the FBI, former cop as well. And a high crime area, Miami Dade, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, here's the thing. Targeted can mean a lot of different things. And let me harken back again to Ted Bundy. Yes, he targeted the women in the Chi Omega house, the girls, but he didn't know them.

When I say he targeted them, they were all of the physical type that he enjoyed killing. Within a certain age, of course, he did deviate. Within a certain age, he killed within his race. Many of his victims all had long, dark hair parted in the middle. If you look back at them, they had a certain look. So did he know them? No, he didn't even know their names, but he targeted them. Get it?

Well, that's exactly what has happened here. So my understanding of targeted is different it's like yours they were targeted because they were actually killed and these were killings this was not wanting them to have pain this was a killing they went in the person killed these people so this was not made to make them suffer as Bundy often did. So you're exactly right. But now they're switching the game on us. And now it's not a targeted attack.

It's going to be random. And so that does change the entire dynamic of who we're looking for. Oh, yeah. And that's certainly putting it mildly just got morgan before before when we thought it was targeted remember you and i were analyzing how do they know it's targeted was one body treated differently was one body staged i mean we're going through all of the possibilities right but not targeted oh it's not like you're going to the boyfriend the ex-boyfriend the creepy guy online that's following you tagging, the guy that's looking at your snap map.

Uh-uh. No. Then you go beyond that to the delivery boy. You go beyond that to the guy that sits in the back of your classroom. And then you go to the bus driver and the cab driver and the Uber driver and you go out and out and out. And suddenly you got nowhere to go. Got nowhere. With untargeted, it could be anybody.

Yeah, it becomes randomized. Hey, Nancy, something I find interesting here in reference to Dale's former colleagues with the feds. And notice the silence is deafening from the fbi at this point they've got you don't usually hear a lot from the fbi no you don't but they do okay well listen they've they have involved they have involved admittedly the behavioral sciences unit i don't know why you're saying admittedly like it's some kind of confession they put on the thumbs they put it out there so i think people are and rightly so they should be asking the question where is the fbi well the fbi many times will consult with

the locals i'm wondering if the locals are listening to the fbi or if the fbi is giving them information about what their profile joe scott you know what you know what what you're muddy in the water and i don't think right now the police need another black eye. But another thing, and Joe Scott, Stephanie Pagonis, Dale Carson, Dr. Bethany, you know I'm getting to you. I think that people are actually mistreating the cops right now. They're saying they bungled it. I don't think that's correct. In a multi-victim murder scene, the last one I worked on, there were four dead bodies on two floors. And it took us over two weeks to gather the evidence. And we knew who did it. We we knew who did it.

We already knew who did it. Another multi-victim crime scene I worked on had three homicide victims. And what complicated that is that it was outdoors. Now, catch this. Wait for it. I went back to the scene, well, practically every day. But it was well on a week before I went back to the scene, well practically every day, but it was well on a week before I went back to the scene and found another shell casing hidden under foliage. Yes, that's what takes so long and I just happened to

find it. I was just kicking around and I found it. I thought I just got chills remembering that moment. So, guys, claiming they bungled it is simply not accurate. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dale Carson with me, not only high-profile lawyer in Jacksonville, but today I have him along with Joe Scott Morgan to talk about the forensics. You've got blood on blood on blood. You've got to get the blood. You've got to get it to the crime scene

uncompromised. Then the scientists get in on it. They're looking through the microscope. They've got to analyze, is it one person, two people? Has it been compromised with dirt or hair? Has somebody stepped through it?

You've got to comb that place for fingerprints. This was a party house for Pete's sake. No telling how many fingerprints. And you know they're not bringing a maid in every other week. That's not happening. So how many fingerprints are in that home covering everything? This is a very complex crime scene consisting of four dead bodies on two different levels, three levels altogether to process Dale Carson.

I mean, the fact that they originally said it was targeted, I understand why they said that. And the fact they're now saying, hey, it may not be targeted. I understand why they're saying that, Dale. Well, look, when I taught crime scene investigation for the Bureau, here are the principles. The first is you make sure the bad guy's not there. Yeah, you'd never toot your own horn, would you?

Go ahead. No, no. The bad guy's not there. You make sure that anybody who is there is still alive. And if not, you try to fix that. And then the next thing you do is you expand the perimeter of the search as large as you can maintain control over it because that deals with chain of custody later when you're trying to prosecute the case okay hold on talk english to me man when you say for those of you listening you hear dale carson throwing out a

little lingo we're impressed expand the perimeter of search you want to speak plain english yeah well you want to control the brick biggest area you can to protect any evidence that you may later find in that area and from my perspective now that this is clearly not a targeted attack that comes from somebody watching the interior activity of that house from the exterior. And that puts us back on that hill. You said that on day one. You said they need to be looking at that incline, kind of like a hill right behind the house, that someone could have been watching the house from that hill. And some idgit, I don't know who it was yet, but I'll find out.

Stephanie Pagonis, a crime reporter at Fox News Digital, was whining that the cops didn't get cast prints of the vehicles before they were taken away. Well, that's idiocy. You get cast prints of tread marks when you don't know what the car is. They towed the cars, and I believe the cars belong to the people that lived in the house. The five people living in the house. Five cars were taken away. So they've been taken away for processing in a controlled environment, probably with Idaho State Police. So a lot of whining about what the cops are doing, like not taking cast marks of tires. You take a cast mark when you don't know who the car belongs to, like a getaway car. So, Stephanie, I also want you to clarify something.

I don't get that cops are saying necessarily this is not a targeted attack. I understand them to be saying we don't know if it's targeted or not. I completely agree. What they seem to be saying here is not definitive in one way or another. What they're saying is they can't yet say definitively that this is targeted. Instead, they're still working to ascertain the information to be able to definitively say so. Now, as for the crime scene and even that incline that we discussed just previously, you know, I just want to flag that I'm here now. I'm here on the ground in Moscow, Idaho, and we have not only had one full day of snow, but we've had several. Now, I've been

told from the police department that they have already done extensive work and spent much time at the crime scene. But I do wonder how much the snow complicates things. Now, as for the vehicles, like you discussed, yes, they did tow five vehicles away from the scene. And the vehicles are now being placed at a city mechanic shop. So they are there in a controlled environment like you said so that if they need to go back and examine the cars once again they can do so i was told yesterday that the cars were already processed while they were at the crime scene but now they're being held as part of their ongoing search warrant so that if they need to revisit those vehicles they can and

very quickly joe scott i think the reason they are taking the vehicles, and there's really no way to put this delicately, for all I know, the perp came up and took a leak on one of the tires, watching the house. He may have touched the car. For all I know, one of the girls may have given the killer a ride. That's why they have the cars. I don't think the cars are connected to the murders,

but they're going to be processed. And how does the snow affect the scene on that incline behind the murder house, Joe Scott? Well, obviously the snow is going to obscure anything as far as footprints and all of that is concerned. You know, we know that snow covers up the leaves and the foliage. But the way you said it sounded so much more scientific. Okay, go ahead. Obscure. Well, yeah, it's going to cover it up so that they're no longer visible. I hope that. But can you process it?

It's very difficult. Now, you can process it. There's a difference now. You have, you know, when this thing first happened, Nancy, there wasn't snow on the ground. So if you have an underlying footprint out there at that time, you would have had to have captured it then. But now you've got a layer of snow on top of it. Now we can get footprints out of the snow. That's not what's going on here.

Now the snow is obscuring. It's hiding. So if you didn't get it the first time, it's going to be very difficult to get it now because now you're going to have no. Yeah, basically you're screwed. I'll interpret that for you if you didn't already process that scene that area uh a viper's nest i think as dill carson may have called it at one point where the perp may have been watching them much as bundy would watch his victims i spoke to one of his surviving victims and when she was attacked oh my stars jackie what was what was her name i loved her so much she was attacked, oh, my stars. Jackie, what was what was her name? I loved her so much.

She was a dancer and he was watching her through her window, go through her dance routine. And he came in and beat her senseless. She survived. Oh, by the way, he left her permanently deaf. That ended her Broadway aspirations but she went on to become a dance instructor for the deaf believe it or not uh wasn't she at cadet um anyway Cheryl Thomas right Cheryl Thomas hold on wait a minute you're making me lose my thought you know it's very easy to do. My point is, back to what Dale Carson was saying earlier, if this guy had been watching them the way Bundy watched some of his victims through the window, there may have been trace evidence left there. But the snow, if they didn't process it before it started snowing, they're screwed.

Jump in, Dale. Look, we're not necessarily looking for trace evidence or fiber evidence or microscopic evidence. When people do things like this, they tend to leave things by accident. A bullet falls out. There's some piece of their clothing that's left there, a large piece that you can see. Or you go to the scene and you kick up the leaves and you find a bullet casing. That's what we're looking for. It was a knife, man.

There's not going to be a bullet casing, but I get your drift. I'm talking about when you found one. Yeah, that's exactly how that went down. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me, psychoanalyst to the stars, joining us out of Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I got several questions. The first one being, what does it tell you about the killer that they may have been just watching the victims through the window? Because you know, I mean, Jackie, remember when

we looked at the crime scene, you could look straight in some of the windows especially the sliding glass door and if it's at night and they're in there in the light walking around cooking probably partially undressed like everybody does he's probably watching that so what kind of a person does that number one and number two this may not be targeted thing it's a big deal. Translation, you better get your children home from that school right now. Because if it's not targeted, if it's not the boyfriend, the ex-boyfriend, the connected person, that means it's random. And your child could be next. So Nancy, just to place this in context, I was thinking about, you remember Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker?

Oh, yeah. I was thinking about, you remember Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker? Oh, yeah. I was a student. I was in seminary when he was targeting women in the larger Los Angeles area. So I had three roommates. Did he cross racial bounds? Did he kill within his race? And he crossed racial bounds and age bounds from very young women to the elderly. But it was mostly women. I think one male victim.

So my roommates and I, we would literally tie rope and twine and everything we could around our windows at night because we were so terrified that the night stalker would come and get us. So I'm thinking about this university campus and if the police say, hey, it's targeted, they're like, okay, one of the

girls had a stalker. So it's not going to be me. I can continue to go to my classes. I can call my parents. I can live my life. But when the police say it's not targeted, oh my God, this was a serial killer. He was looking through the windows. He was checking them to see if he was their type, because we know serial killers have types. And in this case, the type could have been, you know, white. Hold on just a sec, Beth. Sidney, pull up for me a picture of Bundy's victims. I've seen and studied very carefully this menage of all the victims and oh yeah okay i got it i wanted to make sure i was talking about the right thing yeah look at that one over at the right sid they're all with the hair the long straight hair parted in the middle white females go ahead dr

bethany okay so so bundy bundy had a type right what right? This is a serial killer whose type is blonde women, long curly hair, beautiful, wearing the hip jeans that young people wear these days. I've been looking at all their Instagram photos. Beautiful white teeth, friendly girls who kind of hug each other and sit on each other's lap, sleep in each other's beds because they're besties. You know, the type is not just how they look. It's how they maneuver in society. It's how they relate, how they engage. He has formed relationships with these victims in his mind if he's been looking through their windows. So think about the mass hysteria that's taking place on this campus.

Every young woman and man, because a young man was killed, is going to be thinking, is somebody looking through my window? Am I his type? What's on my Instagram? What is on my social media? Because serial killers don't just look through windows anymore, right? They can look at social media profiles. They can do all kinds of things. So I think in this moving from targeted to not targeted, the police are also saying, don't think it's just these girls or one girl who had a guy who had a strange fascination with her. It could be anyone. So the psychology on this campus, as you said, parents are going to want to be getting their kids home. They're not going to want to be there anymore. Guys, take a listen to Brad Garrett,

former FBI special agent, speaking to our friends at GMA. If there's not an immediate connection, you have to go to sort of a wider circle. You would look at, for example, maybe or maybe not somebody older. I only suggest that because this crime appears to be very focused and the person had a comfort level in the house. And so as a result, you start looking at sort of relationships that really aren't tight with these kids. Somebody they met occasionally, somebody that may have come to the house to attend a party. Apparently this was a big party house. And so that makes it more difficult. Less connections makes it more difficult many

times to solve a crime. He's so right. Let's listen to more of what Brad Garrett says. If it's a, if somebody that's done this before, I mean, people who do this kind of stuff get a big thrill out of doing it. Now we don't know if it's that type of person, but it could be something like that. The idea that you kill four people just tells me that this was sort of driven by something you intrinsically wanted to do, less so than maybe one student mad at another student. You know, here's the dichotomy. Stephanie Pagonis, I see a conflict in rationale. Stephanie Pagonis, crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Hold on. Let me see if I can verbalize this correctly. Okay. The fact that this person killed four innocent victims generally in their sleep or in bed would suggest it's not his first offense. You don't go from zero to 120 MPH just like that. On the other hand,

we're not getting a hit in CODIS or APHIS, DNA repository, fingerprint repository, which if there had been a conviction in the last 15, 20 years, he would be in that databank. See what I mean? That is an inconsistency that must be analyzed and scrutinized very carefully. One, methodology would dictate this is not his first crime. But he doesn't have a record. That's why VICAP is important. That's the Bureau's Violent Apprehension Program.

It takes every one of these similar cases, puts them into a private database with the Bureau about knife, gun, weapon, location, all those things to connect all these dots in a way that allows us to know that some guy in Southern California did this two years ago. Or Stephanie Pagonis. It could be simply a mathemane. Not being an inconsistency. It may be.

It's very possible that the DNA fingerprints have not all been processed yet. So we don't know if there's a match in aphids or codes. Yes, that's correct. In fact, I just spoke to police yesterday who told me they had not received all of their crime lab results yet. They had received some and they had begun examining those results, but they were still receiving them. And I asked specifically about DNA and the presence of any foreign DNA, being that which belonged to, you know, someone who wasn't the four victims or their two roommates, and police have not responded. They also have not responded to a question of whether any of

these surviving roommates might have had another guest who was over at the time. So there are still questions out there regarding the DNA that was recovered from the crime scene. And whether police don't have the answer or whether they're choosing not to provide the answer is a different question in and of itself. I don't think they've processed it yet. I don't mean haven't processed the home. I think they have done that and they're closing that down, but I don't think it's all been analyzed. Here's another thing that we're just learning and anybody jump in because I have some ideas about what this means forensically. And a lot of people are talking about the vigil today and I appreciate that, but unless I can get evidence out of it, I'd rather forge forward on the probative value of any minute detail that could help catch the killer. We're learning that

Kelly Gonsalves and Madison Mogan were in the same bed on the top floor, level three, Kelly and Maddie. Second floor, Ethan Chapin and Zanna Cronodal. They were together on the second floor, level three, Kelly and Maddie. Second floor, Ethan Chapin and Zanna Cronodal. They were together on the second floor, probably in the same bed. The survivors, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, were both sleeping on the first floor. That gives me a lot of information. That tells me why the survivors didn't hear anything. The four victims were sleeping in just two beds. They were all together in two different rooms on upper levels. No wonder they didn't hear anything. But Joe Scott Morgan, the fact that you've got two victims in one bed, we think two victims in another bed.

That tells me something. It does. It tells you that they're not spread out over a large area. It wasn't sneaking door to door like in a horror movie. No. No. And if you can, if the perpetrator was targeting anybody, I hate to use that word now, but if they walk into the door.

It's radioactive to say that now. It kind of is. It's a matter of convenience at that point in time, isn't it? Because you've got the victims. I still don't get something though, Joe Scott. What's up? You go in to one room. You find your victim.

You kill two of them. Why do you go on up to the next floor? Why do you do that? It seems risky to me. I was just actually talking about this with my wife over coffee this morning. Bundy did it. You're talking about the two victims downstairs that were not touched. Did did this individual did this individual think that they were pushing the boundaries at that point in time decided to get out?

Because I think whoever did this had familiarity with the with the location. And so why would you go up a staircase and eradicate to us? Heard a dog barking. Why are we assuming he went up a staircase and eradicate two people? I mean, he could have just heard a dog barking. Why are we assuming he went up the staircase? Perhaps he was hiding at the upper floor of the house. Good point. Yeah, Doug Carson brought that up earlier. Perhaps this was a part of his creepy, creepy killing fantasy.

I am assuming that he went from one floor to the next, regardless of where he started. And that is risky. Why do you kill two people in bed and then go, hey, there's some more people to kill. I'll run down there. That's what Bundy did. Well, because you have a lot of familiarity. Killing people. Bundy had never been in the Chi Omega house before.

But he knew there were a lot of girls in there when you look from the back of the property into the building you only see two floors and so if you're out there watching for a period of time exactly you may not have realized there was that bottom floor yeah hey haley in the studio can you show that three levels what dale carson's talking about if you're on the sliding glass door level that's your point of entry you don't even see I'm calling it the basement but you've got a ground entrance to it you don't even see that so Carson can be right Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, now another theory has reared its ugly head. The possibility of an incel, an involuntary celibate. Listen to Jonathan Gilliam. He also is a former FBI agent,

and he's being interviewed on Fox. I'm pretty sure that this was a young male, somebody who could get into the house and get out in that neighborhood without being seen. I don't think it was two people, because the more people you have going into that house, the more likely it is that they were gonna be seen. So I think it's one male, young enough to have been in that neighborhood. I think the potential is that they entered from the second floor,

because the first floor was never disturbed, and there's also a wooded area behind that house. But here's an important thing that I think people should realize this is probably not the first time that this person did this yeah he's right or did something similar some type of crime uh to go from again zero to one jump into scott okay we know that two of the victims had been at a fraternity party I checked this out The distance from that particular fraternity house To the location of the crimes

On foot, walking on a sidewalk Is half a mile Did you know that from the location of the backside of the fraternity house To the location Is about 200 yards It's not that far away and if you go through the woods with fraternity parties the way it works that you know i'm a university professor the way it works now is that you have to have a guest list of everybody that's going to come in yeah and at

least at our university and and you can only get in animal house, right? If not, it's a brave new world now, Nancy. They control the door at these points. And so you would have a guest list. I'd like to know if the party that they were having that night was a scheduled party, that it was approved by IFC or whoever it is, or if it was just a random gathering of people. Because this is significant, particularly when you're talking about and we all know this is probably on greek row which we pointed out on day one i think i hear stephanie begone is jumping in did you hear what he said that if you cut through the woods not stay on the sidewalk or the road it's less than a football field length from the back of the fraternity houses to the murder house it absolutely is and i would

even venture to say i'm sorry for cutting you off there joe scott we don't care i would even venture to say it's less than 200 yards i am here and many students in fact even through the snow will cross through they won't take the sidewalks they will cross right through the grass to go from one side to the other not only are there fraternity houses up there, but there's also at least one sorority house as well. And I actually walked from the crime scene to Sigma Chi, the fraternity house. And on my walk earlier this week, I could see only one surveillance camera on the street. But there's been a question of whether or not the camera was installed before this crime occurred or after.

Because we have heard that many have since been taking more precautions such as installing surveillance devices. Hey guys, speaking of the whole... Was that Bethany? Go ahead. Yeah, hey, Bethany, take a listen to Jim Morade, Inside Edition.

He's talking right to your point. There has been a rash of killing sprees by incels. Elliot Rodger killed six and wounded 14 at the University of California Santa Barbara campus in 2014. Pretty Idaho victims were also in sororities and posted rambunctious videos of life in their party house. If you look at the online presence of incels in this country, they are very, very negative and hate-filled toward beautiful women in particular. I spoke with Idaho State Police Communications Director Erin Snell. Does an incel fit into the potential profile of this killer? We are not speculating on that at this point in time.

When it comes available and when it's appropriate, we will release that information. Okay, Dr. Bethany, do your thing. Well, the idea of the incel is that there's involuntary celibacy, right? That he just can't get a girl. And because of that, he hates girls. He's jealous of anybody who can get a girl. But incels, the way they kill is sort of unique in that

they do that fish in a barrel kind of shooting like we see in mass murders. They want to terrorize and take out as many people as possible. So on the one hand, these were beautiful young women and possibly one boyfriend of one of the girls. On the other hand, it was stealth. It was in the dark. No one else could see it. So there wasn't this glory mass shooting where the killer triumphs over everybody else, which I think is more the pattern of the incel. One of the ideas about the fraternity, you know, I keep thinking about BTK, not to lead us down the rabbit hole of other serial killers. Vine Torture Kill, Dennis Wright it or the dog catcher yeah yeah this guy which is really common with serial killers was hiding in plain sight he was married had children had

a family vehicle deacon at the local church you know he was sort of like the local Bethany before you say another word I can't believe you're bringing up Dennis writer buying torture kill because I woke up in the middle of night thinking thinking about Dennis Rader buying Torture Kill, BTK. Why did I wake up thinking about him in the middle of the night? What is connecting my mind with BTK to this? He would see his victims, but he didn't really know them. Yes. Go ahead.

What else in your mind? Well, for one thing, BTK staged. He had a passing familiarity with each one of his victims. He would kill other people in the home that got in his way. In addition to his target, he watched his victims. victims remember that was his route as a dog caster he would see them over and over and over that is right all that's just percolating in my head right now i want to hear your thoughts see my thoughts to piggyback on what you're saying um you know the idea of an incel or a younger person is a very different pattern from BTK where she was older.

He was integrated into the community. He was wearing what some researchers call the mask of sanity, acting normal even when he's not. I call it the indicia of reliability. He seems like a normal, reliable person. Oh, yes, especially being the church deacon, right? So I would, if I were the police, I would try to put out a plea to the community for people who have family members, men in particular, who may have been absent or missing that night.

Maybe a father who mysteriously leaves the house at midnight returns at five in the morning. I'm also thinking about Delphi with a pharmacy tech right under everybody's nose. There you go. You know, somebody, it had to cross somebody's mind that this guy was out there wandering around, quote, looking for fish the day of the double murders of Libby and Abby. So we go from the possibility of an incel to the awkward next-door neighbor.

Take a listen to Jeremy Regan, the law student who lives next door, talking to our friends at Court TV. I'm naturally an awkward person. Just my mannerisms, the way I talk. A lot of things have been online about, oh, when he was talking, he went from present tense to past tense in one of his sentences. Partly because everyone corrects themselves when they was talking he went from present tense to past tense in one of his sentences partly because everyone corrects themselves when they're talking and so just my natural person I'm a little bit socially awkward so I might smile at points that I shouldn't I might make weird hand movements when I shouldn't stuff like that and so people have sort of keyed into that and said oh he's a weirdo he must be this killer and so it's just stuff like that and so plus i think it's the amount of interviews i've done because i have a problem saying no

because if if it's not going to hurt me physically or financially i might as well help someone okay yeah it's not him does anybody agree with me a you don't see the killer very often according the limelight or doing interview after interview after interview. No, and listen to more of Regan speaking, the awkward next-door neighbor. I was home. I was asleep. I went to bed around 11.30-ish that night, and so I didn't see or hear anything. I didn't know any of them. I had seen them just walking around when I would take my dog out.

So I would recognize them, but I didn't actually know their names because I just don't stop and introduce myself to people. As I had mentioned in one of the other interviews, I usually carry a weapon on me now, whereas I didn't used to when I moved up to Moscow, just because it was such a safe community. Well, that's a lot of information that nobody asked. Yeah, it's not him. What about the theory of a person...

Nancy, he's not being cagey. No, he's just being awkward. I'm sorry, he's not being cagey. No, he's just being awkward. Sorry, he's just, he's not being cagey or evasive. He's throwing in so many details. What about the idea of a person that lives nearby that could have been watching them, possibly with binoculars or spying on them? Back to your Dennis Rader comparison, Bethany. Well, I remember reading some very interesting research a number of years ago about the demographics of men who kill university students. And they said, I think if I remember correctly, the men were usually in their late 20s, early 30s, single, low wage jobs. These are not university students who are going to a fraternity party.

These are creepers. Right. And that they would watch the victims for a long, long time before they actually killed them. So, you know, like I said earlier, it points to a perpetrator who is already developing a relationship in his mind. In his mind, which is important. In his mind. Stephanie Pagona is joining us from there in Moscow, crime reporter, Fox News Digital. They're wrapping up the processing of the home.

People are all over the cops' backs because we don't have a suspect yet. I'm not surprised we don't have a suspect. I'd be shocked if we did have a suspect. This is a painstaking ordeal, processing all of these hundreds and hundreds of exhibits and blood samples. What's next, Stephanie Pagonis? So even when the crime scene does get lifted, and we don't have a time frame as to when that will be,

other than that that is a discussion right now, but the crime will carry on. All that this means when the crime scene is lifted is frankly frankly, that they have everything they think they need from that area. And they will continue investigating. Like you said, Nancy, this is an incredibly complicated investigation. Because not only were there half a dozen people at least in the home at the time, but these survivors then called people to the home. More people came came which creates more forensic evidence that they have to go through another thing that i just want to add in terms

of what we were just discussing i think sometimes the reader or the listener might view this home as being in an area where there aren't many other homes nearby. And I just want to note that this is an area where there are several buildings or residences nearby. They may not be high rises and they're not high rises, but there are multi, multi-family apartments very close, easily within walking distance and within, frankly, only a few feet in some cases. Well, you know, Stephanie Begonus, that is very important. It certainly widens the suspect pool possibilities. Guys, the tip line 208-883-7054. We pray for justice. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.