Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Idaho Student Murders: COPS TARGET WHITE HYUNDAI

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

As the search continues for the suspect who killed four University of Idaho students as they slept, cops are asking for the public's help in locating a white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra. Police say the vehicle was near the off-campus home, and it's possible that whoever was in the car may have critical information. In the meantime, officers have begun to box some personal items to return to the victims' families.  Joining Nancy Grace today.  David Leroy - Attorney at Law (Boise, ID); Former Idaho Attorney General; Former Idaho Lieutenant Governor & Former Prosecutor (Ada County); Facebook.com/BoiseCriminalDefense   Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips    Jonathan T Gilliam - Former FBI Special Agent, Former Navy SEAL & author of the best-selling book, "SHEEP NO MORE: The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival;" Twitter: @JGilliam_SEAL  Stephanie Pagones - Crime Reporter, Fox News Digital, Twitter: @steph_pagones  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news in the search for a killer. A killer that slaughtered four Idaho University students, we believe, in their sleep. In the last hours, police have issued a bolo. Be on the lookout for a 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra. Why? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at KREM. Moscow PD saying today they're now looking

for a white 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Elantra. Police say tips and leads led investigators to look at additional information about the car being in the immediate area of King Street where the murders happened during the early morning hours of November 13th. Again, it's a white 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Elantra. Police say the license plate is not known right now. But still, this is a significant step in the investigation as investigators have yet to release any information about a suspect or suspects. And this is potentially the first significant piece of evidence they've released publicly so far in their effort to solve this case. Very interesting. This is the first real piece of evidence that the Moscow police

are releasing. This must be significant, although we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. In the last hours, cops announcing they are on the hunt for a 2011 to 13 Hyundai Elantra, white in color, tag plates, unknown. With me, an all-star panel, but first I want to go straight out to Stephanie Pagonis, joining us, Fox News digital crime reporter. Stephanie, when did this happen and what exactly did they say? Okay, so police have said that they have received tips and leads that have led them to believe they're looking for this white Hyundai Elantra sedan. Now, this vehicle, they believe, is from the 2011-2013 model.

What they say that is interesting is that they have seen this vehicle in the immediate area of the King Street crime scene. This came, what they say, is in the early morning hours of November 13th. This is around the time that the victims are believed to have been killed. Officials previously told the public and the media that the victims are believed to have been stabbed between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. You know, this is one of the many, many reasons that one of the first things you try to do after you secure the crime scene is try to develop a timeline. If the timeline is wrong, almost everything you do after that is wrong. It takes the whole thing. For instance, if they got the timeline wrong, then looking for this white Hyundai may be completely irrelevant.

Joining me again, an all-star panel, I want to go first to Jonathan T. Gilliam, former FBI special agent, former Navy SEAL, author of a hit book, Sheep No More, The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival on Amazon. Jonathan, thank you for being with us. A lot of buzzwords, I'm sure, jumped out at not only only me but you and my expert in forensics Cheryl McCollum also with me Karen Stark and David Leroy but interesting the immediate area of the murder house the crime scene at the time they believe the murders happened. Now, the only thing that I see there that could have a little leeway is immediate area. Was it right in front of the house? Was it a block away? But I

want to hear your analysis. Well, the good thing is with now that they have a vehicle that they're concentrating on, they can also look at the cell towers that are around there and they may not be able to identify specifically who was in that car, but they can kind of pick out when a cell phone moved to another tower and where eventually those cell phones went, if in fact they had one in that car. And I would think that somebody who has escalated to this point of killing, like everybody else, they probably do have a cell phone. And if they left it in the car, then it would have stayed there and then left with them. That would actually be almost a better circumstance than if the killer lived nearby and left their cell phone at home and the cell phone

had never moved. So if they can combine that car with any type of movement of cell phones around there, and then video footage, I think these are the types of things that and technologies that investigators can kind of key in on and start to triangulate the movement of certain people or certain phones or the vehicle to where they can start narrowing who this car belongs to. I think it's very important for them to incorporate all these different things. And I think you saw an example of this type of tracking with the abduction and murder that just happened in Texas a week ago of a seven-year-old girl. So now that they're at this point, if it is in fact somebody associated with the killing, like in Texas, they will be able to use the digital evidence to

quickly start kind of honing in on potential subjects. You know, it's really interesting, Jonathan Gilliam, that you bring up the case of Athena Strand. She is a seven-year-old little girl that was at home with her stepmother and she and the stepmom had a little fuss. So the stepmom believes she's going back to her room when in fact she went outside. A FedEx driver came along and got her, ended up killing her. Could you explain again for those listening? On day one, I suggested that a data dump which is a real pain in the rear end very exhaustive search of who based on a cell tower the cell phones in that area at that time that interval of hours say between 2 50 and 4 30 am. And it can be done really right down to the block.

So if you could explain that and how you would integrate that along with movement of the cell phone and ID in the car. You mentioned video, but Cheryl McCollum and Stephanie Pagonis, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've got any ring doorbell or any surveillance video. As far as I know, there were not many cameras around. And it's been a question lately of if there are cameras now, were they installed after these attacks happened? We've spoken to neighbors, some of whom have said that they decided to install them after the fact. Were you going to say something, Cheryl, on that?

Yeah, I was just going to say, I believe at some point they do have that car on video, and I think that's how they're tracking the movements of that car. I don't know that they've tracked the movements of the car yet or that they have it on video. I mean, I hope you're right. Jump in, Jonathan. So also with those ring cameras, before I say about the cell towers, those ring cameras, most people, I'm guilty of this myself, you get a ring camera. And then after the initial trial period goes away, people don't want to pay to have stuff recorded. So they just have the cameras set to alert. And so that's why you don't get a lot of recordings off of these cameras. Also,

you know, I worked, was part of the 2008 investigation of a guy who rode a bicycle all over New York and drove up to, at three in the morning coincidentally, and drove up to the recruitment center in Times Square, put a pipe bomb down, drove off and blew up the front of the recruitment depot. We've never caught that guy. And that's the most videotaped place in the world. So videos won't always show you what you want to see. However, if there are videos and they do show the movement of the car or of a phone, it

won't be the car, but it will be of a phone on these cell towers at that time, then you might be able to narrow it down. And your phones are constantly, whether you're using them or not, they are constantly reaching out. So it kills our battery they're communicating with cell towers and sometimes you can stay in the same place and they'll be pushed to multiple cell towers but that also can help because they can kind of triangulate where the phone may be but as you start to move especially in a place like Idaho where it's not

as populated you'll have a tremendous amount of cell towers in one place. And then as you get more remote, you're going to have less and less cell towers. So you'll be dumped off to the next one. And then down the road, you'll be dumped off to the next one. So that actually becomes not more specific, but you can tell that they're moving in a particular direction. So with the data dump, which you just described, I think that's a perfect example that they could give these families who seem to be very impatient with this,

and I understand why, but this is not like the movie. When we have computer screens, they don't make noises and things, and there's not colors all over offices, and evidence doesn't just get processed immediately. Going through these cell towers information, it is labor intensive. You've got to get a subpoena to go get the stuff, and then people have to physically go through this stuff and figure it out. Yes, it'll take a long time, which is what I said at the very beginning. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just tuning in, in the last hours,

Moscow police have announced they are on the search for a white Hyundai Elantra. That is SOP, standard operating procedure. And finding a vehicle connected to a crime has long been a way of cracking cases. Listen to this. He knew what he was doing. He knew what he was doing.

Exactly. But thank goodness he made a lot of mistakes parking in the driveway having somebody see him a neighbor took this photo out of her window of the suspect's red car in her driveway thinking it might have been stolen and dumped here it was 10 30 in the morning last Friday, minutes before the Winnick's home started burning. The neighbor who asked not to be named told me that she saw 28 year old Austin Lee Edwards dressed in a black trench coat and face mask walking with the 15 year old who lives in the house. They were getting into the red car. She was trying to mouth the words to me but nothing came out the neighbor said. I looked down and saw she was barefoot.

She was crying a little bit. She didn't try to make a run for it. One person spotting a red vehicle seemingly out of place and seeing a guy in a trench coat leading a barefoot girl to the car, that one car identification solved a triple homicide and the kidnap of a 15-year-old girl taken from her home. Her family murdered so the perp could rape the girl. She was found safely and he was apprehended and then shot dead when he opened fire on

police. Another well-known example is that of Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. Listen to Jim Norman, case agent. We found out that an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper had made an inquiry on Tim McVeigh within about 90 minutes of the bombing, Hanger had been heading south toward Oklahoma City based on a highway patrol dispatcher call for all available troopers to head to Oklahoma City to assist. He had gotten a discontinue. He was about 62 miles north of Oklahoma City, and he turned around in the median on Interstate 35. And as he's starting to head back north, he's passed by this yellow Mercury marquee that's missing its rear license plate.

And so he pulls that car over, and the driver gets out of the car, and Hanger has to order him to stay by the door of his car. You know, Cheryl McCollum joining me, and I'm going to Cheryl because not only is she the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Don't get me wrong. The Idaho case is not cold. But her job is to sift through forensics and come up with ways to solve cases.

Cheryl, I could listen to investigators talk about how they saw murder cases with the identification of a car. And I've done it myself time and time again in court. I can listen to that case investigator on McVeigh. McVeigh was one of the worst villains that have ever been put in the jail. He needs to be under the jail. And he was caught because he was missing a little piece of a light on his taillight. Correct.

Ted Bundy was stopped. Oh, you're right. Wait, tell the story, Cheryl. Don't just throw out a name. Tell me about how he was stopped. I love that. I love that. Go ahead.

But again, what it gives us, it gives us a name. That's not the Ted Bundy story. I know, but I'm leading up to the story. It's good that he got stopped running a stop sign because that gave us a name. It gave us a vehicle description. It gave us an address of where he was in his hunt for victims. So what I would do if this was my case right now, I've already pulled it up, Nancy. They have weather cameras in Moscow, Idaho. Oh, you are so smart. You're absolutely right. All that snow.

Yes. So Jonathan Gilliam is right. There could be video footage. Go ahead. Well, that's what I was saying. They're going to have video of this car, and they're going to be able to track its direction of travel and everything. Because I can look right now at D Street. I can see the whole intersection, the gas station.

I'm looking at Plouse River Drive, Line Street, Union Town. I can see every bit of it. Sherrod Road. These are all public. All they've got to do. You know, another thing about that, Cheryl, is that this was the murders occurred on King Road. Right. It's a couple of blocks off campus.

And I've been dumbfounded by the fact there seemingly are no campus security cameras around that area. Okay. Nancy, Dave Leroy here. Let me give you

a little context. Oh, good. Please jump in. Hold on. Let me introduce you. Dave Leroy, high-profile lawyer out of Idaho,

former attorney general, former lieutenant governor, former prosecutor, and so forth and so on. I got a whole page of his credentials. Go ahead, David. And remember, Jonathan, you're not with us as often. Please jump in. Don't be intimidated by Cheryl or Karen or David or Stephanie, our old hands. Jump in when you're ready. Go ahead, David Leroy. Nancy, you recall that four years ago, while campaigning on campus, I was actually at that residence, 1122 King Street. And the exact

location, the precise area is very significant here too, because I think it underscores how important this car may be. 1122 King Street is halfway up a hill and in almost a cul-de-sac type of area where there, even during daytime, would not be a lot of traffic. So for a vehicle to be moving away from or in the area of this almost dead-end King Street, halfway up a hill, off campus, but not in any kind of high traffic area or near an arterial, may be even more significant than a typical car moving at 4 a.m. David Leroy, I love everything you just said, and I love it so much, I want to relive it. Tell me all that one more time. 1122 King Street, when I was there four years ago, visiting the house was a little bit difficult

to get to. Hold on just a sec. Hold on just a sec. Sidney, while he's talking, can you pull up Google Map and get me an aerial on 1122 King Street? Because I want to see if it's still the same way as David Leroy is recalling. Okay, go ahead, David. on 1122 King Street? Because I want to see if it's still the same way as David Leroy is recalling. Okay, go ahead, David. When I was at 1122 King Street three years ago, four years ago,

you have to go from the main campus up an area across an athletic field and then turn right a couple of blocks. Okay, hold on. Up an area across an athletic field and then what? And then of blocks. Okay, hold on. Up an area across an athletic field and then what? And then you begin to go up a hill and it's almost a dead-end cul-de-sac where you move into the parking area of 1122 King Street. It is not adjacent to any high traffic area. There's not a lot of arterial type traffic there. So at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m., a car moving in that particular area is going to be far more significant than a car

moving someplace else in town, even at that same unusual hour. Even during daylight, there is very little traffic. Hold on, David. Which house is it? Show me which one you're talking about. Oh, I see exactly what you mean. I'm seeing exactly what David Leroy is talking about. There are not any big streets. Oh, Cheryl McComb, you've got to pull this up. Leading right into where the house is. I see exactly what he's talking about. It's kind of in a circle-ish of roadway.

Yeah. I see what you mean. There's not a lot of traffic going in and out there. So any movement in the middle of the night between three and four, I want to know who saw the car at three and four o'clock in the morning, but any movement of that car near 1122 king i mean i would say that's immediately suspicious i want to get that person and find out why they were there and um hey you know karen stark joining me renowned new york psychologist joining us from manhattan she's at karen stark.com karen with a c karen um I always kind of laugh inside when I'm watching a crime, a pretend crime show. Let's just pretend we're talking about CSI or Monk or something. And a car is parked on the street and they always get a ticket or something at the time of the crime.

Always happens there's something about that car that is noticed by somebody. And that car is always connected of the crime. Always happens there's something about that car that is noticed by somebody and that car is always connected to the crime. At the end of four segments, the case is solved and that includes commercial breaks because it's not that neat and easy. Just like Gilliam was saying earlier, it's not like that at all, but that has a grain of truth in it why are people killers perps so arrogant i mean it's like they're driving up to mcdonald's to get a big mac as curb service they park right there do the crime and they leave what what frame of mind is? They're not thinking about those kinds of details very often, Nancy. I mean, think about that whole story with Ted Bundy, not going to a stop sign.

Everybody's looking for this guy, and that's how they catch him. And I'm thinking about this particular scene, and whoever this is, a person or two people, they did not care about the fact that there were so many people and they took huge chances. Hey, you know what else it might be, Karen Stark? Not caring, arrogance or Jonathan Gilliam, recklessness. We've heard this as a, quote, sloppy crime scene. What does that mean? And then the recklessness of potentially having your car parked right outside.

It shows a certain degree of unpreparedness, not planned, which tells us about the mind of the killer. Impulsivity is what you're talking about. Yes, Jonathan. Right. As I'm looking at this map, I'm looking at the same map that you have. You have to realize that there's that's on a grade, a hill grade there. But there's multiple places that somebody who was going to think their way through an attack and be a methodical attacker, if they were driving, they would have parked their car in a vicinity just outside of there and walked through the trees and probably not been spotted. Even that area of trees behind where their house is, is a known path for people to walk to and from

school and up to those fraternity houses above that house. Actually, the Sigma Chi house looks right down on their house. So, you know, as I'm looking at that, there's so many places that that car could have been parked. And again, that's where if there are any cameras on any of those buildings, if there's cell towers anywhere around there, that the phone could be handed off to multiple cell powers. And that helps in triangulating where that car might have been. But this is a very interesting place because as Dave was explaining there a second ago, the way that closes off in a cul-de-sac, there's a lot of roads there that do the same thing. There's several roads that stop and anybody who goes into that is going to have to turn around and go back out. So what I would hope is if they find

cameras that they can look earlier in the day and see if that car was there earlier in the day, because there is a chance that if they were actually looking and stalking this neighborhood that they had been through there before and i would think that's probably the case guys take a listen to our friends at cbs there's a major development tonight in the murder of four college students in idaho detectives want to speak to the driver of a white 2011 to 2013 hyundai elantra with unknown license plate they say the occupants of the car may have critical information regarding the case. Also today, you can see police began collecting the

victim's personal belongings that they say are no longer needed for the investigation. They want to return them to their families. We are learning that much of the personal items in the home are being packed away. The families, of course, will want these, but what does that tell us about the progression of the processing of the scenes? Take a listen to Chief James Fry, Moscow Police. Tomorrow, me and my command team and other individuals will be going in to box up personal belongings of the people that live there. And we're going to be getting those items back to the families. It's time for us to get those things back that really mean something to those families and

hopefully to help with some of their healing. We have a lot of investigators investigating and, you know, I'm not tied into the investigation side of it where I'm physically interviewing people. And it's important to me. It's important for us as a department to go in and take care of the families and get the items for them so that they can have some of those back and some of those memories back that are fond memories.

And I'm a dad, I understand. I understand the meaning behind some of those memories back that are fond memories. And I'm a dad. I understand. I understand the meaning behind some of those things. It may be something that we gave one of our children or something. And we're just trying to bring some of that healing. Stephanie Pagodas joining us, Fox News Digital. What happened? Well, so yes, as Chief Fry just said yesterday, and even potentially today, they said there's a potential they could be back today. Chief Fry and several other police personnel went into the home and came out with several items that

we were told belonged to the victims. I want to stress that this is not every item inside the home or that belonged to these victims, but some that police said they have deemed clear to be removed from the home. The families were not present at the time, at least as far as I can tell from everything I've seen and read, but this was police removing items, packing them up in boxes, and putting them in trucks to haul them elsewhere. What do you make of it, Cheryl McCollum? I mean, I think after a month, if you're talking about some jewelry,

some clothing, some pictures, maybe some objects that are important to the family to get back because they were a sentimental gift or something. I mean, that's perfectly appropriate. Yes, I don't read anything into it one way or the other, except that they have managed to differentiate between what's important and what's not. Who's jumping in? Is that David Leroy? Go ahead. I would say that there is, of course, some opportunity for the defense in a case when one is brought to say the crime scene was damaged or tampered with. Hopefully they're being extremely careful and scientifically neutral on anything they do in there.

I agree with giving the material back, but it does raise a defense possibility for attack. I disagree. Once the scene has been secured and they have processed it, they should give all of that stuff back. As you know, I mean, of course, you've seen TV, right? Once a murder scene has been cleaned and processed, that house will probably be rented out to other people. But what you said is right, David Leroy. They darn well better make sure they're done before they tamper with that scene. Not only do we understand items are given back to the families as

they should be, to Karen Stark, that's sentimentally very, very important. It's incredibly important, Nancy, because think about it. When you lose somebody, I don't know about you, but I'm suspecting that when your dad died, you kept personal items. I know I did. And I slept for the longest time with my dad's glasses under my pillow. And it's just a way to try and hold

on to the person for as long as you want. It's really important. You're right, Karen Stark. And you know that I did. Can I say one thing about that real quick? Yeah. Before we move on. This is, and I'm always coming from the investigative standpoint, right? Which, unfortunately, it's hard for people to take, is a very unemotional and neutral standpoint.

And I've lost loved ones and I've felt the emotion, but when I'm doing investigation, I shut those things off. And I think in this case, what bothers me about them stopping what they're doing and taking the time out, they said for a second day, people are going to be in there collecting items

to get back to the family. That's investigators that could have been running the lead. That time in this critical stage that they are stopping and having to do a critical search, because they have to be very careful, as Dave was saying, in what they take and how they take it. Otherwise, it could cause problems later on. Guys, I know what Jonathan Gilliam was saying may sound harsh, but how are we to know the killer didn't come into the bedroom and pick up one of the girl's brushes or touch her thing sitting on her vanity? We don't know.

So the point is well taken. Harsh, but true. Another facet of the investigation we haven't heard a lot about and it's because suddenly focus was put on uh kelly gonsalves and her roommate maddie after kelly's father came out and stated that he believes kelly was the intended victim making the others, I guess, collateral damage. We don't know that is correct, but we do know that cops are now honing in on the movements of the other two murder victims, Zanna and Ethan. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. Police zeroing in on the movements of two of the University of Idaho victims, Zanna Curnadal and Ethan Chapin, the night they were murdered,

looking specifically at the hours between 9 p.m. and 1.45 a.m., when the couple was believed to be at Ethan's fraternity. Why are you looking for more information specifically about where Zanna and Ethan were in regards to his fraternity house? That actually seems to be one of the larger areas that we don't have a lot of information in. And so being able to locate what they did that night to maybe who they contacted,

maybe any routes that they took home, that would be important for the investigation. To Stephanie Pagonis, Fox News digital investigative reporter, what do you know about their movements that night? I'm talking about Ethan and Zanna. Right. So there have been for days, if not weeks, questions about where they were. You know, there are there's a piece of the puzzle that has is

still missing regarding their whereabouts. And police seem to be be concerned that these people who might have been with them might have been doing something else and they might therefore be fearful that if they say what they were doing, they might get in trouble for something else, if that makes sense. But police have made it very clear to me and even in their reports, they're just trying to figure out what happened here. They're hoping that could shed more light on what was going on, paint a bigger picture of what was happening. Now, we do believe that earlier in the night on November 12th, Ethan actually attended an event, a different Greek life event on campus with his sister. He is a triplet. His two other siblings did also attend the University of Idaho. So that does paint a picture. But as far as I know, and I'm not certain on this,

but there's a question of whether Xana was with him and if she wasn't where was she during that time that's a really good point what does this mean Cheryl McCollum well again you're trying to connect these dots who did they interact with you know when did they leave where did they go because you're talking about from nine o'clock at night to about 145. So almost five hours that their movements are unaccounted for. So we don't know if they came in contact with somebody, if they went somewhere and, you know, purchased something or went to another party. We don't know where they were for at least five hours. And that's something police want to know. And why do you believe it is so significant, Cheryl?

Because, again, at some point, these four people intersected with a killer. Was it before that killer entered the house? They're going to want to narrow this down. Did Ethan have a problem with somebody? Did they have a little argument with somebody over something? We don't know. We don't know if it's the food truck people. We don't know if it's the Uber driver.

There's all of these connections that we've got to check off before we move on. And again, the car is a great start, but you've got two other people that have nothing to do with the food truck or the Uber driver. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Not only are they zeroing in on the movements of Ethan and Zanna,

which there are gaps of hours leading up to the murders. We also are getting a little light shed on the claim that Kaylee Gonsalves was the intended victim. Take a listen to Kana Whitworth. Police also addressing information about the victim's manner of death after Kaylee's father said he learned his daughter's wounds were much more severe than her friends fearing Kaylee was the target please don't be my child that's the target police telling ABC News they have not provided the family with that information authorities also telling me they're not attempting to refute what the family is saying. Ultimately, they want to protect the integrity of this investigation. But as time marches on, Steve tells us he's been approached by a private investigator to help solve this case.

Okay, I'm trying to decipher what the Moscow police are saying. They're not refuting what Steve Gonsalves is saying, that his daughter's injuries were much more brutal and severe than the others, indicating she could have been the target. They're not refuting it, but they're also saying, we didn't say that. So what are they saying, David Leroy? Well, we've had a lot of trouble with this whole word targeting right from the outset. Originally, it was used to try to calm the public to suggest that this was a sufficiently targeted homicide for people involved, that the rest of the public generally in Moscow and on the campus should not be concerned. Then we got into trouble with,

for instance, a prosecutor saying that it appeared one person was specifically targeted. Then we backed off from that saying, well, we're not sure that either the residents or any person was targeted. So we've used targeted the word in a couple of different ways to try to generally calm the public and then to try to characterize specific evidence as to either a location or a person. I'm not sure that the word targeting has any use for us anymore. The specifics of who did what to whom and who received what is important, and apparently the police are not willing to say, as the dad did, that the wounds on one specific person were more significant to the point of being valid evidence as to who a target was inside the house. I think it's just the police being careful not to compromise the investigation. What do you think, Cheryl? I mean, again, Nancy, I think it's really

important that we understand what they're trying to connect. They're not just trying to connect these victims with somebody. Now they're, I mean, honestly, they're having to look at the dog. Why does the dog have no evidence? Why was the dog left alive? Why was the dog put in another room? Oh, interesting that you brought up the dog. Take a listen to ABC. Zanna and Ethan stabbed to death less than a block away at Zanna's home, along with Kaylee Gonsalves and Madison Mogan, who were found on the top floor. Two roommates survived, along with Kaylee's dog seen in this TikTok video. Authorities now say the dog was found inside the home, but in a separate room from the victims. How important is the behavior of the dog

in your investigation? We don't believe that there was any appearance of force entering to the home. And as well, at this time, we have not determined if the dog was inside the residence during the murders or not. What we do know is that the dog was inside when officers arrived. The dog did not appear to have any evidence on it. Okay, what, if anything, can you conclude from that, Cheryl? Well, again, the dog had no blood blood so the dog was not in the bedroom near its owner. The dog did not sympathize with the owner after death. That's very unusual so it says to me that that dog that loved and cared about her was nowhere near her. Maybe put in another room with the door closed or put outside the bedroom door and that door was also closed.

To me it's key that the dog was left alive. That tells you about the psyche of the killer. And again, you've got this animal that can't speak to you, but in certain ways certainly can. Are you suggesting that the killer may have put the dog away in a different room? I'm flat out saying that. Yes, absolutely. It reminds me of the case of Molly Tibbetts who went jogging and a big factor in the reasoning, the rationale of police about what happened that night was how she left her boyfriend's dog back at the residence. Just thinking through what we're talking about, let me circle back to the car. But Nancy, you remember Nicole Brown. Her dog was frantic. Her dog had blood all over him because he was going back and forth between her. I recall Akita very, very well.

Yeah. And in that case, police at some point started their timeline based on when neighbors heard the dog howling. Right. In the car, there are ways, there are entire units within metropolitan police stations that are devoted to finding stolen cars. Cars are very unique. The taillights, the front end, the slope of the rear or the engine cover changes every one to two to three years. One of the ways that cops can determine the year, the make, year, model of a vehicle.

To anyone on the panel that is familiar with that, jump in as to how they can identify this is a 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Elantra. What about it, Gilliam? I mean, this is really not just an art, but a science among police departments. Right. Well, this is, you know, actually, to be honest with you, this is probably one of the lesser technically advanced and kind of that old gumshoe police officer type of technique where the only

difference is we have camera cameras out there you can get a fuzzy picture of a car and uh the the usually the uh the automotive divisions where they do uh automotive crimes uh that's in the bigger cities but uh people who are who know vehicles very well can look at these different pictures. And as you said, every couple of years, they change something. And if they can just pick up on some of those aspects of the car, it's pretty much a comparative type of investigating and a knowledge base. And this is the other thing. When it comes to any evidence collection or going through the evidence, you have to have people who are experienced in this. And so when you're looking at these types of vehicles, they must have a picture somewhere of a vehicle that they're queuing in on this year. Otherwise, either that or somebody has said that they know somebody who has this year of a vehicle. There's another issue on the vehicle to Karen Stark.

I recently had a case where a car approached a crime scene at night. The witness was at least 30, 40 feet away. She could not see the make of the car. What she did see were the taillights. It was dark. And she said that they looked like two exclamation points on either side of the car. What it turned out to be, as I recall, was a Cherokee. And in the Cherokees of that year, there were lights going down the side of the car, either side, and then at the bottom near the tailpipe.

So in her mind, it looked like two exclamation points. Now, if you've stolen a car and you're using it for a crime, that's one thing. But there's something about the human psyche. They don't want to get rid of their own car. And if this Elantra belonged to a material witness or the perp, they may not want to get rid of it. I think it's interesting, Nancy, also that it's a decade-old vehicle between 2011-2013. It sounds to me like it would be the kind of car that a college student would take to campus. And what about that psyche I was asking you about, Karen Stark?

Of not wanting to get rid of your own car? Well, because you're attached to your car, Nancy, and particularly if you think that there's a possibility it's a college student. You wait such a long time to have a car. And if it's somebody impulsive, as we've been talking about, they're not even going to think out the fact that this car is something that they should get rid of because they're so intense on keeping their car and having their identity tied to the car. So that's a really interesting point. And also the fact that there's a possibility that they're talking about people in the car, not person in the car. So what does that mean? Were there two people that they're talking about more? What is it that the police are looking for. Guys, the tip line is 208-883-7180. Repeat, 208-883-7180.

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.