Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Idaho Student Murders: Killer Spotted Returning to Scene?

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

Moscow police continue to pour through hours of video related to the search for a white Hyundai Elantra that may be connected to the University of Idaho student murders. The car was spotted by an overnight manager at a gas station on their store surveillance video and turned over to cops. It shows the car passing around 3:45 AM. Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself"  Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips    Irv Brandt -Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs; Country Attache, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: "Solo Shot: Curse of the Blue Stone" available on Amazon in January; Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor   Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Worked over 300 Homicides in a 25-year career; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"    Dr. Priya Banerjee, M.D.  - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting,  anchorforensicpathology.com   Dave Mack Crime -Online Investigative reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the wake of the slaughters of four beautiful young students, University of Idaho. Right now, we're wondering, has the killer returned to the scene of the crime? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to our sound of Chief James Fry, Moscow PD. We have information of a white vehicle that was in the area, either during the time frame of the homicide or around the time frame of the homicide. And we are just wanting to talk to the individuals who are in that vehicle. They may have some valuable information for us. And we're looking for a 2011 to a 2013 Hyundai Elantra. So any assistance you can give us, anybody that owns one,

anybody that knows of someone who owns one or may have been driving one, if you could get ahold of us through our tip line or call us directly, we'd appreciate that. That tip line, 208-883-7180 now listen if we have all heard the chief begging for the owner of the Elantra to come forward thousands of miles away don't you know that the actual owner of that Elantra has also heard it why aren't they knocking on the police door but there's more. Before I go and introduce all of our guests, let me go straight out to Chris McDonough joining us.

Director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. You can find him at coldcasefoundation.org. I found him on the interview room online. Chris, I want to talk to you specifically about video that you found of a newscast. It was a reporter standing out in the snow and directly behind 1122 King, the murder house. You see a car similar to the white Elantra going right behind the house. And as you pointed out yesterday, you have to want to be in that location.

You've got to know the neighborhood one way in, one way out. Tell me what you saw on that video that you happened to catch. Well, you know what, Nancy? After talking to your team here on the show, I went back and took a look at some of the early footage from the news services that were there. And I noticed over the left shoulder of one of the news reporters, what appeared to be a white car. And I sent that into your team and said, can anybody take a closer look at this? This doesn't look right. And so that's where we're at right now. I thought it was really interesting

knowing sometimes the behavior side of these individuals, they may return and or could be in that environment. I want to point out, Chris McDonough, and to everybody on the panel, we all remember Scott Peterson. I can't remember if this was before or after he dyed his hair blonde. He would go, and police had a tracker on his vehicle. He would go back to the San Francisco Bay and look out over the water. What did he think? He was going to see Lacey and Connor pop up because that's where he put their bodies. He would go back and back and back to the scene.

Also, if you recall the case of Sydney Sutherland, just a stunning young woman out jogging and she was rammed by this farmer in the area who then molested and murdered her. And he also went back. He even acted like he was helping to search for her. So it's a common phenomenon that I don't understand. Cheryl McCollum joining me, forensic expert, founder of Cold Case Research Institute at coldcasecrimes.org. We've seen it a lot. I've seen it in my own prosecutions. Sure. It's pretty simple to me. They are getting something out of it, some sort of gratification. Like we all know arsonists love to go back and actually watch the burning.

They love it. Cheryl, I just said that before we started taping. I said arsonists love to do it. And here you are. It's an echo chamber in here. Come up with your own stuff, McCollum. But go ahead about arsons. But it's true.

Regardless of what it is, even at a homicide scene, when I get there, one of the first things I do is take pictures of the crowd gathered. Because I don't know who's in that crowd, but I know later on we're going to go through it one person at a time. You know who else always came to the scene? And I mean almost always, Wayne Williams. of you that have been living under a rock in a cave far, far away without any cell reception. Wayne Williams is credited with many of the Atlanta child murders. Then I would say maybe three or four other child murders. Well, they weren't children at this point. They were teens and older, were lumped in with him because the M.o's were the same but wayne williams murdered oh gosh at least a dozen at least a dozen young people in atlanta jump in i worked on a case

i worked the wayne williams case in atlanta yeah and we actually he was just over the top i know when we first started to surveil him, we found him coming off the bridge. He came up the hill. The bridge where the dead body was floating under it in the water. That bridge. That's what we're talking about. That was the problem. Yeah, you're right.

It was stuck. It was stuck in some reeds. Go ahead. You know, there's another point to all of this, and it is that the Bureau often put microphones on cemetery-grade tombstones. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. You know, there's another point to all of this, and it is that the Bureau often put microphones on cemetery-grade tombstones. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. I want you to tell that story because it's so true. Well, about Wayne Williams, we went to his house, but we didn't put him under permanent surveillance, and that night we learned later that there are boxes and boxes of material that were taken from the house, and we never found those. He would go back to the scene

and this is really interesting Cheryl you and I've talked about this before not only would he go back to the scene where he would dump a dead body he was somewhat of a media stringer. Yeah. In other words he would show up at events like a car crash and arson whatever and take video of it and then sell it to the news stations to to the big stations, the networks. Oh, there's a movie about that, Night Watcher or something like that. There's a movie about that. Thank you for your professional opinion, Dr. Priya Banerjee. Yes, there is.

Guys, you're hearing Dr. Priya Banerjee, board-certified forensic pathologist. You can find her at anchorforensicpathology.com. You are also hearing Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, but also former FBI agent, author of Arrest Proof Yourself at Dale Carson Law dot com. So my point is he was a stringer and he

would be at the scene of the crime. He'd get there sometimes before the police did and claim he heard it on CB radio, on the police man radio. So it's not unusual. Is that Cheryl jumping in? Go ahead.

I was going to say he had an actual press pass. And you got to remember, this was 79 to 81. There was no social media. So there was no better way for him to get an understanding of what the police knew and when they knew it because he was watching where they were searching. He was asking them questions because he was, quote, a reporter. Yeah, and Nancy, you know. Is this Irv Brandt?

Are we finally hearing from Irv Brandt, U.S. Marshal Service? Now listen, International Investigations, also DOJ, also Solo Shot author, that's coming out in January on Amazon. Also author of Flying Solo on Amazon right now. Jump in, Irv. Well, I was going to say something about, go back to the car, the white Elantra, that the chief of police was asking for more leads. And it occurred to me that they must have exhausted almost all their leads uh it's like you

were saying before if you had one you would call in if your neighbor would call in on you so they must have been inundated oh gosh yes they're saying they've got a fleet of analysts trying to wade through these leads but you know what i'm also curious about you're right or brant chris mcdonough i, I looked at the video that you identified and I see the car and it's going kind of fast. Yeah. Down the hill on a decline right behind the murder house. Tell me, and I really enjoyed your drive-through. Well, I don't know if enjoyed is the right word, but it was in-depth. For those of you that haven't looked at the interview room, you can find it.

I Googled it, and I found, I put in the interview room, Idaho. And there's a series of them, but this, they're all great. But this one really is fascinating because he gets in a car going very slowly, and he drives all the way through Moscow, turns left at the gas station, and takes you all the way up to 1122 King, where the four murders happened. And gives you basically a tour very slowly. And typically, I hate anything that's slow. Hate. But you have to have that for this.

Just like when you analyze a crime scene, you cannot rush it. It may take you days or weeks to analyze that crime scene, but you don't want to miss a thing. And he goes really slowly and points out, well, here's the gas station. They may have video and then they go up the hill and you drive through and you really see the murder scene and everything around it. So, Chris McDonough, what is that decline where we see the white, look like a two-door white, look very much like an Elantra. But that said, where is that decline? It's got to be right, it's right behind the house there what also is interesting uh nancy is the idea

that i think every one of us know on this call the minutiae details is really what puts some of the pieces the bigger pieces of these puzzles together and when i saw that car go by uh i realized you know i had not driven on that side It's the other side of, you know, the cul-de-sac area. So there's, there is another access road. But then I thought to myself, okay, you know, trying to put myself in the mind of the, of the offender, what was he or she seeing? And that was also a really good spot to sit because you have a direct shot, you know, visually into that home.

And that could also have fed a fantasy to where that individual now takes it a little bit closer. And maybe that cinder block comes into play later on down through the process of building into this play and this horrific crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Another question I have, Chris, so we see the white two-door speeding down right behind the house, the murder scene. As you pointed out earlier, there's only one way in, one way out, and you've got to want to find this spot. Right. In that snow, in that freezing weather, speeding down that decline. I found that really interesting. It's video like that, I believe, that's going to crack this case. And another thing, Chris McDonough, everybody jump in on this. Here's an example. Remember Robert Blake, may he rot in hell? There's no doubt in my mind he had someone murder his wife. No, there's no doubt in my mind that he murdered Bonnie Blakely, his then wife. The murder weapon was like, what, Cheryl, a block away and a dumpster? Because he was locked in,

he was wedded to that location. They had gone to dinner at Vitello's Italian restaurant. He left her in the car on this back alley, although he always parked in front of the restaurant, always his favorite restaurant, but not that night. He parked behind it in a back alley. So he takes his wife to his car, according to him, and goes, oh my goodness, I left my gun in the restaurant. Of course, the busboy that cleaned the table, nobody found a gun in there. He goes back in, sits down, has a glass of water, and lo and behold, according to him, in those few moments, in that little window of time, his wife gets shot in the car, and they find the gun in a dumpster like a block away.

Why? Because he couldn't leave the scene. He couldn't just drive away. He had to come in with this charade of pretending he was having a glass of water. He could not leave to dump the gun anywhere else. So what I'm saying, Chris McDonough, is that the killer could very well have thrown the weapon out the window. And we know which way the car is going. It's a possibility for sure.

And it should always be taken into consideration. They should run that area extensively with, you know, metal detectors and that type of stuff to make sure, you know, that possibility is taken out of the window. I could see it happening. I know a lot of people think that doesn't happen. It does. We are also learning at this hour that according to the father of Kaylee Gonsalves, we knew her wounds, according to him, were different than the other wounds. But now we're learning more.

Take a listen to our friend Morgan Norwood. The father of victim Kaylee Gonsalves is blasting police, demanding with a killer on the loose, officers release more information to the public. Steve Gonsalves saying they're just being cowards. There are girls walking around the street right now that deserve to know. He also revealed to Fox News that his daughter suffered big open wounds and that the killer used a strong weapon. I haven't earned the ability to grieve the way that I want to grieve.

I want to be able to have justice first. The family is now raising money to hire a private investigator. Detectives haven't said who may have been the target, but Gonzalves says his daughter suffered more gruesome wounds than the other victims. He is describing them as open gouges. Now listen to our friends at Crime Online. Steve Gonzalves said his daughter's injuries definitely did not match that of her best friend Madison Mogan's wounds. They may have individually died from the exact same thing, being stabbed, but there are more details.

They're not even close to matching. The knife slashed open Kaylee Gonsalves' liver and lungs, according to her father, Steve. The grieving father paid for a copy of his daughter's death certificate, which included some of the details of her injuries. But he doesn't know whether his daughter or Mogan were the targets. He said, I have my own suspicions. Now, elected coroner Mabot, when reached by phone, declined to comment on the information that she disclosed to González. I'm very surprised that the elected coroner didn't talk about that, too, since she's blabbed about every single aspect of this case. It's like a gumball machine. You put in a cord and all of a sudden all these gumballs start just falling out. There's no screening whatsoever before she'll blurt something out. Everything that's being

released could somehow be twisted and used by the killer somehow, some way, or some nut claiming they're the killer, and that that will throw the entire investigation off course. You just heard our friends at Crime Online. Take a listen to more. The father of Slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Gonzalves told Fox News Digital that the victims had big open gouges that were clearly the work of a sadistic male and called police cowards for not sharing more with the public. Steve Gonsalves said he asked the coroner, Kathy Mabot,

how many times the victims were stabbed. Now, this is what Steve Gonsalves claimed Mabot told him. She says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word. It was like tears, like this was a strong person, not like a stab. She said these were big open gouges. She said it was quick. These weren't something where you were going to be able to call 911. They were not going to slowly bleed out. Okay, number one, that is throwing me for a loop. Did you hear what she says to the victim's dad?

That they were big, open gouges. The work of a, quote, sadistic male. Why, number one, why is she blurting all this out? Jump in, Karen Stark. I can't think of anything more horrific than speaking to the dad of the victim and describing in detail what the wounds look like. It's stunningly awful. I mean, think about it.

I don't know what this woman's thinking. This registered nurse slash lawyer that somehow managed to fall up into the coroner's position. Karen Stark, you heard her voice. That's a New York psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at karenstark.com. Karen with a New York psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at KarenStark.com.

Karen with a C. I mean, you know, Cheryl McCollum, why is this woman continuing to talk? Why would she tell the dad those intimate details of the murder of his daughter? Saying, no, they're not just stab wounds. They're big, open gouges. They're more like tears inflicted by a, quote, sadistic male. Hey, Nancy. I'm Dr.

I'm not allowing her to think that something worse has happened to his daughter than anyone else. Why does he need that information? That doesn't help him. Well, Nancy, let's talk reality. Okay, go. Go, Cheryl. Let's talk reality a minute. The daddy's going to find out anyway, and he says it in one of the interviews when he talks about paying for that funeral.

He paid for that information. The funeral director knew. There were repairs that funeral director had to make. And if she was attacked, like I believe she probably was, around the face, around the throat, around the chest, he already knew that. So by her telling him the truth, I will say this, telling a family the truth is much better than telling them crap like they didn't suffer. It was quick. Well, I think they need the truth, too. But I disagree with the coroner blabbing.

Yes. That's a big issue hold on guys you're hearing Dr. Priya Banerjee board certified forensic pathologist at anchor forensic pathology.com jump in Dr. Priya yeah like first of all I've done over 150 homicides I speak to families but you have to be very judicious about what you say. You know, I think it's a very fine line. You can comment that there were severe wounds and they bled out quickly, you know, without making it more, I don't know, horrifically descriptive. I do agree that they, funeral director would have known, but I don't think it's appropriate. Like, they're not going to show a wounded body to the dad with the gashes. You know, Dr. Priya, I just got to stop you one minute, because this is giving me horrible flashbacks about my fiancé's murder.

He was shot five times, leaving the work site. He was on a construction job at lunchtime to bring everybody back soft drinks in a very remote area oh my god and i always knew that he was shot five times just like kelly gonzalez's dad knows that she was stabbed but i i don't know cheryl i hear what you're saying but i i don't know about this telling the but telling the dad that she's ripped open and open gouges, it's just, duh. It's excessive. It's excessive and unnecessary. And it really creates a very vivid picture. What does that mean, Dr. Priya, that her liver and lungs were stabbed?

What does that tell you about the wound specifically? Let me draw on your medical expertise. Yeah, so a stab wound is deeper than it is long. And so you're going deep into the body in very blood-rich organs. So they're going to bleed a lot and quickly. So, you know, it's not instantaneous, but it's quick because all that blood is going to collect in the body and possibly drain out. It's going to be a bloody knife. So that's important for blood spatter, as we talked about earlier. And so it's not, it's a very up

close and personal attack. That's the thing. It's a lot of anger, hate. Stabbing is not, you know, distant. You have to be close to the person to do it. What does that mean medically, forensically, that Keely Gonsalves was stabbed in the liver? What does that mean about the depth of the stab wounds? Yeah, I mean, they're hitting major organs. They know that if I stab her here, this is going to be a fatal wound. How deep do you have to stab someone to hit their liver? They were thin people, but at least a few inches. So these were...

Okay, and Jackie is furiously waving a note at me again. It's like we're at NASCAR. She's saying he paid for the autopsy report. I thought he paid for the autopsy report i thought he paid for the death certificate as a practice release an autopsy report in my old office uh for an open homicide no you do not that's why i was curious dave mac did he get a copy of the death certificate or the autopsy i believe that he is mistaken in his wording that he got a copy of the death certificate and then he filled in the blanks okay the death certificate is different from the autopsy very

very different explain it dr priya yeah i mean the death certificate is is a one-page sheet with lots of lines but basically it has a cause of death and the manner of death which is homicide that's it it doesn't go into the description number. I mean, the way she said it, this woman. But you know, Cheryl McCollum, back to what you said, and I'm not saying you're wrong. At the time of my fiance's murder, I was so numb. It's actually like a horrible blur, a horrible, I have just vague recollections of this moment and that moment. It's very, very vague in my mind. It was just blinded by like pain, pain. That's what I remember. Absolutely. But if the dad goes to the medical examiner and says, tell me the truth,

spare no detail. If he did that, you you know that i can understand her talking to him hey i want to make two points real quick number one if you listen to that daddy he's telling you about what he had to go through at the funeral parlor and i I'm telling you, if that director had to give them information like, we need a high collar, he knows already. And Nancy, you and I remember a detective that told the family how quick the homicide was, that their loved one didn't suffer. And then when you're in court, you're describing exactly what happened and how long that child stayed alive. You have no right. Thanks, Cheryl, for all the good memories.

But you have to tell the truth. Yes, it happened. It happened. And I asked my detective, please remove the family from the courtroom while I question the medical examiner. Did he do it? Yes, that's often the case. H-E-L-L, no, he didn't. And I lied into the medical examiner and I'm telling the jury this happened and this happened and this happened and he did it. And yeah, and the family

broke down, cried and I turned around and there they were. Thanks, Ernest. Yes, I remember it. Thank you, Cheryl, for that happy memory. But they should have been told the truth. Yes. If they had asked me, I would have told them. If they had asked me point blank, I would tell them. Otherwise, I don't want to make a victim's family feel worse than they already feel. Okay. You know what? Wait. I blame you for this, Jackie Howard.

I blame you for letting this roller coaster just fly off, fly off the rails. Okay. Back to the wounds. I'm trying to figure out what we can learn from gouges versus stab wounds versus punctures and that go all the way into the lungs and liver. I can see a stab to the chest going straight to the lungs, but going to the liver, that is a very, very deep stab wound. Okay, there's more happening. Jump in, Dale. It's a military exercise, and I've often thought that the individual had some military training. Oh my goodness. Were you in the military? No. So you're just kind of like making this up as you go? No, I'm not making it up.

I've handled cases where that's been the case. Okay. Now I'm listening. Go ahead. So it's not unusual for them to train in that manner. And, you know, there are in the prisons, people train with knives all the time in preparation for this sort of protection and behavior. So it's not unusual to have people in the culture who are really good with knives, and we're going to find that that's true here.

Much has been made about a group of students that were seen in the background on body cam footage. There's a lot of online sleuths. Hey, I'm not knocking them. I'm not knocking them at all. That have had a lot of questions about that group. Take a listen to this. Hey, Moscow police, come back here. Meanwhile, Inside Edition has obtained this body cam video

taken on the night of the murders a short distance from the house. It's one thing to drink in an apartment where no one can see you. It's another thing for us to drive by and see you guys absolutely stumbling down the road. Three freshmen were cited for underage drinking. Note the time. 3.15 a.m. Police say the murders could have been taking place at that very moment. The three were cited near the Sigma Chi fraternity where Ethan Chapin and Zana Cronodal attended a party.

Look how close it is to the murder house. As a matter of fact, you can look through the Sigma Chi window and look directly into the murder scene. That was our friend Les Trent with Inside Edition. Now listen to Crime Online. Moscow, Idaho police recently released body cam footage of plainclothes officers as they made a stop of three University of Idaho students for suspected underage drinking at about 2 50 a.m. November 13th as they were walking across a field off Taylor Avenue in between the Sigma Chi frat house and the girls rental home. If you look closely several people can be seen walking in the background of the police body cam video. It was taken near the King Road home where the students were killed in their sleep on November 13th at about the same time this body cam video was shot.

Police have previously said investigators found nothing of evidentiary value on the body cam videos, but it remains unclear whether they have identified or interviewed the people walking in the background. So far, police aren't commenting. Chris McDonough joining me, host of the interview room. Now, you indicated to me that you believe these people stumbling around did not appear to be coming from the murder scene 1122 King. Is that correct? Yes, right. It looks like they're coming from apparently there was a party at that.

You know, that was just kind of breaking up around 0300. And it looks like they're coming down Taylor Street past those officers who were sitting in that apartment complex directly across from the banfield. So the path of entry is directly up into the 1122, the target house. So that road in front of the house, those individuals are not, they do not appear to be on that particular road coming from the area. Even so, Chris McDonough, wouldn't you, don't you think it would be important to track them down? And everyone down that was at the particular party you're describing to find out what, if anything, they saw that night. Yeah, and that's 100% accurate, Nancy. But what is really interesting is there's now information floating around.

If you isolate the sound on the officer's body camera, people are saying that they're hearing things that potentially could be coming from that house such as stop you it sounds you know i was digging into it last night and i've actually asked for the body camera to hear it myself so i can isolate it uh so it it's interesting there's something going on behind that that sound that uh excuse me, the officer's voice. You can hear other things in the background, the ambient noise. And I think it's kind of like the reporter looking over his shoulder and saying, hey, that looks like a white car. I think there's going to be something behind that audio.

Wow. You know what, Cheryl McCollum, it may be nothing, but it could absolutely be something. No question about it. And I'll tell you, even if something's not there, that's important too. So if we don't hear screams, if we don't see that car, if we don't see anybody fighting or, you know, more kids walking in groups, that's important as well. When you're in any kind of search, what is there and what is not there is both critical information. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dale Carson joining us out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent, now lawyer. Dale, they've got to enhance that body cam footage as well as track down every single person they can from that party.

Anything could count. Well, that's exactly right. And you have real time footage about the time the murder may have taken place. So if you can effectively enhance it with the Bureau certainly has that capability, then you may be able to see images develop that we wouldn't otherwise know about. They may include the white car. They may include individuals. We just don't know at this point. We now learn that police are doubling back on individuals they had previously cleared. Take a listen to Captain Roger Lanier. They have re-interviewed some of the folks we've interviewed earlier in this investigation to clarify information.

Sometimes when new information comes forward, the people that we've spoken to beforehand may have new insight on that. So it does often seem like we're backtracking, but we're really just trying to get the most important details and the best timeline that we can come up with. I find that very significant, Irv Brandt, that they are doubling back on people that they had previously cleared and re-questioning them? What, if anything, do you make of it, Irv? Well, Nancy, with 30 years of investigating cases, I can tell you that the longer that an investigation goes on, the more often you do this. People, potential witnesses, potential suspects, will give more information with each interview because some people just actually remember to say things

that they didn't think of before. So it is standard the longer an investigation goes on for investigators to do this. I don't find it out of the ordinary at all. I don't either. I've got to say, Cheryl, as you well know, we would double back, or at least I would, and speak to witnesses over and over and over. And that is not schooling them about what to say on the stand. That's helping me to understand what questions I need to ask and clarify things or things

as Irv just pointed out, we didn't think of to start with. And that's true for the person talking to law enforcement, too. If you say to somebody, did you, you know, what happened that morning? And they just tell you their normal routine and what happened. But if you go back and say, did you see anything unusual days leading up to the murders? Then they may say, you know, I saw this car driving real slow a lot. So people will remember things and they will answer. And you know this better than anybody, Nancy, what you ask them. A lot of times witnesses will not answer what you don't ask. And they'll say, well, nobody ever asked me about the white van or the orange Mustang. So you have to go back. But there's another side to all of this.

Yeah. The other side to all of this is that they removed from possibility so that they can compare those two and see if there's someone who's lying. For all we know, they did, Dale. And that's a very good point. For all we know, they did. Another fact that has reared its head is the possibility that the girls were adding locks to their individual doors. Take a listen to Les Trent, Inside Edition. Did the bedroom doors of the four murdered University of Idaho students have electronic locks like this? A former tenant posted this photo and says all six bedrooms had

combination locks. It's believed the students had a lock on their door similar to this. This is a keypad lock and I'm at AAA Architectural Hardware in Manhattan with Richard Brown who is the owner. Are these things reliable? They're very reliable when they're installed properly and when they're used properly. You press the code that was pre-programmed in, push down on the lever handle, open the door and then close the door behind you. And it should be locked. Okay, let me understand. Joining me is Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. And anyone on the panel, jump in. You may have covered this on the interview room.

And Cheryl, you and I were talking about this off camera. Dave, what do we know about one of the girls in the home? Remember, there were six people, five girls that lived in the home, five. One had moved out. Her name was on the lease before the term started. She wasn't there. There were two downstairs. There were two other girls and then there was of course Ethan. So what do we know about them adding locks to their doors and did each door have a code a coded lock? What if anything do we know Dave? What we do know each door each bedroom door had a coated keypad lock. Also, we know that one week before the murders,

Zanna Cronodal's dad actually was asked by Zanna to come up and fix the lock on her door. We don't know if he fixed it by installing a new one. They haven't said. But we know that one week before the killing killing he was up there working on the lock which means it wasn't working properly a week before this all happened we know that oftentimes in situations like this where you have a number of people coming into a home that sometimes those codes the key codes for the different rooms get shared uh somebody who had been there before might have had access to that key code and was able to punch it and go in wow uh we do know as dave mack just pointed out that one of the dads had been there repairing a lock um i believe was it um mr kernodle is that what

you said yes ma'am. So Zanna needed her lock fixed. And that's critical. That's critical, Nancy, to understand. Go ahead, jump in, because I'm trying to figure out if all the bedroom doors had digital locks. Right, because obviously what that's going to tell us now is a little bit about the victimology as well as the suspectology here. Can I tell you where that information came from? We learned that a previous tenant told Fox Digital that he had lived there and he had a coded lock on his door like all the other bedrooms.

That's how we found that out. Go ahead. Well, so what it's going to also indicate for us is, you know, what's the familiarity to that house, to the suspect, you know, coming into that house? And, you know, to the point a moment ago, did that individual have access to these codes? And if so, that might give us some understanding as to why the two girls potentially on the bottom, the suspect did not have access to their rooms. Perhaps if it's a programmable lock, those numbers can be changed rapidly. I think this is a big deal. Cheryl McCollum, I know you're hearing Chris McDonough speaking

and what Dave Mack said, but the fact that each door, according to a former tenant had a digital coded lock on the door unless like so many people they put in one two three four or something like that i mean that changes things cheryl it changes everything and it also changes what i've said from the beginning that dog was put in a room oh are you back on the dog yes because we heard what you said did the killer put a dog in a room? Yes. But Nancy, but that dog would have a code as well. But we're talking about something completely different right now.

I know, but that door would have a separate code. The dog door had a code. Well, that means he knew three codes. How in the hay did this person, and yes, it's a guy, know the codes, or did he? But that's what I'm trying to say. That shrinks your suspect pool yes because again if you've got somebody that knows three bedroom i challenge you the next time you join me not to bring up the dog i'm not saying that it's not significant i'm just

saying you've told me like four times the dog was in a room i know the dog was in the room the best witness i ever put on the stand was a dog. And I wish the dog could testify. Yes, that was a great day in my life. Last thing, guys, for today, I want you to hear our 167, Captain Roger Lanier, Moscow. Finally, I just want to add that we do have a lot of information. And we are specifically keeping that information safe. We're not releasing specific details because we do not want to

compromise this investigation. It's what we must do. We owe that to the families and we owe that to the victims. We want more than just an arrest. We want a conviction. We owe that justice to Zanna, Kaylee, Madison, and Ethan. I want an arrest and I want a conviction that I can hold on appeal. But are they really keeping evidence close to the vest? Do they have evidence they're keeping close to the vest? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.