Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS: SUSPECT ARRESTED

Episode Date: December 31, 2022

An arrest is made in the murders of four University of Idaho students. 48 days after the brutal stabbing,  Bryan Kohberger, 28, was arrested early Friday morning over 2,500 miles away in Pennsylvania. Kohberger has been charged with first-degree murder and felony burglary. An extradition hearing is schedule for Tuesday.  Police have seized a white Hyundai Elantra in connection to the case.  The vehicle was found at the home of Kohberger’s parents.   Police are answered few questions about what led up to Kohberger’s arrest, saying Idaho law requires the arrest affidavit be sealed until the suspect is “physically back in Latah County” and officially charged.   Joining Nancy Grace today:  Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips,   Host of new podcast: Zone 7  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, https://www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough---law-enforcement-relations.html    Worked over 300 Homicides in 25 year career,  & Host of YouTube channel, The Interview Room.      Stephanie Pagones - Crime Reporter, Fox News Digital, Twitter: @steph_pagones  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Los Angeles is famous for the always captivating entertainment industry, some of the most famous sports teams, and incredibly expensive smoothies. But beneath the glamour, it's also a breeding ground for bizarre, historic, and unforgettable crimes. My name is Madison McGee. You might know me from my podcast Ice Cold Case, where for the last three years I've been investigating my father's murder. But now I've embedded myself into the

LA Times crime beat to bring you not only some of the juiciest cases, but what it takes to be a gritty crime reporter in a giant metropolis. From LA Times Studios comes its latest series, LA Crimes. From deep dives into the Menendez brothers to conversations about why Bravo TV seems to be

a hotbed of white color criminals, we'll cover it all. The solved, the unsolved, the love triangles gone wrong, you get the idea. Tune in every Wednesday starting May 21st, wherever you stream your podcasts. You can also watch the episodes on YouTube and Spotify. You don't want to miss this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, what we have all been waiting on, An arrest, finally an arrest in the slayings of four beautiful Idaho students found dead in their beds. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. How did it go down? Take a listen to our friends at Fox News. Brian Koberger is being held right now, just about 12 hours after his arrest early this morning. This mystery, of course, finally getting the break that we have all been waiting for as federal, state and local law enforcement descended upon this area, taking him into custody 2,500 miles away from the crime scene in Idaho.

2,500 miles away. Joining me in our all-star panel, my first is Stephanie Pagonis, crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Stephanie, what happened? 3 a.m. That's correct, Nancy. Just around 3 a.m. In fact, it might have been even a little earlier. A man named Brian Christopher Koberger was taken into custody in Albrightville, Pennsylvania. That is nearly 3,000 miles away. In fact, much more than 2,500 miles away from the crime scene here in Moscow, Idaho. Now, he remains in Pennsylvania as we speak. He is being held without bond until he can appear in court on Tuesday afternoon when he will make his extradition hearing appearance. Now, once he is in court for his extradition hearing, he will have the chance either to waive his extradition or not to waive his extradition. If he chooses to fight his extradition, this could be a little bit of a battle between prosecutors here to push for his return to Moscow.

Okay, hold on. You know what? Everybody thinks that extradition is so hard. They take about 15 minutes for a full-on extradition hearing. Let me go out to Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer joining me out of Jacksonville and former FBI agent, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at DaleCarsonLaw.com.

Dale, can we just take off your defense hat for a moment? Extradition hearing? It's not, are you guilty? Are you innocent? Have we broken any laws? Is there an illegal confession? O-H-E-L-L no. All it is, is I confirm that you are, in fact, Dale Carson. And if you won't admit you're Dale Carson, I'll just do a fingerprint

comparison right there in the courtroom. That's right. And the federal system is called an identity hearing. And you either are the person named in the warrant or you're not. So there's a federal warrant, a UFAP warrant, an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution warrant issued by the federal government. And the SOG team has been following him for maybe two weeks. The special operations group out of the Bureau tracking and watching him. It's going to be fascinating to find out what they overheard during his conversations, if it was electronically monitored as well. Okay, now wait a minute. Dale Carson, do you have reason to believe he was electronically monitored? Special operations groups do that. And if he's got a federal

warrant out for him, it's likely that they have the necessary search warrant to do those kinds of things. So let me go back to Stephanie Pagonis joining us from Fox News Digital before I go to the rest of the panel. Stephanie, I heard Dale Carson say that he had been surveilled for about two weeks. I know that he had been surveilled for four days because he up suddenly, he jumped up and left where he was in Pullman. That's near Washington State University. I guess he had what a house or an apartment there, and then he heads home to mommy's place.

So how long has it been since he left Washington State? You know, it's hard to pinpoint exactly from law enforcement. When he drove or however he got home to Pennsylvania, but I can say that just this morning, law enforcement, including Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, were at his apartment in Pullman, Washington. This is only a 21-minute drive, 11 miles from the crime scene, and it is on WSU Pullman campus. He was a graduate student at WSU Pullman. I was just there this morning where law enforcement were conducting or executing a search warrant at that apartment.

It was a much lower key scene than what we have seen at 1122 King Road, the scene of the crimes. But we could see law enforcement going in with protective gear and neighbors, I can tell you, were shocked. No one expected this from what we could tell. And frankly, many people didn't even recognize Mr. Koberger. One person said he had saw him going back and forth from the mailbox to his apartment. But otherwise, I'm hearing this is a relatively quiet neighborhood that was definitely shocked that this was happening. Let me guess, he's a loner, kept to himself, only spotted going back and forth to mailbox. This is what I know so far. I know that he's about six feet tall. He's a white male. I've heard he's got blue eyes and

brown hair. I'm looking right at him, but I can't make out his eye color. They appear to be blue. I know that he was a, quote, obsessive vegan. He is a libertarian, and he got his master's degree from what I understand at DeSales in Pennsylvania and was getting his PhD at WSU, Washington State University, about 12 miles away from the murder house. I also know that he was working on a research project in which he sent out questionnaires to criminals, violent criminals, to better understand their emotions, their thinking, and their decision making as they were committing a crime. Now, you know what? I'm not a shrink, but I can tell you this right now. A guy all wrapped up in studying the thinking and the emotions of violent criminals. Got way too wrapped up in it.

In his pictures, he looks very pale. He looks like Bundy. Okay. Yeah. As a matter of fact, he does. Joining me right now, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Okay, Cheryl, jump in.

Isn't it just what we said? Look under mommy's bed. That's where the killer will be hiding out. Absolutely. They always run to mama. What they're going to be doing right now on this guy, they're going to be looking at his online activity to see whether or not he bought that knife online, whether there's any connection with any type of writing on his academic papers. He is not going to be able to hide this fascination that he has. He's not going to be able to do it. And furthermore,

I believe in that apartment, they're going to find a lot of things written down that are going to be able to connect some dots for them. There's no doubt in my mind. Well, you know what? He seems to be very fastidious to the nth degree. The fact that he was described, what about it, Jackie? Described as obsessively vegan. Yes. And he's only seen by the neighbors going to and from the mailbox. There's no

mention. Has anybody heard about a girlfriend, an ex, a high school sweetheart, in anything? Not so far. Is it possible? He's an incel. Joining me, along with Dale Carson, Cheryl McCollum, Stephanie Pagonis, is Joe Scott Scott Morgan professor of forensics Jacksonville State University author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart okay Joe Scott we understand wait a minute whoa whoa wait hold on Joe Scott Stephanie Pagonis the white Hyundai Elantra was outside his home was it outside mommy's home or was it outside his place in Pullman and I guess his place in Pullman was a house he lived in a house he lived in the second floor apartment

of an apartment building on WSU campus and yes we are hearing from multiple reports that the Hyundai Elantra was taken from the home in Pennsylvania not Pullman mommy's home hold on I'm making a flow chart, Stephanie Begunas. Mommy's home. Who lives there? Does the mom and the dad live there? It's unclear whether mom and dad, but I do believe there is a sibling who is also listed as living there or in the same state. Now question, if there's not a mother or father there, whose home is that? I know, I've seen at least, I should say records show that a mother lives there. I just am not positive about a second parental figure. Okay, Jackie is waving at me wildly in

the background trying to tell me are you saying it's the parents home Jack? She's saying she's found it's the parents home. Be curious to find out if the mom and dad were there. I mean, what about it? Nobody thought it was odd that he came home and never went back. I'd be curious to find out if the mom and dad were there. I mean, what about it? Nobody thought it was odd that he came home and never went back. I also understand, Stephanie, did he just graduate with his PhD in December? You know, I can't say for sure. And for certain, unfortunately, I don't have that answer. But I know that he has lived in the Pullman apartment for quite some time now, at least several months from what I'm told. Now, I understood that he got his master's from DeSales University in Lehigh, Pennsylvania in criminal justice and was trying to get his doctorate degree. So if he got that in June,

and I've got May of 2022, there's no way he could be through with his doctorate degree that quickly. So he's working on his doctorate degree. Okay, Joe Scott Morgan. So the car is parked in front of mommy's house. You know, Joe Scott, you'd think a criminal justice major or criminology major would know to get rid of the car, huh? Yeah, you would think so. What's curious about this is that is it does this go to his arrogance or does it go to his carelessness? You know, he's had quite a bit of time with this vehicle since the slaughter took place. He's traveled across the country in it, Nancy, apparently. And but yet there it sits,

doesn't it? And so you're going to have connections. Nancy, that car is a rolling crime scene. And the fact... I like that, rolling crime scene. Okay, I'm stealing that. You didn't say that. I did. Rolling crime scene. Keep going. It's not copyrighted. It's all yours. And I think that that is going to be a key. And not just the physical evidence that can be found in there, Nancy. What's fascinating is this long journey that was taken across the country. You know what it's reminding me of? It's reminding me of Gabby Petito's fiance, Brian Laundrie, who leaves her body out in dispersed camping in Wyoming and then heads all the way across the country back to Florida in the car, in the van in which he likely murdered Gabby Petito.

Go ahead, Joe Scott. You know, every CCTV that he passed, every gas station that he went to, every burger joint that he stopped at. Well, not burger joints because of vegan. Wherever he went to dine, all right, to, you know, fuel himself. There's going to be an electronic signature. Either it's going to be documented vis-a-vis his phone. If he's got this thing with him, it'll be pinging a long way. Hold on, i'm getting another

banner from jackie and you know i can cut you your guy's mic but i can't cut jackie howard she's sitting right there she's holding up a sign that says fellow student tells the new york times suspect had few friends at school okay am i smelling an incel is that what i'm smelling i'm not sure but i'm getting a whiff of something. A few friends. According to the New York Times, this fellow student says, he appeared he wanted to socialize, but had made offensive remarks in the past that had left him somewhat isolated.

Offensive remarks in the past that left him isolated. What were the offensive remarks? Jackie, don't give me half of the puzzle and make me go crazy for pete's sake okay back to you joe scott what were you saying his you know his image is going to be captured the car's image the tag readers all of that stuff and this is documented all the way across the country nancy we're talking over 2 000 miles this would be know, they made a big deal. And I understand why they did it. They were saying, remember, they said they had the 24-mile loop that the cops had gone to around Moscow where they had collected the CC. Listen, in this case, we're talking about over 2,000 miles that they're going to be collecting this videography of this trip along the way.

So, yeah, there's a lot to be gleaned from this car and his movements in it. Well, Joe Scott, they're going to be looking for the blood residue in the car from the clothing he wore when he got back in the car after the flight. Is this Dale Carson? It is. Yeah, you know what, Dale Carson?

Exactly. When Joe Scott Morgan set a rolling crime scene, not just the car, but everything in that Pullman apartment. Now, Stephanie Pagonis, when I say Pullman, is it the city of Pullman? Is it the Pullman campus? What do they mean by Pullman? So this is located within the city of Pullman, but yes, it is on Washington State University Pullman campus. This is campus housing, which is typically inhabited by graduate

students, many of whom have kids or families or those who work with the university. So people were right down the hall from this guy. While I was on the phone with you, I actually just heard from Washington State University. I want to correct myself. You were correct. He had graduated just in June 2022 from DeSales, but he actually had completed his first semester as a Ph.D. student with Washington State University's criminal justice program. That was just earlier this month that he completed his first semester. Right. Was I actually right on something? I'm so happy. Yeah. Keep that clip. So he completed his first semester of his PhD. Guy's also with me, Chris McDonough,

director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. And I found him on the interview room podcast. Chris McDonough, what do you make of all this? Well, you know, Nancy, just listening. I mean, all the ideas that we've been talking about the last, you know, weeks or two on this guy, it's obvious he's an ego-driven type of killer, right? And he thought about doing this in a very cool-headed reflection idea, meaning he sat back, he processed, you know, what direction he was going to go. He obviously sounds like he had the education behind it, at least to, you know, think through some ideas. So I'm going to lean on a research that was done by Columbia University, Dr. Gary Bricado,

who he mentioned years ago, he has the largest database of mass murders in the country. And if we look at this four victims as a mass murder event, this guy was on the road to becoming a serial killer because all the indications are at this point from what I can find out is this guy had not killed before because he had a very difficult time establishing the needed relationships with other people. So that Lawner point you just made a minute ago is right on target with this guy, especially who's living with his Grace. Guys, we don't know who is living there, but it's still listed, according to Jackie, as the parents' home. So either the mom and or the dad are living there.

We understand there's a sibling as well. No word yet of any prior girlfriends or romances, no engagements, no nothing. Guys, let's take another listen to our friend Laura Engel at Fox News. The mugshot you've been seeing, 28-year-old Brian Christopher Koberger was taken into custody 3 a.m. southeast of Scranton, Pennsylvania, at a private residence on a fugitive from justice warrant. Now, there are reports that law enforcement also recovered a white vehicle. You'll remember a white Hyundai Elantra was the subject of a nationwide search after one that was spotted near the scene of the crime in Moscow, Idaho in the early morning hours of November 13th, where four University of Idaho students were found murdered inside their off-campus rental home. Now, Koberger was arraigned early this morning and sent here to the Monroe County

Correctional Facility pending extradition after. Okay, what's he charged with? Stephanie Pagonas, tell us. He is charged with four counts of felony murder, one count each for each of the four victims, of course. Then he's also charged with committing burglary, and that is, of course, for breaking into the home on November 13th, allegedly, of course. Now, question question you said

he's charged with felony murder is he charged with first degree murder or felony murder how did they phrase it Stephanie I'm sorry I misspoke there it is first degree murder um first degree murder and felony burglary thank you for calling me okay no no actually Stephanie I'm glad you did that because when this case goes to trial, I predict these are just the initial charges. I think when a grand jury hears the evidence that they're going to add felony murder to that charge, I think they're going to charge them in the alternative. Of course, Dale Carson, when you've got a murder one charge, which is premeditated and that can be the premeditation can be formed in a twinkling of a moment. The moment it takes you to pull a gun, raise a gun and pull the trigger or blink your eye. Premeditation doesn't

have a time on it. So the fact that he broke into the home and it says, of course, burglary is breaking, entering, it says entering a home with the intent to commit a felony, a crime in sight. That's burglary. And this actually states that he entered the home with the intent to commit murder, which means he didn't try to sex assault anybody. He did not try to take anything. He went in the home with the intent to commit a murder. I think, of course, at trial, Dale Carson, they could put it to the jury, a felony murder as well, but they may go ahead and charge felony murder with the underlying felony being burglary. What about that, Dale Carson? Then you don't have to even prove intent. They could certainly do that. You know, when he's charged with the murder, clearly it was organized. Clearly it was planned. They're not going to have any problem with that.

My biggest curiosity is, did he confess? He's been interviewed by FBI. Oh, speaking of that, I'm glad you said that. Chris McDonough, we were told that upon his arrest, he said, has anybody else been charged? Has anybody else been arrested? That tells me it's a sort of an admission, an admission of sorts. But is that possible? There's another perp, Chris? Well, you know, that's an interesting comment, right, Nancy? I mean, is he saying that for, again, that ego-driven side of things?

You know, like Dennis Rader, right? BTK back in the day where he would say, you know, every job. So that may be an insult to his ego by making that comment. If they would have responded, yeah yeah there are other people that we're looking at uh so it's going to be interesting to see how it unfolds now listen to this i want everybody to weigh in on this remember we're not having high tea at windsor castle what we understand is cops still searching for idaho suspect's weapon he's charged with four counts of murder they traced his white hy Hyundai to his parents' Pennsylvania address,

and they cross-matched DNA found at the crime scene. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, jump in. Well, that's outstanding. So what that means is you've got DNA in one spot and DNA in another spot, and it matches, and you're saying, okay, so this person went from A to B to C areas in that home and that cannot be overstated. You know, that's 100%. There's not going to be another way that happened except that killer. So here's the- No, no.

Okay, slow it down. Slow it. Because if he's been in that apartment partying before, his DNA could be there. Oh, please. Please stop. He only goes to the mailbox and back. He has not been in the house partying. Just stop right there. This ain't a party guy.

I mean, look at him. Look at his mugshot. He looks scary, freaky. I could just see these eyes, Cheryl McCollum, staring in the window at me, changing clothes. Cheryl, are you there? Jump in. And here's the thing, Nancy. They're obviously going to try to establish, and they probably asked him the second question,

have you ever been in this house? He probably either said no or he had whatever reason he had to be in this house before. Then where in this house? He probably either said no, or he had whatever reason. Then where in the house did you go? Chances are he had a reason to go to the third floor. He had no reason to touch a bedspread. He had no reason to touch a windowsill. He had no reason to touch the sliding glass door and the front door. He's going to have a hard time explaining that.

And I'll tell you something else. It's going to be in that car. Think O.J. Simpson. I can't hear you. What's going to be in the car? Think about O.J. Simpson, that one drop of blood on the outside of the Bronco that had more than one victim's blood swirled in it. That's going to be key. There's no way he clicked that call well enough.

Not possible. Yeah, if there's a transfer, that's 100%. I agree with that 1,000%. If they have the victim's blood anywhere in that guy's car, he's toast. He's toast. Yeah, and the reality is, of course, Joe Scott Morgan, that there's no way unless he bathed his car in black swan muriatic acid, there's no way he's going to get rid of DNA.

Plus, he can't see all the DNA. But this guy is a criminologist. He's got his master's degree for Pete's sake. Nancy, let me jump in here, please, about that and just put people's mind at ease. I can memorize the rules of cricket, but I couldn't officiate a game. He can study things all he wants to, but when he tries to put something in action, that's a different ballgame. You've got somebody stabbing, and one person might wake up, one person might fight you.

He's never experienced that type of incident. There's no way he can prepare for that from a textbook. Well, we don't know that he hadn't killed others. Guys, can I get back to my original question? Have I ever cut Dale Carson's mic in life? Because it's coming. It's coming. Chris McDonough, help me here. Anybody help me. Because what I understand is officers traced the white Hyundai to his mommy's address in Pennsylvania. Then they cross match his DNA found at the scene. So his DNA is found at the scene. I wonder, Chris McDonough, how they isolated his DNA from all the other DNA they found at the party house.

Unless what Cheryl is saying is correct, that it was in places it shouldn't have been, like in one of the murder beds, in the second murder bed, maybe within the blood. What do you make of it, Chris? Yeah, I think there's all of those possibilities and that it could be in cast off of some sort if there was a struggle, which we know there were defensive wounds from the victim. So the possibility of the suspect cutting himself is high on the list. And so that cross mixture could be separated pretty easily. And then immediately they can do what they call an Andy test, A-N-D-I. and that is a rapid DNA test that immediately can identify this guy,

not necessarily who he is, but his DNA makeup. And then when they come across like the car, or I had a case one time where the suspect put the knife back in his pocket and we found blood inside of the pocket of the suspect's pants. So blood if it's the dna that they're looking for is pretty easy to get or they followed him and they picked up a cup the old remember that nancy back in the day you pick up a cup oh gosh you pick up a cigarette and bingo you're in town so yeah i was wondering do you think possibly Joe Scott Morgan, that's why they were surveilling him to catch him, throw out a pizza box or toss away fast food so they could get DNA?

Yeah, for all the care that a wannabe criminologist might have, he got stupid. I think they've had a team sitting on this guy. They being the feds, more than likely, they've been watching him very closely. And he got stupid. He cast something off. And as you know, as an attorney, once you throw it in the trash, it's no longer yours. So they can go collect it. And it's source DNA. It comes directly from him. So back to what the other guests have mentioned, this unknown that would have been indwelling at the scene and remember they said they identified his dna there if he injured himself or if it was sourced from

another fluid from his body that originated from him then they can compare those two with this evidence this dna this rich dna that they're why do you say why do you talk like that? Another DNA source that originated from him. Let's see, there's blood, there's saliva, and there's sperm. It's got to be one of those three, right? Yes. Yeah. Or sweat as well. And keep in mind, again, a lot has been made over the fact that this is a sharp force injury case. He would have had to have used this knife over and over and over again. By the time you get to the fourth person, you're going to be perspiring as well. So I think that might also be a... Well, remember, there was sweat DNA found in Stephen Avery's car. The guy who murdered Teresa

Hollenbeck, the amateur photographer. Well, actually a pro photographer. And it was found, I think, on the steering wheel of her car which was hidden at the edge of his property and if you don't know those names you would know the name making a murderer by um was it hbo or netflix yeah who seemingly tried to make stephen avery appear innocent um yeah and swept so how do you think they isolated his DNA? Did you say, Joe Scott, are you going along with Cheryl McCollum's theory? Yeah, yeah, I am actually. I think she's right on the money with this. It would be a commingled, which just means that it's mixed together with everything else. This scene is going to be

evidence rich relative to the victims. There's a lot of blood shedding. You're going to have the co-mingling. And I've mentioned this a couple of times over the weeks where you're going from body to body to body. So you're co-mingling DNA from victim a with B with C with D, and then you throw his into the mix. They can identify those very specifically, those four victims.

And there's also touch DNA that's at the scene. Remember, they keep using this term party house, party house. There's a lot of DNA there from other people. So they're having to go through this task of eliminating everybody. They've isolated all of these unknowns. Maybe his was appearing in various sites, you know, from all over these rooms and maybe from the bodies themselves. And so he did something to screw this up where he cast something off. They were able to capture this and compare. And then it's it's academic at that point. It's not a big a big ask at that point to try to identify somebody. Just want to remind everybody that Idaho does have the death penalty.

Jackie, I'm pretty sure it's lethal, death by needle. But I want to go to this thought. Fry refuses to rule out the possibility of an accomplice. You know, I've never bought into the accomplice theory in this case. Who would go along with the murders of four people and never say a word or screw up and get caught? Plus one weapon we think we should use. Jump in. Sorry, Nancy. Well, you know, what's interesting to that point is just earlier today, I'd say, you know, just a matter of hours ago, Chief James Fry from Moscow

PD had the chance to say they have captured the only suspect they think they need. He was specifically asked if he thought anyone else was potentially wanted in this case, and he did not respond to the question. He did not answer the question directly. All he said was he thinks that he has captured someone who has committed these crimes. Now, police have said, even in the press release announcing this conference today, that this is an ongoing case, but they have not said case but they have not said and they have not said that they have captured everyone they need so far which i did find interesting during the press conference yeah his exact words we have an individual in custody who committed these horrible crimes he

did not say it was the only individuals interesting now let's figure this out. The murders occurred November 13. He's arrested 48 days later. Do you believe that any scratches or injuries he sustained during a potential struggle would have faded and gone away by now? Because I do. Unless it's a knife cut. Unless it's a what? A knife cut. A knife cut. Okay. All right. We know the extradition will most likely be a very quick procedure and he will be on his way back to Idaho at that time. We understand that the arrest warrant and the supporting affidavit will be unsealed and we can learn more. We know this guy has no prior arrest, which I believe all of us predicted a while back, or he would have already been matched to the DNA databank.

What can you tell me about a court order, Stephanie Pagonis, a court order regarding cleaning out the house. I'm so happy you asked, Nancy, because I was actually going to interject earlier about this. Yes, so a cleaning crew, a professional cleaning crew hired by law enforcement all but entered the crime scene this morning. They arrived at the home, two trucks and a trailer, prepared to enter the home and begin to clean it of any fire hazards and chemicals that were used in the process of gathering evidence. But before they could even really make any headway with this, they received what was called a legal request by the court to halt any processes there. so they basically got there um all but began before they were told to call it off for the time being so the home remains an active crime scene in the custody of moscow

police department for the time being well why would they have released it if they think they need they still need to get evidence it's an excellent question and one that many people have asked about i believe even joseph sc Joseph Scott Morgan and I had been discussing this just yesterday. Can I just throw in before we get carried away on the court order? You do know that according to sources, this guy forced his parents to buy knee pots and pans, which had never touched meat. Let that soak in for a moment he's so

against killing animals but yet he slaughtered four beautiful university students but Nancy talked about from the beginning he's there I was just wondering how long it was going to take you to bring up the dog, Cheryl, because that's been your focus from the very beginning, spirit dog. It's been a few months because, again, you know people. You can tell them a story and you can tell them, hey, I worked this homicide and this happened to that person and then this happened to the dog. And they will react more about what harm came to the dog. I get it it i understand that heartstring being pulled for an animal but what i'm saying is when you've got somebody that can

slaughter four people but not harm the animal that tells you about this person and again we're finding out he's against any kind of animal cruelty. Well, it checks out. But can I say one more thing about his academic prowess? Again, if you were the prosecutor on this case, I can see you right now in court, Nancy, saying this person is a trained professional. He was at the PHB level with criminal justice and criminology, yet for 48 days, he never contacted law enforcement about his car being in the area.

Not once. Yeah. Go ahead, jump in. You know, to dovetail on Cheryl's thought is this guy enjoyed striking fear, not only in the community, but women as a whole. And, you know, I don't think it's over for him. I think the court proceeding, he's going to eat it up. And he's, you know, because he's sitting back watching, you know, a lot of, I think what is being said, if he has access, obviously to

the media, which he probably does. Because I think that question that you asked earlier, Nancy, is indicative of the way he's thinking, meaning, are there other people arrested? I think that thought process can go into, and this is my own opinion, his ego and or an accessory after the fact. Somebody that loaned him the car, they may have information, that type of deal. But I still believe that he's the lone suspect in this incident. And, you know, I think he's going to enjoy every piece of this going forward, because he's getting a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I'm still stymied at this chilling survey created by Koberger asking criminals how they felt

while they committed their crimes. I mean... Is he doing his own research, right? Was he doing his own research? He didn't do it himself. Y'all have poured him. He gets off on it.

Anybody that can talk to him about a crime and tell me what you feel right before what did you feel during what did you feel after that incites him crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now, we've been told that he had a, quote, quiet, blank stare when he was arrested by local cops and the FBI on Friday morning. I've seen defendants like that. I've seen killers like that. I don't know what exactly it depicts. Guys, take a listen again to our friend Laura Engel at Fox News. So many questions still unanswered that we hope to get. You know,

what connects this suspect to the victims? What was the motive? Was there possible DNA evidence that connects them to the crime? And of course, the location of the murder weapon. A source tells us that Koberger is a student at Washington State University in Pullman, and that's just about 15 minutes away from the scene of the crime. He was pursuing a master's in criminal justice. We know he is from Pennsylvania, from what we've been told, and lived in Washington State. We have reached out to numerous family members here with no response back so far.

A search of his Washington State apartment was conducted earlier today after a search warrant was served. No word on what was removed or sought in his apartment. And taking a look at more information on Kohler, interesting, Kohlberger, he had a birthday recently, turning 28 years old. It would have been about one week after these murders occurred.

Now, we know his sister, Melissa, is a mental health nurse in New Jersey. She specializes in, quote, trauma and emotion regulation. I wonder why that is her chosen field. We know his dad filed for bankruptcy a really long time ago in 2010. What more do we know? He completed a bachelor's degree in 2020, a master's degree in 2022. I know he's attending, had attended a Catholic school. Moscow cops have been hunting this exact vehicle in the last weeks in connection with the killings, and they found it. What more do we know? Stephanie Pagones, it was 3 a.m., or you say a little earlier, when a SWAT team swarmed on his parents' home in Pennsylvania, Scranton, Pennsylvania.

What more do we know? You know, unfortunately, Nancy, not much beyond what you have already shared. And police are citing Idaho laws for the reason why they can't share anything. I asked Chief Fry earlier today if he could even tell us how long police might have had their eyes on him and if there were any tips and if so how many that related directly to Mr. Koberger. But right now police are staying quiet and they are saying as soon as the as soon as the affidavit is available it will be in court records but we should not expect that until at least his extradition hearing on Tuesday. So guys let's figure out had he targeted one of the victims?

He only lived about 12 miles away from the party house. What do you make of it, Dale Carson? Well, I think, as you know, that he surveilled that house for an extended period of time. And it may have been the one victim's departure that precipitated or triggered his conduct. The question I have is, how did he monitor those behaviors? And were there wires, illegal overhear mics in the rooms? You know, today you can produce those that don't give a signal unless you turn them on. They're very difficult to find. And that's why it always upset me that they would turn over the house without thoroughly going through it in a way that would satisfy me, at least, that there weren't other mechanisms involved here that allowed him to do this horrible crime.

Yeah. Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation. You can find him at the interview room on YouTube. Chris, I'm just wondering, I mean, we've all agreed that this was targeted. Now that could mean anything from following them home from class, meeting them at a bar, walking by their house one day. It could mean anything. He lived close enough that he could surveil them anytime he wanted to. What do you think, Chris McDonough? Yeah, Nancy, so I think he was methodically monitoring these victims some way, shape or another in terms of if it's one or if it's multiple, and that there's something we don't know, obviously, about his motive in relationship to his ego that has driven him to such hatred. And I would submit that that hatred was pointed specifically at the women. And that Ethan found himself in a very wrong place at the wrong time.

And I don't think the suspect anticipated him being there. So, you know, I think this guy is not only driven by this anger towards women, but again, I'm going to go back to this thought that he's not done. He's going to keep driving the court system because it's continually shedding, you know, something that he's been missing in his life for quite some time that's been driving his ego. So there's a wound to his ego somewhere in this whole process. And him to sneak up like this without a sexual component, that means he really is much more dangerous. And I'm glad they caught him. Why do you say he's more dangerous? Because there was not a sex attack?

Well, because he takes it, you know, he treated this event like it's a major event in our lives, right? Like we're planning a wedding or we're planning a graduation. Well, he was planning this mass murder and he was very methodical in doing it, evident of the fact that it's taken the time that it's taken for him to come to the surface. Wow. Okay, sure. I'm going to call him more. They targeted. Oh, I don't think there was any question about that. That house, the way it sat in that little cul-de-sac area, you had to know that house. You had to know how to get to it. It wasn't just an easy in and out exit. And again, most people, men specifically, they do not make any crime more difficult. They don't put things in their path. So I believe that he had a watch area, which was up on that hill where he could sit and watch how they came and

went. I think that he understood the day he was going to do it, the time he was going to do it. I think it was all planned out. And again, I think there's going to be evidence of that either in an online type manifesto or somewhere in that apartment where he was keeping almost like a journal. I think that's very possible. What about it, Joe Scott Morgan? He has been watching them. And this little town is not someplace you wind up by accident. And I've held that he would have had a familiarity with it, may not have ever been in the home.

But it's a cul-de-sac, essentially. You can make a round and come back out, but there's only one way out in a car. It's a dead end. It's not a location that you're just going to happen upon. You have to be going there to get there. And he, for some reason, one of these women, one of these three women drew his attention. I think one of the really kind of interesting pieces to all of this,

Nancy, is that the people downstairs survived and didn't survive. They had no indication, allegedly, that anything was going on. Why these four? Why these four on the second and the third floor? And I know that that can be easily, you know, you can say, well, he entered on the second floor, but if he had been surveilling the location, wouldn't he have had an indication that other people lived in the house? Did he make his way down there? Is there evidence that he came down the staircase? Maybe he touched the doorknobs on their doors or whatever the case might be. I don't know. I think that that's kind of an interesting piece to this. What was so attractive to him about these three victims?

And one of the piece here that that's really kind of chilling to me that will always stick with me about this case is that TikTok video that those young ladies made. It was a real intimate look into that environment where they're imitating one another, they're dancing about, and it was done in fun. But if you're on the outside looking in, and he had a view into there, the whole world did, of what their life looked like, this kitchen area, the commons area, he could see the stairwells in there. You could even see that big bank of windows where the sliders were. And for me, that was a real chilling point in this whole case. I'm going to be interested to see what his internet activity is. If for me, that was a real chilling point in this whole case. I'm going to be interested to see what his internet activity is, if he had, you know, kind of been watching them vis-a-vis this.

Okay, Stephanie Pagonis, what are we leaving out? You know, Nancy, I think there's still so much more to come. I think really the first, the first trove, if you may, the first treasure trove might come as soon as Tuesday when we finally have a better idea from a probable cause affidavit. I think there is so much that is currently being left out simply because we're not being told. But I do think now that this man has been arrested and his name is out there, we will most certainly begin to hear more about him, what he's done, how he might have made people feel or what they might have witnessed from him. I think this is only just the beginning. Oh, yes, not wash in the dishwasher with baking heat cycles, but get rid of pots and pans that had ever cooked meat

for him to use those pots and pans. If he was that fastidious about pots of hands, this was preplanned and he has left a trail. As we speak, a team of technicians and experts combing through his Pullman apartment and car. God help them. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye. Los Angeles is famous for the always captivating entertainment industry, some of the most famous sports teams, and incredibly expensive smoothies. But beneath the glamour, it's also a breeding ground for bizarre, historic, and unforgettable crimes. My name is Madison McGee. You might know me from my podcast, Ice Cold Case,

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